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    ms williams's Avatar
    ms williams Posts: 31, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Aug 7, 2008, 06:11 PM
    Raw diet and bones
    Anyone else out there feed there dogs or cats a raw diet? I feed my APBTs organic raw chicken backs and necks along with a cup of dry food, fresh fruit and blanched veggies.
    I was in a discussion on other post were a few people were freaking out over me giving my dogs raw bones. My vet supports my raw diet and in my town there is a large community of people who feed this way. Any more raw pet feeders out there?
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #2

    Aug 7, 2008, 06:24 PM
    I have been wanting to do the homemade pet food thing which sounds about the same.
    Do not give your pet chicken or pork bones that can tear their throat and stomach lining.
    I read that carrots are good for dogs but make sure you have the list of foods you should never feed your pet like onions and grapes.

    1. Onions and garlic- Can damage red blood cells because they contain sulfoxides and disulfides.Can also cause anemia.

    2. Persimmons- May cause enteritis and intestinal obstruction.

    3. Peach and plum pits- Can cause digestive tract obstruction.

    4. Raw fish- May cause loss of appetite, seizures, and may cause death if fed regularly, because raw fish causes a thiamine deficiency.

    5. Sugary foods- May cause Diabetes Mellitus, dental problems, and obesity.

    6. Table scraps- Never feed in large amounts. Bones should never be fed, and fat should be trimmed from meat and fed sparingly.

    7. String- May become trapped in the digestive system causing it to have to be removed.

    8. Salt- If fed in large quantities, can cause an electrolyte imbalance.

    9. Yeast dough- Can cause pain and rupturing in the digestive system.

    10. Tobacco- May result in rapid heartbeat, collapse, coma, and death, because tobacco contains nicotine.

    11. Raw eggs- Raw eggs may contain Salmonella. They also contain an enzyme known as avidin, which decreases the absorption of biotin.

    12.Mushrooms - May contain toxins, which can affect several organ systems, cause shock and even death.

    13. Hops- Causes panting, fever, elevated heart rate, seizure and possibly death because of an unknown compound.

    14. Spoiled food or garbage- Can contain many toxins which may cause diarrhea and vomiting.

    15. Dairy products- Can result in diarrhea because adult dogs and cats do not have enough of the enzyme lactase, which breaks down the lactose in milk. There is lactose-free products available for pets.

    16. Liver- If fed in large amounts, can cause Vitamin A toxicity, which affects muscles and bones.

    17. Macadamia nuts- They contain an unknown toxin, and can affect the nervous system, muscles, and digestive system.

    18. Vitamin supplements for people- Supplements that contain iron can cause damage to many organs and harm the lining of the digestive system.

    19. Raisins and grapes- May damage the kidneys because of an unknown toxin.

    20. Baby food- May contain onion powder, which can be toxic to dogs.

    21. Alcoholic drinks- Can cause coma, death, and intoxication.

    22. Bones from fish, poultry, and other meats- Can cause laceration and blockage of the digestive system.

    23. Chocolate, coffee, tea, and other caffeine containing products- Contains theobromine, theophylline ,and caffeine, which can be toxic and affect the heart and nervous system.

    24. Cat food- Usually contains too much protein and fats for dogs.

    25. Citrus oil- May cause vomiting.

    26. Fat trimmings- May cause pancreatitis.
    ms williams's Avatar
    ms williams Posts: 31, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Aug 7, 2008, 06:52 PM
    Thanks for the in put. Raw bones are an important part of their diet. Don't know where you got your list but there are a bunch of people out there that base their diets around raw and bones. Check out the BARF diet. I think with the recent pet food scare you will start seeing a lot more about raw and home made food.
    I agree with a lot of things on your list but some are a little silly. Eggs are actually very good for dogs (not daily). They can even eat the shells for calcium. Cottage cheese is also a good digestive aid. Dogs are naturally scavengers and can digest and handle microrganisims we cannot. Samonella and e.coli do not effect dogs like they do humans. I'm not saying spoiled food is great but it won't kill them.
    I love my girls.trust me they are spoiled and I pride myself on feeding them only the best. Except for their dry food (artemis) they eat fresh and all organic.
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #4

    Aug 7, 2008, 06:59 PM
    ms williams how old are your dogs and how long have you been feeding this way?
    ms williams's Avatar
    ms williams Posts: 31, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Aug 7, 2008, 07:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by bushg
    ms williams how old are your dogs and how long have you been feeding this way?

