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    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
    Junior Member
     
    #1

    Mar 4, 2005, 09:08 AM
    Understanding:
    Why should people believe that all religious understanding is relative and that no one interpretation is absolute?

    HANK :confused:
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #2

    Mar 4, 2005, 10:03 AM
    Hey HANK,

    Do you ever return back to threads that you start?
    Are you a bot?
    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
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    #3

    Mar 4, 2005, 01:29 PM
    Karma:
    A reductionist philosophy easily ignites heated debate.

    HANK :D
    keenu's Avatar
    keenu Posts: 114, Reputation: 9
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    #4

    Mar 5, 2005, 05:34 AM
    Understanding is relative, too.
    Because, Hank, everything is relative. We create our own reality and everyone's path is different. Yes, we are all one, but we are each individual expressions of that one and we each have our own belief system. People tend to confuse religion with spirituality. Religion is contrived and spirituality is natural. Religion was created by man and has rules and regulations and cannot, indeed should not, be adhered to by everyone. If a person is really interested in learning what life is really all about they should get away from religion and open their minds. Religion holds no answers. It is vague and based on fear and the unknown. It is obviously ridiculous. Amazingly so, like a big green and purple monster.
    coach438's Avatar
    coach438 Posts: 5, Reputation: 2
    New Member
     
    #5

    Mar 8, 2005, 05:11 PM
    Really Keenu?
    For a relativist, you certainly use a lot of absolute sentences, beginning with the first sentence! When you say, "everything is relative," do you mean that relatively or absolutely?
    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
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    #6

    Mar 8, 2005, 07:30 PM
    Speculation:
    Coach:

    Perhaps Keenu means everything is absolutely relative.

    HANK :D
    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,926, Reputation: 674
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    #7

    Mar 9, 2005, 07:37 AM
    Religion
    Hi,
    Keenu says religion is obviously ridiculous!
    I am a Christian, with religious beliefs, and everyone, naturally is intitled to their own opinion.
    Prayer is THE most powerful force in the Universe; and if one hasn't tried it for very long, then they wouldn't understand.

    Why should people believe that no one interpretation is absolute?
    Because there are too many churches, too many interpretations of the Bible.

    It all comes down to one basic belief; either you believe in God and Prayer, or you don't. All else is a matter of choice; but there must be belief.

    Just for information:
    If you wish to add or subtract from an Experts' reputation, or show appreciation or discontent with an answer, click on the "balance scales" icon by the Experts' name. You can then choose what you wish.

    Best wishes,
    fredg
    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
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    #8

    Mar 9, 2005, 02:30 PM
    James 1:2-4:
    "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverence must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

    How true... how true!

    HANK :D
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #9

    Mar 9, 2005, 02:47 PM
    Hank,

    Do you have any original thoughts or do you always answer by quoting others?
    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
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    #10

    Mar 10, 2005, 07:20 AM
    To needkarma:
    Go to Members List and click on HANK. Check my 18 posts. Then get back to me... with egg on your face! You seem to be a wiseguy! Don't fool with me!

    HANK :)
    keenu's Avatar
    keenu Posts: 114, Reputation: 9
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    #11

    Mar 10, 2005, 04:58 PM
    Relative or Absolute?
    Quote Originally Posted by coach438
    For a relativist, you certainly use a lot of absolute sentences, beginning with the first sentence! When you say, "everything is relative," do you mean that relatively or absolutely?
    Well, I believe that everything is relative to the individual and that nothing is absolute. Very simple statements that most people cannot quite grasp, intellectually nor spiritually. We each create our own reality and all is relative to the belief system of each individual. I appreciate intelligent feedback and discourse, it is a cool breeze infrequently experienced.
    keenu's Avatar
    keenu Posts: 114, Reputation: 9
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    #12

    Mar 10, 2005, 05:05 PM
    Choice
    Quote Originally Posted by fredg
    Hi,
    Keenu says religion is obviously ridiculous!
    I am a Christian, with religious beliefs, and everyone, naturally is intitled to their own opinion.
    Prayer is THE most powerful force in the Universe; and if one hasn't tried it for very long, then they wouldn't understand.

