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    JoeCanada76's Avatar
    JoeCanada76 Posts: 6,669, Reputation: 1707
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    #1

    Dec 18, 2005, 05:57 AM
    Canadian politics!
    We are coming to an election in the new year. We have had 12 years of liberal rule which I do realize may be good for the finances of Canada, but in whole is not good for morality of our country, or the safety of our country. The liberal government has promised many things and never delivered, they have been enshrouded in scams and scandels yet the polls still support this. How can this be. Why are people so afraid of kicking out government when they do not deliver when they stole much of the tax payers money for buying peoples votes. How do these guys get a way with all of this. Liberal party is painting the concervative party as the big scary guy that wants to take all the rights away of the gays and lesbians. I do believe personally though that is one of the issues that I think and personally feel that traditional marriage, man and women should be upheld. To many people see this one issue and I guess our country has many people who have decided to live that lifestyle and have turned away from the conservatives. So there you go. Conservatives have another problem because they are pro american, and they want to work well with our neighbours in the south, but the liberals are trying to paint the conservatives in the same pod as the american government which is seen as scary because most canadians do not agree with the american government and his policies.

    I know polls can change and There have been surprised landslide losses for people who they thought were going to win, but the way it is looking is like there will be almost tied. Liberals and conservatives. I also think we have too many possible parties. Liberals, conservatives, NDP, Bloc, and Green party. I also wish that if conservatives win that they will adopt an american style rules for governing, example having a limit of how many times a certain person can run and lead a country.

    What do you think about this and do any of you have any ideas.
    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,929, Reputation: 674
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    #2

    Dec 18, 2005, 07:03 AM
    Politics
    Hi,
    Here in the United States, we have the same problems!
    The only way anything will change, is if a great majority of people vote.
    Major changes in American Government occur when a hugh voter turnout happens. This only happens when things really get bad, and the majority finally speak their minds. Takes awhile.
    As far as limited terms for those in government, the Congress of the US is not about to vote themselves out of office! Some have been there 200 years (just kidding) and don't want to leave. Some retire there, when they are 80 yrs old. It's been talked about here, but nothing ever happens. Most offices held in Congress have no limits in years. The President of the US is limited to 8 years. Even our highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, has members that stay there for a lifetime... that, too, needs changing.
    The only hope for those of us who do not agree with the way this great Nation of ours has been heading for the last many years, is to vote in elections, and know what the elected officials stand for. Even that sometimes doesn't help, cause most lie about anything, just to stay in office.
    That's my "two cents" worth, and we all know what two cents will buy nowadays!
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #3

    Dec 18, 2005, 07:59 AM
    The way it works for me may be the same it works for others: I'm always at odds with what the local candidate can do for our region and what the federal party as a whole can do for the country. Of course then you have the other side of the coin, is the other party any better. The Conservatives in my province have had their fair share of badly resolved issues. The sponsorship scandal and the cronyism(sp?) was quite nasty I agree but it's so hard to find politicians who are not jaded and actually do what's right for the people versus lining their and their friend's pockets. While we're at it we need to have a good hard look at the usefullness of our so-called senators (remember that guy who spent his time in Mexico).

    Ok, there, I'm done. :)
    JoeCanada76's Avatar
    JoeCanada76 Posts: 6,669, Reputation: 1707
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    #4

    Dec 18, 2005, 08:23 AM
    You know what we need. When we have an election we vote for who we want as a leader and that is it. Then when its time to vote regional we vote regional for the people that would represent our own communities. There are many flaws.

    Maybe a new government could start the process of changing that?
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #5

    Dec 18, 2005, 11:30 AM
    Well I don't really trust any of them, no matter what party they belong to. They've all made good promises if they are to be elected, but who knows if they will follow through. Stephen Harper has made some good promises as well, but honestly, he gives me the CREEPS! I wish Peter McKay was the leader of the Conservative Party, he seems like a more "normal" and likeable person. I agree we need a new government, but I wish there was an alternative to the "new Conservative Party". They are NOT the old PC party... I mean if Joe Clark decided to leave them, they can't be! They are just the Alliance Party under a different name, and I'm afraid of them and what they will do. I think that's why people don't want them in power. Plus I'm worried that Stephen Harper will attack gay rights and maybe even women's rights. I think Canada is very progressive in both areas and that it should remain that way.

