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dirtboy75 · Jan 13, 2007, 08:04 AM

I purchased and ready to install a new diahwasher. The instructions call for a 15 amp circuit breaker. The current breaker is a 10 amp breaker solely for the dishwasher. Can I use the 10 amp or should I change the breaker to 15 amp? How difficult would it be to change?

tkrussell · Jan 13, 2007, 08:07 AM

What brand panel and circuit breakers do you have? What size wire is connected to the 10 amp breaker? Any chance of providing a picture of the panel?

TheSavage · Jan 13, 2007, 08:20 AM

Was wire smaller than 14 gage ever used in residential 110/220 wiring?[ just want to know to file away in my brain]
Edit --I meant since the electric codes where written.

labman · Jan 13, 2007, 08:57 AM

An easy way out is to check the start up current of the dishwasher. If it less than 10 amps, stick with 10 amp breaker. It will shut the dishwasher down sooner if something jams the pump sometime. No sense touching the breaker box or paying somebody, if you don't need to. The directions may say 15 amps because 15 amp breakers and 14 gage wires are common in dishwasher circuits, not because the dishwasher draws that much current.

When I started with a wire and cable manufacturer 30 years ago, the smallest wire we made for such applications was 14 gage, but that is no proof your circuit is at least that and suitable for a 15 amp breaker.

tkrussell · Jan 13, 2007, 08:59 AM

Not to my knowledge, but one never knows if a DIY did something not to code.

labman · Jan 13, 2007, 09:05 AM

Yes, maybe it was an urban legend, but supposedly somebody used extension wire from the company and wired their house up with it. It burned down. Remember, I live in a county with no building inspection.

labman · Jan 13, 2007, 09:16 AM

From a PM:

''Labman, I have a new dishwasher that recommends a 15 amp dedicated breaker. My old dishwasher has a 10 amp dedicated breaker. The wiring is 14-2 grounded type nm-b 600v. Is it possible to change the breaker to 15 amp and be OK?''

It would be better to have posted that info here, or at least PM'ed tkrussel.
No problem as long as you don't slip and touch the wrong place in the box. I think most dishwashers will do fine on the 10 amp breaker and wouldn't change unless TK says so. Leave well enough alone.

labman · Jan 13, 2007, 09:42 AM

Rather than answer your PM, I am posting this where you will get an answer you can live with.

''The label inside the dishwasher says Motor 1.1a 120v 60HZ
Other 7.6a oper. Amp 10.0A

Appears to me 10 amp is sufficient. What is your call?''

tkrussell · Jan 13, 2007, 10:21 AM

Seems you either do as recommended by the appliance manufacturer, or leave it as is and risk having nuisance tripping of the 10 amp circuit breaker if the amp draw of the new appliance is close to or exceeds 10 amps.

It is only a recommendation, because of the total load the new appliance is rated for, plus a cushion to keep the breaker from tripping.

And Labman, as far as extension cord, no urban legend here, I have seen cord used as building wire all too many times. All it make take is a 10 foot cord that has an air conditioner on it hidden in the wall to heat up and poof, no more house.

labman · Jan 13, 2007, 11:37 AM

I don't doubt burning the house down, just getting the electric company to hook them up. The story was the house was done completely in SJT. At that time, the electrical company set the meter base*. I am hoping they would have refused to do so when they saw all the SJT in the breaker box. Of course, stories get better with age.

*Since Lowe's sells them now, I assume they hope only people that know what they are doing, set them. I don't think the electric company shops at Lowe's.

tkrussell · Jan 13, 2007, 11:53 AM

Wow, now I see what your saying, the whole house in cord!

I do need to give the electric company the benefit of doubt thou, as all they do is come and set the meter, and connect the service, which that I hope was done properly or at least looked like it.

With outdoor meters now, utility companies rarely need to enter the home, and they never have anything to say about how the interior of the home is wired, or rarely get to see the inside of a panel.

Says a great deal of those areas that do not have inspections. I wonder what the owner's insurance carrier had to say?

T-Top · Jan 13, 2007, 04:14 PM

I agree with Tkrussell. Go with what the appliance is rated for make sure the wire is sized for that breaker. If it calls for a 15 amp why question. They do it for your safety. I would go no bigger or smaller.

Merkhi · Jan 13, 2007, 05:13 PM

CRITICAL SAFETY INFORMATION

Anyone considering replacing an existing circuit breaker with a new breaker of different amperage MUST know what they are doing...

Circuit breakers are NOT sized based on the load (amps used) of the appliance. Circuit breakers and fuses exist SOLELY to protect the cable between the service panel and the receptacle or device connection.

The rated amperage on an appliance means little. A malfunctioning device can easily draw twice the operational amperage indicated on the device. Such malfunctions heat the cable and cause fires.

Preventing cable fires is the purpose of the breaker. If the malfunctioning device begins drawing current exceeding the breaker, the circuit is interrupted.

The breaker and cable are rated together.

TKRussell, I'm dumbfounded by your lack of safe input on these issues. IF you are an electrical expert, you know better.

MK

Merkhi · Jan 13, 2007, 05:21 PM

Dirtboy,

Keep in mind that if you install a hardwired device, you may open yourself to a variety of liability issues.

Any work performed by a homeowner is typically covered by the same codes applicable to licensed electricians. Simply because one owns a house does not provide one immunity from liability.

In the unlikely event that your work caused an electrical fire and an insurance company was involved-either for damage/injury to persons or structures on your property or an adjacent property, the insurance company can easily refuse to pay a claim.

Further, the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction elec inspector, bldg inspector, fire chief, etc.) may not allow two devices on one circuit. The AHJ can be more restrictive than the bldg codes in use nationally or in nearby municipalities.

I urge caution when performing electrical wiring. This trade is unlike any other. Testing a newly installed circuit with a meter or light bulb means little. Electrical wiring and overprotection devices are intended to safeguard worst case scenarios.

tkrussell · Jan 13, 2007, 05:42 PM

Merkhi, since your new here, perhaps you should review my previous answers to see what I have to say about safety, and homeowners doing their own work, before you jump down my throat and start accusing me of the lack of safety.

And you may want to review my sticky note at the beginning of the forum:
Electrical Troubleshooting & Repair Frequently Asked Questions

Oh, and yes breakers are sized by the load, branch circuit size is rated 125% of the load. If you like I can recite code article and section.

Overcurrent protection devices are for the purpose of protecting the cable, but based on the load applied to the cable.

But before any code is followed to size branch circuit, the NEC states to follow the manufacturers instructions.

If a meter is not to be used for testing purposes, what would you suggest?

anansit · May 27, 2007, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by dirtboy75

I purchased and ready to install a new diahwasher. The instructions call for a 15 amp circuit breaker. The current breaker is a 10 amp breaker solely for the dishwasher. Can I use the 10 amp or should I change the breaker to 15 amp? How difficult would it be to change?

Its better to switch to 15 amperes rating to aviod nuisance tripping.

ZCCG · May 30, 2007, 12:23 PM

Not that you need or want the praise but,
You The Man TK.
Merkhi,
Your point is well taken but do read more before you attack.
TK is the wrong man to give crap too.
All his advice is good and sound.
Nuff said,
C'ya