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    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jul 23, 2008, 06:14 PM
    Was my roof installed professionally (completed pics)?
    Hello,

    We're completely renovating an old 2 story home and we just had the old slate roof (was totally bad) removed and replaced with 7/16" OSB and 30 yr Tamko Heritage Dimensional Shingles. Since I do not know too much about roofs, I'm asking you all for your opinions as to whether my roofer did a professional job installing my roof. Obviously I want the roof to look good and be leak free as long as possible.

    Attached are some pictures of things that I spotted, should they be this way?




    Roofer says this is like this because the ending shingle pieces were so small, he couldn't nail into them without going through drip edge, so he added a larger piece of shingle underneath the smaller pieces and nailed the bottom shingle down. Is this a correct way of doing this?






    He caulked this with brown caulk because he said he would have had to remove the siding partially to install flashing and caulking it will cause no future problems. Is there anything else he could have done, or should have he used flashing?






    Gap between drip edge and fascia.

    Aluminum piece over old box gutter holes, he said he could not remove piece of soffit (with hole in it) and replace with new piece without removing entire run of soffit to the peak of the house. Is this true?






    I have a sloped fascia, should the gutter be hanging like it does (where it connects with downspout)? There are other places on roof that the gutters do this as well.



    I have temporarily withheld a small percentage of his final payment until I make sure this is done properly. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Thanks!
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #2

    Jul 23, 2008, 06:46 PM
    No reason why he can't nail through drip edge. The tab of the shingle above it covers nail.
    Are these shingles the standard three tab shingles or are they some special type that is suppose to give some random pattern look? What is the soffit made of, wood or aluminum interlocking material? Drip edge and fascia look like %&*#@. Have siding man make L shaped strips and put behind drip edge and between fascia trim and roof sheathing. He could have used white caulking or something to match the shingles. Where did he come up with brown? Gutter are normally hung level or even with top of fascia. They may slope slightly to aid draining but really doesn't help very much and makes them look bad. Roofer probably thinks gutter should slope to drain. Let us know about the style of shingle used and what it is supposed to look like.
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jul 23, 2008, 07:00 PM
    The shingles are dimensional type that are supposed to have the random pattern look. They are Tamko Heritage 30 Yr.

    Heritage 30 AR


    The soffit is aluminum.


    Should the roofer have made and installed the flashing (where it is caulked in picture)? It was not specified in our contract?


    Yes, roofer says the gutters MUST slope toward drain.


    Is there a code requirement as far as how many hangers or straps per so many feet are required for gutters?










    Quote Originally Posted by hkstroud
    No reason why he can't nail thru drip edge. The tab of the shingle above it covers nail.
    Are these shingles the standard three tab shingles or are they some special type that is suppose to give some random pattern look? What is the soffit made of, wood or aluminum interlocking material? Drip edge and facia look like %&*#@. Have siding man make L shaped strips and put behind drip edge and between facia trim and roof sheathing. Gutter are normally hung level or even with top of facia. They may slope slightly to aid draining but really doesn't help very much. Roofer probably thinks gutter should slope to drain. Let us know about the style of shingle used and what it is supposed to look like.
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #4

    Jul 23, 2008, 09:02 PM
    Gutters are normally installed parallel to roofline. If you try to slope them, they end up looking like what you have got. Think about it, if you try to slope a 40' gutter, (not an uncommon length of a house) 1/8" per foot you would have to drop it 5". Anything less than 1/8 would be no slope. So what if a little water sits in your gutter after a rain, it evaporates. So they go pretty much level. I doubt that there is a code on gutter hangers, see manufacturers instr. They should be fastened into the end of the roof rafter if spikes are used. The type you have probably use screws and any where in the fascia will probably hold.

    Because of the design in the shingle texture it's hard to see the shingle tab alignment. Note the drawing as to how should be done. As I said it's hard to distinguish but it looks like the tab alignment is pretty random. You may be all right with the caulking but it will be because of the soffit overhang above.