    They are 4 and 3 1/2 and feeding them this raw diet since I got them. One was 6 weeks the other was 11wks when I got her. Ground bones until they were about 6 months. Then switched to just giving them the backs and necks.
    israelissick's Avatar
    israelissick Posts: 14, Reputation: 3
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    #6

    Aug 9, 2008, 09:46 AM
    Hello, I also have 2 American PitBulls. One is 2 yrs the other 3 months. They both eat a raw food diet mostly consisting of chicken as well and they thrive on it. Everyone comments on how healthy, large, muscualr, and soft they are. So I commend you on feeding your dogs this way. I too get the OMG YOU can't FEED YOUR DOG THAT response. Those people are just ignorant.
    NoHelpForU I also don't know where you got your list either. My dogs eat yougurt once a week, raw whole eggs once a week, raw whole fish often. Do some more research before handing out advice. The only bones that are dangerous to dogs are cooked bones.
    So Ms Williams your dogs look beautiful and you are a wonderful owner don't let the dry feeders get to you. The only advice I would give you is to cut out kibble completely IT IS NO GOOD.
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #7

    Aug 9, 2008, 10:19 AM
    Israelisisck nohelp was only trying to provide a lsit of foods that could potentially be harmful to pets, I do not think she was telling anyone how to feed their dogs and I for one take offense to the manner in which you spoke to her.

    I think people have the right to explore different methods of feeding their dogs. But by the same token you did not give a exact method, how much, how often etc... to feed a dog only that you recommend raw feeding. Some times a little information can be dangerous, not everyone would read your info and go on to research they may just feed what you listed and throw in whatever they feel is not "dry food" potentially causing their pets serious harm. So exercise the same caution as you advised nohelp. For those interested.
    What Is The Bone Composition and Nutritional Value of Feeding Raw Bones To Dogs?
    And
    Nutrition Principles For Feeding Dogs and Cats... Presented By ThePetCenter.com
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #8

    Aug 9, 2008, 12:00 PM
    I know people that feed their dogs chocolate and sharp bones and they also say they see no harm in it since it is slowly shutting down their organs or whatever rather than an instant I have to take my dog to the vet NOW.

    Here are just SOME of the sites that I got the list from

    ASPCA: Pet Care: Animal Poison Control: Top 10 People Foods to Avoid Feeding Your Pets

    Avoid These Foods for Dogs

    The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid
    ms williams's Avatar
    ms williams Posts: 31, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Aug 9, 2008, 11:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u
    I know people that feed their dogs chocolate and sharp bones and they also say they see no harm in it since it is slowly shutting down their organs or whatever rather than an instant I have to take my dog to the vet NOW.

    Here are just SOME of the sites that I got the list from

    ASPCA: Pet Care: Animal Poison Control: Top 10 People Foods to Avoid Feeding Your Pets

    Avoid These Foods for Dogs

    The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid
    Looking at those sites it seems what they are probably all referring to are the "rendered" meats & by-products (most commercial dog foods are made with these and who knows what else). The one site even said not to consume those unless followed by the words "used as a preservative". They also discourage processed meat products because you can not be assured of the quality of meat. Yes, all of those meat sources are bad. They would be like feeding my dogs the equivalent of KFC. The chicken I feed my dogs is certified organic, free range chicken. No processing. No unclean practices. I would never walk in to a safeway and buy ground beef for them either.conventional red meats are injected with red dyes and preservatives to make them appear "fresh". Only the one site (SPCA) said anything about raw bones . The other site, " avoid these foods for dogs" said nothing negative about raw only cooked bones.
    Most dog foods are fillers funk corn and grains. There are(or were) no fda regulations on dog food. The ingredients can say 100% serloin beef and it does not have to contain 1 once of beef. That's how we got plastic from china in the dog food. No regulations.
    Rendered meat is anything from road kill & collected deer, horse and dead cow pick ups.
    I don't eat junk and I am not going to feed my dogs that either. I'm lucky to work in a place where I can purchase these safe items. I would not eat dyed meat or hormone inject meat. I would not give it to my dogs.
    You may not agree on the raw bones but I feel sure I make a better meal than a bag can give them.
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #10

