[cogs]

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?

[N0help4u]

Exactly THE Church is a spiritual concept for any TRUE believers that come together.
It doesn't even have to mean a church or a building it can be a group of any true believers
Even if it is two or three gathered in a park. Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am in the midst.
Jesus was crucified by the religious and government officials reasoning that he was going against things they stood for. Much of the Church in Acts was believers meeting house to house.

[Fr_Chuck]

Catholic means universal, all of the early churches were tied together, though councils of the church, the original groups that meet are what became the Catholic and Orthodox chuches that we know today.

[cogs]

But back to the scripture, what's the interpretation for us?

[sndbay]

catholic means universal, all of the early churches were tied together, though councils of the church, the orginal groups that meet are what became the Catholic and Orthodox chuches that we know today.

The original posted statement is correct. The scripture was refer to Christ and how Our Father had revealed Truth of His Grace and Word to Peter, and not man of flesh and blood.

Note:The scripture has nothing to do with the catholic church. That is a concept the church developed for themself.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

I, I, I, "Jesus" confirmed the fact that Peter received the knowledge of Truth from the Father, and that Truth, that foundation, Peter would minister.

Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

By ministering the Truth of Jesus, this Truth has granted and brought forth the open door to heaven which is the key to heaven. ( Jesus is that key) All that is declared of Jesus in Truth is to be spead, brought forth on earth and in heaven. And whatsoever was declared of Christ is announced and laid out. Note: I will build my church. Jesus will build, Jesus opened the door, Jesus is the key.

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus gave the key to heaven when He was raised from the dead. Jesus gives His Life unto (all = church =membered body ) to be declared.

[Tj3]

Matt 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

What do we see here?

- Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a group
- The topic was "who is Jesus"
- Peter answered that he is the Messiah, son of the living God.
- Jesus does not immediately refer to Peter, but rather the fact that the revelation of the truth came from God the father.

The word Peter here is Petros, which means stone or a piece of a rock, and then Jesus refers to the "rock" which is the revelation of who he is, and states that His church shall be built upon this revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. The word "rock" here is Petra, which means rock, or a mass of rock. We do not build a building upon a piece of a rock or a stone, but rather upon a rock that is massive enough to provide a solid foundation. Jesus' choice of words made it clear which should be the foundation of His church.

It is interesting to note the consistency of scripture in the use of these terms, Rock and stone. Throughout scripture, the Rock is always God (Father or Son):

Deut 32:4
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.
NKJV

Deut 32:15
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
NKJV

Deut 32:18
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.
NKJV

Deut 32:30-31
30 How could one chase a thousand,
And two put ten thousand to flight,
Unless their Rock had sold them,
And the LORD had surrendered them?
31 For their rock is not like our Rock,
NKJV

2 Sam 22:47
47 "The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let God be exalted,
The Rock of my salvation!
NKJV

2 Sam 23:3
3 The God of Israel said,
The Rock of Israel spoke to me:
NKJV

Ps 18:46
46 The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
NKJV

Ps 28:1
To You I will cry, O LORD my Rock:
NKJV

Ps 42:9
9 I will say to God my Rock,
"Why have You forgotten me?
NKJV

Ps 95:1
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
NKJV

Ps 144:1
Blessed be the LORD my Rock,
NKJV

Isa 17:10
10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
NKJV

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

Hab 1:12
O LORD, You have appointed them for judgment;
O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
NKJV

1 Cor 10:4-5
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
NKJV

As for the stone, there is much less, but here is what we do find:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
NKJV

So, we are stones, but there are references to Jesus as a stone as well:

Rom 9:33
33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

He is both a Rock and a Stone. That is because he is the cornerstone:

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
NKJV

The cornerstone is in fact, a rock. So Jesus can be called a stone (cornerstone), but is more frequently called the Rock and even the reference to Him being a stone refers to a Rock (cornerstone). On the other hand, there is no reference in scripture anywhere of Peter being called a Rock. He is a stone, as we all are stone per 1 Peter 2:4-6. This may also be a reference to the fact that Jesus is both God (Rock) and man (stone), and is the sole person to hold such a distinction.

Jesus, as the Rock, is also the cornerstone, which is the most notable piece of the foundation, but the confession of Peter that Jesus is Christ is the foundation upon which the church will be built. We see this endorsed in scripture as well, later by Paul:

1 Cor 3:11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

So the foundation is Jesus, not Peter. A church built upon Jesus, and the revelation of the fact that he is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God is the church that will stand, not a church built upon a man.

[N0help4u]

IF the Catholic Church was meant to BE THE church then why didn't Jesus have it established during his life time? Why did he have Peter do that? AND why did it take 325 years after Peter IF Peter established it??

[De Maria]

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?

Jesus inquired of the disciples.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Simon responded.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus commends Simon for his response. Jesus says that Simon's response was inspired by God the Father.

Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Jesus then rewards Simon by designating Simon as His representative.

I believe TJ already listed all the times that God has been called the Rock in Scripture. By renaming Simon, "Peter", Jesus is designating him His representative.

This is not something new. God has assigned men to represent Him in the past. Chief amongst these representatives of God is Moses:

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:

This verse is what lets us know that the office of Peter is a continuing office. The keys designate an office of vicar. Let us compare to Isaias 22:22 where perhaps you will recognize the language.

22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And note the power that is associated with this office. God confirms in heaven, this man's decisions on earth.

I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?

