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carterseyes · Oct 28, 2008, 09:13 AM

I have an inspector who would like me to install all of the breakers before he sign off my rough electrical. I would have no problem doing so but this panel is live. My question is: a. Is this routine, It seems a potential hazard to me.
b. does the inspector have it out for the builder. This is the 2nd bad call electrically and the 10th mechanically.

aroslinger1 · Oct 28, 2008, 12:26 PM

the inspectors all have their own way of inspecting
if this is new construction you do not have to have all the breakers laced up b-4 rough is done any body can come in there and turn breaker on and energize a circuit that has not yet been swithed or plugged or fixtures hung etc

at least where I wire houses at===Missouri

stanfortyman · Oct 28, 2008, 01:39 PM

Your inspector is nuts, OR he has it in for the builder.
This is NOT a requirement and is NOT safe.

Washington1 · Oct 28, 2008, 02:06 PM

We always install our breakers before rough inspection. "Always!"

If the service is live, then pull the meter, and install the breakers. This should satisfy the correction.

Only your builder will know if the inspector has it out for him or her. Yet, it shouldn't matter. The inspectors job is to inspect per code(s), and if he or she can't do that, then call their supervisor. You don't have to kiss butt! They are their to do what you paid them to do! End of it!

aroslinger1 · Oct 28, 2008, 03:22 PM

Yea you can install the breakers...
But DO NOT hook them up

Washington1 · Oct 28, 2008, 04:01 PM

You can install the breakers, and terminate the conductors--this is the best way to do it before rough inspection.

One good reason: Grounding conductors have to be verified.
Second good reason: Not all jurisdictions require a final inspection.

To avoid the safety issue, you can remove the meter during make-up--then return the meter, and install the panel cover. This goes for new or old construction. Power is needed during all stages of the project, and sometimes the outdoor temp service is not available, and not the best place to get power if you are doing finish work. Why would you want a cabinet person pulling power from a temp pole, and it's raining outside. ****** Construction power***********

Think about it!

stanfortyman · Oct 28, 2008, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Washington1

You can install the breakers, and terminate the conductors--this is the best way to do it before rough inspection.

Wash, I have to respectfully and strongly disagree with this one.

First off, we CANNOT pull meters without going through the proper paperwork and inspections for just that purpose.
Second, WHY do you need to pull the meter to install breakers??
Third, I WILL NOT terminate breakers unless any feed wires on that circuit are capped off or the WHOLE circuit deviced out. I am certainly not willing to do this unless there is a reason to. Simply doing this so Mr Inspector can see the breakers in place is NOT a valid reason IMO.

I know all areas are different and this is proof.
If an inspector told me to make up the panel for a rough inspection my first question to him would be "Huh? Where is that written?"
If he were a jerk and insisted, or I saw that he would be a prick about other things, I'd do it. Then as soon as he walked out the door any roughed-in-only circuits would be promptly removed from the breakers.

I've seen too many hot wires in un-made-up boxes to leave wires on breakers. Someone is going to get hurt. If it is a sheetrocker I don't care, but someone important might get hurt. :D :eek:

KISS · Oct 28, 2008, 05:55 PM

I think the inspector earned the name "Sparky" don't you?

Maybe ask him if he as about 20 of those breaker lockout things because you intend to lock them out when you leave.

tkrussell · Oct 28, 2008, 06:03 PM

When breakers are terminated and can be livened by simply flipping the breakers, by anyone that has access to the panel, while the electrician is off site, and wires are not capped, every wire that can become energized must be capped, and each breaker needs to locked off and tagged by the electrician.

I never heard of this before, and would not terminate any breaker that the other end is not terminated safely and properly.

The inspector is lazy. He is only trying to save a trip or checking the panel later.If this is a local city or town inspector, check in with your state inspector for a ruling.

The neutral and grounding is the important issue to check, and that is all that is needed to be terminated in a panel during a rough in inspection. If the inspector has a question of the electrician, and he want to be sure there are no double wires or improper phasing of breakers, he needs to do it later during the finish or CO.

This is a crazy practice. I would be glad to roll around in the parking lot with the inspector on this one. And I am not locking off all the breakers, and capping all exposed wires in roughed in outlet boxes.