    I doubt that the sofit is connected together like siding but if it is it can be unhook. It is probably just laying in the channel on the house end and nailed to the bottom edge of the soffit. I think you should have a siding man look at the fascia and see what he can do about covering the underside of the roof sheathing and improving the appearance of the fascia.
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    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,379, Reputation: 2280
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    #5

    Jul 24, 2008, 11:57 AM
    Drain pipes slope 1/4" per foot, gutters are install level with the house drip edge, no slope required.
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Aug 1, 2008, 08:21 PM
    Hey guys,

    Roofer agreed to fix the items I presented to him, but a few days later called me and said he was not going to "crack" my siding by pulling it away to put flashing behind it to fix the caulk job he did here:




    He told me the only way to put flashing in this spot is to remove all the full pieces of siding and J channel that are near the flashing spot.

    He said the siding guy should have put flashing there when siding the house (house had slate roof originally that was not going to be torn off).

    He wants me to hire siding guy to remove and re-install the siding (after roofer puts the flashing in).

    Is there an easier way to do this without removing the siding completely?

    It's not possible for me to re-hire original siding guy as he moved out of state shortly after doing my job.
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #7

    Aug 1, 2008, 10:07 PM
    Suggest that you find yourself a good handyman. There is a little tool that you use to unhook siding from the piece above it so you can pull it out and remove nails of that piece. That way you don't have to remove everything from the top down. Have him remove what is to the left of the window and the ends of the couple pieces below the window. Have him remove the J channel and install step flashing under each shingle. Should be about 1 maybe 2 hour job. Be done with roofer.
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Aug 2, 2008, 05:42 PM
    Thanks Harold for your reply. I went out to the house today and seen that the roofer did "fix" some of the items already, but it appears he has put the new wider drip edge on BACKWARDS. This new dripedge is L shaped and I assume the flat part with no lip should slide under the shingles with the lip side hanging over the fascia, correct?

    Well he put it on in a way where NONE goes under the shingles at all. The flat part is against the shingle overhang and the lip part is against the fascia backwards. It's kind of hard to explain the way he has it, but it looks like #@%^!!

    He also pulled up the gutters were they were sagging (well some of them), but it now caused the downspouts to go crooked and the part were the downspout meets the gutter is pulling apart.

    It just looks even worse than at first. Should I give this guy 1 more chance to fix everything right? In your opinions, would I be jumping the gun to hire someone (reputable) to come out and fix everything right and take this idiot to court to recover the cost of doing this?

    I am just totally frustrated with this roof and just want it done RIGHT.

    Thanks again!
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #9

    Aug 2, 2008, 08:05 PM
    I'm having a little problem envisioning the drip edge installed as you describe but I think I can picture it. I think he installed it backwards to make it support the shingles. For what reason I don't know, other than he made the shingles over hang too much. Remember the discussion about how much the shingles should over hang and block cleaning the gutters. The purpose of the drip edge is this. Water has a tendency (water tension) to cling together (like when you pee) or to a horizontal surface. Sometimes it seems like it will run up hill a little before gravity takes over. If you have a low pitch roof (which you don't) the drip edge keeps water clinging to the underside from running back inside.

    I am not a roofer but normally the roof sheathing ends at the fascia. Not previously mentioned but you have the sheathing over hanging the fascia and the shingles over hanging the sheathing. That is one thing that is making the drip edge such a problem. Not so much functionally but ascetically. You are now trying to cover up that exposed wood to protect it and to make it look right.

    When you first said that the roofer started his shingles a couple of rows up from the eave so his ladder wouldn't damage the shingles, I thought "This guy must really take pride in his work". I wondered however, why he wouldn't just use ladder stabilizers, which would put the weight of the ladder on the roof surface and not on the edge. The primary purpose of the stabilizer is to stabilize the ladder but that's another big advantage they provide.

    I've never heard of a roofer doing that before, not starting at the eave edge. It's a lot of work to get the last row in under the shingle above it. I can't imagine a roofer thinking you couldn't nail through the drip edge on the gable end. What good does it do to put additional pieces of shingle under the shingle that is already there even if it is a short piece. I guess I can go along with the caulking as opposed to trying to get flashing under the siding, especially since its under the gable over hang above. But why brown caulking?

