We recently purchased three mini split systems (one ton, one and a half ton, two ton) from a privately labeled retailer, Harbor Point. Apparently, the systems were manufactured by Chigo. The one and a half ton system has two interior units serviced by one outside condenser. Two of the three (one ton / one and a half ton) offer only one external service port (the one and a half ton has a total of two, but only one for each sub-system). The remaining system, rated at two tons, does have two. The installation manual supplied with these systems is a Chinese translation that offers absolutely no pressure specifications whatsoever.

It was always our intention to use these systems primarily as heat pumps and only occasionally as air conditioners. As heat pumps, all three short cycle. The one ton system will run for over half an hour before shutting down and going through its start up check prior to restarting. The other two operate for seven to ten minutes before shutting down and then refiring.

The HVAC outfit that installed the linesets and pressurized the systems apparently felt that they had a handle on the required pressures. The mechanic who did the work had installed a number of Mitsubishi units while working for a different employer several years before.

After a week, the two ton system began showing an initial bad transducer code (P2) ultimately followed by a faculty compressor code (FC). Harbor Point contacted the manufacturer regarding the problem. The manufacturer believes the two ton lines were over-pressurized.

Harbor Point then arranged for a second HVAC contractor to come out and take pressure readings with all systems working as heat pumps. They found a static pressure of 120 on both the two ton and one ton units. A static pressure of about 50 pounds was found on each part of the dual system. The working one ton (remember only one service port) apparently had a working pressure of about 320 pounds.

On the basis of the info above, can I assume that all readings were taken on low pressure ports (again, two of the three systems only offered one service port per run leading to an inside unit)? Given that the installation manual provided absolutely no pressure specs, are the readings indicated reasonable from an HVAC pro's perspective?

The second company found no problem with any part of the system installation including the pressures recorded. Indeed, since it is a Chigo dealer itself, it called Chigo and was told that a static pressure of about 118 pounds was appropriate for the two ton unit with an ambient temperature of 40 degrees (approximately our temp during that time).

Since company #2 could not get the two ton compressor to run at all and because it now makes a horrible screeching noise when it attempts its startup, company #2 maintains that the compressor is bad. Given the short time between installation and breakdown, this outfit feel I should receive a complete new outside unit.

Any comments from knowledgeable sources would be appreciated. I fear that things here may well get nasty. Harbor Point seems obsessed with affixing blame here. My contention is that since no differing specs were offered, if the original mechanic pressurized using some type of normal industry standard, the retailer should either fix or replace all defective components as quickly as possible.

In any case, I am truly interested in your take regarding the pressures recorded. Were they unreasonable from the get go? Do you feel, based on the limited info offered, that there is a good chance that over-pressurization lead to compressor failure? Will both over-pressurization and/or under-pressurization cause short cycling?

I sincerely thank anyone willing to take the time and make the effort to answer.

What caused your problem was not having a professional who was used to working on the exact brand do the install to start with and he was not authorized by the factory to do the installs of there equipment.

Mini splits are a super pain unless you know exactly what you are doing with the exact brand. They are all different to a certain extent.
If you were to ask me what to do BEFORE you made your purchase I would have told you to buy the units from an authorized dealer and have the authorized dealer do the install.

At this point I would get a company that sells and installs this brand you are having trouble with involved. The manufacturer will hopefully believe them and this company might be able to get the problem covered under warranty. At this point the manufacturer has an escape.

The first mistake was buying Chinese equipment.
The second mistake was having a unauthorized person do the install.


Do not make another mistake. Swallow your pride and see if a dealer/service company for that brand can help you out . You may have to spend some $$$ to get it done correctly but it is better to have something finally work than nothing at all.

The Chinese do not have there act together when it comes to HVAC equipment. This is a known fact in the USA. Most companys here will not touch the stuff do to many problems. Sorry if you do not like my recommendations but I called it the way I see it from your post. Trying to be cheap has its problems and limitations as you are finding out.


Here is a copy of your warranty. You might have this already but since I looked at it I thought I would send it along.

http://www.chigousa.com/download%20f...ril%202006.pdf

This, of course, is the standard answer that is given by an HVAC pro. I do respect it; however, it's not entirely germane to my situation.

I live in an truly isolated part of Southwestern Virginia. There are only a few contractors available. Also, accreditation is in short supply. I'm not from the area. This becomes immediately apparent to any local contractor. Unfortunately, this often tends to influence estimates offered.

I did confer with a few individuals with at least some HVAC experience back in N.J. While the Chinese might not have their act together, I was told that Harbor Point and other similar labels were, at the very least, functional. If this isn't true, there's certainly nothing to be done about it now.

There are no Harbor Point dealers anywhere near me. Indeed, there may be no or few authorized dealers throughout the country.

I am working under the Harbor Point guarantee, not Chigo's.