    Aug 10, 2008, 06:15 AM
    israelissick disagrees: junk


    You may call it junk but I thought it was a pretty indepth, unbiased article of how to feed dogs... I myself feed human food to my dogs but I have never given them bones exactly for the reasons this vet discussed... I'm not taking a chance on harming my dogs with splintered bones, his x-rays proved that it could happen.
    People can feed their dogs however, I have no problem with nondry feeding methods, but people need to be cautious with bones. If You call that junk well I guess you have a right to your opinion. I just hope those people that are considering feeding their dogs bones read up on the pros and cons of it.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #11

    Aug 10, 2008, 06:20 AM
    I am NOT saying do not feed your dog good meat or other alternative's.
    I am just saying beware of what people foods you do choose to feed your dog.
    God knows I want to make the switch from dry dog food to a good homemade alternative for my pit too. You just need to be ware that you do need to make it healthy for the dog as well as balancing it to a dogs specific needs --like the 21% protein etc...
    Can you say you think people should just start feeding their dogs anything without studying what is good vs bad for their dog? Even though you may feed your dog quality meat doesn't mean that others reading this post aren't going to take it to mean it is okay to stuff their dog up on hot dogs and harmful fruits or veggies.
    froggy7's Avatar
    froggy7 Posts: 1,801, Reputation: 242
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    #12

    Aug 10, 2008, 07:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ms williams
    most dog foods are fillers funk corn and grains. there are(or were) no fda regulations on dog food. the ingredients can say 100% serloin beef and it does not have to contain 1 once of beef. thats how we got plastic from china in the dog food. no regulations.
    I just want to point out that there are regulations on pet foods. And those regulations are pretty strict on what is called what. (Beef meal, for example, has to be beef... no chicken, lamb, or other animal product in it. And the rules are out there for how things get labeled on the front of the can... there is a defined difference between "beef dinner" and "dinner with beef", for example. So your example is just flat out wrong.) I'm not sure if it's FDA or USDA which covers those... they have joint regulatory powers over food under the law. How we got plastic in dog food is not because of lack of regulations... it's because someone lied in order to meet them. Further, human food is regulated by the same people as pet food (pet food is really regulated because we are concerned about what animals that are going to be butchered for human use are eating, and dog and cat foods just go along for the ride.) So, you are trusting the same people to say that the beef you buy to feed your dog is safe as you would be buying dog food.

    And finally... the rules are very loose when you get to terms like "natural" and "cage-free". Organic, I think has some rules on it, if it is Certified organic, not if someone is just slapping "organic" on the bag. For an example of the confusion... if I wanted to raise turkeys by the hundreds in quonset huts, feed them turkey chow laced with antibiotics and additives, and never let them outside, I could label them as "cage-free" turkeys. After all, there are no cages involved. But my factory farm is not what most people think of when they hear cage-free.
    ms williams's Avatar
    ms williams Posts: 31, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Aug 10, 2008, 05:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by froggy7
    I just want to point out that there are regulations on pet foods. And those regulations are pretty strict on what is called what. (Beef meal, for example, has to be beef... no chicken, lamb, or other animal product in it. And the rules are out there for how things get labeled on the front of the can... there is a defined difference between "beef dinner" and "dinner with beef", for example. So your example is just flat out wrong.) I'm not sure if it's FDA or USDA which covers those... they have joint regulatory powers over food under the law. How we got plastic in dog food is not because of lack of regulations... it's because someone lied in order to meet them. Further, human food is regulated by the same people as pet food (pet food is really regulated because we are concerned about what animals that are going to be butchered for human use are eating, and dog and cat foods just go along for the ride.) So, you are trusting the same people to say that the beef you buy to feed your dog is safe as you would be buying dog food.

    And finally... the rules are very loose when you get to terms like "natural" and "cage-free". Organic, I think has some rules on it, if it is Certified organic, not if someone is just slapping "organic" on the bag. For an example of the confusion... if I wanted to raise turkeys by the hundreds in quonset huts, feed them turkey chow laced with antibiotics and additives, and never let them outside, I could label them as "cage-free" turkeys. After all, there are no cages involved. But my factory farm is not what most people think of when they hear cage-free.
    Organics is my business. I know the ends and outs of organics. The CCOF is the highest of all the certifiers. Not that it matters but my chickens are free range org. ccof cerified. "USDA and FDA approved" mean nothing to me. I am looking for the certification when I purchase for myself and my dogs. Fda and usda do not regulate pet food like human food even though they claim that they do. My sources on that are lectures and books. 2 off the top of my head are "fast food nation" and a man called the mad cowboy. I forget his name but you can Google him and his info pops up. Fda and the usda approve garbage for human consumption so I don't hold their opinion in the highest regard.
    As far as "loose terms " go you have the fda directly to thank for the weakening of the terms and the blurring of lines. They got involved with organics and natural foods about 10yrs ago now and lowered all the standards. That's why it is that there are so many organic certifiers and many broad terms that lead people to believe that they are choosing a better safer product when they actually are not. Like I said, I am in the organic business I could elaborate for days.
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    froggy7 Posts: 1,801, Reputation: 242
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    #14

