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    hobbzilla's Avatar
    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #1

    Apr 17, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Remodel - extend shower into closet
    I am remodling my master bath and want to extend my shower into my master closet.

    Code:
    FROM:
    
          OUTSIDE  
    __________________________ 
      |      |   | /    \ ||##|
    G |      |:o |( tub  )||()|
    A |      |___|:\____/ ||  |
    R |     /    T--------T|/ |
    A |      |              __|
    G | mst  |__            /
    E | clst |. |           \
      |      |()|         
      |      |. |_______ / \
      |      |\     .().|
    HW|______|!\________|
    ()|WASHDRY|
      |       |
     /       /
    __|_______|
    
    TO:
    
          OUTSIDE  
    __________________________ 
      | |        | /    \ ||##|
    G | |:     o |( tub  )||()|
    A | |________|:\____/ ||  |
    R |     /    T--------T|/ |
    A |      |              __|
    G | mst  |__            /
    E | clst |. |           \
      |      |()|         
      |      |. |_______ / \
      |      |\     .().|
    HW|______|!\________|
    ()|WASHDRY|
      |       |
     /       /
    __|_______|
    In side the closet, I have already removed the drywall to reveal the supply plumbing:


    Code:
        shower
         head
         || 
         ||
         ||
        {vlv}
        || ||
        || || 
      __|| ||_
     /__ | |__\
    //  || || \\
    ||  || || ||
    ||  || || ||
    ||  H   C ||
    --------------
    SLAB SLAB SLAB
    I can only assume the two outside pipes go back down into the slab to make the runs to the tub. I can also assume that the tub has a similar offshoot on the cold to service the commode.

    Is it possible/feasible/cost effective to break up a small section of the slab to relocate the 2 pipes for the run to the shower into the closet 3-4 feet? Or is it cheaper/easier/better to just run all new lines using the exterior garage wall into the closet? My main reason for thinking it is better to just go backwards was that I was not planning on extending the shower all the way to the exterior garage wall.. so I would have to either go into the slab to cover there or bring it down from the attic.

    Thoughts? Any rough estimates to perform this work if I handle all the demo myself? How deep & wide into the slab would I need to go? Building the shower onto a step-up platform is not an option (personal preference).
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #2

    Apr 18, 2009, 10:45 AM
    Before I can answer, will this be a custom tile shower or a manufactured shower base? PLease explain a liite more about your plans. Regards, tom
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #3

    Apr 18, 2009, 11:12 AM

    On which wall is your water plumbing ?

    Milo, his mixing valve and shower head will install on the left side of the enclosure as shown in his diagram.
    hobbzilla's Avatar
    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #4

    Apr 18, 2009, 12:22 PM
    Was planning on trying my hand at a custom shower pan installation with the schluter kerdi system (w/o their prefab tray) as it seems to be a little easier and only requires a single mortar bed.

    I do not plan on moving the drain. The drain will stay put and be at the entrance to the shower and away from the shower head. But remember this is only a 6-7' long shower.

    Based on the separation of piping coming out of the slab, I think the trench should only need to be 6-8", not sure how deep, perhaps just 3" and have a run of 3-4'. I do have some concerns about post-tension cabling and the proximity of the slab work so close to the edge of the house (3-4'). I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill here since this is just copper piping and not the drain line. But I'm not familiar with code and how deep supply piping must be under the slab -- or if that is even a requirement.

    Milo, the new plumbing will still be an interior wall that will be constructed. Additionally, I am tossing out the idea of having 2 heads and a 3-way control valve after the mixing valve and having a 12" rain showerhead mounted on the ceiling.

    I thought about being able to run the copper right on the slab and just cover it up with mortar bed but I thought that may make the pitch to high.
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #5

    Apr 18, 2009, 12:52 PM

    Hobbzilla: You are making wise decision: leave the drain in the same location. Build your own custom pan. Hot mop or install PVC liner. Either way si fine. You could run h/c water pipes in the mortar bed, but... I personally would suggest to score the concrete and chip it out for new pipes. I am afraid that your new mortar bed, and tile, may crack where pipes are running, especially where hot water pipe will be.

