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ScottT · Mar 6, 2008, 05:06 AM

My sump pump drainage system was not set up correctly. The 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe runs outside the house, into the ground, and is connected to the storm sewer. I understand it is supposed to drain into a larger pipe (3 or 4 inches) which would allow an air space and more room.

Since there is no air venting in the system, every time the pump operates, an airlock or vacuum is created when the water tries to escape to the street. This results in terribly loud noises around my pump as the system is gasping for air to fill the vacuum.

Some plumbers have suggested that I replace the 1 1/2 inch pipe outside my house with the larger 3 or 4 inch pipe. This involves excavation and much expense. I am looking for a cheaper solution.

Everything about the 1 1/2 inch pipe I have works, except for the vacuum that is created. I am looking for a product or idea that will allow all the water to get through the pipes, and then allow for air to get in when the pump stops to break the vacuum. Is there such a product or quick fix for this problem?

massplumber2008 · Mar 6, 2008, 05:49 AM

Hey Scott... I think I understand your question.

I am wondering first if your sump pump has been hung properly and if there is a check valve or backflow preventer in the discharge line?

Also need to check if the 3/16 " hole has been drilled in the discharge pipe between the pump and the check valve...but still down in the pit so it does not spray out of the pit. I usually drill my hole in the pipe just above the pump body. Go to: Zoeller Pump Company ...manufacturer of submersible sump pumps for dewatering, effluent, sewage and grinder applications, home improvement products, and pump sizing software. if you want to learn more about the hole (unless your pump discharge has one drilled already) and sump pumps in general.

The purpose of this hole is to prevent air lock which, if occurs, can stop pump from pumping/discharging water properly (sounds like you may be experiencing some of this?? )

Now, I am not sure if this is a fix all... sounds like you had a few guys out to look... and I'll tell you, if they say larger is needed... it probably is. But check on the 3/16" hole. ALL sump pumps that I know of (with check valve on) need to have this hole.

I am wondering if this will help water flow better.

Any chance you can post a pic. Of the pump & check valve? I like the union type backflow preventer better than the cast iron type (see pic.)... was thinking if you replaced the check valve and hung pipes better AND MADE SURE HOLE is present.. that may improve things. Get back to us with thoughts/pics. Thank you.

speedball1 · Mar 6, 2008, 05:58 AM

I was having a problem trying to picture a discharge line, which is under pressure, creating a vacuum as it drains. Until I realized that the street storm sewer had to be lower then the discharge line so that when the sump pump quit the water draining down to the street sets up a vacuum doing so.
HEY! This is a simple venting problem.

Some plumbers have suggested that I replace the 1 1/2 inch pipe outside my house with the larger 3 or 4 inch pipe. This involves excavation and much expense. I am looking for a cheaper solution.

I'm amazed that your plumbers didn't realize that and suggest cutting a tee into the discharge line and installing a AAV,( Automatic Air Vent) such as a Studore Vent, (see image). The AAV would remain closed while the sump pump was discharging but as soon as the pump stopped and the vacuum began the AAV would open up and vent the line. Sound like a plan? Good luck, Tom

ScottT · Mar 6, 2008, 06:31 AM

THanks speedball1,

This sounds like what I need. When I look at the Studor products online, it says they are not supposed to be exposed to outdoor elements. This would need to be installed outdoors. Is there a product like this for outdoor use?

speedball1 · Mar 6, 2008, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by ScottT

THanks speedball1,

This sounds like what I need. When I look at the Studor products online, it says they are not supposed to be exposed to outdoor elements. This would need to be installed outdoors. Is there a product like this for outdoor use?

Since the sump pump's located in the basement That's where I would install the vent. If the discharge line's under the floor line I would cut in a tee and run a raiser up to just over the floor line and install the AAV on the raiser. Good luck, Tom

Liz Schindler · Jul 7, 2009, 04:44 PM

I am about a year late for this thread but found it in searching for a solution to my sump pump noises problem.

