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    How best to sweat angle stop with extension?

    Asked Jul 25, 2009, 09:41 PM 24 Answers
    I wanted to get advice on how to cleanly solder the Brasscraft - Supply Valves CS40B C1 Angle Valve (see pic). I see they slip over the 1/2 inch stub I have but how much overlap should I have for sweating and if it is too long do I cut the chrome covered ext tube? I wanted some expertise on how to get the best looking results before I try and mess it up. I wanted some hints on how to not burn the wall when I sweat and get it all to be coverd by the eschuchen. If someone can impart their wisdom on these matters I would be grateful.

    Thank you

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    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 838
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    #2

    Jul 25, 2009, 10:15 PM


    You cannot cut the chrome piece. You use a heat shield and/or a piece of metal. The estucheuns turn into mush in a few years, so the nice look is temporary. I just painted a toilet supply like yours with black epoxy. I need to patch it up with some body filler, but otherwise it looks nice.



    I don't like those at all. Take a look at this thread:

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...tml#post882004

    The chrome plated brass pipe makes everything easily replaceable.

    You really need an expensive non marring wrench not to mar the chrome finish.
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    jjustinia's Avatar
    jjustinia Posts: 136, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jul 25, 2009, 10:20 PM

    The stops I have are connected with solder/ sweat, they are not threaded. Am I missing what your point was.
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    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 838
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    #4

    Jul 25, 2009, 10:55 PM

    Probably:

    I personally don't like the chrome stops like your picture.
    Replacing is a PITA
    You cannot replace the Eustuchons easily
    The Eustuchions rust easily
    The stop may not be 1/4 turn
    They are probably the nicest looking

    The chrome plated brass pipe
    1. Can change length
    2. A small amount of thread shows
    3. Can replace eustauchen by unscrewing pipe.
    4. Difficult, but not impossible to retrofit (female adapter)
    5. Valve easily replaced

    The way everyone else does it: Compression end stops
    Yuk!
    Quick and easy
    Can't change the color of copper.
    Can pull of compression connector to change eusuchon
    Ugly - would not use them for a toilet supply
    I don't like compression fittings.

    Example:
    Kitchen sink - ball valves (drain optional)
    Shower - ball valves (drain optional)
    Laundry tub - ball valves (drain optional)
    Washer - Washer valves, hose bib
    Outside shutoffs - ball valves with drain
    Toilet, exposed sink - the chome plated pipe or your option
    Vanity - the above options

    I also showed in that thread how to use a heat shield.
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    jjustinia's Avatar
    jjustinia Posts: 136, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Jul 26, 2009, 01:21 AM

    'm sorry I am not totally following what you are saying. I read that you don't like the sweat stops with chromed extensions because they are a pain if they need to be replace in the future and the escutcheons rust easily. Got it and agree!

    Not following the rest about "The chrome plated brass pipe"- I don't know what that is or what you are suggesting and what you are saying about it, or what you are describing about what everyone else does. It seem like you are putting forth something you think is good then you say "yuk". It is very confusing. It is not coming across clear to me. I am doing four supplies for a double vanity 2 cold and 2 hot-brand new work stubbed out and capped 8 inches from the green board and vanity is not in place yet. Stick to your name and keep it simple please.

    Is one of the things you are suggesting to solder on a female thread to the stub and then thread in a nipple and then thread on a shut valve to that nipple?? If so it is very poorly described. Have no idea what you mean when you say compression end stops. Please keep is simple, linear, and step by step so I can follow. While I am capable in technique I am not familiar with all the jargon, as I am not a plumber, obviously.

