Hi,
First off, let me say, please that I always appreciate those of you well-meaning who not only consider my latest question but also look back into my history. For me right now it doesn't mater how my current pattern developed, it's just that I need the healthy person's viewpoint so I can see what I don't see myself right now. So, please, this time, stay with me only at the matter at hand. I need some healthy insight here as soon as possible! Thanks.
Here is a problem about me that I have isolated/identified: I have discovered that when I am in a situation where I am trying to be nice, kind, loving and trusting, and I ask someone I love to do something for me and I even make it clear that the reason I am asking them is that I am overwhelmed at the moment with too many pressing responsibilities on my own plate, if I get backtalk, whining, or the person I've asked simply doesn't do what I've asked, I find that I feel helpless. I know I can't make someone else do something, I feel I can only ask. I'm not the type to yell and scream and demand/order someone to do it, but I have once in a blue moon been pushed to this point, but felt awful afterwards, as... ok, some past history here... abuse/yelling/hitting were my own childhood. And, I suppose there is even a level within my own mind where I feel as if, if you loved me, and I've asked you and told you why/how important it is to me, you'd do it. If you don't, perhaps you don't love me. And I know I knee jerk react to not being loved (ok, past brought in here again, I know... ) by isolating myself from the pain of not being loved by pushing the person who hurt me away.

That has worked in the case of the people I can identify who have physically abused me. (Brother, boyfriend, etc.) They SHOULD be pushed away, and I've done just that, feel great about it.

But, here I am talking about my young daughter. Age 10. I ask her to do a chore that she is 100% capable of doing independently and she sees I am already doing a half dozen physically demanding chores around our home already. She will back talk. Ok. I know, she's a kid. So, of course, I tell her she isn't to back talk, it's disrespectful. So she whines. Yes, she's a kid. I clarify to her that I'm not asking her anymore, I'm telling her to do the chore. And there is a consequence involved. No TV and/or she won't get her allowance while her brother who is doing his chore will get his allowance. Money is a big motivation at her age. But even that doesn't motivate her and she just doesn't do what I've asked, and I don't have time to sit and supervise her (she's 10 after all!) because I am clearly busy with all the other chores and her brother who's younger. I have tried to see that she's just wanting attention (even bad attention). But I point out to her that I already gave her lots of attention that morning and that when the chores are done that will free me up for more good attention of a game we'll play or movie we'll watch. And I move on again to my chores but by end of my day I discover she never did do what I'd asked of her, or she did it half-assed. (like filling one birdfeeder instead of the 2 she was asked). I have even chosen chores that are something we do together, thinking she wants more time just with Mom alone. That doesn't help. And what eventually (at end of a long day) happens is that the chore had to be done and I end up doing it myself.

I do know that perhaps what I need to do is make her 100% responsible forever and ever from the moment that I ask her. So that if she's in bed when I discover it didn't get done and there's school tomorrow, I still need to get her up to go do the chore come heck or high water. Which, of course, I am loathe to do (and she probably knows it, as you do in reading this) that getting her up to do it is one more thing I HAVE to do, when I am already bone tired, it's adding more again to my plate when I'm desperately trying to take a chore off my plate.

Please tell me the solution here. But, OK, if that is the solution, more work for me, now let me ask part 2.