    Yes, post-tension cable may create problem for you if you decide to cut and dig into concrete slab - but it is not end of the world. We work around these cables all the time w/o problem.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #6

    Apr 18, 2009, 03:06 PM
    Hey Hobzilla,
    Let me give you another option with the water lines. Your diagram shows a manifold in the shower wall, correct? That wall comes down for the shower floor , correct? What are you going to do with the manifold? Where's that going to hide out at?
    If you will be moving it to another wall why no simply extend the hot and cold supplies up overhead and then drop down to pick up your shower valve. And why not go a little wild and place a few extra shower heads , including a pancake rain shower head, if you want to. You could trick it out with chrome shut offs to each shower head in the shower wall.
    The nicest part about designing tyour own custom built shower is that you can have it any way you want it. Good luck, Tom
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    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #7

    Apr 18, 2009, 07:34 PM

    Tom,

    I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean. I don't believe there is a manifold in the current shower wall or if there is, I guess the term is used for more than what I think of when I hear "manifold".

    The plans do include a new shower plumbing wall. However, that wall was not going to go to the ceiling of the closet. I was only going to go 8' and leave a 2' storage space above the shower in the closet. The ceilings in my house and closet are 10'. The current shower wall does extend all the way to the ceiling and my plans were to simply knock out a 2.5'w x 7'h entrance into the new section of shower.

    It really is going to be more of a inner and outer shower. The inner shower will be completely enclosed like a closet except an entry into where the existing shower is. The existing shower will become the landing and drying off area where the drain is and will have a towel bar (something sorely missing in our bathroom -- we have a towel hook and the shower door opens up into it so you have to reach around the door to get your towel.. very well thought out). We plan on having no doors or glass anywhere.

    The current shower is a standard square prefab'd shower (3x3' ?) with glass on one side with a half-wall between the shower & tub, a glass door with a small strip of glass and tile on the remain two walls. The current shower plumbing wall has 4 pipes that come up through the slab. 2 lines continue to the mixing valve and up to the shower head. The other two lines simply connect to the hot & cold lines. I can only assume they make the short run to the tub. Why the lines didn't go under the prefab curb and into the half-wall to the tub, I have no idea.. I can take some pics if needed of everything.

    Regardless, the issues at hand is that the current shower plumbing wall is right smack in the middle of the new shower. The lines actually would be the best spot for a new drain.. but again, I don't want to mess with that!

    My plan was to cut the lines a inch or two below the slab and solder elbows to extend to the newly built shower plumbing wall by running them a with the slab down a few inches for about 3 feet.. I have read various concerns about having solder joints under or in the slab but I assumed that there were probably already some solder joints under or in the slab already to make some of the longer runs and the bends, but that may not be true. Of course the new copper pipe would be insluated and sleeved or in a PVC conduit OR both.

    I probably should call the local code office to find out what my options are. I certainly don't want a leak and my insurance company to laugh..
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #8

    Apr 18, 2009, 08:16 PM
    Tom,
    I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean. I don't believe there is a manifold in the current shower wall or if there is, I guess the term is used for more than what I think of when I hear "manifold".
    Your drawing shows a manifold in the shower wall,(see image) A manifold is simply where the water pipes come out of the slab and supply a fixture and then jump back down into the slab. Where you going to put it when you remove the shower wall?
    My plan was to cut the lines a inch or two below the slab and solder elbows to extend to the newly built shower plumbing wall by running them a with the slab down a few inches for about 3 feet.. I have read various concerns about having solder joints under or in the slab but I assumed that there were probably already some solder joints under or in the slab already to make some of the longer runs and the bends, but that may not be true. I probably should call the local code office to find out what my options are.
    Change your plans! Solder joints under a slab's are a no-no. That's why we have manifolds. So the solder joints are above the slab. The Building Department will verify this if you call.
    The current shower plumbing wall has 4 pipes that come up through the slab. 2 lines continue to the mixing valve and up to the shower head. The other two lines simply connect to the hot & cold lines. I can only assume they make the short run to the tub. Why the lines didn't go under the prefab curb and into the half-wall to the tub, I have no idea.. I can take some pics if needed of everything
    No need for pics. The manifold is sinply hot and cold feeds.
    The reason I know so much about slab plumbing is that I live on the Gulf Coast where ALL of our buildings are on slabs an d I've been here doing this since 1955. Which bririgs us back to my originial question. Whadda you going to do with that pesky manifold? This will be a toughie for you. Ya can't cap it off because it's feeding other fixtures, Ya can't hide it under cemet or mortar . Once you open up that wall you got a problem.. Do you have a solution? I know of only one that will keep you legal but you might just come up with another. I feel bad about raining all over your parade but better to know these things before you get too far along. Back to you, tom
    Attached Images
     
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    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #9

    Apr 18, 2009, 09:28 PM

    Tom,

    Well, crap!