    Aug 10, 2008, 08:40 PM
    A lot of the problem with the food situation is that it is split between the two agencies, FDA and USDA. So, FDA gets to do some of the job of regulating it, but not all of it, and USDA gets to do some of it, but not all of it. And that never works as well as when you have one group doing the whole job. There's been some discussion of realigning the food laws so that it does all fall under one agency, but things like that take a lot of time.

    The other big problem is simply resources. FDA is dreadfully underfunded for everything that it is expected to do. To give a simple example: there are approximately 650 FDA field investigators. These are the people who investigate food, drug, and device recalls to see what the problem is, how big it is, etc. 400 of them were working on the pet food recall. Considering that that was happening at the same time as some other high profile recalls, you can begin to comprehend the amount of resources that are needed.
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    lil TJ Posts: 6, Reputation: 3
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    #15

    Aug 12, 2008, 06:51 PM
    Hi Ms Williams

    I breed Smooth Fox Terriers and Great Danes and we have been feeding a Raw Natural diet since 2000. We do not feed a BARF diet. I work as a vet tech, and the vets at my clinic argree with my feeding choices.

    You are not alone out there. Many breeders are feeding this way, many agility and working homes, and many many Dane Breeders as well.

    Jaime
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    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #16

    Aug 12, 2008, 08:20 PM
    Yes, it's good to see this discussed. I got a "reddie" once for recommending raw food for dogs.

    Just this morning I had a conversation with a Greyhound rescuer. She has operated a kennel, for years. I asked her about the raw food thing. She said that if the bones are not cooked, they're pretty safe. She recommended poultry necks be cause they do not contain bone, but cartilage. She also mentioned that dogs have evolved eating their meat raw and consuming the intestines of herbivores which contain veggies. She assured me that the dogs are healthier when they consume a non-dry-food diet.
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    lil TJ Posts: 6, Reputation: 3
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    #17

    Aug 13, 2008, 08:01 AM
    Hi there

    Here is a sample week of feeding for my dogs. This would not suit everyone's dogs but I know mine and it works for us.

    Monday - ground chicken with bone ground in, with fish oil and soe organ meat
    Tuesday - beef bones that the dogs can consume with lots of meat on them
    Wednesday - fast day no food
    Thursday - whole fish - no pacific salmon as they can contain nasty flukes that can harm/kill a dog
    Friday - ground beef with bones in and eggs over top whole eggs including the shell
    Saturday - Whole rabbit ( including fur and innards)
    Sunday - Either large chunks of goat meat and bone or whole chunks of beef meat and bone

    That's a rough schedule some days change.

    Jaime
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #18

    Aug 13, 2008, 08:28 AM
    Wow I can't believe you go a day without feeding what about bloat?
    israelissick's Avatar
    israelissick Posts: 14, Reputation: 3
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    #19

    Aug 13, 2008, 09:40 AM
    If you research you will see that fasting once a week is highly recommended. In the wild dogs probably wouldn't get a meal every day. What does not feeding for a day have to do with bloat? Bloat is almost unheard of for raw feeders.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #20

    Aug 13, 2008, 10:25 AM
    Bloating I think usually is from too much undigested food in your stomach and intestines.

    Anyway Just wanted to add only a couple reasons I do not trust the FDA
    Besides all the pet food recalls

    Fluoride Videos Collection of Fluoride Videos

    Drug companies discredit negative studies and blacklist honest researchers

    Drug companies push all these drugs and then cover it up by paying of the families until there are so many deaths that can be directly related to the drug itself then they pull it like they did with Vioxx.

    I don't trust a lot of the stuff, even human food. They say that we could be eating mad cow now because only a small percentage of cows are tested. Some could have contracted it but not gotten to the stage of showing signs by the time they are slaughtered.
    Do we know how long the longest mad cow could maybe possibly sit dormant in humans before they show signs? I don't know, I heard it is a possibility. I heard mad cow is from cows being fed meat rather than grain and unless the meat says free range, organic or whatever we have less of a chance of knowing how harmful it may be.

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