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Rdwng · Jan 19, 2016, 02:11 PM

I just took down a standard light fixture to replace with a ceiling mount fixture. I have attached the picture of the load of wires that are coming out of the junction box. The 4 wires that are not connected were previously connected to the old light fixture. In using a volt tester the only live wires in the bunch are the group of 3 black wires with the wire connector on. Not sure how the old light worked with no live feed going to it? Any suggestions on how this should be wired. 2 light switches control the light and there are 2 other lights on the same circuit that are currently not working without the new light working. I have attached a picture

hkstroud · Jan 19, 2016, 04:19 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Rdwng · Jan 19, 2016, 04:43 PM

hkstroud, thank you for taking the time to reply. I have taken a couple extra pictures as you asked and will answer your questions above. Yes, there are two other lights that are controlled by the switches that are not working. In all there are three lights and 2 switches that control all three lights. Those 2 blacks are not the same wire and I think the new picture(s) will show that better. (still trying to figure out how to attach new pictures)

I believe I have new pictures posted at 25%

hkstroud · Jan 19, 2016, 07:44 PM

To post a picture, click "Go Advance" button below the Quick Answer box.
Then click on Manage Attachments, click Add Files, find and open the picture file, click Upload, click Done.

donf · Jan 21, 2016, 09:58 AM

Hank,

I added a blue circle. With respect to these wires, shouldn't there be a fourth black?

1) Return from Switch
2) New Fixture
3) Light #2
4) Light #3 Name: ceiling%20box.jpg
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Size: 69.7 KB

Name: ceiling%20box.jpg
Views: 387
Size: 69.7 KB

massplumber2008 · Jan 21, 2016, 04:17 PM

Did you test the exposed wires with the switch in the ON position? My guess is that when the lights switch is on, you'll find power between the black and white exposed wires.

Further, it seems to me that if you only took one light fixture out that the exposed white wires must connect to the white wire of the new fixture and the exposed black wire must connect to the black wire of the new fixture. I'm sure a ground wire should also be connected to the new fixture, but I don't see one sticking out of the box, so my guess is that the old fixture wasn't grounded...

Test the black and white wires for power again with the switch in the on and off position... should have power, for sure!

Mark

hkstroud · Jan 21, 2016, 06:48 PM

Don
I can't tell because I can't get the black cable moved so I can trace the wires. There could be 3 wires, one in and one out with a pigtail. Or there could be 4, one in, two out with a pigtail.

I can't tell if the exposed black wire comes out of the black cable or if it comes out of the bundle with the wire nut. It looks like it is larger than the other wires but then so does one of the wires in the wire nut.

Mark
I think I have just figured it out because I have figured out what the three white twisted together are. Its two neutrals and a pigtail in a wire nut You are looking at the end of the wire nut.
Just need to be able to see all the wire to be sure.

donf · Jan 22, 2016, 06:45 AM

Hank,

I saved the picture and looked at it with a photo editor.

There are actually 5 cables in this box.

1) Cable #1 - Feed. It is underneath the black cable that you want moved. Also the insulation on that cable needs to be trimmed back so that there is only 1/4 inch of insulation.
If you look under the top cable near the clamp, you can see the insulation wrapping of cable #1.

2) Switch Loop cable "SL". The supply black comes out from under the newer cable and connects to the SL white.

3) Cables # 3 and #4 enter the box from the other side and are partially hidden from view.

4) Cable 5 is the new, unconnected cable.

There are two unconnected neutrals. One coming out from under the wire nut (at about 3:00) and one at the bottom of the picture (about 6:00).

I've labeled the conductors as best I could. I hope you can make them out.

What is missing is the fixture feed coming out from the black wire nut with all the hot connectors and the cable neutral (#4N) needs to be connected together with the other neutrals.

hkstroud · Jan 22, 2016, 10:41 AM

I agree Don. Cable No 1 is the fixture feed, cable No 2 is the switch loop. Cables 3 (if there is a cable 3) and cable No 4 probably feed the other light. Don't know what the black Romex is. Probably a live feed to something else.

Note the curl in the white pig tail, indicating that it was once attach to something (fixture) with a screw. No curl in the black or the Romex, can't see the end of the white of the Romex. Suspect a missing pig tail out of the wire nut on the switched return.
This is a fairly new ceiling box. Note square drive screws in the cable clamps.

Suspect we will never know.

Rdwng · Jan 23, 2016, 08:33 AM

hkstroud,

Sorry for the late reply. I want to thank you very much for your time and help with this matter. I am a novice at wiring and using my voltage meter could not understand why a wire that I thought should be live was not. When I took down the old light the wires were simply coming through a hole in the ceiling and the junction box was covered by the ceiling wood tiles. I cut around the junction box to expose the box and to install my new light properly. In doing so, I nicked a wire. When I repaired the wire and used your information above, I was able to install my new light and have everything functioning. Thank you very much!

Rdwng · Jan 23, 2016, 08:39 AM

Hank and Don,

Further to the information above. They incorrectly had 2 switches running to the box, so instead of a 3-way connection they have 2 - 2 way connections. I never used the one switch and when testing them noted that what ever switch turned the light off was the only one that could turn it on. The other connections were for the 2 other lights on the same circuit, so 3 lights and 2 switches. Removed the switch I don't use.. connected as per your great info above to have functioning. Happy

hkstroud · Jan 23, 2016, 09:09 AM

Thanks for the update.

I nicked a wire

We have all done that.

donf · Jan 23, 2016, 10:01 AM

Rdwng,

One other note, you have your equipment grounding conductors running underneath the box's mounting screws instead of the supply EGC going to a green hex headed screw and then twist connecting and wire nutting all the other ECGs to the supply's EGC.

The reason this may become a problem is that you have effectively reduced the depth that these mounting screws can be driven into the support.

So, just for an example, if you chose to put a ceiling fan/light combination on that box the weight and vibration may just pull those mounting screws out of the support and drop the fan/light into the middle of your room.

You really need to fix that before you get to say, "Dirty Words!"

Rdwng · Jan 25, 2016, 07:24 AM

Thank you. I have a relative who is an electrician who is going to "Fix" a few of these issues in the near future when they are in town. When I mounted the new smaller LED light I did ground to the green hex screw that came with the mounting bracket of the light. Regardless, I will feel better when he checks everything over. Thanks