    If that is the way to do it, then at least I can have a sigh of relief in chopping up my slab! I still have some options but I think only one will fit the picture in my head.

    1) I could build a bench in the middle of my shower to hide the manifold and wrap it around the side of the closet to the new location. However, I think that might cause a problem with water flow to the drain since I'm not moving it.

    2) I have a good 3 feet from the manifold to the closet door so I could offset my entrance into the "main" shower area but again, flow to the drain would be weird.

    3) I could create a step-up platform shower and extend my drain. I really, really think this would be bad in both function and design. Not to mention being difficult when it comes time to have another knee surgery after playing basketball when I'm out of shape!

    Therefore, I guess my new plan is as follows:
    Cap the existing lines. Tie into the washer supply lines and run new lines from the closet wall that is on the opposite side as the washer/dryer. The new run would be in the existing walls (garage and exterior wall) and wrap around the entire closet. Assuming that the manifold feeds the tub, I would have a line split and just keep going to the tub which is achievable by continuing down the exterior wall to the tub.

    Questions resulting from new plan:
    1) Other than just capping and trying all the fixtures, how do I find out what *really* is fed from the manifold?

    2) If code prohibits solder joints below slab, does cutting & capping the lines have to occur above grade too? If so then I still have problems. The only way I could see that as not being an issue would be to find the origin of the line and cut it from that supply. Thus, leaving some abandonded piping -- at which point even capping isn't needed.

    Thoughts?
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #10

    Apr 19, 2009, 05:53 AM
    1) I could build a bench in the middle of my shower to hide the manifold and wrap it around the side of the closet to the new location. However, I think that might cause a problem with water flow to the drain since I'm not moving it.
    Thinking outside the box! I like that! Wish more people did that, (including some plumbers I knnow.) But as noval as it sounds it's impractical and you're still left with figuring out how to bring the shower supplies out.
    2) I have a good 3 feet from the manifold to the closet door so I could offset my entrance into the "main" shower area but again, flow to the drain would be weird.
    Nope again!
    3) I could create a step-up platform shower and extend my drain.
    That platform would have to be pretty high to cover the manifold wouldn't it? And since The drain's already in place and the most difficult to change let's leave it alone.
    4)
    Thherefore, I guess my new plan is as follows:
    Cap the existing lines. Tie into the washer supply lines and run new lines from the closet wall that is on the opposite side as the washer/dryer. The new run would be in the existing walls (garage and exterior wall) and wrap around the entire closet. Assuming that the manifold feeds the tub, I would have a line split and just keep going to the tub which is achievable by continuing down the exterior wall to the tub.
    .
    Sorry! That won't work either! You don't know what else that manifold's feeding. That maniflod's part of a continuous loop that jumps up in one wall to supply a fixture and then jumps back under the slab to pop up in another wall to feed another and so on down the line. Who knows how many fixtures you would be cutting out of the loop.
    Questions resulting from new plan:
    1) Other than just capping and trying all the fixtures, how do I find out what *really* is fed from the manifold?
    The only way would be to cap the lines and see what fixtures you disable. And then what? Run separate supplies to each disabled fixture?
    2) If code prohibits solder joints below slab, does cutting & capping the lines have to occur above grade too? If so then I still have problems. The only way I could see that as not being an issue would be to find the origin of the line and cut it from that supply. Thus, leaving some abandonded piping -- at which point even capping isn't needed.
    That would work but it's too labor intensive.

