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    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jan 17, 2009, 11:24 PM
    Grounding rods sticking out - correct installation?
    Hi - I just had my old 100 amp panel replaced with a 200 amp panel, and as part of the process two grounding rods were driven, and a new mast was installed. I'm hoping it was done correctly, but some of the choices made by the electrician just don't look right to me. I have not had the work inspected yet.

    For this post, my main question is why are the grounding rods sticking out? I've read two books on residential wiring, and they both state that the rods should be beneath the surface (unless I misunderstood). I asked the electrician about this, and he they needed to be exposed because an inspector would need to check certain markings on the rods. Sounds weird to me - why not just leave the tops unburried, then have me cover them later after they're inspected?

    Secondly, my plumbing runs through the walls and attic, and not through the slab (repipe last year). The electrician hooked the second rod up to the plumbing to use it as part of the grounding system. He said it would still be effective, since one the plumbing left the house in the front it went into the ground. Again though, the books on wiring that I read said that plumbing is something that needs to BE grounded, not something that should provide the grounding, especially when the pipes run through the attic.

    The pictures say everything. Can some experts provide input? Is this normal and good practice?

    Thanks in advance!





    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #2

    Jan 19, 2009, 09:53 AM

    I've been looking around on Google and found a another forum posting related to this. It said the bars usually are below surface level with a bowl shaped depression dug out around the top portion of the bar, so that perhaps 6" of the top of that bar is visible. During the inspection the markings on the bar are visible, and then the depression is back-filled covering the bar completely.

    Additionally, I reread the grounding chapter in one of my books on wiring, "Wiring a House" by Rex Cauldwell. In Rex's book, he emphasizes that, in modern electrical systems, it makes a lot more sense to ground the home plumbing rather than to use it as a ground rod. He also suggests something that every electrician in my area seems to think is nuts, using a minimum of 8 grounding rods, even though 2 is the number required by code. According to Rex, if you really want a grounding system capable of absorbing static and bursts of electricity then you need to lowering the resistance to ground significantly. He believes this is the best way to extend the life of expensive electronics. He makes a good case in the book. Any other opinions on this?
    jw291's Avatar
    jw291 Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jan 21, 2009, 10:01 AM
    As far as the ground rods only one is required unless there is too much resistance in the ground. Hense the two ground tods wich is normal procedure. From what I've seen the ground rods will stick out of the ground because if the inspector comes over and your not home he/she will look for the ground rods and if they aren't there then the inspection fails. They normally will not look very hard so if they aren't apparent then the inspection is failed. However, you can pound them down after the inspection so you don't have to see them.
    andrewc24301's Avatar
    andrewc24301 Posts: 374, Reputation: 29
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    #4

    Jan 21, 2009, 08:10 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by justincaseme View Post
    I've been looking around on Google and found a another forum posting related to this. It said the bars usually are below surface level with a bowl shaped depression dug out around the top portion of the bar, so that perhaps 6" of the top of that bar is visible. During the inspection the markings on the bar are visible, and then the depression is back-filled covering the bar completely.

    Additionally, I reread the grounding chapter in one of my books on wiring, "Wiring a House" by Rex Cauldwell. In Rex's book, he emphasizes that, in modern electrical systems, it makes a lot more sense to ground the home plumbing rather than to use it as a ground rod. He also suggests something that every electrician in my area seems to think is nuts, using a minimum of 8 grounding rods, even though 2 is the number required by code. According to Rex, if you really want a grounding system capable of absorbing static and bursts of electricity then you need to lowering the resistance to ground significantly. He beleives this is the best way to extend the life of expensive electronics. He makes a good case in the book. Any other opinions on this?
    You need to read this...

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electr...ad-300546.html
    stanfortyman's Avatar
    stanfortyman Posts: 5,598, Reputation: 279
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    #5

    Jan 22, 2009, 05:03 AM
    That installation is NOT code correct.