    That being said, I will probably vote NDP again. I'm not crazy for Jack Layton either, but he's the only one who hasn't been "dirty" in my opinion, plus my leanings tend to be towards the left anyhow. Like NeedKarma said, the conservatives don't have a perfect track record, either. In my province, Saskatchewan, the conservative government of Grant Devine bankrupted the province, gave money illegally to all these high officials, cut education spending and wrecked many of our social programs. Social assistance to the poor has not been increased since the 80s, partially because of the new system formed under Devine.

    My ideal situation, if there can be such a thing in this current state of affairs, is to see a very lean Conservative minority government, with the NDP as the opposition. That way the Conservatives won't have any real power for change, the Liberals will get what's coming to them, and the NDP can have more of a voice. Problem is, I don't think that will happen, especially with Quebec and the Bloc (actually I like Duseppe, I just wish he belonged to a different party!). But I guess we will have to wait until January to see...

    Thanks JesusHelper for starting this thread... I'm been dying to talk about this, but didn't figure there were enough Canadians on the board. :)
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #6

    Dec 18, 2005, 11:36 AM
    Oh and JesusHelper I agree it would be good to be able to vote regionally for a national election (I think that's what you were saying? ) But I'm not sure that could ever happen, plus there would be flaws in that kind of voting as well. I would like to see every vote count, however. In my riding, the votes were split pretty much 3 ways between 3 candidates, and the winner only won by a few hundred votes. It's sad that all those thousands of votes by others were basically just "wasted"...

    Ugh it's all so complicated... maybe I should get my friend to come on here and say something, haha. He works for Veteran's Affairs in Ottawa and even he isn't sure how to vote...
    CaptainForest's Avatar
    CaptainForest Posts: 3,645, Reputation: 393
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    #7

    Dec 18, 2005, 01:47 PM
    I love politics.

    NDP? I liked Jack but they don't have a plan for health care. Did anyone see how Jack dogged the questions in the debate the other night? The nurse asked for specifics and Harper, Martin and Duceppe gave them but Jack didn't.

    Liberal? Corrupt to the bone. Paul Martin makes me sick. He would do anything to stay in power (remember sending those troops to that African country in May to try and buy David Kilgor's vote?)\

    Conservatives? Too many people see Harper as the Cdn Alliance leader. If they were going to be a new party, then they should have gotten a new leader. I liked the PC Government, but the new Conservative government seems to far to the right for my liking. Mainly on social views. Most of their economic policies I agree with (except I favour a reduction in personal income tax over the GST).

    Bloc? Those separatists... and I don't live in Quebec. But I agree with orange's assessment of Duceppe. He is a great guy and I would love to see him in power (that is, if he was a federalist).

    What I want to see is a Conservative minority govt. I think that would be the best. Frankly, both Liberals and Conservatives need new leaders.

    Political Reform:
    - Why bother to elect the Senate? Why not just eliminate it all together?
    - Limit to how long a PM can be in office? I don't like that at all. We shouldn't have to kick out a good leader just because his time is up.
    - I do think that we should elect our GG though based on an overall popular vote of the country, but leave the rest of the system alone.
    - We also need fixed election dates like we finally have here in Ontario and out in BC which they have had for 5 yrs.

    You might ask why I am against proportional representation? That is because in our current system, each riding elects one individual to represent them in Ottawa. And I don't agree with what orange said about the wasted votes. If I vote for someone, and that candidate doesn't win, I don't view that as a wasted vote. Voting is something that we all should do, as a way of showing how we enjoy our democratic rights.

