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    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #1

    Feb 7, 2010, 08:06 AM
    Drain urinal through a cleanout plug.
    Want to discharge a urinal for my basement mancave through the opening of cleanout plug of 4 1/2" cast iron vertical soil pipe / stack line / vent.

    Size of plug is 4 1/2".

    Is there an common protocol to adapt a drain through a cleanout to the cast iron soil pipe?

    Thanks!
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #2

    Feb 7, 2010, 11:09 AM

    If you can find a fitting that will reduce form 4 1/2 inches down to
    1 1/2 inches you should be able to connect a urnial up that way

    It may not be according to code but who is goind to know and if you ever want to sell your house you can easily do away with the urnial.

    Now if you can not find the fitting you need you could always go to a welding shop and take a 4 1/2 brass plug and a 11/2 inch copper male adapter and have the man make you a fittinf like you need.

    I hope you have a water supply close. Either that or a big bucket.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #3

    Feb 7, 2010, 11:26 AM

    Want to discharge a urinal for my basement mancave through the opening of cleanout plug of 4 1/2" cast iron vertical soil pipe / stack line / vent.
    I assume l this will be a wall hung urinal?
    Several reasons that this can't be done the way you describe
    1) the urinal will have to be vented. You can't simply connect back to the stack.
    2) From the floor to the lip of the urinal's about 24" You will have to measure from thew edge of the lip to the center of the drain to get the correct height.
    3) You can't use a clean out tee to drain a fixture.
    What you're going to hafta do is cut in a sanitary tee at the correct height.( rhe clean out won't be at the correct height ). Then take off a vent, (or a AAV) just after the tee. You will need special instructions on how to cut a fitting into a cast iron stack. Do you wish to take this farther? If so click on back and we'll get into specifics.
    Regards, Tom
    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #4

    Feb 7, 2010, 12:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by letmetellu View Post
    If you can find a fitting that will reduce form 4 1/2 inches down to
    1 1/2 inches you should be able to connect a urnial up that way

    It may not be accoring to code but who is goind to know and if you ever want to sell your house you can easily do away with the urnial.

    Now if you can not find the fitting you need you could always go to a welding shop and take a 4 1/2 brass plug and a 11/2 inch copper male adapter and have the man make you a fittinf like you need.

    I hope you have a water supply close. Either that or a big bucket.
    You're right, this is not a permanent fixture. If I sell the house, it comes down. It will (obviously) not be to code as I'm pretty sure (for starters) a urinal in a residential home isn't even allowed.

    I'll look for a reducer -- I have a hunch that I'm not going to find it though. I saw in another thread here the idea of a threaded male adapter to a wye section. There was a drawing diagram by Massplumber -- I'll try to repost it here:



    Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    I assume l this will be a wall hung urinal?
    Several reasons that this can't be done the way you describe
    1) the urinal will have to be vented. You can't simply connect back to the stack.
    2) From the floor to the lip of the urinal's about 24" You will have to measure from thew edge of the lip to the center of the drain to get the correct height.
    3) You can't use a clean out tee to drain a fixture.
    What you're gonna hafta do is cut in a sanitary tee at the correct height.( rhe clean out won't be at the correct height ). Then take off a vent, (or a AAV) just after the tee. you will need special instructions on how to cut a fitting into a cast iron stack. Do you wish to take this farther? If so click on back and we'll get into specifics.
    Regards, Tom
    Yep Tom, wallhung.

    I'm trying to avoid the vent or an AAV if possible. Like I said, no codes are being followed but functionality is important.

    The urinal is going on a 4.5 inch soil pipe that vents to the roof -- there are 3 of these roof vents in an 1800 square foot house -- which in my amateur opinion, is well vented. Am I right?

    There are 2 fixtures above, a shower and a toilet. Nothing will be used simultaneously. The urinal will be used about once a month when I have the knuckleheads over and otherwise will sit dorment.

    If the only way is to take a section of cast iron soil pipe out, then the entire idea is going to be scraped. I've been there before and swore I'd never return, heh!

    I bought the urinal brand new, in the box, for $15 -- I'll take the hit or just sell it.

    Just to give you a general philosophy of what I'm trying to do here, it's like this:
    I envision a low-cost, non-permanent, jury-rigged, novelity item that (I'm thinking) should function adequately with minimal "rule" following -- if I'm wrong, let me know, I have a good set of hands, can turn wrenches and sweat pipes but I have zero expertise in plumbing theory.

    All and any feedback is welcome!
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #5

    Feb 7, 2010, 12:30 PM

    OK! I understand,
    Since most urinals have a integral trap the "P" trap's unnecessary. The AAV, however, is necessary . Also, providing you can adapt a cleanout tee to 2", how do you plan on mounting your urinal? You will pipe 3/4" off the main to a Flush Valve to flush your urinal.
    Good luck, Tom
    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #6

    Feb 7, 2010, 01:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    OK! I understand,
    Since most urinals have a integral trap the "P" trap's unnecessary. the AAV, however, is necessary . Also, providing you can adapt a cleanout tee to 2", how do you plan on mounting your urinal? You will pipe 3/4" off the main to a Flush Valve to flush your urinal.
    Good luck, Tom
    Roger that on the "P" trap -- I should have mentioned that was something I did realize.