    Why should people believe that no one interpretation is absolute?
    Because there are too many churches, too many interpretations of the Bible.

    It all comes down to one basic belief; either you believe in God and Prayer, or you don't. All else is a matter of choice; but there must be belief.

    Just for information:
    If you wish to add or subtract from an Experts' reputation, or show appreciation or discontent with an answer, click on the "balance scales" icon by the Experts' name. You can then choose what you wish.

    Best wishes,
    fredg
    Hi, Fred, fellow Answerway expert!
    ALL is choice. I choose not to believe in a god and that is my choice.
    You say prayer is the most powerful force in the universe...
    This does NOT necessitate a belief in a god. One doesn't have to pray to a god for their positive thoughts to help others.
    Daniel Herring's Avatar
    Daniel Herring Posts: 21, Reputation: 2
    New Member
     
    #13

    Mar 15, 2005, 10:19 PM
    Here's a thought
    Wouldn't it be funny, if you got all the way to Heaven only to discover that God's first name is Murphy?

    If you ask circular questions, then stop for a moment, does your world still spin?

    I don't need to tell you that the questions you ask need not be re-answered.
    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
    Junior Member
     
    #14

    Mar 16, 2005, 07:18 AM
    Liberal:
    Appreciation lies at the core of the notion in our language of 'respect.' Invoking the notion of 'respect' is sometimes easier to do than either acting on it in concrete situations or UNDERSTANDING its ethical and social implications.

    HANK :eek:
    HANK's Avatar
    HANK Posts: 98, Reputation: 5
    Junior Member
     
    #15

    Mar 16, 2005, 09:14 AM
    Funny... Maybe!
    What would be even funnier would be to reach Heaven and find out there IS a God! I haven't a doubt!

    HANK :D
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
    Junior Member
     
    #16

    May 16, 2005, 04:27 PM
    What would be even funnier would be to reach Heaven and find out there IS a God! I haven't a doubt!
    May I ask why you say there is no God? Have you taken a serious look at the Bible? Do not judge the Bible on the basis of those who profess to respect it but who expose their hyprocrisy through their actions!

    I also think that a common sense look at the world shows that there is no logical explanation other than the existence of a powerful, loving and wise Creator. I think it requires more faith to believe it all happened by chance than to accept the existence of a Creator.

    I cannot understand how anyone can believe that the human eye developed by chance over time...
    psi42's Avatar
    psi42 Posts: 599, Reputation: 13
    Senior Member
     
    #17

    May 16, 2005, 06:12 PM
    I usually don't weigh in on these kind of discussions, but the recent nonsense in Topeka has whetted my interest in such things...

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisl
    I think it requires more faith to believe it all happened by chance than to accept the existence of a Creator.

    I cannot understand how anyone can believe that the human eye developed by chance over time...
    But evolution by natural selection is _not_ "random chance." It is not a succession of random mutations, but the cumulative effect of those mutations in relation to the environment, that is important in the long run.

    If a change is advantageous enough to allow a population to survive better in an environment than another population, then it will most likely be preserved.
    If a change is disadvantageous, it will most likely not be preserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://rock.geosociety.org/docs/criticalissues/ev_shermer.htm
    Natural selection is not "random" nor does it operate by "chance." Natural selection preserves the gains and eradicates the mistakes. The eye evolved from a single, light-sensitive cell into the complex eye of today through hundreds if not thousands of intermediate steps, many of which still exist in nature. In order for the monkey to type the first 13 letters of Hamlet's soliloquy by chance, it would take 26 to the power of 13 number of trials for success. This is 16 times as great as the total number of seconds that have elapsed in the lifetime of the solar system. But if each correct letter is preserved and each incorrect letter eradicated, the process operates much faster. How much faster? Richard Hardison constructed a computer program in which letters were "selected" for or against, and it took an average of only 335.2 trials to produce the sequence of letters TOBEORNOTTOBE. This takes the computer less than 90 seconds. The entire play can be done in about 4.5 days!