    Did you check out the vertical spacing or alignment of the tabs. As I pointed out some look very close. The textured pattern of the shingles is intended to give a random look but the installation of the shingles is the same such that gap between the end of two shingles is covered by the shingle above. Did you also check out the first row at the eaves. He should have used a starter shingle, which is just the top half of a shingle or put down a row of shingles turned up side down with the solid part down, then put another row on top turned normally so that there is no exposed wood between the tabs of the shingle. Given the way that he has done things I think you should check. He's a roofer, not a gutter man but I'm also surprised that he wouldn't know that gutters aren't sloped, hasn't he ever looked at the gutters when he does a job?

    I really hate to make extreme statements, especially since I'm not standing there and can inspect for myself. The pictures help of course but there's a lot you can't see and sometimes things are not as they appear. I think I would fire the guy, like right now.
    I refer to him as a roofer, but from what you have related and how things appear in the photos he's just incompetent. If you haven't paid him, don't.

    Get someone, a roofer or a competent handyman, take down the gutters, fascia aluminum, two rows of shingles and the drip edge. Saw off the roof sheathing flush with the fascia board. Reinstall the fascia covering. If the existing is not wide enough to go up under the drip edge, get wider material. If necessary have siding man make some to fit. Reinstall the drip edge then the shingles. That is re-shingle the two bottom rows. Take photos or keep the ones you have. If you can find another roofer to give you a professional opinion, do so. Even if you have to pay for it in case this guy tries to sue you or place a mechanics lien on the property. I probably wouldn't try to get compensation from him as it would probably cost you more than its worth. I would look closely at the tab alignment as that could cause leaks making the entire job have to be done over.

    Remember this is just my opinion, I am not a roofer. My opinion is based on what you have told me and on what I see in the photos or what I think I see in the photos.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #10

    Aug 2, 2008, 08:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hkstroud
    Get someone, a roofer or a competent handyman, take down the gutters, facia aluminum, two rows of shingles and the drip edge. Saw off the roof sheathing flush with the facia board. Reinstall the facia covering. If the existing is not wide enough to go up under the drip edge, get wider material. If necessary have siding man make some to fit. Reinstall the drip edge then the shingles. That is re-shingle the two bottom rows. Take photos or keep the ones you have. If you can find another roofer to give you a professional opinion, do so. Even if you have to pay for it in case this guy tries to sue you or place a mechanics lein on the property. I probably wouldn't try to get compensation from him as it would probably cost you more than its worth. I would look closely at the tab alignment as that could cause leaks making the entire job have to be done over.
    Totally agree with that.

    The gable ends look like *&()))& too. Do you know exactly how the shingles were installed around the gable and eve?

    One method involves a starter strip for the gable ends.

    For the eves, you can use a starter strip, cut the shingles shorter or apply two layers directly on top of one another.

    The latter is for areas that don't get much wind.

    The other methods allow the small amount of adhesive on the shinglles to hold the shingles in place in high wind.

    PS: The brown calk look like...


    Hk:
    Can you find a pic of the "cool siding tool" that you spoke of and what it's called.
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    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #11

    Aug 2, 2008, 09:42 PM
    Really just a thin strip of metal about 1/2 wide and 4-5" long, curved slightly with small hook on the end. You slide it up between the two pieces of siding. Catch the hook on the edge of the of the upper piece that is caught in the lip of the lower piece, pull down and out to pull two pieces apart. Sold in siding depart of HD, just $3-4. Works on aluminum and vinyl but better on vinyl because vinyl more flexible. Works best if you can start close to an end of piece of siding.
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    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Aug 3, 2008, 06:23 PM
    Thanks Harold for your reply. I had my step father (has done construction for many, many years) go up on the roof today to check things out further and it appears the shingles were laid out incorrectly. Since these are dimensional style shingles with no tabs, the edges of each shingle are pretty much lining up every other course. Basically they were installed as it shows in your 3 tab picture drawing that was posted previously, which is my understanding is incorrectly for these type shingles. The manufacturer states that for the warranty to be valid, they must be installed as per manufacturer instructions.

    This explains way the roof just never looked quite right, it was not uniform at all. If it was installed correctly, the coloring of each shingle would be basically uniform.

    Now comes my decision (it keeps getting better and better)...


    Will the way he has installed them cause roof to be prone to leaks or premature failure?

    Is this reason enough to tell the roofer to ripoff all the shingles and pay for and re-install new ones correctly?


