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    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #1

    Mar 30, 2009, 05:11 PM
    Multiple switches in circuit, but one needs to be a 2 way
    Unusual problem here..

    I have regular ceiling lights, wired with two 3-way switches.

    My garage door opener (Craftsman) has a add on that would allow me to use my remote to turn on or off a lamp inside the home (outlet that switches on and off with the remote, basically a 2-way switch, either hot or off circuit) Seen here

    Here's where I get stumped. I want to use this for our ceiling lights, and maintain the current switches that are in use. I just can't envision any arrangement in which this would work. I've never worked with relays and such, but would there be some sort of electrically controlled 4-way switch that I could use? Say a switch that would work in my existing setup but can be switched with the presence of a different source (the remote light control)?

    Any ideas would be helpful. Thanks!
    stanfortyman's Avatar
    stanfortyman Posts: 5,602, Reputation: 279
    Electrical & Lighting Expert
     
    #2

    Mar 30, 2009, 05:49 PM
    That is an X-10 type control. To utilize this with your existing lighting and switches would require replacing the switches with X_10 or Decora Home Control modules.

    If you are not familiar with these systems you'd be better off just getting that plug-in module from Sears and using it for a table lamp.
    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #3

    Mar 30, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Could you provide a link of an example of this X-10 system? Their site got me in trouble with the wife for oogling :mad:
    stanfortyman's Avatar
    stanfortyman Posts: 5,602, Reputation: 279
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    #4

    Mar 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
    This site has tons of the stuff: Smarthome - Home Automation, X10, Remote Control, Lighting, Wireless Security
    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #5

    Mar 30, 2009, 06:45 PM

    Hmm, X-10 doesn't seem to have what I would want. True, they have their own remote controlling abilities, but I still couldn't have what I've described above.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #6

    Mar 30, 2009, 08:31 PM

    You can do what you want to do, but it won't come easy.

    Insteon and X-10 are both options.

    For what your asking, a "4-way switch" switch is a specially wired DPDT switch . Don't ask me where they get those terms. You can make a light turn on from any locations by having two three way switches and however many you want of 4-way switches. It could turn on/off from 500 locations or more.

    You will need a DPDT relay, your garage door gizmo and at a minimum, a large junction box to put the DPDT relay in.

    Wiring a 4-Way Switch

    shows how to wire a 4-way switch.

    Take the DPDT relay and wire a jumper crosswise on the switched contacts. The 4 wires you will then need is the common terminal and ether the NC pair or NO pair.

    Your garage door thing basically applies power to the relay coil.

    The best way to buy industrial controls--low prices, fast shipping and superior service. is a place to look.
    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #7

    Mar 31, 2009, 06:49 PM
    Great just what I was looking for. Could you further explain the wiring a bit on this for me?

    http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4812/wiring.png

    I'm not following you when you say jumper the switched contacts crosswise.. jump #4-5 & #8-1 ?

    How would I wire this to the 4-way switch then? In other words, could you spell this out for me a bit? Haha, thank you
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #8

    Mar 31, 2009, 07:19 PM

    I can come back to this, but for the time being bear with me:

    A DPDT switch (not relay) has 6 terminals and from the back looks like:

    1 2 3
    4 5 6

    Ok, simple enough.

    2-3 and 5-6 will be connected together and when the switch is positioned the other way 1-2 ans 4-5 will be connected together.

    We can call (2) and (5) common or in relay terminology

    S1(Common) and S2(Common) We can call #1 S1 (NC - Normally closed) and #4 S2(NC) and correspondingly #3 as S1(Normally open) and #6 S2(NO)

    So S1 is the top half and S2 is the bottom half. The normally closed terminals 2 and 4 and the normally open terminals 3 and 6. #2 and #5 are common terminals.

    If we take that switch and connect 1-6 and 3-4 we have made a 4-way switch or with DC a polarity reverse switch.

    If you only use 1,2 and 4,5 you have the 4 terminals of a 4-way switch. Following it, the switch either behaves as a straight through switch or the wires cross.