I'm not looking to be bashed. The pro's standard reply is well known. Nothing wrong with it; however, I took a different route. It's my understanding that this is not a "professionals only" forum. Hopefully, someone might be willing to actually answer some of my very specific questions as a public service.

If you delight in bashing, there's nothing I can do about it. Fire away!

I am an HVAC/R professional and I take offense to that remark. Home owners do not get the answers they want and choose to place blame on us? You seem like an intelligent person. Maybe you should have done your homework about what you were purchasing and not just went with the cheapest bid. You did get multiple bids from reputable contractors right?

The bottom line here is that this is a warranty issue with either your installer or the manufacturer. There is nothing here we can do for you in this case.

Your question was answered to the best of my ability. I owned a small 37 man HVAC corporation before I retired. I teach when I feel like it at NKU and other university's. I am considered by Bryant,Carrier,Goodman, Grundfos,White Rodgers,Honeywell and many other company's as there contact pro in this area when they have problems the regular dealer cannot figure out. Getting close to 50 years in this industry and I did not get there by making to many mistakes.

There is no bashing here just pointing out some of your mistakes so you do not make them again. The remote area you live in should have made you extra cautious about dealing with equipment that was not well known in that area and I am sorry to hear that you live in a area that does not have the required service personnel to fix your problem.

Now that I have more of the story I would have someone disconnect all that China stuff and pack it in a box. Ship it back from wence it came and buy something local that the local service people can fix. You might have to fight about the return but since you bought the item in good faith and they cannot supply you with a certified person to fix it then some of the responsibility falls on them. Now if they can get it fixed for you then that is a different story.

I have no connections with the manufacturer and if they requested my services in this area where I live I would refuse since I know in advance about the China connection and the junk they produce. Now if you want to feel sorry for yourself I can understand why but do not accuse any of us of bashing since we only tell the truth and many people have a very hard time accepting that.

I appreciate the candor and the courtesy. You must realize that I am not asking you to critique my actions; I'm actually interested in gaining some knowledge. I asked a number of very specific questions. At least one or two could certainly have been answered. For instance, when a mini split has only one service port, is it always low pressure?

Even though courteous, the replies qualify as a true form of bashing. They are not really answering the questions I posed. I realize that there is much frustration out there regarding individuals attempting to circumvent HVAC professionals. There are at least several reasons this may be true.

Yep, saving money is important. For instance, we are retired. We owned a retail shop in central N.J. for twenty years. We had four commercial refrigeration units as well as two heating and two ac units to service. The last time we made a major purchase was about five years ago. Both furnace and complete split ac units were replaced. Ducting and gas piping were involved. The total cost was $3800.

When we came to Virginia early this year, we needed a complete and similar overhaul. There was nothing especially unusual about the job. We have a two thousand foot rancher. The estimate? $10,000, out here in the middle of nowhere.

Also, the HVAC industry is rampant with under-qualified techs and companies. Over our twenty year retail career, the number of truly astounding mistakes made by various HVAC companies still boogles my mind:

- An experienced outfit determined that we were experiencing inadequate air conditioning because of inside coil difficulties. After this major replacement, no change. Ultimately, another firm finally discovered that the blower squirrel cage was installed in reverse. The second company, amazingly, had actually performed the original blower repair during the heating season. It still took them two tries before they determined that the cage was the problem.

- Our air conditioning unit was performing poorly. An altogether different outfit came in and told me we needed a complete new system. I sent them packing. It turned out that a line was partially blocked. Simply clearing the block fixed the problem.

- A coil was leaking in one of our walk-ins, it took several tries with several companies before this was accurately diagnosed and corrected.

- We called in a local outfit with a superb rep to hook up the high speed side of our blower. We had just purchased the house, and the weather had recently turned warm. The mechanic told us that the blower didn't have a high speed circuit. I sent him packing, went down and corrected the problem myself.

I could actually go on. I certainly don't feel sorry for myself, although I can easily understand why it might be convenient for others to believe that I do. It's really critical that professionals realize that there is really a lot of trash in the industry. This alone is a major cause for my reluctance.

I have also worked with impressive professionals who really knew their stuff several times during my sixty-three years. It's been my experience that such mechanics are still far and few between. This is of great concern because this field is becoming more involved and complex by the year.

As I wrote before, there are a number of reasons an individual might be inclined to attempt to go it alone. In my case, I was primarily trying to limit area HVAC company involvement since I have seen little evidence of concern, professionalism, knowledge, and ethics. I took the chance and, indeed, am getting burned to one degree or another. On other occasions over the years, I've done fine. Thems the breaks!

In any case, thanks for being courteous. Over the years, I have witnessed altogether too much foolish vulgarity on other sites.