Washington1 · Oct 28, 2008, 06:08 PM

LOL! You disagree with me :( I guess the world is coming to an end!! :D

First off, we CANNOT pull meters without going through the proper paperwork and inspections for just that purpose. I agree! The OP said inspection, so a permit was already pulled. Rather to pull the meter or not depends on the project. Here, some POCO's do not charge to re-seal their meter's if you break the seal (all you have to do is call them, and let them know your plan of action).

Second, WHY do you need to pull the meter to install breakers??

When I say install breakers, I'm also saying to install the conductors in those breakers. No need to be specific! ;)

Third, I WILL NOT terminate breakers unless any feed wires on that circuit are capped off or the WHOLE circuit deviced out. I am certainly not willing to do this unless there is a reason to. Simply doing this so Mr Inspector can see the breakers in place is NOT a valid reason IMO.

Validating rather the equipment grounds are present and terminated is a concern.

Hypo: If an HO gets the go ahead to cover without making up the panel, and later the inspector returns to do a final inspection---later seeing that the HO cut the EGC's [duh, didn't know what to do with them], the AHJ can request them to re-run those circuits--which may require removing the walls.

Also, what do you do when your jurisdiction doesn't require a final inspection.

<---In this case, you have to make-up the panel.

:)

Washington1 · Oct 28, 2008, 06:15 PM

Do you guys really do this in your area?
If so, interesting!

We always make up our panels before rough inspection. Note: Our inspectors would like to see the grounding conductors terminated in the panel during RI inspection.

stanfortyman · Oct 28, 2008, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Washington1

Hypo: If an HO gets the go ahead to cover without making up the panel, and later the inspector returns to do a final inspection---later seeing that the HO cut the EGC's [duh, didn't know what to do with them], the AHJ can request them to re-run those circuits--which may require removing the walls.

Anyone who would do this deserves to be told to open the walls and redo it. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Washington1

Also, what do you do when your jurisdiction doesn't require a final inspection.

I have never ever heard of an area that would require a rough-in inspection but not a final. This makes NO sense to me.

stanfortyman · Oct 28, 2008, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Washington1

We always make up our panels before rough inspection. Note: Our inspectors would like to see the grounding conductors terminated in the panel during RI inspection.

Grounds and neutral FINE. I do this myself. Just not the hots on breakers.

tkrussell · Oct 28, 2008, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

Grounds and neutral FINE. I do this myself. Just not the hots on breakers.

Exactly. Doesn't the inspector come back to do a final to check that all boxes are terminated with devices, fixtures, or blank covers?

And do a few sample random voltage, Vd, and polarity tests on the live receptacles?

Seems to me that would be more important that checking to see breakers installed and terminated?

Grounding and neutrals are the important issue in a panel.

carterseyes · Oct 28, 2008, 09:47 PM

I appreciate all of your input. This is the first time I called an inspection in this particular city. I always terminate the grounds and neutrals during rough in. whether the panel is hot or not. But never have I been told to install breakers, and terminate circuits hot. I asked the inspector why he said “I want to see how the circuits are run." I told him to look at the plans. This may have been the problem. The plans have been revised three times; all of witch has been approved by the city. This house only 1,200 sq. ft. rank up with some of the most pain in the butt homes I've wired. Sorry didn’t mean to wine. Thanks

Washington1 · Oct 29, 2008, 06:45 AM

Ok, it's obvious your area is totally different!! This just means we have better Electricians in our area, and more responsible HO's!! :D :)

Joking! Very interesting!!

I guess there is no wrong or right, unless it's a local code requirement.

Washington1 · Oct 29, 2008, 06:53 AM

If it is a sheetrocker I don't care

I miss this one. I see we agree on something!! I was telling a customer a few days back, that sheetrockers are our worse nightmare!!

Washington1 · Oct 29, 2008, 06:55 AM

Stan and TK,

Are you guys busy?

I have been busy for the last six weeks, but things are starting to look dim for the next month :(

stanfortyman · Oct 29, 2008, 12:41 PM

I actually am pretty busy. Quite a bit right now and no real end in sight. Not overwhelmed though, which I like.

Stratmando · Oct 29, 2008, 04:10 PM

Down here, we don't have to Make up the Panel for Rough.
Personally I like to Make up the Panel, Install the 2 wire rubber light sokets for lighting, Cap all live ends. You can have Temporary power about anywhere with a receptacle. Turn off power, remove lights, install drywall, then reinstall temporary switches, recepticles, and lights. I like to provide good lighting and power, makes everyone's job easier/better.
Drywallers are a pain, THEY should repull the wiring they destroy.