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SUDHIRAO · Oct 19, 2008, 04:42 PM

Hello! I've a pair of outlets in the kitchen where the top one is always hot and the bottom one is controlled by a switch. The switch stopped working and the bottom is always dead. Suspecting the outlet (and not the switch) was bad I replaced the outlet with a new one and connected everything as before. I noticed that now both top and bottom were always hot. At this point I flipped the switch (which used to control the bottom outlet) and the whole house lost power!! :( Took me a while to locate master breaker (outside the condo) and flip is back and forth to get the power back on.

I've learnt from other posts on the site that I should break the metal tab connecting the two outlets on the right (hot) side to fix my problem - and have the switch control the bottom outlet - as before.

My question to the experts is if it was normal for the master breaker to have tripped when I flipped the switch with the metal tab inplace. Will breaking the metal tab really fix my problem? Thanks!

Missouri Bound · Oct 19, 2008, 05:06 PM

Well... the "master" breaker, or the main breaker shouldn't have tripped. Only the breaker controlling the circuit you were wiring should have blown. Where are the rest of your breakers, outside the condo?

stanfortyman · Oct 19, 2008, 06:00 PM

Are you in Canada?
It is very common in Canada to have "split-wired" kitchen receptacles with each half on a separate circuit.

If this is the case then you created a 240v bolted fault. It is not unheard of for the main to trip in cases like this.

If all of this is so, then breaking the hot side tab will be your cure.

What wires were in the receptacle box?

SUDHIRAO · Oct 19, 2008, 06:10 PM

Thanks for the responses folks!

The breakers controlling the individual outlets are inside the house. I don't know if they tripped as well. I tried flipping them back and forth several times to no effect. Of course, since the master had also tripped I couldn't tell.

This is in a 24 year old condo in san francisco bay area. As far as the wires in the receptacle box, there was a white one connected on the left, a ground also connected on the left bottom and a black and red connected on the right - black above and red belo I think.

What took me by surprise was the master breaker blowing. I was expecting instead that the two outlets would remain hot no matter what the switch position. I'll try breaking the metal tab and report back.

Stratmando · Oct 20, 2008, 05:21 AM

If they were on the same Phase, it would not have blown. With the tab intact, you made a connection across both Hots(phases).
You still need to determin if the switch is OK.
Red or black can be on either of those 2 screws, red may be coming from the switch, and black may be a constant hot.

evolkmar · Oct 20, 2008, 06:09 PM

Here is what need to be done. The same phase should be used in cases like this to prevent such a nasty short, I assume they used a different phase to be able to gain more amperage on the 2 outlets or separate lights circuit from appliance. What it the light source in that kitchen? If you have a ceiling light on a different switch then I would cancel that stupid switch and use only 1 of the wires to that outlet.
35 years license electrician in LA with 5 years electrical school in Israel

stanfortyman · Oct 20, 2008, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by evolkmar

here is what need to be done. the same phase should be used in cases like this to prevent such a nasty short,

OK, but what if they are doing it intentionally to get two circuits to the counter?

What if these are the only two circuits to the counter and it is a multi-wire branch circuit?

Why they are switched is anybody's guess, but I doubt it is for lighting. Receptacles and lighting CANNOT be mixed in a kitchen.

Stratmando · Oct 20, 2008, 07:29 PM

Like Stan is saying, if another neutral can not be ran to that box, it would need to be on opposite phases to get 2 circuits.
Usually you don't need 2 circuits in 1 receptacle, but is nice for small Kitchens. You could plug in a toaster in the Top AND the Bottom.
Maybe the switch controlled an old Manual Coffee pot? Then they just hit the switch in the morning.

SUDHIRAO · Oct 20, 2008, 08:39 PM

The two outlets are located under the sink - top for dishwasher and bottom for insinkerator (sink garbage disposer). The top one wants to be always on for the dishwasher. The bottom one wants to controlled by the switch. The switch is part of a 2 switch panel with the other switch controlling the tube lights on the kitchen ceiling .

On a related note the original pair of outlets were 15A. The guy at Loews suggested I use the 20A ones when I told him it was for the diswasher and insinkerator.

stanfortyman · Oct 21, 2008, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by SUDHIRAO

The two outlets are located under the sink - top for dishwasher and bottom for insinkerator (sink garbage disposer). The top one wants to be always on for the dishwasher. The bottom one wants to controlled by the switch. The switch is part of a 2 switch panel with the other switch controlling the tube lights on the kitchen ceiling .

On a related note the original pair of outlets were 15A. The guy at Loews suggested I use the 20A ones when I told him it was for the diswasher and insinkerator.

NOW it all makes sense.
This is a very common installation. You cannot change this. It is what it is.
Break off the tab and be done with it.

Stratmando · Oct 21, 2008, 06:08 AM

I think we all assumed it was a counter receptacle. If the red and black are reversed, just plug in other recepticle(swap)

SUDHIRAO · Nov 11, 2008, 05:50 PM

I am happy to report that after breaking the tab and making all the connections as before the outlet works fine. The garbage disposer is now operable through the switch and the dishwasher connection is always on.

Thanks to everyone who responded!