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    austin82003's Avatar
    austin82003 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Aug 6, 2007, 04:52 PM
    Court ordered visitation
    Can the mother of my child make it so that my parents cannot pick up my child for the time till I get home from work? Court order states that I get him for a mid week visit.
    Mary Surette's Avatar
    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #2

    Aug 6, 2007, 04:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by austin82003
    can the mother of my child make it so that my parents cannot pick up my child for the time till i get home from work? court order states that i get him for a mid week visit.
    No!!

    You may designate a responsible adult to pick up your child.

    But, if the child is in a daycare, you may have to show them the custody agreement (signed by a judge) and your right to designate a competent adult.

    But, check if you agreed to something differently that overrides this - in the custody agreement.

    But, your designated adult cannot pick up the child earlier than the time noted on the agreement.

    And you can even designate your girlfriend.

    Mary
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,304, Reputation: 7692
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    #3

    Aug 6, 2007, 05:22 PM
    Well I may disagree, you may have to go back to court and get them approved to pick up the child. It is your visits, not their visits that are court ordered
    Mary Surette's Avatar
    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #4

    Aug 6, 2007, 05:35 PM
    I disagree with F Ch's answer. Check your court order. Most standard custody agreements provide for the ability to designate an adult. There is no way that a parent can always pick up a child, that is why this is allowed by the court.
    macksmom's Avatar
    macksmom Posts: 1,787, Reputation: 152
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    #5

    Aug 6, 2007, 05:41 PM
    I agree with Mary... the visitation is your time... she cannot control "your" time. As Mary said, a designated adult (especially a member of your family) should be allowed to pick up your child if you are unable to do so. Just the same, if you had you child for visitation you are entitled to (if you need to) have that child in a daycare, or in the care of your family.
    If she is refusing, you can file contempt of court.
    GV70's Avatar
    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #6

    Aug 8, 2007, 02:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by macksmom
    I agree with Mary....the visitation is your time....she cannot control "your" time. As Mary said, a designated adult (especially a memeber of your family) should be allowed to pick up your child if you are unable to do so. Just the same, if you had you child for visitation you are entitled to (if you need to) have that child in a daycare, or in the care of your family.
    If she is refusing, you can file contempt of court.
    Bows! You are right-the visitation is HIS time... not his parents'time. It is lawful for her to refuse "grand parents picking up" unless it was designated previously.Fr_Chuck is right!!
    Mary Surette's Avatar
    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #7

    Aug 8, 2007, 10:01 AM
    I disagree with GVT0:
    Look under GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS in your order and check for
    "Designation of Competent Adult -- Each conservator may designate any competent adult to pick up and return child, as applicable. IT IS ORDERED that a conservator or a desigated competent adult be present when the child is picked up or returned."

    Unless there is an "Except as otherwise explicitly provided in this Possession Order..."

    Be sure you have a standard order and let me know what you find. I don't see the court's reasoning in not letting you choose someone else unless you had agreed to it.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #8

    Aug 8, 2007, 10:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Surette
    Be sure you have a standard order and let me know what you find. I don't see the court's reasoning in not letting you choose someone else unless you had agreed to it.
    I side with Chuck and GV here. I think, Mary, that you are assuming that there is a "standard" order. In my experience, while there may be a RECOMMENDED form for a visitation order, the final result is far from standard.

    The bottomline here is that austin needs to read the visitation order carefully. It may very well state that he can designate someone to pick up the child. If it does then the mother can't refuse. However if it doesn't give that right, them the mother can refuse. IN that case, he needs to go back and petition the court to modify the visitation order, or pick the kid up himself.

    As to the court's reasoning, what if the grand parents have tried to poison the child's mind against the mother? What if there is a problematic family history on the father's side. I can see many reasons the court would limit who can pick up the child.
    GV70's Avatar
    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #9

    Aug 8, 2007, 10:41 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Surette
    I disagree with GVT0:
    And I disagree with you .Please read first:
    Quote Originally Posted by austin82003
    court order states that i get him for a mid week visit.
    I cannot see "I or designated of me member of my family get him for a mid week visit."
    It is possible the visitation order not to be a standard order.And many orders are NOT standard orders.
    tawnynkids's Avatar
    tawnynkids Posts: 622, Reputation: 111
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    #10

    Aug 9, 2007, 01:25 AM
    It does depend on the state though. Here in California as long as the person is over 18, licensed, insured and considered a competent adult it is implied in our orders (unless otherwise specifically stated so) that someone other than the parent can pick up the child. In fact, unless you had a really good reason the court would get mad for a parent to deny the other their parenting time because they didn't like who was picking up the child. And if you went onto court saying I want to designate that only dad can pick my child up the Court would be REAL unhappy, it would be considered a waste of court time for a trivial matter.