    That top clamp is wrong for the installation, that is a pipe clamp, not a rod clamp.
    The top of a ground rod must be at or below grade.
    You CANNOT, under most circumstances, use a water pipe as a conductor. If ALL the connections are within 5' of where the pipe enters the structure then it is OK.
    Handyman2007's Avatar
    Handyman2007 Posts: 988, Reputation: 73
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    #6

    Jan 22, 2009, 06:33 AM

    Was that installation done by a REAL electrician? It is very sloppy, not at all professional and I would be concerned about it's effectiveness. I would, if I were you, pay for an independent inspection. Check with your municipality and get a list of Electrical Inspectors and call one of them to have it inspected. I wouldn't accept an inspection by someone that the electrician knows. A building inspector probably will accept this but a good, experienced independent inspector would not.
    In my area, it ic common practice to have about 4" of the ground rod exposed but no more. Personally, I always use 2 ground rods at least 10' apart and securely bonded together. Good Luck.
    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Jan 22, 2009, 02:51 PM

    What do you guys think about having the grounding wire in conduit as it runs between the rods? On the one hand, it offers some protection if anyone digs there. On the other hand, wouldn't it make more sense to use solid copper wire and have it contact the soil directly?
    Handyman2007's Avatar
    Handyman2007 Posts: 988, Reputation: 73
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    #8

    Jan 22, 2009, 03:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by justincaseme View Post
    What do you guys think about having the grounding wire in conduit as it runs between the rods? On the one hand, it offers some protection if anyone digs there. On the other hand, wouldn't it make more sense to use solid copper wire and have it contact the soil directly?
    In this particular situation, I really don't think there is much that would make any difference. When I BOND 2 ground rods together, I usually use #4 or #6 wire between the 2 and it is usually insulated wire. There is no sense in running the ground through conduit.
    Will the original poster let us all know who the "electrician(??)" was that did this job so we can RUN THE OTHER WAY WHEN WE SEE HIM COMING?!
    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Jan 23, 2009, 01:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman2007 View Post
    Will the original poster let us all know who the "electrician(??)" was that did this job so we can RUN THE OTHER WAY WHEN WE SEE HIM COMING??!!!!!
    hahah... obviously I'm not completely satisified, but he seemed like a really good guy; semi-retired I suspect. Aside from the so-so work, a couple things bothered me:
    * Two other electricians told me it would take 1 day to replace the panel. It took this guy 3!
    * I checked his license after he started work, and it expired 12/2008!
    * Worse yet, his bond expired 10/2007.. What the heck is that all about??

    So why did I pick this electrician? He sounded competent, and though he was priced the same as the other two electricians, he accepted half the payment in "ITEX" dollars (trade currency). My roommate is a plumber who also belongs to the ITEX network, and he covered that portion for me.
    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Jan 23, 2009, 02:43 AM
    Here are some photos on the electrical panel installation. I'd really appreciate some feedback, particularly on the drop connections at the mast.

    The Old Panel



    The New Mast

    Why are the connections covered in electrical tape? Won't the sun burn that to brittleness in a few months? Is this okay?




    The New 200 Amp GE Panel

    You're right, it's not quite straight, and either is the outdoor outlet below it.



    Here's the inside wall. The funny thing is, I told the electrician that I was planning on moving the cabinet and that he could tear off that whole sheet of drywall. I wanted to make it easier! He insisted on doing it the hard way... madness I tell you.

    I'll post a picture this weekend that shows the panel area now that I've taken the drywall off. FYI, If you ever have a customer complain about the big hole you cut in their drywall, just explain that it's easier to hang a big panel than to patch mediumsized holes... and the results are so much smoother and cleaner. So open those walls up! :D

    stanfortyman's Avatar
    stanfortyman Posts: 5,598, Reputation: 279
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    #11

    Jan 23, 2009, 04:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by justincaseme View Post
    ........We're doing most of the work ourselves.

    Money is very tight. I bought this house in Southern California over a year ago by working two jobs and barely qualifying for the mortgage.

    ........I'm bank rolling the project solo, and I've made it work. Let's be clear though - there's no room for error, no money for mistakes, and no money for fancy extras.


    ....... A choice between affording materials or affording permits is an easy choice.
    I know I'll get flamed for this, but why is it folks buy houses, especially in such a volatile and grossly overinflated market like California, with very little money?

    WHY in the world would you buy a house that you can barely afford (...working two jobs and barely qualifying for the mortgage...) and ON TOP of that needs total renovation??


    EVERY project goes over budget. Or it could easily be said every project is under budgeted from the start.
    NOTHING goes as planned. EVERY project has changes, alterations, problems.

    Going into such a large project with NO margin for error is like walking on the slippery edge of a cliff.
    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Jan 23, 2009, 06:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by stanfortyman View Post
    I know I'll get flamed for this, but why is it folks buy houses, especially in such a volatile and grossly overinflated market like California, with very little money?