    John Tory for 2007!! Dalton McGinty and his lying Liberal ways will be gone.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #8

    Dec 18, 2005, 04:45 PM
    Hey some great ideas there, Captain Forest! I like the idea of fixed election dates and also I never thought of each party getting a new leader, but yeah that would be great!
    JoeCanada76's Avatar
    JoeCanada76 Posts: 6,669, Reputation: 1707
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    #9

    Dec 18, 2005, 06:17 PM
    I actually like Duceppe as well he sounds like very smart. He makes a lot of sense. He does not talk any nonsense and straight with the facts. Too bad he was a separatist because if he was not I would prefer to vote for him.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #10

    Dec 18, 2005, 06:37 PM
    Yeah Duceppe is my favorite of the four. He seems honest and straighforward as you say. I would vote for him if he belonged to any other party but the Bloc. And if I lived in Quebec I'd probably vote for the Bloc anyway.
    Tark's Avatar
    Tark Posts: 6, Reputation: 2
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    #11

    Dec 18, 2005, 06:55 PM
    From what you wrote about the Conservative party it sounds like the worse of the two.
    We have had a Liberal ( read Conservative ) government in Australia since 1996.
    They are pro-American and discriminate against people of a different sexuality. They have also been embroiled in scandal, but not as severe as your government.

    The problem right around the western world is that people tend to change their vote only when the economy is in downturn. In other words, they'll think about their financial security above all else.
    Ultra-capitalism has made people a selfish lot.
    It doesn't seem anything can rock a government; as long as people are making money that's all that seems to matter.

    By the way, the more political parties the better. The major parties have minor differences but at the end of the day all they do is pander to the moronic middle ground
    CaptainForest's Avatar
    CaptainForest Posts: 3,645, Reputation: 393
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    #12

    Dec 18, 2005, 09:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tark
    The problem right around the western world is that people tend to change their vote only when the economy is in downturn.
    That is so true. That is why the Liberal government will probably win another minority government, because the Cdn economy isn't that bad.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #13

    Jan 3, 2006, 08:06 AM
    So what do all my fellow Canadians think about this new Liberal scandal? Personally I'm disgusted. It won't change the way I vote, because I'm still voting NDP (they have a good chance to win in my riding). However, Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party is looking better and better to me all the time, at least for a minority government.
    CaptainForest's Avatar
    CaptainForest Posts: 3,645, Reputation: 393
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    #14

    Jan 3, 2006, 01:56 PM
    Yes, a Harper minority would be the best outcome.

    The new Liberal scandal? What else is new? Between the Mint fiasco, the Belinda defection, they are just plagued with problems.

    But how is this a new scandal? There was talk about the Goodale leak back on Nov 24 (the day after he made his announcement). To be fair to the Minister, I am sure that HE didnít do the leaking. It was probably someone in his staff. Although, he's a politician, and I really donít trust any of them.

    Harperís plan for that Arctic is a good one. He proposes we buy an ice breaker!! Itís a sad state of affairs when we in Canada donít have any ice breakers for any of our 40 yr old British subs.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #15

    Jan 3, 2006, 06:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainForest
    But how is this a new scandal? There was talk about the Goodale leak back on Nov 24 (the day after he made his announcement).
    Oh LOL I guess it's just new to me, then. I only heard about it today. :p

    Well I hope Stephen Harper is a good prime minister. Actually it won't take much for him to be better than the Liberals though LOL.
    mrs.pennell's Avatar
    mrs.pennell Posts: 132, Reputation: 21
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    #16

    Jan 3, 2006, 09:50 PM
    Steven Harper scares me
    I fear for Canada if Steven Harper becomes our Prime Minister. His standpoint on women's rights, gay marriage and the health care system are very frightening. I believe he would have Canada modelled 100% around the U.S. (This is NOT to offend our American friends! ) We are lucky in Canada to be able to seek medical attention immediately without worrying about the financial repercussions. I live in Newfoundland where there is a very high rate of unemployment and I worry about the people who could not afford to seek medical attention. I imagine a whole province full of people who can not afford treatment for cancer, or AIDS or MS. It is a bleak picture. And don't get me started on women's rights, or gay marriage! I also fear Stephen Harper is a "true politician"... he makes the promise of cutting the GST... by 2011... that would be his SECOND term! Whose to say he will even get a second term. What is going to do for us NOW, not five years from now. I realize that the Liberals have made some pretty big mistakes in the past couple of years but at least they have a vision for Canada that is still Canadian. If I wanted to live in the U.S. I'd have moved there years ago. At least they have practice at it! As my mother likes to say, "Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't!" To that I say, "I'm with you, Mom!!"