    I do not wish to lose my shingle warranty because of his mistakes. I also do not wish to start a legal battle over this in small claims court (I know it will come to this) unless I have good reason. Your thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #13

    Aug 3, 2008, 07:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by stevekem
    Will the way he has installed them cause roof to be prone to leaks or premature failure?
    Yes.

    Incidentally, some shingle companies will not warrany the shingles UNLESS ice and water shield is installed for the first X inches from the inside wall. I forget what X is. It's somewhere between 18 and 24", I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevekem
    Is this reason enough to tell the roofer to ripoff all the shingles and pay for and re-install new ones correctly?
    At this point, I don't know what to say except this guy isn't a roofer. My only suggestion would be that you will allow him to fix it IF AND ONLY IF, the shingle manufacturer's representative approves the installation. That's the only clear way you will have a warranty. Take pictures along the way.

    Let's see what everyone thinks.
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Aug 5, 2008, 02:48 PM
    Thanks KISS,

    I contacted TAMKO to verify the warranty would be void based on my installation method and they confirmed this. I also contacted my local building inspector that will be doing the final inspection and he said he could not fail the inspection based on the way the shingles were put up, but he could possibly inspect roof and provide letter stating the roof was not installed to building code. He said building code requires shingles to be installed according to manufacturers method.

    I have decided to have the shingles redone, but I am debating on whether to ask roofer to redo or hire someone else. Either way, it will be a challenge to get roofer to cooperate (either by physically replacing them or paying for someone to fix). I have contacted my attorney to be prepared to file civil lawsuit (I know it will come to this).

    I have another roofer coming out in a few days to quote for shingle replacement, rehanging of gutters,etc...

    My building inspector wants to inspect osb once roof is off to make sure it's up to code, this he can fail the inspection for he says.

    We will see how it goes. Anyone else have any comments or suggestions?




    Quote Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid
    Yes.

    Incidently, some shingle companies will not warrany the shingles UNLESS ice and water shield is installed for the first X inches from the inside wall. I forget what X is. It's somewhere between 18 and 24", I think.



    At this point, I don't know what to say except this guy isn't a roofer. My only suggestion would be that you will allow him to fix it IF AND ONLY IF, the shingle manufacturer's representative approves the installation. That's the only clear way you will have a warranty. Take pictures along the way.

    Let's see what everyone thinks.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #15

    Aug 5, 2008, 04:04 PM
    I think you have it covered.
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #16

    Aug 5, 2008, 04:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by stevekem
    he said he could not fail the inspection based on the way the shingles were put up,.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevekem
    but he could possibly inspect roof and provide letter stating the roof was not installed to building code. He said building code requires shingles to be installed according to manufacturers method.
    Those two statements appear to be in contradiction with each other.

    How does manufacter specify installation. Appearance is a part of the job, in this case a big part. So is the warranty. This is going to be a losing situation for you no matter what you do. I think I'll go along with KISS and say only allow him to correct if he agrees to install according to manufactures instructions and at his expense. You paid extra for those shingles to get a certain look. Don't know if current method will cause problems with leaking but manufacture must have a reason for voiding warranty. May be a wind factor.

    Inspector must have concerns to want to see roof sheathing.
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #17

    Aug 5, 2008, 06:15 PM
    That's what I told the inspector as well, then he explained that while it does not meet building code, per local ordinance, he cannot fail a building inspection because of shingles not meeting building code.

    He said for example if the roof decking was not up to code, he COULD fail the building inspection.

    Maybe because the shingles are not really structural and the roof decking is, I don't really know. :confused:




    Quote Originally Posted by hkstroud
    Those two statements appear to be in contradiction with each other.
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #18

    Aug 7, 2008, 04:15 PM
    Welp I talked to the roofer, guess we're going to court. I seen this coming.
    dmckeage's Avatar
    dmckeage Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #19

    Feb 24, 2012, 11:11 AM
    Your roofer is an idiot and giving you a snow job

    David
    Roof Masters
    207-892-9299
    stevekem's Avatar
    stevekem Posts: 57, Reputation: 1
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    #20

    Feb 24, 2012, 11:37 AM
    Yeah, he is... I sued him and won, but he has no assets so at least I have a judgement. I had another company come in and fix a lot of the issues as it started leaking pretty bad in the winter. Still not perfect, but the best it's going to get.

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