I want to purchase an AAV and saw that Studore products were recommended but was wondering if there were any other cheaper products out there. I think the one I need from Studore would run about $60.

Am also hoping to install this myself, I would rate my layman plumbing skills at a 3 1/2 out of 5, is this as straigt forward a project as I think it is? I just cut the pvc pipe above my pit, glue in a t-section and put on the valve, right? My only concern would be that the sewer pipe it's connected to would drain back once I cut the pipe.

Again, very late to this thread but hoping I get a reply.

Thanks.

Liz

tufis05 · Apr 25, 2013, 09:00 PM

Today, to try to fix a problem with slow drainage of my sump pump hose after pumping stops, I did the following, outside of the house.

1) I put a PVC "T" fitting into the discharge pipe just about a foot outside the house. The opening faces up.

2) I put a sump pump check valve into the tee opening, but upside down, so that it is open (for air) when pumping stops, and closed when the pump runs. Be sure the check valve flap opens away from the house (in the direction of flow), so that pumping forces it to close! This allows air pressure to allow the hose to drain quickly.

3) I added a PVC 180' fitting to the top of the check valve so that the opening to the check valve is not facing skyward and hopefully will stay clear.

This addition is to insure that the sump hose in the yard drains quickly after pumping stops. Seems to be working just fine. Total cost was around $20. Of course this whole thing is predicated on pumping slightly downhill. Best of luck.

theKiwi · Nov 4, 2015, 09:02 PM

tufis05 - how is this working out for you?

I am looking to cure a similar problem with my sump pump - it's in the basement, and pumps from the sump, up almost 8', then a jig and a jog to get through the sill plate to outside and then it drops about 4' down underground and then runs 120' away across the yard downhill.

In the past there would be enough suction in the water flowing that it would crack open the non-return valve on the spare pump which sits above the normal water level, but that isn't always the case, so the entire 140' or so of pipe stays full of water. Our sump water has bacterial rust in it, and that slowly sediments out in the 2" PVC pipe and chokes it down so that it becomes harder for the pump to pump through it. I've spent 4 hours today with a drain auger trying to clean this pipe out - got lots of rusty crap out of it and the flow is much improved, but I'm looking for some way to let air into the pipe at its highest point so that the outside pipe drains out to almost empty.

So did your system work? I already have a tee outside the house - put there to allow cleaning access into the house and the run underground, and was thinking of something like you did, sitting up on say a 4' extension to try and let air in so the pipe can drain.

Thanks!

Roger

Milo Dolezal · Nov 5, 2015, 04:24 AM

theKiwi:

Sump Pump should not push water all the way to the street. It should push water up to the highest point of discharge - and from there, water should flow by gravity. For proper flow, you will need larger diameter pipe. Your current 2" set up will not work over 120' of developed length.

You have 2 options:

1. Install 2" vent and terminate it above the roof edge. The vent should be installed on the 4" horizontal pipe. Use the 2" pipe from the pump to bring water to the highest point of discharge. From the highest point - and as your 2" discharge pipe turns horizontal - use 4" drainage pipe with slope of no less than 1/8" per foot. From this point on, water will drain by gravity.

2. Same as above, but no vent. You can install several yard drains with grates along the way of your 120' of drainage pipe. This will serve dual purpose: will act as vent for your drainage pipe and also will accept rain water when needed.

Hope that helps

Milo

hkstroud · Nov 5, 2015, 05:42 AM

Milo, you said,

1. Install 2" vent and terminate it above the roof edge.

Why? This is not a sewer drain.

I say install an AAV vent outside, as close to the highest point as possible.

theKiwi · Nov 5, 2015, 05:34 PM

hkstroud:

How much pressure will an AAV hold? - i.e. while the pump is pumping, it needs to stay closed as the pump pressure works to push water down the pipe.

That's why I was curious about tufis05's solution of using a non-return valve "the wrong way around" to hold the water in the pipe while the pump is working, and then let air in when the pump shuts off and the water runs downhill.

Milo:

When the pipe leaves the house it goes 4' (approx) under ground, and runs downhill at a lesser slope than grade so that at the end it discharges into a kind of a water garden/bog area about 1' below ground.