    I am familiar with how to use a heat shield, have one and use it. Wanted a little guidance with how close to put the actual solder line because I was for seeing the problem down the road of replace it and wanted to know how plumbers handle it and if the joint should be as close to the wall as possible or if it should be a half inch out or so and what about burn marks on the pipe etc. I was looking for the subtlies that come with experience and volume which I lack. I am less a fan of threading as I like the permanent nature of solder, I guess it is just my preference.
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    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,303, Reputation: 1939
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    #6

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:23 AM


    May I ask why you're soldering in the first place? Compression, sharkbite fittings are easier to install and you won't burn your house down while installing them. Just curious! Tom
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    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,614, Reputation: 1182
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    #7

    Jul 26, 2009, 06:14 AM


    Hi Jjustinia:

    Being under a vanity you could use sharkbite type shutoffs as Tom just recommended... see 1st image. These simple shutoffs can be installed by simply pushing them on to the correct depth and all set! They are sold at all major home supply stores.

    You could also install compression shutoffs... also very easy... see 2nd image. Here, you install a 5/8" compression sleeve and nut and slide the shutoff onto the pipe. Use two pair of pliers to tighten the nut to the shutoff... don't overtighten. These are also sold at all major home supply stores.

    You could also sweat on copper female adapters as KISS recommended and then install a nipple and angle shutoff (3rd image).

    Finally, if you want to install the extended shutoff (4th image) you posted you will want to cut the copper pipe stub outs about 2.5" off the wall and then clean the stubbed copper pipe very well using sandcloth. Next you will clean the inside of the shutoff to about 2.5" into the shutoff using a 1/2" cleaning brush (last image). You will then take some sandcloth and clean the very end of the shutoff of all the chrome. You would then slide the bell flange over the shutoff and then FLUX the inside of the shutoff (2.5") and the copper pipe stub out and install the shutoffs so they are about 1/2" to 3/4" max. off the finish wall.

    Slide the bell flange as far from the wall as possible and then sweat the valves on. Direct your heat at about 1" off the wall while rotating the flame around the shutoff. It will take a bit of solder to fill the space between the shutoff and the copper pipe so expect to use more solder than a normal joint (about2.5 times more).

    Lastly, these can be hard to install even after you follow all these steps so I want to recommend the sharkbite or compression type here... but up to you of course!

    Let us know if you have more questions...

    MARK
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    jjustinia's Avatar
    jjustinia Posts: 136, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Jul 26, 2009, 08:43 AM

    Thanks for the explanation. For the sharkbite option, what happens if you need to replace later. How would you get is off? Do you need to cut the copper leaving a shorter stub?

    For your solder directions you mentioned having them 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch off the wall. But if the extension tube is 2.5 inches how could I do that. Do you mean 1/2 inch to 3/4 inches away from the end of the escutcheons? I guess considering any option I would like to use an escutcheons. How far off the wall should I have the shut off attached?

    Thanks!
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    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,614, Reputation: 1182
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    #9

    Jul 26, 2009, 10:26 AM


    The sharkbite fitting has a DISCONNECT TOOL (see image) that is used to compress the orange ring and then you can pull the shut off away from the pipe.

    In terms of my directions for soldering the extension shutoff I said to cut the copper stub out 2.5" off the wall. Then you do all I said and then install the shutoff so it is 1/2" to 3/4" off the wall (it is on the 2.5" piece of copper sticking out of the wall). The 1/2" to 3/4" is the distance you keep the shutoff off the wall so you can solder the shutoff. The escutcheon is pulled back so it will not force the flame toward the wall... see image.

    Don't forget to apply the flux to the pipe and the shutoff... ;)

    Let me know if you need more.

    MARK
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    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 838
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    #10

    Jul 26, 2009, 11:26 AM

    There is a one piece folded plastic escutcheon that's flat (like 1/8"). It can be used for the sharkbite or the compression shutoff.
    It can be removed around any pipe with stops attached.

    the bell escutcheon is used to hide the solder joint.

    The Brasscraft is about 6" off the wall to the supply fitting center. The vanity ones that I used were about 4" off the finished wall.

    Flexible braised lines attach to the fixture or you can use a plastic line fixture connector. The fancy bending of rigid lines doesn't seem to be done anymore.
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    jjustinia's Avatar
    jjustinia Posts: 136, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:23 PM

    Very helpful, now I have a plan. I will probably go with compression as I bet the shark bite are a bit expensive, as is the removal tool. I will get the flat escutcheon aS kiss suggested and all should be fine. Everyone is comfortable that they won't leak or be pushed off by the water pressure, I assume or you would not have recommended.
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    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,614, Reputation: 1182
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    #12

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Correct.