    Here's some questions for you:

    If your god does exist, why would he create the human eye as it exists today? The eye has many flaws. It can be easily damaged by mishap, high-intensity high-frequency light, lack of moisture, or malicious intent from another person. It can only detect a narrow portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is inefficient. If your god does exist, and Created everything to Glorify Himself, then why would he create something so obviously imperfect?

    Why do we need to eat or drink? This is imperfect, and requires the death of other organisms to fuel our bodies. If your god is omnipotent, surely he could create humans so as to be completely self-sufficient. Why would your god create something so obvioulsy imperfect?

    Why do we have sex? Seriously. Your god (or at least your Bible, which is another issue altogether), seems to prefer chastity in most cases, so I hardly think he created sex merely for pleasure. He also seems to prefer monogomy, so I don't think he would have created sex as the most efficient means of reproduction.
    The need for sex places several barriers in the way of procreation. Why would your god create something so obviously imperfect?


    Have you taken a serious look at the Bible?
    Why your Bible? How can you place so much weight on a book that has been translated and edited so many times you cannot even accurately state who its (human) writers were?

    Why your god? Why not some other god? There have been many gods in human history, why should your god be any more real than them? If your religion is right, all others _must_ logically be wrong, correct?

    I think HANK's intent in creating this thread was to ask how we can reconcile the social need for repect and understanding with this statement. It's sad this thread has wandered so far off course.
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
    Junior Member
     
    #18

    May 17, 2005, 05:53 AM
    I'm not looking to argue, just discuss. I used to think like you do until I took an open-minded look at the Bible. Like I said, don't judge the Bible by the teachings of people like Jerry Falwell or Creflo A. Dollar! Or Pope Benedict 16.0, for that matter.

    But evolution by natural selection is _not_ "random chance."
    But don't the mutations happen at random, with no intelligent direction? My point is, how likely is it that a series of random mutations would cumulatively produce the human eye? Or any other complex system? That takes a lot of faith to accept, In my opinion. Especially when there is precious little physical evidence to support it. Where is the broad spectrum of intermediate organisms? The fossil record should be THICK with such links, but it is not. It is a rare and special occasion when someone claims to find a jawbone that might be a new human "ancestor."

    The big question is, how is a partly-formed eye "advantageous" and worth keeping? Did some poor species of beast have a half-formed cornea hanging off their face? Would it not be a disadvantage, prone to infection and injury? And then eons later, by chance, the next mutation developed the optic nerve, which then had to wait until... Well, you get the idea. To me it is obvious that all of human experience and common sense argues against this. Science can theorize all they want but it doesn't overcome common sense.

    And how often has yesterday's scientific fact become today's discredited theory?

    If your god does exist, why would he create the human eye as it exists today? The eye has many flaws.
    Come on now, that's a bit extreme, isn't it? The eye is a miracle! To say the eye is inefficient is, I think, uninformed. Ask an optometrist if he would agree with your opinion. The eye is mind-bogglingly complex and man has yet to make a visual device that even comes close to it.

    I say that the eye is a marvelous gift from a loving Creator.

    Still, the Bible teaches that we are currently imperfect and the eye surely reflects that. But God has promised that mankind (and their eyes) will eventually be returned to perfection.

    Why do we need to eat or drink?
    It is another example of our Creator's loving kindness that we can enjoy food. Sure, we could have been sustained by some other means, but do you really argue that life would be better without the joy of eating?

    something so obviously imperfect
    On what basis do you profess to know what is perfect and what is not? Are your standards of perfection what everyone should accept? We are imperfect beings--for now--and we do well to recognize and accept our limitations.