We're in Michigan so preventing the pipe freezing is a factor, and drain grates on a pipe just below ground level aren't going to let that happen.

This is the system I inherited when we bought this house. I did later find that the original owners seemed to have had trouble with this pipe in the past - when I was trenching a 4" drain pipe from the house to the same area for the gutters and downspouts, I ran across an earlier smaller PVC pipe in the ground.

Right now my 2" line and the 4" drain are near each other, but not connected.

Thanks

Roger

Milo Dolezal · Nov 5, 2015, 08:35 PM

Harold, water flow doesn't differentiate between sewer discharge or grey water discharge. In both cases, it is liquid draining down the slope. Displacement takes place. To assure proper drainage, you need air intake behind the flow. That's why I suggested vent.

theKiwi · Nov 5, 2015, 09:22 PM

Milo - my concern with just using a vent is that when the pump comes on, water will shoot out of the top of it, unless I make it higher than the head that the pump can generate. And off hand I'm not sure what that is. I guess I could connect a pipe to the tee I have at the outside wall and see what happens.

The idea of a non-return valve or an AAV if it can hold the pressure inside the pipe until the pressure gets to zero (relative to air pressure) seems more appealing.

Roger

hkstroud · Nov 5, 2015, 09:36 PM

Don't know what the maximum pressure an AAV would withstand. Certainly should be more than a sump pump could generate.

A weak spring holds the valve closed, water pressure would make it seal tighter. A negative water pressure pulls the valve open and lets air in so the water can drain.

You keep referring to a non return valve. What do you mean? Do you mean a check valve? A check valve would prevent water in the pipe from being siphoned back into the sump pump. This would happen because the pump is lower than the discharge end of the drain line (I presume) if there is no check valve or AAV.

An AAV valve would do the same thing as Milo's vent pipe without having to go to the roof.

theKiwi · Nov 5, 2015, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

Don't know what the maximum pressure an AAV would withstand. Certainly should be more than a sump pump could generate.

A weak spring holds the valve closed, water pressure would make it seal tighter. A negative water pressure pulls the valve open and lets air in so the water can drain.

Thanks - I've found my nearest Home Depot has a couple there for around $20 - and Oatey Sure Vent and a Studor Mini Vent. I'll go get one of them in the next day or so and put it on the pipe just outside the wall before it drops into the ground and see what happens.

Thanks

Roger

theKiwi · Nov 6, 2015, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

You keep referring to a non return valve. What do you mean? Do you mean a check valve?

Yes - non return valve = check valve in what I wrote.

I was referring to what tufis05 had written about his/her installation of a "sump pump check valve into the tee opening, but upside down".

Sorry - I guess it's a language thing - it was always referred to as a non-return valve in New Zealand where I'm from.

Roger

hkstroud · Nov 6, 2015, 10:16 AM

OK, now understand. You are "down under".

theKiwi · Nov 6, 2015, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

OK, now understand. You are "down under".

Well I was until 1993 - I've lived in Michigan since then :-)

Roger

hkstroud · Nov 6, 2015, 03:54 PM

Now you are "over the top"

theKiwi · Nov 8, 2015, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

Now you are "over the top"

And here's my "over the top" solution in place - seems to be working OK...

I already had the tee fitted in to the line just outside the house wall - I'd taken out the elbow that was there and put the tee in a few years ago so I could get a drain augur into the pipe both down stream and back in to the house to clean the line out - it was filling with the rusty sediment from the bacterial rust that seeps into the sump. So I bought the Oatey Sure Vent at Home Depot yesterday for $20 and put it into the fitting today. The extra pipe is to:

1 - get it above the dryer vent to try and keep dust out of it
2 - make it a bit higher so that in the winter it doesn't disappear under the snow

Seems to work - after the pump stops I hear the valve open and water drains out of the pipe.

I have spent 15 minutes trying to upload a couple of images, but every time I try it says "Upload Failed" - not sure what that's about...