    The best answer I think Austin, is to simply call an attorney in your area and ask. I am sure there are plenty of attorneys who would answer that simple question for you over the phone free of charge. And let us know, everyone likes to find out these types of answers.
    Mary Surette's Avatar
    Mary Surette Posts: 43, Reputation: 0
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    #11

    Aug 9, 2007, 07:32 PM
    Thanks Tawnykids. Mary
    GV70's Avatar
    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #12

    Aug 10, 2007, 12:04 AM
    Tawny/without the second N -I often miss it:D /,

    What about if a person comes and says to the mother"I am a friend of the neighbour of a co-worker's girlfriend's uncle of the father but I am over 18 ,I am licenced,insured and considered a competent adult and you must give me the children".. I had a similar to this case.The mother said that she would not allow the grandparents to pick up the children because they spent the time with children during their FATHER'S time.Also she stated that the grandparents had negative impacts on the children .
    She can refuse the grand parents to pick the children up.But you are mistaken.Not she,THE FATHER HAS TO GO TO COURT!If the mother acts as a case above the father and his parents have to defend themselves.We do not know Austin's case in every detail but it is possible for the court to decide that it is not parenting time because it likes to be a grandparent visitation.
    Second:Let us immagine that a man has mid-week parnting time from 4 to 8pm but he works from 9 am to 6 pm and he can see his children at 7 pm... Is it parenting time when the children spend 3/4 of the time with their grandparents? I believe you will understand me.:) :)
    tawnynkids's Avatar
    tawnynkids Posts: 622, Reputation: 111
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    #13

    Aug 10, 2007, 02:03 AM
    OK GV70 not just any random person, the father would have to say "hey so and so is going to pick up what's his name for me". And yes, it would be expected that it is someone the child is familiar with and feels safe with. I am sorry but the courts here simply don't care if grandma is taking care of the child until dad gets there. As my lawyer put it "he has a right to his visitation time and yes that will include the kids being with a sitter when he can't be with them". As there are 50/50 time shares it is clear the children will spend time away from both parents in someone else's care. And that is how the court views it.

    And no sorry dad doesn't have to go to court to ask if he is allowed to have someone else pick up the kids for him. Like I said though I am only speaking of here. And yes I do know of this to be fact as I have been through it and asked the lawyer. They don't care if the girlfriend or grandma comes to get the kids, and if you want to designate that only the parent can pick up the children you have to ask for it in the court order, there is even a special little place for it on the form, it is not implied.

    If dad is never spending time with the kids but rather someone else is than that can be something mom could go to court for, given that she has actual proof because dad will just say it isn't true mom will say it is.

    HOWEVER, aside from your "what ifs" I did say that this was the case in California. But I did tell him he needs to check with a lawyer in his area to be sure of what is allowed for him specifically.
    GV70's Avatar
    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #14

    Aug 10, 2007, 03:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tawnynkids

    And no sorry dad doesn't have to go to court to ask if he is allowed to have someone else pick up the kids for him.
    Right, but... if he is ALLOWED...


    Quote Originally Posted by tawnynkids
    If dad is never spending time with the kids but rather someone else is than that can be something mom could go to court for, given that she has actual proof because dad will just say it isn't true mom will say it is.
    No need... it is more than enough not to allow grandparents to pick up the child
    Quote Originally Posted by tawnynkids
    HOWEVER, aside from your "what ifs" I did say that this was the case in California. But I did tell him he needs to check with a lawyer in his area to be sure of what is allowed for him specifically.
    Good idea... but I think he has to open the case not she because he has problems.:)
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #15

    Aug 10, 2007, 05:53 AM
    I don't think any of us is really disagreeing with the others. I think the problem here is that some are talking absolutes where no absolutes exist.

    OK, in CA, it may be implied that the non custodial parent can designate someone else to pick up the child. That may not be the case where Austin lives.

    And what would happen if, in CA, the custodial parent refused to turn over the child to anyone but the non-custodial parent? Could the designated person call the police and show them their authorization and the court ordered visitation. Would the police then order the hand over of the child? Or would the more likely scenario be that the police would tell the designated person to have the non custodial parent take the custodial parent to court? I think the police would tell them to go to court. Now it may be likely that the court will uphold the non-custodial parent's ability to designate someone. But that just jives with what GV and I have said. That the custodial parent has the right to refuse to hand the child over to anyone that the court has not specifically designated that she must hand them over to.
    tawnynkids's Avatar
    tawnynkids Posts: 622, Reputation: 111
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    #16

    Aug 10, 2007, 09:07 AM
    I am not speaking in absolutes. And yes there are exceptions to everything. So I am not saying this would be the case for him just that it could be. I can only to speak to what would be the norm here in California. Because I have custody orders, I can only speak to personal experience, and I have asked my lawyer about this specifically because I was afraid that in the event my ex had to take a trip on business during his weekend that Grandma would come pick up our kids and they would spend the weekend with grandparents rather than with dad. I was told he very well might and that was his option. As long as I was notified in advance that someone else would be picking the kids up by dad then there was nothing I could do about it. And that if I didn't cooperate the Court would only hold it against me for "frustrating his visitation" and I would be viewed as the person who isn't supportive of the parent-child relationship.

