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    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Mar 1, 2007, 05:10 PM
    DWV Layout in Basement
    I am reposting since my original already moved to the 3rd page

    Any help with the layout would be helpful. I would like to start tearing up the concrete this weekend if I can get this figured out.
    I would like to put in a bathroom in my basement and move the laundry area. The existing laundry si where the proposed shower/existing floor drain is. I have attached a pdf showing my proposed layout. I would like to connect to the main sewer line at the existing floor drain. I have gotten quotes for just the rough plumbing from 2 plumbing contractors which I thought was high ($4000 and $2800) since I was removing and replacing the concrete in both. Both of them were going to use mechanical vents per their quote and I have believe they are acceptable per the code here (Michigan). WHat is the best way to layout the drain system and how would I vent it. The qoutes I received had 2 mech vents (I am assuming these are AAV's). The Laundry area will have a standpipe for the washer which will tie in the laundry sink drain. Does it matter which side? Any help would be appreciated.

    Also, the main stack serves as the vent for the main floor bathroom. The bathroom is small so everything is within 6 ft of it. I don't believe there is any vent pipes from these fixtures, its vented through the drain lines to the main stack. I do have a secondary vent for the kitchen sink, its approx 15 away from the proposed dryer location to the right of the page.
    Thanks
    Attached Images
  1. File Type: pdf bathroom layout.pdf (41.1 KB, 361 views)
  2. doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #2

    Mar 1, 2007, 10:56 PM
    1- remove floor drain and continue that pipe to washing machine wall. Turn up and put a 2" tee about 8" above the floor and pick up the washing machine on a 2" trap from there. stack a 2" x 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" san tee above that so it will rough at 12" aff [ above finished floor to pick up the laundry sink, then run you vent.
    2- start at toilet, run line to main line. About 4' from main put a 3" x 2" combination to the lavatory for the stack. About 3' from the combination put a 2" combination to pick up the tub. let it go back toward the main pipe wall then turn 90 degrees to line up with the tub drain. this amount of travel should easily keep you within 8' and allow the 2" to cross over the 3" toilet trunk.
    I did not respond to your first post because I could not easily read from your drawing.
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Mar 2, 2007, 07:16 AM
    Thanks for the answer. I am assuming I would need to vent at the lavatory for itself, the tub, and the toilet. Can I vent it near the lavatory or is that to far away from the tub and toilet?

    Also, could I replace the connection the floor drain makes to the sewer main with a 3" or 4" line and tap the washer/laundry sink and the 3" toilet run into it. This way I would have only one connection the sewer main but I am not sure if this is OK.

    I am planning on using AAV for venting. If I decided to run the vent back to the main stack, how far up do I need to tie into. Is it a set distance above the highest drain entering it or is it based on the where the actual fixtures are that drain into it

    Thanks
    doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #4

    Mar 2, 2007, 09:08 AM
    [QUOTE=nate220]Thanks for the answer. I am assuming I would need to vent at the lavatory for itself, the tub, and the toilet. Can I vent it near the lavatory or is that to far away from the tub and toilet?
    Answer... the toilet must be within 10' of a vented line. The line that will carry the lavatory and the tub is considered a wet vent until is picks up the toilet. Then the toilet is considered to be vented. The tub must be 2" under the slab and a 2" trap. The tub must be within 8' of the lavatory line. The lavatory line is considered a wet vent. This allows the tub to be 'wet vented'. The lavatory can be vented with an air admittance valve but in many cases the toilet flush is sluggish because it can not push a head of air out the vent. The lavatory branch from the center of the trap to the center of the vent must be within 5'. An air admittance valve can terminate under the lavatory as low as 3" above the drain.