My husband does the same thing. But in bigger, more important ways. For example, in 16 years of marriage he has never once lifted a finger to comprehend, keep records for, nor do our taxes. (I am constantly fishing receipts from his pockets. Trash, etc. to collect in a file when we need them and he gets upset when I shut down an idea he had to add employees to our business because I said it was a bookkeeping and tax challenge I didn't have the aptitude for but if he would take on that responsibility he could do it so he doesn't but he hires an accountant who surprised us with an outrageous bill we couldn't afford. So we quit the business simply because he wouldn't pick up his end of the responsibility and he resents that I didn't, and I feel guilty. He doesn't pay our bills, balance our checkbook, keep track of investments. Nor upkeep our vehicles, nor clean anything in a bathroom, nor do the myriad of responsibilities in raising our kids--from shopping for clothes every growth spurt to getting doctor/dentist appointments, getting school supplies, supplementing the school education with reading and projects, figuring out where to store photos of them, planning or packing for a vacation, nor feeding, watering, cleaning up after our pets, taking them to vet, keeping up on shots and baths (kids and pets). Each time we made a commitment to something in our joint married life--buy a car, get a dog, have kids, start a business, make an investment, buy a home, plant a garden--he has never had to add any more responsibility to his life. He goes to work comes home and has his time to do whatever he wants to do. His life is effectively the same now as when he was single, no pets, no kids, no house, no car, no business, no garden. The one thing I have in the past few years absolutely insisted are his sole responsibility are 2 horses he got. And he lest me know how much he resnts that I won't feed, water those 2 horses. They are right THERE, he'll say, how hard is it to throw feed and water to them? I am loaded with the guilt trip. But I have stood strng and it has contimnued to make him resnent me because I've stood strong. (This battle I am very motivated for. I'll tell you. Because if I'm going to feed and water them I am also going to check their feet and schedule a farrier and worm them and keep up on inoculations and fly spray. He just lets all that slide and once before they nearly foundered until I stepped in (couldn't stand the guilt of watching it anymore) and got the vet involved. One also got a severe crack in a hoof needing months of farrier repair. Another horse we had needed uveitis treated with eye ointments and pain meds daily (which I had to administer since at that time my husband was away from home on a job) then she got heaves as well and died in foaling since I knew little to nothing about horses and my hubby's attention was not on taking any responsibility to her. He was very very very upset and tells me he does feel guilty about that. But has he learned anything? I doubt it. And I feel the pain of how can he do that to an animal he loved? How can he do to me what he does if he loves me? What is wrong with us?

What I feel like is I ask him and I expect him to help with all these things. I have been so overwhelmed I've been in 2 deep depressions in past 6 years. I feel he is as immature as my daughter in just willy nilly deciding he doesn't have to (when I ask him, he tells me he doesn't know how and I point out that I, too, didn't know how at first but I had to learn. I offer to help him learn, but it's like having a 3rd kid. I don't have time to walk him through all the details that you just have to learn by doing it yourself. It was part of me growing up.) I feel like he's never grown up. And I feel the victim in, well, these responsibilities have to get done, so I have to be the mature responsible one who does them. How do I make him suffer the consequences without hurting myself?

And most importantly, how do I explain this in a Dale Carnegie positive way that will actually bring about changes for the good?

I have not read anything else you've posted (which you may now is simply not my style. I work in the legal profession and research is what I do - but I have honored your request).

Have you simply said, once, "This is what I expect from you." NO threats, no arguing, no asking twice - including the 10 year old. Whether your husband feels guilty at this point about the death of the horse is pretty much immaterial - I would sit him down and tell him what you have told us.

You are tired of being the only responsible person in the family. I realize someone has to keep the family afloat but I would be very clear about what I expect from him and I would ask him to be very clear about what he expects from you. One person is usually good where the other person is lacking so paying bills, whatever, may be more naturally the "job" of one rather than the other.

As far as the 10 year old - I would ask her to do the job once. I wouldn't follow her around, nag, criticize, argue or comment. At the end of the day I would tell her you are very tired from doing her job (whatever it was), she must be very tired, too, because she was apparently too tired to do what you asked - and so her bedroom just jumped forward an hour - and good night.

It worked fine with my stepchildren when they were small.

There is a great saying around where I live ' would you like to speak to the man in charge,or the women who knows what's happening'

You're the women who knows what's happening,you keep you shoulder to the grind and get the jobs done,you know what's going on with the house,bills,pets,kids,husband,business,shopping and the million other jobs you have in a day.

For all intents and purposes your in control of everything and sound like your overwhelmed.

Delegate: OK,I know your trying,how about givng your daughter a choice of chores,let her pick the chore and give her some power over how its done.

Example: cleaning out the kitchen cupboards,let her change it around,cleaning them out as she goes,then praise praise praise.

Your husband: time to talk to this man and remind him you're his wife not his mother,your partners,you love him but he's driving you nuts,what is he good at,what does he enjoy doing around the house,does he like DIY etc... get him to feel needed in the house,you can do everything,why does he need to be there,or help.

You: in all of your post there is no tiime for you,time to make time and let every one know. Example,on a Tuesday evening from 7 to 8 you will be going for a walk,a swim,at a friends house,taking an art course,does not matter what it is,but get out of the house and do something for you.