    Miz Pen:D
    CaptainForest's Avatar
    CaptainForest Posts: 3,645, Reputation: 393
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    #17

    Jan 3, 2006, 10:03 PM
    Mrs. Pennell, I think you are confused about a few of Harper issues.

    GST
    He said he would cut the GST to 6% immediately (from the current 7) and then by 2011, it would be reduced to 5%. Do you believe him? Didn't Jean Chretein and the Liberals promise to eliminate it back in 1993? They are all liars.

    WOMANíS RIGHTS
    What are you afraid of on this? I know Harper has said he will not bring back the abortion debate, so I am confused as to what else you could be referring to.

    HEALTH CARE
    Harper has said he supports public health. And I agree with you, we do need public health care. But let's not kid ourselves. Our free health care system is a joke and it needs to be fixed. Or at least a 2 tier system. My grandmother waited over a year for her knee surgery in constant pain, that is disgusting under any circumstance.

    INCOME TRUSTS
    Have you heard about this latest Liberal scandal?

    If you donít want to vote for Harper, then you should consider Jack Layton and the NDP. At least Jack is somewhat more honest than Paul Martin.
    mrs.pennell's Avatar
    mrs.pennell Posts: 132, Reputation: 21
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    #18

    Jan 3, 2006, 10:18 PM
    Captain Forest,

    Thanks for clearing up some of my misconceptions. You have certainly given me something to think about.

    What do you propose as an alternative to our current health care situation. I would be interested to know your ideas on this. I remember a time when MCP covered eye exams in my province. Now there is a fee for this service which many people cannot afford. I would hate to think that this would become a common issue, especially when many many people do not have any health insurance.

    I watched the leadership debate and was, frankly, unimpressed by all candidates. Do you believe Stephen Harper to be the BEST choice or the lesser of two evils? This is how I feel about Paul Martin... I certainly don't entertain any fantasies about him being the BEST choice for our country but I am more comfortable with him then Harper. I will, however, at your prompting, do some more research about both candidates.

    Thanks for your interesting points!
    mrs.pennell's Avatar
    mrs.pennell Posts: 132, Reputation: 21
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    #19

    Jan 3, 2006, 10:29 PM
    I agree with your earlier posting, Captain Forest. I believe the Conservatives have gone too far to the right. I would be much more likely to vote for them had they not gone it that direction. As a provincial government, they are doing good things for Newfoundland. Too bad really...
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #20

    Jan 4, 2006, 10:21 AM
    Well, as I've stated before, I'm a staunch NDP, even leaning towards the Green Party, but I will vote NDP because they have a good chance in this riding.

    Stephen Harper has always kind of creeped me out, but he's creeping me out less since Christmas for some reason... and now Paul Martin is starting to creep me out, haha. I have a feeling Harper will definitely be prime minister, and I'm relieved that I feel okay about that. I really hope though that he will not do anything harmful to Canada, as far as human rights issues and medicare go especially. I'm not so against him because he's conservative (my father was a PC conservative), but because he's a former member of the Alliance Party and we had a LOT of Alliance Party people here in my city and THEY are SCARY!! Anti-gay, pro-life, Christian prayer in public schools... were some the platforms of the local alliance leader as I recall. I'm not saying I'm against all those issues necessarily, but I believe strongly in the separation of church and government. And anytime anyone in the government talks about "family values" it bothers me. Like whose family values are they talking about? Their own, obviously, and their own personal views shouldn't be made into public policy.

    Mrs. Pennell, you don't have to worry about the abortion issue with Stephen Harper, like CaptainForest said, he stated that he was not going to touch the issue. And even if he tried, he wouldn't get very far. There would be a huge outcry in the country if it was made illegal again, and I'm sure he knows that.

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