    Also, could I replace the connection the floor drain makes to the sewer main with a 3" or 4" line and tap the washer/laundry sink and the 3" toilet run into it. This way I would have only one connection the sewer main but I am not sure if this is OK.
    Answer... yes, you can use 3" and catch the wash room on a 2" line then add a 3" x 2" combination to the lavatory and then continue to the toilet. Then on the 2" lavatory line branch to the tub. Same maximum distances apply.
    [note] according to the code a pump or motorized appliance must enter at least 10 feet downstream of another fixture. You are going to be violating this with the washing machine entering in about 5 feet from the toilet.

    I am planning on using AAV for venting. If I decided to run the vent back to the main stack, how far up do I need to tie into. Is it a set distance above the highest drain entering it or is it based on the where the actual fixtures are that drain into it
    Answer... a vent line can not make a turn greater than 45 degrees until it is at least 6" above the flood level rim of the highest fixture it serves. Your tie in should also be at that height or above.
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Mar 2, 2007, 02:26 PM
    Thanks - one last clarification. If my vent line ties back into the main waste stack, it will definitley be 6" above the highest flood level of the basement fixtures. Since my upstairs fixtures drain to that main stack, would I want the vent to tie in above those drains.

    Would venting the toilet by itself with an AAV help with the sluggish flushing instead of using the lav as a wet vent?

    Thanks again, this has been extremely helpful
    doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #6

    Mar 2, 2007, 02:43 PM
    If you reconnect into a 'wet' pipe it is likely that some of that 'wet' will enter into your connected pipe. If some of that 'wet' is solid it will clog the vent and you will not be able to remove it.
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Mar 2, 2007, 06:38 PM
    Thanks, if I reconnect into the main, I will make sure toconnect above any waste lines.

    Would venting the toilet by itself with its own AAV instead of venting through the lavatory sink help the sluggish flushing?
    doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #8

    Mar 2, 2007, 11:16 PM
    I don't think so. You are still operating under the same principle.
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Mar 5, 2007, 11:39 AM
    Thanks - I removed some of the basement ceiling and the kitchen waste runs almost directly over where my toilet will be. Can I run a vent line to that line so it will be vented through the kitchen, it has its own vent stack.

    Also, I do need to put in a floor drain per the code here. Should I tie that into the 2" line for the standpipe and laundry sink or should it run directly into the 3" line.

    Thanks
    doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #10

    Mar 5, 2007, 07:09 PM
    If you use the sink as your vent, you will be running sink water down the vent. I would not put a floor drain.
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Mar 6, 2007, 08:36 AM
    If I vented to the kitchen sink waste line, I would come in on the top of the waste line.

    I have to put in the floor drain per code, which way should I tie in the drain line?
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #12

    Mar 6, 2007, 11:17 AM
    As Doug pointed out you take a chance of the sink draining into the washer trap and if you tie the washer vent into the horzontal drain line of the kitchen sink you'll guarantee it. How ever tie into the sink vent at least 6" over the flood rim of the sink and you'll be.good to go.
    Connecting a floor drain close to a washer drain isn't a good idea. Regards, Tomj
    doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #13

    Mar 6, 2007, 04:35 PM
    What code says you must have a floor drain in a residence? Can you tell me what jurisdiction you are under? Do you know the code number?
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Mar 8, 2007, 07:19 AM
    I am in Grand Rapids, MI. They said that I need a way for water to exit the basement in case the hot water heater ruptured. They said I would need either a floor drain or a surface crock. In new houses around here, the floor drain is usually installed near the hot waer heater itself. My house is 50 yrs old and it was installed 30' away from the hot water heater.

    I am assuming I should run the floor drain directly to the 3" line from the toilet, not the washer/laundry sink line.

    Also, would I need a backwater check valve on the 3" toilet line just before it ties into the main waste line?