I do try to be very clear, but I am also polite. If it is to resort to arguing, I usually give up and do it myself (self-defeating, I know but I'm just plain tired. I can't understand why it is so hard to get soemone who loves you to want to gladly do what you have asked of them. I don't hesitate to help others... ) I do my best to explain exactly what it is I want done, when I need it done by, and I try very hard not to expect it done 'my way' just plain done at all by someone other than me. It is not in my nature to yell/threat/argue because it was so much done to me. (But on occasion I have gotten pushed to that point, not very often, but the kids know when mommy has finally had enough. I raise my voice seldom so, when I do, it gets noticed... not necessarily that it gets results, though... )

My God, YES. I admit I'm getting quite resentful of this fact. Which I don't want to do. I feel guilty for being resentful, feel that is destroying my family relationships. But more than anything I feel overwhelmed and helpless.

That is the argument my husband gives me about everything. He's just not detail oriented. His life experience is that maybe Mom and Dad hired someone else to do that (but we don't have the $ to afford to) but since he doesn't pay the bills he doesn't concern himself with that...

Fact is, though, although I have done all the responsibilities for the decisions we've jointly taken on, I also had no initial aptitude for most of them, I learned by the seat of my pants. I have done major veterinary procedures to replastering a house to starting a business to cleaning the toilets. Where did I enter with any particular skill? Most of it I don't even have a particular desire to do. When does he have to do that?

He likes to bake bread. Yea for me. Yea for all of us. I brag about ti my girlfriends. But the other day he said he wished I'd help him with that, too. That he hates how I refuse to help him (not with the creative part--as he enjoys doing that part--but with the 'production' part of forming the balls to correct size for his pitas.) I see it as an attempt to drag me into another responsibility and cut him more slack. He lays a guilt trip on me about it regularly. I refuse to buy into the pressure and remain steadfastly a non-bread baker. And I explain why. That I simply want him to be 100% responsible for something. (Anything!) And since I can live without homemade bread, I see no reason to say it's a 'joint' decision where I'd need to commit to half the responsibility. It's his sole decision. And yet the truly 'joint' decisions we've made (having kids, buying a fixer-upper home, for example) he doesn't take anywhere near 3% of the responsibility for and yet sees no problemo in that.

He actually said to me the other day he resents I've gotten "a free ride" (his exact words) the last few years being a stay at home mom with our kids. He means that he earns most if not all of our income. (He works contract to contract, and can, in fact, be home for 3-6 months with no work at all.) He seems to forget I worked up to the day I gave birth and returned to work for 3 months afterward taking my daughter in tow only 3 days after she was born, until she couldn't just sit an a crib while I worked. I also have operated an at-home business and had to hire a babysitter occasionally when I had a large production order to fill (which he resented), but of course all the responsibilities of life I get no credit for. And I also sell stuff on line or at yard sales to pay for unexpected bills he generates.

I feel like invisible mom. And yet, I feel it is MORE than that...

What is this male/female, mom/dad, husband/wife venus/mars thing we have going on?

By the way, he is seeing a counselor. He told me she asked him what is the one thing he most wants to say to me? And that was his free ride statement. And evidently she didn't discuss that with him much at all. Did she see nothing wrong with him thinking I'm taking a free ride?

I will address the child, you tell them what to do, once, maybe twice, if they don't they are punished, you are not their friend, you are not their buddy, you are a parent, in latter years, you can be a friend and set on the porch together drinking ice tea. For now you have to make them obey, teach them lessons on life and responsibility.

You may have to take every thing they own away, so they are sleeping in a bear room to get their attention.

If your husband feels you are getting a "free ride" this is not as simple as it once sounded.

Have you tried some sort of marriage counselling?

At that point my "try to stay calm" face would have changed to my "what did you just say?" face.

My life didn't come with an instruction book. Nobody gave me a course in how to have kids or be married. My own parents have both passed away, as have my in-laws. Not knowing what is 'normal' or 'healthy' since I came from an abusive homelife, I suppose where we are now is a point at which we need to re-negotiate our marriage. (past due)