    Why do we have sex?
    The Bible teaches that God provided sexual relations as a privilege of marriage. And yes, the Bible teaches that it is meant to be pleasurable. It also serves as a means to populate the earth. But the Bible teaches us to be responsible and the prohibitions on fornication are a protection. Consider all the heartache, broken families and even death that result from disregarding those guidelines. They are a loving protection to mankind, much like a father teaching a child the proper use of matches or a knife.

    most efficient means of reproduction
    Again, what is the basis for this claim? Do you know what would be the most efficient means? And why does it need to be efficient in the first place? Efficiency is not the overriding consideration in all things. Unless you believe in evolution, I guess. Maybe that's where you get that mindset...

    Anyway, your whole argument seems to be that God doesn't do things the way you think they should be done. That's not a strong basis for argument.

    Why your Bible? How can you place so much weight on a book that has been translated and edited so many times you cannot even accurately state who its (human) writers were?
    Because the Bible stands on its own as a unique book that contains overwhelming evidence that it is divinely inspired. Have you really looked at it with an open-mind? Or do you approach it with all the baggage of those who oppose it? Or even worse, those who claim to follow it but who distort its meanings? The Bible does not contradict proved science. I think the worst anyone can say is that it contradicts many theories. But in the past when science claimed that the Bible was wrong, the Bible's record of vindication is perfect. Did you know the Bible stated the earth was round centuries before mankind accepted it? (Isaiah 40:22) Or that the water cycle is described? (Isaiah 55:10) The Bible is not a science textbook, but it reveals astounding knowledge and understanding of the natural world far in advance of science. It is little things like this, added with unerring prophecy, that convinces me the Bible is authentic. Even Isaac Newton said he found more evidence of truth in the Bible than in any other work. If he thought it was accurate and worth a look, why don't you?

    Why your god? Why not some other god? There have been many gods in human history, why should your god be any more real than them? If your religion is right, all others _must_ logically be wrong, correct?
    In short, because my God--Jehovah--is the author of the Bible, and the Bible is reliable. I have come to understand the Bible and learned about Him from it. The Bible says there are other gods, but only one true God. He is the one I worship because he is the one who made me and everything I see.

    Regarding, the religions of mankind, what fruitage do you see in all of them that make you think they are all acceptable to God? You claim to be a logical person. What has been the fruitage of the followers of the world's religions? Do we have peace, or security? Surely you can't argue that all of mankind's religions are correct? Some have to be wrong. How do you tell? The Bible says to look at their fruitage, or the behavior of their adherents. That tells the whole story. Or at least, it did for me.

    Chris
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #19

    May 17, 2005, 06:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisl
    Surely you can't argue that all of mankind's religions are correct? Some have to be wrong. How do you tell? The Bible says to look at their fruitage, or the behavior of their adherents. That tells the whole story. Or at least, it did for me.

    Chris
    See that's the part I have a problem with. I have seen good and bad people of all religions. I have seen road rage by a guy with a Jesus fish on his car and I have seen extremely nice and sweet Islamic types. People are individuals not Catholics or Jews or Mormons.
    chrisl's Avatar
    chrisl Posts: 83, Reputation: 2
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    #20

    May 17, 2005, 08:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    See that's the part I have a problem with. I have seen good and bad people of all religions. I have seen road rage by a guy with a Jesus fish on his car and I have seen extremely nice and sweet Islamic types. People are individuals not Catholics or Jews or Mormons.
    Well, there are always going to be problems so long as we are imperfect. Even those genuinely trying to obey the Bible fail sometimes. But is it a practice (ie, their way of life) or is it a momentary failing? It's important to differentiate. The Bible teaches that even the faithful apostles had failings, misunderstandings and the usual human foibles--but they overcame them and stayed faithful rather than succumbed to them.

    But if such unscriptural behavior is a way of life, then their fruitage is condemning them.

    Remember that God does not expect literal perfection from imperfect mankind. That would be impossible. Psalm 103:14 reminds us:

    For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. (NKJV)

    He expects relative perfection, in the same way we might say that the new paint job on our car is "perfect." Of course if you get out a magnifying glass you will find blemished and imperfections, but everyone knows what was meant.

    Chris

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