    OK! We've looked at your ideas
    . Time to take a peek at mine. Before I go into it I need to know if this is a one story house? The wall you have marked "outside" Is it really a outside wall? What material is this outside wall? Frame or cement block? I assume the inner shower wall goes all the way up to the ceiling and isn't a shadow wall.
    My way may need to solder some pipes. Can you handle that? Cheer up! There is a way out of this. Tom
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    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #11

    Apr 19, 2009, 07:52 AM

    Tom,

    Well the manifold's solder joints are probably 6" up from the slab. I assumed they could be cut down & re-connected. Therefore, the platform could be 6" or less.

    As far as what other fixtures are being fed by this manifold. Just based on the location of other fixtures, I had just assumed that the manifold was feeding the tub. I too assumed that whatever was the next in the loop would be the only fixture that needed to be re-run as the remaining in the chain would be restored if it was.

    To answer your question, it is a single-story house. The wall marked is an outside wall is an external wall. It is framed and has a brick exterior.

    The two walls of the shower both go all the way to the ceiling. The other simply glass door and window set on a half wall between the shower & bath.
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #12

    Apr 19, 2009, 09:08 AM

    You may also consider this option: Tub pedestal has h/c plumbing lines for the tub faucet. Tee-off inside the pedestal and extend new h/c water lines to the exterior wall, than bring them through the wall to your desired shower valve location.

    As far as the existing plumbing in the middle of the shower: Lower your manifold below existing below the floor. Cap off h/c shower outlets.
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    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #13

    Apr 19, 2009, 09:15 AM

    Milo,

    I thought if I capped off the shower supply and lowered my manifold below the slab that would be the equivalent of soldering under the slab -- which was indicated as a "no, no" and would not pass code. If I was able to do that.. I wouldn't cap off the shower lines and t-off from the tub, I would just extend them under the slab as was my original plan.

    Am I missing something?
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    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #14

    Apr 19, 2009, 09:19 AM

    You don't solder copper under slab. You weld it using silver rod. Silver-welded joints in copper tubing under slab are allowed.
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    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #15

    Apr 19, 2009, 09:20 AM
    You could platform the shower but they always look kind of funky and not well thought out.
    OK! Here's my game plan. Disconnect the hot and cold supplies from the shower valve and cap them off so you'll have water in the house. Now take up the floor and see which way the underslab copper's coming from. Taking up the floor follow the copper back to the nearest wall. Since it's all all soft copper you can reposition the manifold in that wall. You may have some solder work to do here so mark all the hot and cold lines, ( looking at the manifold from the shower side the hot raiser should be on the left). You should now have the manifold and the hot and cold supplies inside the wall. So far- so good! If you haven't kinked any lines and the soft copper's all in one piece you may patch the floor. Now you can take soft 1/.2" copper and loop up into the attic and drop down in through the shower wall to pick up the shower valve.
    You'll end up with a professional looking job that looks like a pro put it in. M ilo, Mark, can you come up with something better?
    Sound like a plan? Cheers Tom.
    hobbzilla's Avatar
    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #16

    Apr 19, 2009, 12:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal View Post
    You don't solder copper under slab. You weld it using silver rod. Silver-welded joints in copper tubing under slab are allowed.
    Okay, instead of "soldering" can I "weld" the manifold using silver rod under the slab? And extend my lines as originally planned?

    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    OK! Here's my game plan. Disconnect the hot and cold supplies from the shower valve and cap them off so you'll have water in the house.
    Following you so far. I should have water into the house and all fixtures in that loop but not to the shower.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    Now take up the floor and see which way the underslab copper's coming from. Taking up the floor follow the copper back to the nearest wall.
    Take up the floor? If I'm following you, you are saying try to relocate the manifold the 1-2' to the right or to the left of where it is at in order to get it out of the middle of the shower. Sounds like a plan! So long as if I have enough slack in the pipe to do this... I guess I was under the impression if I were to try to relocate the manifold that I would not have but a few inches of give in either direction.
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    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #17

    Apr 19, 2009, 12:52 PM

    Welding copper with silver rod is an approved method of sealing copper under slab...
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    hobbzilla Posts: 28, Reputation: 2
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    #18

    Apr 19, 2009, 01:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal View Post
    Welding copper with silver rod is an approved method of sealing copper under slab...
    Yes from what I have found, it is the code. However, I have read that I'm asking for trouble later on... because silver solder/brazing severely weakens the fitting and the copper tube. The joint may not break, but the fitting itself could. I most definitely don't want to increase the chances for a leak under the slab.. I've been feeling pretty unlucky lately! :(