    My ex sister in law wanted to be able to deny dad to have his girlfriend come get the kids for his weekend, same thing, she was told he could designate anyone he wants. On the same hand, dad didn't want to be told to drop the kids of with her mom (grandma) when it was time to return the kids and again he had to. Now just to clarify, there is nothing in our orders about who has to/is/is not allowed to pick up the kids.

    I don't believe the police would order the child to handed over in any state. Here and in another state I had to ask the police to assist in picking up my child and was told they would "ride along to assist" but that they couldn't "order"/make him do anything (and I am the parent not a designated person). They said if he refused I would have to go to court or speak to my lawyer to enforce it. They will ask that the parents cooperate with the order but other than that their advice is to go to court. They did say my other option was that if I felt the children were actually being concealed from me that I could press charges for child abduction and they would file a report to begin pressing charges (extreme).

    I am not sharing this to argue, but because I always like to know information about how different states handle custody issues. And having gone to co-custody classes these were the same stories/complaints I heard over and over and over again. So just sharing information.

    Anyway, these were true for me. In other states maybe they are allowed to withhold the kids when not being picked up by the parent themselves. And of course you don't need permission to file an action against someone in court. So he could easily file to try to get the court to allow him to designate someone else to pick up his kid and enforce his visitation. But the chances are unless mom has a real good reason, she is likely going to get in trouble for not allowing a reasonable request. The Court will likely see his employment being a legitimate reason for needing to designate someone else (especially another member of his own family not some random stranger) to pick up his child and sit with them until he gets off work. And probably at the very least modify the visitation time to work better with his work schedule. But if it's anything like here she could actually get sanctioned for forcing him to bring the action against her.

    Again, I was just speaking on personal experience and how differently the courts do view things. Reading form what I wrote maybe it would be enough for him to call her and say hey look I need my mom to pick up our child until I get off work, if you won't agree to that than I may just have to file in court for frustration of visitation and I will be asking for lawyer fees for having to do this. Is she is just be a pissy mom who likes to make things difficult maybe she will think twice, if she has a valid concern for not cooperating then it should probably go to court anyway. Either way, a lawyers advice would be best for him.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #17

    Aug 10, 2007, 09:33 AM
    Tawny,
    I'm afraid you ARE talking absolutes. You are saying that this is what YOU were told was the way things were done in YOUR state. That's what I mean by talking absolutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tawnynkids
    I don't believe the police would order the child to handed over in any state. Here and in another state I had to ask the police to assist in picking up my child and was told they would "ride along to assist" but that they couldn't "order"/make him do anything
    This is what I (and I believe GV70) are saying. Without a court ruling the parent CAN refuse to hand over the child. The police are not going to force it
    Unless specifically ordered to do so by a court. That's all we are saying.

    Your information and experience are that, in CA, the court will allow the non custodial parent to designate someone. GV70 and I are saying, there there may be instances where the court (maybe not in CA) will uphold the custodial parent's decision to not turn the kid over to someone else.
    GV70's Avatar
    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #18

    Aug 10, 2007, 04:36 PM
    Wow-I found a case in California... Stevens v.Johnson/LA 2005
    The mother refused to allow her two children to spend their father's time in the summer with their step-mother and step-siblings/ that time the father was abroad/.The court uphold mother's decision and asserted that "the step-mother does not have any custody rights" and in this way "she is not entitled to parenting time".And this happened notwithstanding that the step-mother was over 18, licensed, insured and considered a competent adult and she was DESIGNATED with a notarized letter/signed by the father/ to pick up the children .

    That's the edge.If a child spends his/her parenting time not with the parent but with a DESIGNATED person the court has to decide whether to change the visitation plan or to cut visitation.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #19

    Aug 10, 2007, 04:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by GV70
    wow-I found a case in California...Stevens v.Johnson/LA 2005
    I don't think that proves the contention because in that case, the father was away for the summer so would not be spending any time with the child. Had the father been home, even though he might be out working during the day, the judge would probably have ruled differently.

    The issue here is whether a custodial parent can refuse to hand over the child for a scheduled visitation to someone designated by the non custodial parent to pick up the child to bring them to where the non-custodiail parent will eventually be.

    As I've stated, unless a court order specially names the designated person, then the custodial parent can refuse. They might (probably will) have their decision overturned by the court, except if the designated person is proven to be a danger to the child.
    GV70's Avatar
    GV70 Posts: 2,918, Reputation: 283
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    #20

    Aug 10, 2007, 04:59 PM
    Scott-legally it is same... if Austin's child does not spend his/her midweek father's time with his/her father and spend this time with grandparents.

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