    Compression valves are very reliable... ;)
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    jjustinia's Avatar
    jjustinia Posts: 136, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:27 PM

    Excellent! Thank you for the quality advice
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    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 838
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    #14

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:37 PM

    Another hint:

    You can sleave the pipe in the wall with PVC. This method works a lot better to be able to seal and/or firestop the pipes through the wall.

    Conventional drywall patching to he PVC and then a firestop from the PVC and copper. The copper can protrude slightly to give to an edge to patch to.
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    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,614, Reputation: 1182
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    #15

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:39 PM
    Thank you. We have fun doing it!
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    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 838
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    #16

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:45 PM

    The drawback of the flat estucheon is that it rquires 2 screws to secure it. This might be an issue with ceramic tile.

    Mark:

    Do you know of a quality supplier of chrome plated estucheons?
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    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,614, Reputation: 1182
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    #17

    Jul 26, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Hey hey...

    The ones at the local plumbing supply house always work for me... not sure of the name brand. Here is an example of the most common one used with a compression valve.

    It can be secured to the wall with a dab of adhesive caulking on the back side.

    Last note here, by the way... just for future posters. The extended shutoff with bell flange can actually be cut down and then installed.

    Typically, I will measure so the shutoff ends up at about 3.5" to center from the finished wall. I remember to deduct for the 1/2" to 3/4" that I need to keep the shutoff away from the wall and cut that measure.

    Then I use the reaming tool on the copper tubing cutter to ream the end so that it is slightly flared (YUP! There's actually a use for that thing on the tool... :D see image). The cut/reamed end needs to be cleaned very well using the sandcloth and the 1/2" cleaning brush. Flux, solder, etc... ;)

    If after cutting you don't round/flare the shutoff end you will never install it!

    Again, just F.Y.I for future readers!

    MARK
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    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,303, Reputation: 1939
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    #18

    Jul 27, 2009, 05:44 AM
    You cannot cut the chrome piece. The estucheuns turn into mush in a few years You can sleave the pipe in the wall with PVC. This method works a lot better to be able to seal and/or firestop the pipes through the wall. Conventional drywall patching to he PVC and then a firestop from the PVC and copper. The copper can protrude slightly to give to an edge to patch to. The drawback of the flat estucheon is that it rquires 2 screws to secure it.
    Kiss, I can understand why the Asker had difficulty in following you. I'm having the same problem myself.
    1) why can't the chrome tube be cut back?
    2) What climate are you in that will turn chrome estucheouns to mush? Ours are still shiny after years and years. So if the chrome escutcheons turn to mush in your area whadda you use to cover the holes in the wall the stub outs come out of? And what's with this? "The drawback of the flat estucheon is that it rquires 2 screws to secure it." SAY WHAT? Notice the little teeth in the opening. Their there for a reason. They grip the copper stub out and hold it against the wall.
    For a bit more insurance you can dab some adhesive Dap on the back of the plate.
    3)
    You can sleave the pipe in the wall with PVC. This method works a lot better to be able to seal and/or firestop the pipes through the wall
    Here you lost me completely. Is this some kind of nutty local code that considers all stubouts to be a fire hazard? Not meaning to rain on your parade but perhaps I'm just dense because it's so early but I'm really trying to comprehend your answers. Regards, Tom
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    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,912, Reputation: 897
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    #19

    Jul 27, 2009, 07:34 AM

    Just a note for jjustina.


    In Home Depot yesterday, saw they had the Brasscraft slip on ,1/4 turn stop valves for about $8. Their version of Sharkbite, don't need the tool to remove.
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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 2,979, Reputation: 144
    Well & Pump Expert
     
    #20

    Jul 27, 2009, 11:05 AM

    Guys, am I correct in thinking that a practice to avoid with compression fittings is OVER tightening?
    Helpful (1)

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