    I did find out at least the hot water connection manifold does run to the tub. This was evidenced by the flow of water felt, heard and the pipe heating up as the bath water was being run. This increases my confidence that if I were to re-run the shower and a run new lines to the tub that anything else after the shower would continue to be serviced. My only issue is that by doing so and capping the manifold, I would have a dead line and have been warned about the stagnant water that would creat. Not to mention that it can create health issues, and if the water gets bad enough it could be corrosive to the copper and cause it to fail and have a leak under the slab... So, now how to find that runs origin? Thoughts?

    As Tom suggestes, if I did try and relocate the manifold a few feet to the right or left, how would I be able to if the existing manifold truly does service the tub? I think I would definitely have the slack to follow the supply line back to it's origin.. but what about the line that continues on? It will be going in a different direction and more than likely at a 90 degree angle? I would probably be limited by the slack in that run than the originating one..

    It would look like this from a birds-eye. The "/" lines are the runs I'm talking about..

    Code:
    before:
    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
    W     W   w
    W     W[M]===== tub
    W     W|| w
    W      ||
    W     W?? 
    W     W
    W     W
    W     W
    W     W
    WWWWWWW
            
    after:
    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
    W         w
    W:      /===== tub
    W===== // w
    WWWWWW[M]
    W      ?? 
    W     W
    W     W
    W     W
    W     W
    WWWWWWW
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #19

    Apr 20, 2009, 06:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal View Post
    Welding copper with silver rod is an approved method of sealing copper under slab...
    Not down here Milo! And I'm surprised that a code as strict as UPC allows it at all. In my area you have to get special permission to place any type of a joint under the pour. I've only done it once in all the time I've been here. Back in 79 I had a building of 6 one story untits burn to the slab. Melted all our copper supplies. We had just started to stack out so we didn't lose anything but our water pipes. The general contractor was planning breaking up the slab and starting from scratch. I told him that if the electrictions lines were clear and I could get permission to run solder joints under the slab I thought save the slab. Long story short! I jackhammered up the lab at each stub up down to good copper, soildered a coupling and brought them up over grade. But before we could patch the slab I had to pump each unit up to 125 PSI and hold it over night. That's the only time I ever soldered joints under a slab. Any you say your code allows this? Is this common practice or do you have to get permision? Just curious. Regards, Tom

    Hobbzilla, May I call you Hobb? I'm having a little difficulty reading your manifold drawings. Can you "dumb " it down a bit for me?
    what about the line that continues on? It will be going in a different direction and more than likely at a 90 degree angle? I would probably be limited by the slack in that run than the originating one..
    I understand your concerns. However, the nicest thing about water pipe is that you have much more flexability then drainage. If you can just get that manifold moved over inside a wall if you come up short on a feeder line under the slab , you can always track it back and cut both ends making it a dead line . You may then loop back up in the attic and drop another supply down to pick up the fixture.
    Once you get that hot and cold manifold inside a wall you could pipe to any fixture in the house. Of course you could still platform the shower and step up in to it. Milo gaveyou good advice and I laid out how I would do it if it were my job but you're the final word. Your choice! Cheers, Tom
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #20

    Apr 20, 2009, 06:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    Not down here Milo! And I'm suprised that a code as strict as UPC allows it at all. In my area you have to get special permission to place any type of a joint under the pour. I've only done it once in all the time I've been here. Back in 79 I had a building of 6 one story untits burn to the slab. Melted all our copper supplies. We had just started to stack out so we didn't lose anything but our water pipes. The general contractor was planning breaking up the slab and starting from scratch. I told him that if the electrictions lines were clear and I could get permission to run solder joints under the slab I thought save the slab. Long story short! I jackhammered up the lab at each stub up down to good copper, soildered a coupling and brought them up over grade. But before we could patch the slab I had to pump each unit up to 125 PSI and hold it over night. That's the only time I ever soldered joints under a slab. Any you say your code allows this? Is this common practice or do you have to get permision? Just curious. Regards, Tom
    Tom, there are situations where you have to make a connection under slab. What do you do in these cases in your area ?

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