    Still don't understand by the AAV is necessary? (and I realize I don't understand much about plumbing theory) With gravity, this thing really won't "flush" without a vent?

    To mount the urinal, I'm going to build a short/narrow half-wall out of (leftover) 3/4 plywood and 2 x 4's. It'll be sturdy but also needs to be as close to the stack pipe as possible.

    I'm piping from a half inch supply and using an adapter to connect. I have no Flush Valve (too much $$) -- I was thinking about a standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal -- just like in the old days when I was a kid at Yankee Stadium!

    So, what do you think? And let me have it, I'm wearing a helmet...

    :D:D
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #7

    Feb 8, 2010, 12:04 AM
    Still don't understand by the AAV is necessary? (and I realize I don't understand much about plumbing theory) With gravity, this thing really won't "flush" without a vent?
    Code says you can not discharge a major fixture past a unvented minor one. Having said that it might flush OK and then again the suction caused by the discharge might just lower the water loevel enough for sewer gas to enter your house. Better safe then sorry. Install the AAV.
    I'm piping from a half inch supply and using an adapter to connect. I have no Flush Valve (too much $$) -- I was thinking about a standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal -- just like in the old days when I was a kid at Yankee Stadium!
    So, what do you think? And let me have it, I'm wearing a helmet...
    If by "standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal" You're talking about a wall hung tank,(see image) it works for me. Want to know what I'd do about that clean out adapter? I'd take that old brass cleanout cover, Drill a 2" hole in the center and solder in a 2" Midland Bushing With the threads facing out. You can then screw the plate back in and attach a 2" PVC female threaded adapter in and you have just converted to PVC to complete the drainage. Sound like a plan? Regards, tom
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    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #8

    Feb 8, 2010, 07:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    Code says you can not discharge a major fixture past a unvented minor one. Having said that it might flush OK and then again the suction caused by the discharge might just lower the water loevel enough for sewer gas to enter your house. Better safe then sorry. Install the AAV.!

    If by "standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal" You're talking about a wall hung tank,(see image) it works for me. wanna know what I'd do about that clean out adapter? I'd take that old brass cleanout cover, Drill a 2" hole in the center and solder in a 2" Midland Bushing With the threads facing out. You can then screw the plate back in and attach a 2" PVC female threaded adapter in and you have just converted to PVC to complete the drainage. Sound like a plan? Regards, tom
    Now you're talking Tom, thanks! That sounds like a plan! A "midland bushing" is something like this, right?



    Wall hung tank? No, I'm talking about a inline valve -- off and on. Back in the day, a lot of urinals in public places that were done "on-the-cheap" had of-and-on valves.

    My grammar school had them.

    Turn it on, let a gallon of water in, clear the bowl -- and turn it off. Mimick what the flush valve does. Something like this soldered into the feed line:



    No good?

    Hit me back, thanks.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #9

    Feb 8, 2010, 10:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ;
    Wall hung tank? No, I'm talking about a inline valve -- off and on.
    Works for me! I would install a self closing valve( see the images) instead of just a inline stop. It will save on water and prevent leaving the valve open.
    A 2" brass bushing, such as you pictured will work just dandy.
    Good work. Tom
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    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #10

    Feb 8, 2010, 12:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    Works for me!! I would install a self closing valve( see the images) instead of just a inline stop. It will save on water and prevent leaving the valve open.
    A 2" brass bushing, such as you pictured will work just dandy.
    Good work. Tom
    Wow! That's the exact valve that I was talking about/they used in my grammar school, spring loaded type! I didn't even know they existed anymore!

    Will a Home Depot type store have that or is that a plumbing supply house item only? Are they a lot more expensive?

    Also, I decided to have a look at the cleanout today, so I started to unscrew it, when D'OH:



    Just my luck! I guess I'll dremel/chisel it out being careful not to damage the threads -- unless you say different.

    Thanks a whole lot Tom, I really appreciate it!
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #11

    Feb 8, 2010, 08:19 PM

    I see you found a way that it could be done, and also you can buy a urnial that does not have a trap built in if you would rather use a urnial spud and a 1 1/2 p-trap.
    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #12

    Feb 8, 2010, 08:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by letmetellu View Post
    I see you found a way that it could be done, and also you can buy a urnial that does not have a trap built in if you would rather use a urnial spud and a 1 1/2 p-trap.
    Not following you let?

    I already purchased the urinal, $15 bucks, brand new, in the box.

    But still, I don't see the advantage of what you describe?

    I'm interested.
    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #13

    Feb 9, 2010, 11:46 AM
    For the supply line, I had a few of these standard-type copper adapters laying around but I'm not sure if the threads are the same. There was some resistance when trying to tighten it, so I didn't force it, I figured I'd ask the experts first.

    Can you tell by looking if these threads should match??