I hope that helps you. The part about it being a physical entity on earth is found in Matt 18:17:

Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

If Christ's Church were not physical and therefore visible, one could not find it in order to resolve disputes.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

I believe TJ already listed all the times that God has been called the Rock in Scripture. By renaming Simon, "Peter", Jesus is designating him His representative.

That would be blasphemy for Peter to be called by a designation for God alone, and it is in fact not what is said in scripture.

[De Maria]

That would be blasphemy for Peter to be called by a designation for God alone, and it is in fact not what is said in scripture.

It would if you or I had made that designation. But Jesus is God incarnate. And God has done something similar before. He called Moses God.

[Tj3]

It would if you or I had made that designation. But Jesus is God incarnate. And God has done something similar before. He called Moses God.

It is YOUR claim that Jesus said that, but we do not find any such thing in scripture for Peter - or Moses.

[De Maria]

It is YOUR claim that Jesus said that, but we do not find any such thing in scripture for Peter - or Moses.

Here are the references again:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

[N0help4u]

Here is my question again if I go to Washington D. C. and sit in the Oval office does that make me the President?

[Tj3]

Here are the references again:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

The Rock is Jesus - scripture calls Peter a stone (except in the eyes of those who have not looked into the Greek)

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.[/I]

As I said before, get a better translation (and I note that you chose not to say what translation you use)

Here is a better translation:

Ex 7:1-2
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV

[savedsinner7]

Jesus is referring to Himself when He states that "upon this rock I will build my church." He builds us up in Him and upon His Truth. The church is the body of believers who obey Him.

[De Maria]

Here is my question again if I go to Washington D. C. and sit in the Oval office does that make me the President?

No.

But if God tells you that you are Rock and gives you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and tells you that what you lock He will lock and what you loose He will loose, and if you see that this is written in Scripture, will you believe Him?

Scripture tells us that Jesus said this of Simon. We believe Scripture.

[De Maria]

Jesus is referring to Himself when He states that "upon this rock I will build my church." He builds us up in Him and upon His Truth. The church is the body of believers who obey Him.

Not from the context. Jesus says, Simon, you are blessed of my Father, therefore you are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church.

Why would Jesus change subjects mid stream? Why would Jesus after declaring Himself the Rock, then go on to give Peter the keys and declare that he could lock and unlock?

Its obvious, that Jesus gave Simon the name that reflected the office which he was receiving. He renamed him Rock because Simon would now be Jesus' representative on this earth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

The Rock is Jesus - scripture calls Peter a stone (except in the eyes of those who have not looked into the Greek)

I don't dispute that. Jesus did call Peter the foundation stone or rock. Rock and stone mean the same thing.

Dictionary:
rock1
(rŏk) pronunciation
n.

1. Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone.
2.
1. A relatively small piece or fragment of such material.
2. A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak.
3. A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust.
rock: Definition, Synonyms and Much More from Answers.com

Dictionary:
stone
(stōn) pronunciation
antique stones
antique french limestone fireplaces architectural elements, fountains
Vieilles Pierres du Mellois
n.

1.
1. Concreted earthy or mineral matter; rock.
2. Such concreted matter of a particular type. Often used in combination: sandstone; soapstone.
2. A small piece of rock.
3. Rock or a piece of rock shaped or finished for a particular purpose, especially:
1. A piece of rock that is used in construction: a coping stone; a paving stone.
2. A gravestone or tombstone.
3. A grindstone, millstone, or whetstone.
4. A milestone or boundary.
stone: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

As you can see, a rock can be large, a stone can be large. A stone can be small, a rock can be small.

But it is Jesus who calls Simon a Rock, "Cephas":
John 1 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

As I said before, get a better translation (and I note that you chose not to say what translation you use)

You're the one floundering in your understanding of the Word. My dictionary is just fine.

Here is a better translation:

Ex 7:1-2
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV

And this helps your cause how? It still highlights that God sent a man to be His representative before men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

NKJV

That is like me saying to my kids


When mom said to her, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the boss."
And I said to them: You are my kids and ''upon this rock'' I will discipline you.
Meaning upon MY authority, I did not hand it over to them. I hand it on to them. I am STILL the Rock of their discipline.


Sigh: I do not know why you like to complicate the scriptures :confused:

[De Maria]

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

NKJV

That is like me saying to my kids


When mom said to her, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the boss."
And I said to them: You are my kids and ''upon this rock'' I will discipline you.
Meaning upon MY authority, I did not hand it over to them. I hand it on to them. I am STILL the Rock of their discipline.


Sigh: I do not know why you like to complicate the scriptures :confused:

It is you who are confusing your interpretations with Scripture. Lets look at your example again.

That is like me saying to my kids

No, you've changed it up.

When mom said to her, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the boss."

OK, so far.

And I said to them: You are my kids and ''upon this rock'' I will discipline you.

Here you changed it up.

For one, Jesus singled out the child that said "you are the boss" and gave that child a compliment, "I tell you you are blessed, flesh and blood did not reveal that to you but my father in heaven."

You didn't do that but instead immediately threatened them with discipline.

And Jesus went further. He then renamed that child. You are rock and upon this rock.

Whereas you said, you are "MY KIDS" and upon this rock I will discipline you.

Meaning upon MY authority, I did not hand it over to them. I hand it on to them. I am STILL the Rock of their discipline.

Yeah, and the context of your statement is clear.

And so is the context of Jesus blessing. Jesus said Simon you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my church. It follows logically that Jesus was talking to and about Simon.

To make your example fit the reality, your example should go something like this:
Child, you are so right and because you are right, I will give you an extra helping of ice cream.

Sincerely,

De Maria