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gprimr1 · Nov 15, 2008, 03:25 PM

I am working in an old house, probably as old as wiring. (It still has BX wiring running along insulators on the braces.)

I installed a new dedicated outlet in my room so that I could have a grounded and safe way to hook up my new TV.

While I was working, I decided to add an ArcGfci breaker. After close inspection, I noticed that the wire going to the upstairs (15 amps for 3 rooms) has a black, red, and white wire.

That said, both RED and WHITE go into the neutral bar, only red goes into a breaker. I always thought Red was also hot.

Is this wired wrong? This might explain why the hall way 3 way switches don't work. How do I deal with this?

How should I tackle this one?

gprimr1 · Nov 15, 2008, 03:26 PM

That should say only black goes into the breaker.

tkrussell · Nov 15, 2008, 09:25 PM

How is the red used at in the circuit?

3 way switches are popular for being wired wrong, usually when a DIY'er or even electricians replace three ways, so I bet that is a separate problem.

Ferghus · Nov 15, 2008, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by gprimr1

I am working in an old house, probably as old as wiring. (It still has BX wiring running along insulators on the braces.)

I installed a new dedicated outlet in my room so that I could have a grounded and safe way to hook up my new tv.

While I was working, I decided to add an ArcGfci breaker. After close inspection, I noticed that the wire going to the upstairs (15 amps for 3 rooms) has a black, red, and white wire.

That said, both RED and WHITE go into the neutral bar, only red goes into a breaker. I always thought Red was also hot.

Is this wired wrong? This might explain why the hall way 3 way switches don't work. How do I deal with this?

How should I tackle this one?

Your house isn't THAT old. On most very old homes, 120 volt is just one hot and one neutral/ground. In modern homes, 120 volt has one hot, one neutral and one ground. Neutral and Ground are basically the same thing, as you noticed, both wires are tied into the same strip at the breaker box. Usually, black is hot, and white is neutral/ground.

About the switches... they could simply be bad. Switches don't last forever. A continuity tester will tell you if the switches are functional.

tkrussell · Nov 15, 2008, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ferghus

Neutral and Ground are basically the same thing, as you noticed, both wires are tied into the same strip at the breaker box.

If they are the same, why is there two wires connected to the same bar?

Why in some panels they are separated?

gprimr1 · Nov 16, 2008, 02:45 AM

Ok I figured it out and it turns out to be worse than I thought.

The electrician who wired the house used Black/Red/White cable, when he only needed to use Black/White since it just runs to outlets.

The red wire is connected to the neutral bus, and half way across the room, it just terminates when the wire splits to go up through the wall. The guy just cut the cable off and left the exposed copper wire hanging their in the ceiling. I'm beginning to wonder about this guy. That seems really dangerous. There was no need to use a cable with a red wire and certainly should not be left exposed and energized. It looks like I can just cut it off and install the arcgfic as normal.

The switches were bad, they just needed to be switched. They are so old you can see the metal connector move up and down.

Ferghus · Nov 16, 2008, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

If they are the same, why is there two wires connected to the same bar?

Why in some panels they are separated?

My point is, neutral and ground both go to "ground"...

Even though there is a neutral line attached at the breaker box from the outside powerlines, that same neutral line is attached to ground rods at intervals along it's route. Once at the home, there is another ground rod linked to the breaker box.

Only the hots are connected to the copper buss, which is separated from the metal box by a plastic insulator.

But I only know about home wiring. I've never dealt with industrial and have no idea what's different in the two.

Ferghus · Nov 16, 2008, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by gprimr1

Ok I figured it out and it turns out to be worse than I thought.

The electrician who wired the house used Black/Red/White cable, when he only needed to use Black/White since it just runs to outlets.

The red wire is connected to the neutral bus, and half way across the room, it just terminates when the wire splits to go up through the wall. The guy just cut the cable off and left the exposed copper wire hanging their in the ceiling. I'm beginning to wonder about this guy. That seems really dangerous. There was no need to use a cable with a red wire and certainly should not be left exposed and energized. It looks like I can just cut it off and install the arcgfic as normal.

The switches were bad, they just needed to be switched. They are so old you can see the metal connector move up and down.

I just hope this Black/Red/White cable you have also has a ground wire. If not, and the red is connected to neutral as you say, then you should reconnect the wires where they've been cut... I my building, built in the 40's, and a mix of old and new wire, there are many places where some installer ran new wire to say, an outlet, then cut off the ground, and only ran the hot and neutral to the modern grounded outlet. And I've had to splice and reattach the ground to the outlet. I think some of the old timers, finding new wire with three leads simply didn't know what to do with the extra one so just cut it off at every junction.

donf · Nov 17, 2008, 08:18 AM

Fergus,

Are you listening to yourself? Are you saying the qualified electricians in Chicagoland don't know how to identify wires?

It's a good thing there's this publication called the NEC code book.

My goodness, section 250.32 (A) (B) and (C) discuss how to ground panels. May I invite you to read over it.

Normally a 3 conductor wire would be associated with light switches. I have seen it used to isolate a ground to protect sensitive electrical equipment. I have never seen it used as a redundant Neutral but I'm not a licensed electrician, are you?

gprimr1 · Nov 17, 2008, 10:27 AM

Well the wire joins up with the current knob and tube wiring so the ground wire and the red wire just kind of die off along the run. What worries me is they were left exposed and energized.

The wiring is so old and poorly wired. I ran new outlets off the box on dedicated lines and I told the owner of the house (and the room mates) that anything valuable needs to be plugged into those outlets and to only use the exiting outlets for lighting or other small load devices. Each outlet is grounded to the box though, but there's no hope of using the ground wires.

gprimr1 · Nov 17, 2008, 10:27 AM

I'm pretty sure the reason that three wire wire was used is they had some left over and wanted to re-use it.

Stratmando · Aug 2, 2010, 07:51 AM

I hear Spring Branch Electrician, has Idiots for telemarketers?
You have tried to sell them on all 4 of your Post. Have Spring Branch Electricians come here for Help when they have any Electrical Problems they have Difficulty with.
In your post you say you have problems with wiring Hottubs, and when you tried other wiring, you say you messed it up.
What exactly do you do for them, Just Sales?