    WHY in the world would you buy a house that you can barely afford (...working two jobs and barely qualifying for the mortgage...) and ON TOP of that needs total renovation???


    EVERY project goes over budget. Or it could easily be said every project is under budgeted from the start.
    NOTHING goes as planned. EVERY project has changes, alterations, problems.

    Going into such a large project with NO margin for error is like walking on the slippery edge of a cliff.
    Ahhh geeez... I guess I should have expected that on a forum. I'm young, I don't have any kids or other liabilities. It's a 30 year prime fixed mortgage with no PMI. I bought it after the market declined but of course we all know now it had further to go. The second job was for the downpayment and closing costs, not the monthly PITI. Certainly in hindsight there are things I could have done better. When isn't that the case for anyone with any project? It's an adventure and all I have to loose is time and money if it doesn't work out. So far everything has gone according to plan... if I really run into a major problem, then I'll come up with a new plan.

    Let me clarify what I meant when I said "no margin for error". If I accidentally leave a few sheets of drywall outside and it suddenly rains, I can absorb that loss. If I suddenly break my leg and have to hire someone to hang the drywall (quoted at $5k) I can't proceed. I'd have to stop the project for several months until I was well enough to come back to it.

    I think discussions like this really miss the point though. I like this site a lot, and this next comment isn't directed at you personally. I notice many responses to questions on this site are more about exalting egos rather than solving a problem or sharing an experience. The responses usually go something like "I'm a professional <fill the blank> with 30 years of experience. The way you did that, or the way your contractor did that realllllly sucks. God, I'm soooooo much better. I know something someone else doesn't. I have a skill someone else doesn't. Tell me how awesome I am so I can feel good about myself."

    I guess that's entertaining to some folks, but I don't really see the point.
    justincaseme's Avatar
    justincaseme Posts: 62, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Jan 23, 2009, 06:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewc24301 View Post
    Ohhhh man... Thanks for that link. I have the version before that one which hasn't been recalled (2002). I'll check the publisher to see if the older version is still valid.

    That's really a shame; I bet it was just a publisher error too. I've read three Home-Depot style electric books, and all kinds of trade books on other subjects, and Rex Cauldwell's "Wiring a House" was the funnest to read. I hope they fix the errors and get another edition back on the market ASAP.
    andrewc24301's Avatar
    andrewc24301 Posts: 374, Reputation: 29
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    #14

    Jan 23, 2009, 06:47 PM

    If it makes you feel any better, all of my home remodeling projects were work in progresses. Many-a-day we lived in rooms where studs were exposed, and extension cords traverse across rooms and hallways to keep things liveable while we work a project.

    Things are better now, now it's down to just painting every few years. All my work now is confined to my basement as I'm finishing it.

    And I couldn't tell you what a permit application looks like.
    stanfortyman's Avatar
    stanfortyman Posts: 5,598, Reputation: 279
    Electrical & Lighting Expert
     
    #15

    Jan 23, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by justincaseme View Post
    I notice many responses to questions on this site are more about exalting egos rather than solving a problem or sharing an experience. The responses usually go something like "I'm a professional <fill the blank> with 30 years of experience. The way you did that, or the way your contractor did that realllllly sucks. God, I'm soooooo much better. I know something someone else doesn't. I have a skill someone else doesn't. Tell me how awesome I am so I can feel good about myself."

    I guess that's entertaining to some folks, but I don't really see the point.
    I have to say, I really don't see that here. I do on other sites.
    Most folks (professionals) here just give advice based on experience. I don't see a lot of chest puffing going on.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #16

    Jan 23, 2009, 09:20 PM

    No one mentioned this detail. The white nylon cable ties won't hold up in sunlight.
    andrewc24301's Avatar
    andrewc24301 Posts: 374, Reputation: 29
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    #17

    Jan 23, 2009, 09:54 PM
    I don't get it.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #18

    Jan 23, 2009, 10:08 PM

    Note the difference:

    4" UV Resistant Nylon Cable Ties

    UV resistant cable ties are black. Natural Nylon (white) re not UV resistant. Sunlight contains a fair amout of UV light.
    andrewc24301's Avatar
    andrewc24301 Posts: 374, Reputation: 29
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    #19

    Jan 23, 2009, 10:41 PM

    Oh, you are referring to the ties holding the conduit to the ground rod.

    I see..

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