I recall a time when we were first dating/engaged, I loved how he cooked/baked and I promised him I would always clean up after him in the kitchen when he did his creative cooking (even though I, myself, cook, anything I can make in one pan with one spoon, whereas he uses everything in the kitchen to create stuff, as a chef, not just a cook.) And I appreciated his efforts and told him so by promising to clean up after him. Probably a few years after we had the kids, though, I no longer cleaned up after him and he noticed it and complained about it, resented it. But, I am a realist. I knew we had to renegotiate things to clear the air of resentment/broken promises. I sat him down and explained that I had too many other responsibilities now. I wasn't just a carefree single girl loving her fiance's cooking. If he was going to cook and make a huge mess, he'd have to clean it up, too. If he didn't like cleaning up, he could learn how to cook in one pot/pan like I did. That wasn't an option to him, I didn't think it would be, but it also wasn't an option for me to continue my promise to clean his huge mess every time. [unless he wanted to breastfeed a baby and read to a toddler and teach her words and signs and give baths (he said giving the kids baths made his back hurt) and paint the back room and lay a stone path in our garden.] Rather I cook for us and clean my own small mess. Consequently, he cooks rarely, still makes big messes, but I work around them until he gets them cleaned. Occasionally, if I am feeling energetic, I do still clean something's. But, if you were to ask him about it, he'd say he can't believe I get the great cooking and I don't feel guilty about not cleaning up for him. Like why don't I help him bake bread since I enjoy his bread/brag about it so much?

I dearly don't want to think I'm just married to a big jerk. But, how do I genuinely get him to renegotiate our marriage responsibilities if he always carries reentm,ent when he takes n a respsonsibility? Is he like my 10 year old whingand throwing a tantrum? Both of them are too old for that. What am I doing to perpetuate this? (other than staying with him--which is what is mostly in my old posting history--people advise me to leave him. But I feel he's worth the effort. He's recognized he has a past he doesn't want to go back and repeat, But he's at a loss as to what he wants to become in the future, and I am in wait mode, as well. If what he wants to be is more responsible, I'll stay. If what he wants is his own free ride, that's his choice. It's also my free choice to know that's not what I want/need. I am indeed prepared to leave, but had hesitated to bring that up here. I'd like to jump in now and renegotiate the future we can have together.

What would a counselor tell us?

None of us were handed instruction books. I buried a husband. Nobody told me why that happens or how to get over it.

A counsellor could hopefully tell you how to deal with things in a fashion which is less upsetting to you. As I said - I haven't read your old posts (at your request) so I don't know what the past history is.

I do know that only you know why you stay. I would guess that it's because you love him and want to stay. Now the question is how to deal with his "quirks" (for lack of a better word). It's easy for people to tell you to go. It's not so easy when you are in a relationship and would like to hold onto it.

If there were past problems maybe a third person can hear both sides (and there always are two sides) and put the problems to rest once and for all.

And as far as jerks - sometimes I'm a jerk. Sometimes my husband is a jerk. As long as we aren't both jerks at the same time we'll survive.

You really need to step up here.

Nobody can take advantage of you, unless you allow it to happen. No wonder your daughter treats you the ways she does- she sees her father do it all the time.

First your daughter. Prepare a chart. Stick it on the fridge. List a chore that she has to do every single day. Start slow. Maybe on Monday, simply put, 'make your bed'. When she has done that, add, 'take out garbage' on the next week's calendar. Because the needs of those that live in the house will change from week to week, prepare the calendar in advance with that in mind. She is old enough to do many things.

I know you agree with that, right? So how do you make her. What you do is tell her that if she cannot at least make her bed in the morning, then she can clean up the dog poo in the yard. Give her a choice. Make the bed, or clean up the dog poo. This is why I say, one chore established at a time.

If she digs her heels in, and doesn't make the bed or clean up the dog poo, tell her that you will do it, but she will pay you with her allowance. You may think that it doesn't matter to her, but it does at that age, and if she misses her allowance, and you don't give in, she will make the bed, or clean up the dog poo.

When you break through that defiant attitude, add another simple task to the calendar as I said for the following week. Same rules, with an alternative (maybe horse poo this time), again, the loss of an allowance. Hmmmm this is really starting to cost her, and you are doing what you say with consequences. She will catch on.

Don't coddle her, feel guilty, or help her. You defeat the purpose of teaching her not only to respect the house rules because she lives there, but self esteem, responsibility, and pride in doing a simple job. Letting this go will turn her into an adult who expects life to hand her all she wants without learning to work for it. Entitlement attitude I think that's called.

Put your abusive past in the past and stop making excuses for why you allow yourself to be a doormat. Stop being a hero, and step up and take control.