    That's what the X means in the 4-way diagram.

    I'll have to do some more searching to come up with a better diagram, but if you went to Radio Shack and purchased a DPDT on-none-on switch and cross connected the ends, you will have a 4-way switch.

    The 3-way switch is an SPDT on-none-on switch.

    With a DPDT relay, you will have 2 extra terminals for the coil.

    This is kind of tough to explain without pictures.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #9

    Mar 31, 2009, 07:30 PM
    Something like this with a socket:

    782-2C-120A Products

    2PDT is the same as DPDT and you need a 120VAC coil.

    Your not likely turning on anything but a maybe 200 W of lighting?
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #10

    Mar 31, 2009, 07:46 PM
    I might suggest you experiment a little. Get a 12 VDC power supply and a 12 V LED and connect 2 three way switches (normal 120 VAC variety) and make that circuit work.

    Then add a 4-way switch and make it work.

    Then add a small DPDT switch and make it work.

    Then get a DPDT relay and make it work by using the test button.

    Buy the gizmo and now make your circuit work with the gizmo.

    Then, the tricky part: Figure how to do this safely and access the wires that you need.

    DIN rail and DIN terminals are used in industrial environments all the time. It's like an electrical erector set.
    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #11

    Apr 1, 2009, 06:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid View Post
    I can come back to this, but for the time being bear with me:

    A DPDT switch (not relay) has 6 terminals and from the back looks like:

    1 2 3
    4 5 6

    ...


    If you only use 1,2 and 4,5 you have the 4 terminals of a 4-way switch. Following it, the switch either behaves as a straight thru switch or the wires cross.

    That's what the X means in the 4-way diagram.
    Now would this work for me stand alone if used on a DPDT relay then? Would I need that coil or second relay you posted for anything? I'm really green in electronics when we get this deep into it
    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #12

    Apr 1, 2009, 06:58 PM
    Okay never mind, you answered my questions already I just had to think on it a bit more. The gizmo powers the coil in the relay, effectively "flipping" the "4-way switch" (finger drawn quotes)

    I think I can pull this off... :cool:
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #13

    Apr 1, 2009, 07:14 PM

    Don't know if this helps:
    Basic Electricity Tutorial - Switches
    Scroll down to the double pole double throw switch. Then phase reversal, it shows the connections for reversing Polarity/Phase?
    A 4 way has 4 terminals, and swaps 2 wires when switched, the polarity switch (relay or switch)also uses 4 of the 6 connections.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #14

    Apr 1, 2009, 07:41 PM

    This link does a better job of converting conventional DPTT switches to 4-way switches. When I was a kid and playing with toy trains, polarity reversal switches were common.
    Switch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It's a lot easier to think of this switch as it crosses or uncrosses two wires, hence the original picture with an X.

    Intercepting your travelelers and getting it to a relay safely, is problem #1.

    The suggested relay has a "TEST" button, which means for as long as it's held it switches state.

    Because it might seem confusing, I might recommend building a breadboard.

    Just build up:

    1. You can understand the circuit -or-
    2. You could bring the wires to an alternate location and splice a 4-switch there and then turn it into an electromechanical relay.

    Your garage door thing is wireless, no it usuallu cannot go inside a metal box. It will require power too. In reality it instead of plugging into the wall, it will plug into the outside of the box. It's output just attaches to the relay coil.

    The DIN construction method won;'t make a mess.

    The way you make these things is that you allow 2 terminals in and 2 terminals out. Then you wire and connect. You'll need a few more like grounds and 2 terminals for the relays.

    Initially I didn't want to blow you away in "how to build", but this site offers some suggestions.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #15

    Apr 1, 2009, 07:44 PM

    Hey, this is a tough simple concept.
    leewindschitl's Avatar
    leewindschitl Posts: 10, Reputation: 3
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    #16

    Apr 24, 2009, 11:24 PM
    Pictures of my test project, finally got it working correctly :D





    When I get to putting it in use I'll shove the light controller and relay in the blue box and hide it good :)

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