    Thanks
    doug238's Avatar
    doug238 Posts: 1,560, Reputation: 62
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    #15

    Mar 10, 2007, 10:28 PM
    Sounds like you already have a floor drain in the basement.
    A backwater valve is only required if that fifture floor level is below the manhole cover at the street.
    nate220's Avatar
    nate220 Posts: 41, Reputation: 1
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    #16

    Mar 11, 2007, 09:08 AM
    The floor drain I have, I am relocating. I am using the existing floor drain to drain the new basement bathroom and laundry room. I am tying in the new 3" line for the toilet to that floor drain line. I have exposed it and its a 4" wye at the main. I would like to put a 4" by 2" wye and then a 2" by 2" wye after that on the 2" line One 2" would serve the washer stand pipe/luandry sink combo and the other 2" to the floor drain. Basically, the washer standpipe and laundry sink 2" line would connect to the floor drain 2" line just before they connect to the main toilet line. Is this acceptable or should they each tie into the toilet line separately.

    The new fixtures are definitely below the manhole cover at the street since this is a basement so I am assuming I need the backwater check valve.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #17

    Mar 11, 2007, 09:48 AM
    They said that I need a way for water to exit the basement in case the hot water heater ruptured. They said I would need either a floor drain or a surface crock.
    Who is "They Said"?

    Is this coming from the Plumber -- Or is this coming from the local authority?

    FYI, the 2003 Michigan Plumbing Code, with a few region specific amendments, is based almost entirely on the 2003 International Plumbing Code -- And there is no specific code requirement for a floor drain in a basement with a HW tank.

    What is required, if you're below grade and cannot provide a proper gravity drain for the T&P, is a floor drain or a suitable indirect drain.

    Frankly, I'd install an indirect drain with trap primer on the vertical portion of the laundry tub drain and then pipe the T&P from the HW tank to the indirect drain.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #18

    Mar 11, 2007, 01:17 PM
    Growler,
    You're focusing on the T&P valve. I have a different take.
    He said, "They said that I need a way for water to exit the basement in case the hot water heater ruptured. They said I would need either a floor drain or a surface crock."

    I'm thinking heater pan. This is a plastic pan we install under the heater and pipe to a floor drain for a indirect waste or outside in case a weld in the boiler lets go and dumps water all over the floor. A heater pan with 4" edges and a AC condensate pump would be the answer to his problem. If a rupture should occur the pumps float switch would activate, the pump would kick in and the discharge would be pumped up and outside. Sound like a plan? Regards, Tom
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #19

    Mar 11, 2007, 01:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1
    Growler,
    You're focusing on the T&P valve. I have a different take.
    He said, "They said that I need a way for water to exit the basement in case the hot water heater ruptured. They said I would need either a floor drain or a surface crock."

    I'm thinking heater pan. This is a plastic pan we install under the heater and pipe to a floor drain for a indirect waste or outside in case a weld in the boiler lets go and dumps water all over the floor. A heater pan with 4" edges and a AC condensate pump would be the answer to his problem. If a rupture should occur the pumps float switch would activate, the pump would kick in and the discharge would be pumped up and outside. Sound like a plan?? Regards, Tom
    Catastrophic tank failure is a rarity in my experience.

    I focused on the T&P because he made it clear that the HW tank is located below grade, making gravity drainage to the outside for the T&P an impossibility.

    This is a personal preference of mine that has nothing to do with code, but when designing a lay-out for a mechanical room below grade, I always supply an indirect drain to collect the discharge from T&P's, condensate drains and reduced pressure backflow preventers.

    Don't get me wrong, more often than not I also provide a floor drain -- But at least one 2" indirect drain is also included in the design and budget.

    We live in a very litigious society and the last thing I want to have to do is replace Joe-Sixpacks Barry Manilow collection.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #20

    Mar 11, 2007, 03:19 PM
    "We live in a very litigious society and the last thing I want to have to do is replace Joe-Sixpacks Barry Manilow collection."
    Or in my case my treasured 8 track and vinyl record collection of Janis Joplin, LOL!
    I agree that the T & P valve should have access to the outside but I fixed on the word "rupture" and boilers rupture while T & p valves pop off. Why don't we ask him what he meant? Regards, Tom

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