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bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 08:46 AM

I'm not sure as to if this is the right topic to post this in. If a moderator needs to move this then by all means please do.

What are your thoughts on this:

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

What do you think should happen to the parents?

ScottGem · Mar 27, 2008, 08:47 AM

There have been similar cases before. The parents have been prosecuted for child abuse.

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 08:50 AM

Well in a very 'American' society of course this is considered child abuse but in a religious factor, what is this known as?

ScottGem · Mar 27, 2008, 08:59 AM

The courts (at least in the US) have ruled that religious observances are secondary to the health and welfare of an individual.

NeedKarma · Mar 27, 2008, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

The courts (at least inthe US) have ruled that religious observances are secondary to the health and welfare of an individual.

It's the same in Canada.

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 09:54 AM

I thought this was very disturbing.

NeedKarma · Mar 27, 2008, 09:58 AM

It is. I feel the same way when Jehovah Witnesses refuse life saving blood transfusions for their children. :(

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 10:00 AM

I am a relgious person and all but when it's a near death siutation, I turn more to the professionals while praying for those to get better.

I balance religion and reality.

NeedKarma · Mar 27, 2008, 10:10 AM

Of course this could turn into a different discussion altogether. If you truly believe that your god listens to prayer and is all powerful, all knowing then you would be justified in praying and letting god answer your prayers to save that soul. Otherwise you are saying that praying or an all-seeing all-powerful god may not be 100% correct i.e.. Doubt.

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 10:12 AM

No, I meant that while getting medical help, I would pray as well. I wouldn't call it doubt but just being human and we depend on each other to survive.

ScottGem · Mar 27, 2008, 10:14 AM

Obviously, there is a paradox here. If people are allowed to worship as they please then this should include the refusal for health treatment if it can be documented that the religion is against it. That's why my initial answer referred to case law about this.

NeedKarma · Mar 27, 2008, 10:17 AM

A certain 'weeding out' would occur no doubt. :)

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 10:17 AM

I was just stating what I believe Scott.

jillianleab · Mar 27, 2008, 10:35 AM

I always forget how annoying Nancy Grace is until I see a video clip of her...

The clip says the parents aren't affiliated with any specific church, but it sounds like they are Christian Scientists, (Christian Science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) who tend to prefer prayer to medicine. There is not, however, a tenant in their religion saying they cannot seek medical help.

I found this interesting:

Christian Scientists have been controversial for their failure to provide conventional health care for children (Asser and Swan, 1998). In the United States, the constitutional guarantee of protection of religious practice from intrusion by government has been used by Christian Scientists and other religious groups to seek exemption from legislative or regulatory requirements regarding child abuse and neglect, including medical neglect in more than three quarters of the states. There are now statutes in 44 states which contain a provision stating that a child is not to be deemed abused or neglected merely because he or she is receiving treatment by spiritual means, through prayer according to the tenets of a recognized religion. Although these exemptions take different forms and interpretations in different state jurisdictions, the overall effect has been to limit the ability of the state to prosecute parents for suspected or alleged abuse or medical neglect of children when such occurrences may be the result of religious practice. Severe (even fatal) physical discipline, failure to seek medical care, or refusal of a proven efficacious treatment of a critically ill child may be protected from prosecution because of the religious exemption clauses now found in a majority of state codes. (However, most of these cases do not involve Christian Scientists.)

So depending on their states laws, they may not face prosecution.

Regardless, it's very sad. There is no reason the girl's life couldn't have been spared.

ScottGem · Mar 27, 2008, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE

I was just stating what I believe Scott.

My comment was directed towards Need's response.

JudyKayTee · Mar 27, 2008, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

Obviously, there is a paradox here. If people are allowed to worship as they please then this should include the refusal for health treatment if it can be documented that the religion is against it. That's why my initial answer referred to case law about this.

As usual 1/2 of what is printed is probably not true but I heard that the parents do not belong to a specific religion - they are fundamentalists (in theory) but sort of make up the rules as they go along.

Some Minister this AM said that medicine, emergency rooms, ambulances, hospitals ARE the answers to prayers.

Then I heard that the mother said the daughter died because she (the mother) didn't have enough faith. Interesting theory - kill the daughter to punish the mother for her lack of faith.

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE · Mar 27, 2008, 01:17 PM

Scott,

Oh okay. I thought you were directing it towards me.

Jill,

I assume that religion and morals crash then.

Who's to state that an innocent 11 year old must die because parents depended more on prayer then medical help? To me, it is child abuse. And murder. The mother and father had seen the poor girl suffer. I think there is more in this story that isn't being told. Somebody's lying. Or not. I don't know but the situation seems extremely shady to me.

The Native Americans were very religious people but still used medicine for their sick.

Even Jesus healed people (but that doesn't really pertain to this for he perfomed miracles)

Fr_Chuck · Mar 27, 2008, 04:12 PM

It is a hard line to decide, as mentioned some religions do not allow blood transfusions, and this is upheld in court even if it causes death. But then it is a reconised religion. In the end most religions even the far right and far left respect and us hopitals and doctors. But many even with doctors still do believe in God's healing, it is not uncommom to have church elders come to the hospital to pray for church members. I have seen several "healings" in the hospital rooms so I know it can happen, but it happens in the hospital so there is treatment also.

twinkiedooter · Mar 29, 2008, 09:06 AM

My grandmother was Christian Scientist. She would pray herself out of bed every day. She had severe heart problems and all the praying that she and her church did for her did not help as she died anyway after suffering for many years. She chose to live and die like that so I can't say anything good or bad due to that. It was her choice.