    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #14

    Feb 9, 2010, 12:20 PM
    Letmetellu is giving you the option of adding more fittings plus buying another urinal.. Disregard! The two threads should both be compatible with enough wraps of teflon tape.
    I thinkyou'll hafta speial order the spring loaded valve. I imagine it will cost more. If you can't locate one I can help.
    That brass cover looks ate up. Purchase a new one and go from there. Cheers, Tom
    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #15

    Feb 9, 2010, 02:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1 View Post
    Letmetellu is giving you the option of adding more fittings plus buying another urinal.. Disregard!! The two threads should both be compatible with enough wraps of teflon tape.
    I thinkyou'll hafta speial order the spring loaded valve. I imagine it will cost more. If you can't locate one I can help.
    That brass cover looks ate up. Purchase a new one and go from there. Cheers, Tom
    Roger that on the plug, it was me that ate it up while trying to take it off -- already dremeled the old one out and purchased a new one.

    Below are pictures the parts I purchased -- I'm pretty sure this will work. I have 2 inch PVC pipe to fill in the gaps according to my height particulars, use your imagination.

    Instead of solder, I plan on JB welding the 2" nipple to the hole that I cutout on the brass cleanout plug.

    Please let me know what you think and give me any suggestions you may have, thanks Tom!

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    mygirlsdad77 Posts: 5,713, Reputation: 339
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    #16

    Feb 9, 2010, 04:45 PM

    Im just checking in here to see what the final result is. This is so far off the beaten path, I'm just completely turned around.lol. With what your looking to do ( and don't repeat this to anyone, or I'm afraid they would snatch my plumbing license away so quick it would make my head spin), just go for it. As long as it drains, and is vented(by means of the aav) and doesn't leak, you've got yourself a man cave urinal. Enjoy it, heck for the fifteen bucks you spent on the urinal itself, its worth a try. Let us know how it all works out. Lee.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #17

    Feb 9, 2010, 05:49 PM

    While I don't know about the JB Weld I'd feela lot better if the bushing were soldered or welded on to the cover. You supply looks like it will work. Is the valve spring loaded?

    Lee, (Mygirlsdad) I voiced my concerns in my first post. But What da hell? He came up with a workable drain and vent. It might make a plumbing inspector tear his hair out as he hung a red tag on the job but, bottom line, it works. Cheers Tom
    Mancave's Avatar
    Mancave Posts: 20, Reputation: 2
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    #18

    Feb 9, 2010, 07:09 PM

    Thanks guys, I really appreciate your advice despite the fact that this is somewhat of a "jury rigged" install -- it makes your help all-the-more valued.

    Tom> I'm under the impression that solder won't "grab" the cast iron nipple, that's why I chose the JB Weld (epoxy). I don't have welding or brazing equipment, so that option is out.

    This epoxy (JB Weld) formulation has gotten really good -- 10 years ago I'd never consider it but today, I think it'll work. I'll be applying both inside and out.

    I checked the local chain hardware stores and two supply houses for the spring loaded supply valve -- no dice. I was told by a few guys that they're "outlawed." I'll go with the ball valve for now and keep searching.

    Lee> I'll definitely keep you posted and be sure to post pics of my progress and the completed job.

    Along the way, any and all comments (and encouragement) are welcomed and as always, greatly appreciated.

    Thanks again!!
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #19

    Feb 9, 2010, 07:29 PM

    ++From earlier post***
    I see you found a way that it could be done, and also you can buy a urnial that does not have a trap built in if you would rather use a urnial spud and a 1 1/2 p-trap.

    Not following you let?

    I already purchased the urinal, $15 bucks, brand new, in the box.

    But still, I don't see the advantage of what you describe?

    I'm interested.
    Comments on this post
    Give yours Agree Disagree *Required*

    This is what I was telling you, when I told you in my first post how you could do what you were wanting to do others said it could not be done, so I just remarked that I see you found a way to do it.

    The rest was about a different kind of urnial that does not have an inside trap, I didn't know that you had already bought one.

    I glad that you have now have got you a uarnial, Keep it clean they have a tendeny to build up rock in the bottom of them from the minerals in urine.
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,824, Reputation: 1211
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    #20

    Feb 9, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Hi all...

    I wanted to pop in real quick and just state that I am not a fan of connecting into cleanouts in any way. I think connecting into a waste stack via a separate sanitary tee fitting is best, as Tom suggested.

    That being said, mancave, I run into situations where people just want to connect it all up much like you are doing here so I drew up a "better than nothing" scenario as you posted earlier.

    As I see it, all you present will work just fine for what you are doing. However, I am a bit concerned about the water supply. I'm wondering, ball valve or not, if you should install some kind of a backflow preventer or a vacuum breaker... hmmm..? Thinkin' we don't want any urinal water to backflow into your home drinking water.

    I'm figurin' that may be why you can't find the spring loaded type shutoff too easily... no backflow prevention... ;)

    Anyway, Tom, Milo, Lee... what are your thoughts on backflow here?

    Thanks guys...

    MARK

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