As to your husband, he would get ultimatums from me. If he chooses not to tend to the horses, you will sell them. Period. Give him a time frame- say two weeks. If the horses are not tended to, sell them, or give them away to someone who will take care of them.

Write him a letter. List all the things you do, without pay, for him, and the family. It should be a very long list. Keep it simple and to the point, but include all of it. The pee you clean up on the toilet rim and floor, scrubbing the toothpaste out the sink, the appointments, school chores (detail this too), and all the responsibilities you have, and at the moment, do.

Then, add a second list to match the first. And tick off where he contributes, or put an 'x' where he doesn't.

Insist on going to counselling with him to address the overall result, which is the imbalance in the relationship and the marriage, and the distribution of responsibilities within the home. Particularly as it relates to the damage, yes damage, he is doing to the development of your daughter, who also feels she needn't contribute.

The thing with change is that it is very hard to do. To go from doing nothing to doing something, has to come with a realization that it is fair. To just do it to make you happy, or stop the nagging, is still not getting the point across.

Just like your daughter, expect him to also do at least one chore next week. The following week, add another chore. He's acting like a spoiled 10 year old, so treat him like one. He should be embarrassed at having to be told to feed his horses.

Demand some respect and don't settle for you not contributing anything, because when you take that garbage from anybody, it ruins yourself esteem and takes away your personal power to be in charge of your life.

You have to get tough, and stick to it.

Hey, one last question, does anyone here think my husband is being what they call passive aggressive? (I tried to look up entitlement attitude)

Generally speaking, a 'sense of entitlement' is like being Prince William, knowing and expecting to be entitled to become the King of England. No matter what he does, and doesn't do, he will have the wealth and status of being King.

I see kids with the same sense of entitlement. They expect, and receive, cell phones, cars, designer clothing, $100 haircuts, elaborate birthday parties, laptops, etc. etc. and none of it was earned. It was all expected, without any work. For some reason over the years, the value of developing a work ethic has become second to providing anything and everything to keep a kid happy.

A person who is passive aggressive is a person who holds their anger in, and are expressed in passive ways as, for example, by stubbornness, sullenness, procrastination, etc.

This might be something to bring up during counselling. Not necessarily of him being passive aggressive, but the traits that he displays when you try to get him involved and helping, particularly with your daughter.

Entitlement attitude would come under narcissitic personality,

Here is some info on the type of person the narcissist is, or how they operate.

There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship.

I always have the problem that I get fed up and stay away from THEM long enough to forget exactly what the trouble was, then they come around again, and every narcissist I've known actually was quite lovable about half the time so I try it again. A clue: Run for cover when they start acting normal, maybe expressing a becoming self-doubt or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven't treated you right or that they took advantage of you before.

They're just softening you up for something really nasty. These people are geniuses of "Come closer so I can slap you." Except that's not the way they think about it, if they think about it -- no, they're thinking, "Well, maybe you do really care about me, and, if you really care about me, then maybe you'll help me with this," only by "help" they mean do the whole thing, take total responsibility for it, including protecting and defending them and cleaning up the mess they've already made of it (which they will neglect to fill you in on because they haven't really been paying attention, have they, so how would they know? ).

They will not have considered for one second how much of your time it will take, how much trouble it may get you into in their behalf, that they will owe you BIG for this -- no, you're just going to do it all out of the goodness of your heart, which they are delighted to exploit yet again, and your virtue will be its own reward: it's supposed to just tickle you pink to be offered this generous opportunity of showing how much you love them and/or how lucky you are to be the servant of such a luminous personage. No lie -- they think other people do stuff for the same reason they do: to show off, to perform for an audience. That's one of the reasons they make outrageous demands, put you on the spot and create scenes in public: they're being generous -- they're trying to share the spotlight with you by giving you the chance to show off how absolutely stunningly devoted-to-them you are. It means that they love you; that's why they're hurt and bewildered when you angrily reject this invitation.^

The narcissist always goes through life with the air of entitlement and expects others to do most everything for them and believe that it's their god given right to be this way. Admittedly your partner may not be a full blown narcissist but there are tendencies based on what you have written.

He could also be an enabler to your daughters attitude. Plus I think she is mimicking him too.

JMO

Victim/persecutor/rescuer.

The drama triangle.

Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps this will allow you to look further into your roll in this relationship.

Hope to hear back from you about this.Discussion is welcomed:)