I understand. The answer to the refrigerant tap question would be yes to the suction side BUT I have seen mini splits that want you to charge them by weight of refrigetant in ounces some of those have only had a high side tap unless one was added. You can usually tell by the line it is on and where the line goes in the outside equipment. We also do not discuss system pressures here since you have to have a license to tap the system and check refrigerant. A person with the EPA permit will usually never ask questions on the sealed refrigerant systems at least not on this forum.

The lack of quality trades people is why I teach. I figure I owed something to the industry that made me well and bought all my toys over the years. My classes are certified for the required 30 hours every three years recertification for license purposes and I also procter the NATE tests. I teach augratis which is free. I do not need the $$$ and that way I can keep whatever schedule I want or setup. I was independent for to many years to allow someone to tell me when to show up and what to do. LOL

I would never do it again but many years ago there was a very rich customer of mine that had a friend out in Montana. The guy in Montana had 5 different companys out and no one could fix his system so the guy flew me out to Montana and then I had to take his private plane into Missoula which had this very small landing strip. Scared the whatever out of me on the landing for sure.

I had brought my hand tools and anything else I needed he had flown in. Long story short is that after three days his system was runnig better than it ever did. Naturally he was way over grateful and the amount of cash he presented as payment was enough to buy a new car at the time. I also made a good friend and still keep in contact with him to this day. We have a common interest in western art and since I am a collector his knowlwdge has paid off many times.

I mention this because it is amazing how far some people will go to get things working properly. Those days are over for me but that was one fun trip. Good luck with your system problems and I meant what I said about sending that back and getting something a local HVAC company knows what to do with. Even if you get it going now what are you going to do when it fails again?

First of all even if someone had an answer to your question it would be illegal for you to service any piece of equipment containing refrigerant. Period. You cannot, by federal law, even attach a gauge set. Any service tech on this board knows this and, I can only hope, would never instruct you to do so.

You list all of these issues you have had with other HVAC/R for what reason? To discredit the industry? An attempt to make us look like no-nothing crooks?

You mention that it is important for us professional to realize that there is a lot of junk. Well you as a customer need to understand that as well. Just because your installer recommends a certain piece of equipment then you have the responsibility to research that piece of equipment for your own piece of mind.

I appreciate your comments above. The only reason I asked about pressures is because there is a ridiculous battle raging between the mechanics that have been out and Harbor Point. The retailer insists that everything is over-pressurized. The mechanics state that all is fine. Also, I do need to find out if the original pressures were at least reasonable and not completely off the wall. Eventually, it could be critical as to whether the repair is paid for by me or Harbor Point.

I don't have gauges and have no interest in doing this work myself. If that were my objective, I'd have made the attempt at the start.

Yes, I have real concerns regarding the systems' long term reliability. As indicated before, that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'm going to give this a real shot. There is, unfortunately, little opportunity for my getting even a portion of my money back. If they prove truly untrustworthy and if I continue to have difficulty in finding competent help, I will attempt to replace them, one at a time. I may well have to bring someone in from Christiansburg, far outside my area, to do this work. I have already installed a complete baseboard resistance heating system over the last week; so, I can now afford to take my time.

Thanks to HVAC1000.

The lines for you units are precharged for lines to 25 feet and additional refrigerant in the amount of 0.3 ounces added for every foot in distances over 25 feet.

It is also a R-410 system which are very susceptible to and air/moisture or other contaminents. The system if opened at all during install or service should have had a vacuum pulled on it at least twice with a gas introduction between the vacs.

R-410 while not a new refrigerant is replacing R-22 the old standby that has been used for 40-50 years. Not all service persons have the higher perssure guages and other tools for working on R-410. Some service people have not had the required course that many manufactures require in order to sell you R-410 equipment. This can be a real problem since the pressures are much higher with R-410 than they are with R-22 so the settings will definitely be different. The oil used with R-410 equipment is a moisture magnet and this is the reason for doing a great vacuum job in order to boil that moisture out of the system before it has a chance to cause damage by acid formation etc.

I am giving you this info so you are aware of this situation and can ask a question or two of the next service person to kind of make sure they know what they are doing with this refrigerant.

There is some good info in the link below. The numbers/pressures are near the end. This manual is available to anyone. BTW they want the charge or additional charge weighed in!


http://www.chigousa.com/download%20f...20to%20End.pdf

HVAC1000,

Thank you again. This is exactly what I've been looking for. Don't know where it will lead me; however, any valid info is always good, even if only for educational purposes. I will admit to being curious as to why there is such confusion down here. Your comments certainly go a distance towards explaining why.

Appreciate it!!

There are some really great service persons who post on this board and we all do it for free just to help people out. Sometimes posters make coments that can really pi$$ us off but we try to understand that they would not be posting here if they did not have trouble. Some posters cannot be helped since it is it requires more mechanical/electrical skill than they have or especially in my case the fear they will get hurt trying to do the repair themselves. I wish you luck with your situation.