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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #81

    Jul 17, 2021, 07:12 AM
    In our country, the feds have five basic responsibilities. 1. Establish Justice, 2.Insure domestic Tranquility 3.Provide for the common defense 4.Promote the general Welfare. 5.Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #82

    Jul 17, 2021, 12:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    Fascism is the far right wing of the political spectrum- not the left wing
    Quote Originally Posted by https://www.diffen.com/difference/Left_Wing_vs_Right_Wing
    [The left is] in favor of radical change, socialism and republicanism

    [The right is] in opposition to radical change and desire to preserve traditional society, the more you were to the right. Tradition, institutional religion and privatization of economy were considered the core values of the right-wing.
    Similar sentiments can be found in Wikipedia.

    Wikipedia places fascism on the Right, but I think this is a mistake on their part...lets examine the description of fascism there:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state, and technology.
    Massive changes = Left (Conservative is on the right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing economic production and logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.
    Powerful State, control of economic production = Left (Communism is on the Left)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Italian Fascism had been subverted by Italian conservatives and the bourgeoisie.[68] Then the new Fascist government proposed the creation of workers' councils and profit-sharing in industry
    Still sounds leftish to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The October Revolution of 1917—in which Bolshevik communists led by Vladimir Lenin seized power in Russia—greatly influenced the development of fascism.[122] In 1917, Mussolini, as leader of the Fasces of Revolutionary Action, praised the October Revolution

    Liberal opponents of both fascism and the Bolsheviks argue that there are various similarities between the two, including that they believed in the necessity of a vanguard leadership, had disdain for bourgeois values and it is argued had totalitarian ambitions.
    Loving the other leftists? Not for long (Marxists promoted internationalism, while Fascists promoted nationalism).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In 1919, Alceste De Ambris and Futurist movement leader Filippo Tommaso Marinetti created The Manifesto of the Italian Fasces of Combat (the Fascist Manifesto).[125] The Manifesto was presented on 6 June 1919 in the Fascist newspaper Il Popolo d'Italia. The Manifesto supported the creation of universal suffrage for both men and women (the latter being realized only partly in late 1925, with all opposition parties banned or disbanded);[126] proportional representation on a regional basis; government representation through a corporatist system of "National Councils" of experts, selected from professionals and tradespeople, elected to represent and hold legislative power over their respective areas, including labour, industry, transportation, public health, communications, etc.; and the abolition of the Italian Senate.[127] The Manifesto supported the creation of an eight-hour work day for all workers, a minimum wage, worker representation in industrial management, equal confidence in labour unions as in industrial executives and public servants, reorganization of the transportation sector, revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance, reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55, a strong progressive tax on capital, confiscation of the property of religious institutions and abolishment of bishoprics
    Sound familiar? Go leftists!
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    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #83

    Jul 17, 2021, 01:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete
    We know pure communism doesn't work, socialism has worked in various implementations and capitalism works for some, but every system leaves a large number of poor struggling for existence
    Socialism does not work. Socialist policies seem acceptable in a capitalist society, however, the end goal of socialism is communism (Lenin)...which doesn't work at all. Capitalism, on the other hand, has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system.

    As a matter of fact, socialist policies tend to do the opposite of what people say it does.

    Higher taxation (especially the more progressive taxation) slows growth and investment, creates wage stagnation, and provides overall lower government revenue.

    Healthcare regulation and policies like ObamaCare have driven healthcare costs through the roof.

    An increase in federal stimulus payments has lead to the lowest labor participation rate since the 70's.

    The social security program is nearly broke.

    Farm subsidies keep food costs high, create billions in waste every year, and largely benefit the rich.

    The public school system is a disaster (economically and educationally).

    Corporate bail-outs give incentive for poorly run corporations and their leaders.

    The government funding of transportation is a boondoggle wasting billions at a time on failed ideas.


    And they tell us, we need more government control and more social programs!
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #84

    Jul 17, 2021, 02:04 PM
    Capitalism would work better, if we let it.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,608, Reputation: 5430
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    #85

    Jul 17, 2021, 02:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post
    Capitalism would work better, if we let it.
    Please list three ways capitalism would work better.
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #86

    Jul 17, 2021, 03:13 PM
    Abolish the Federal reserve, reduce banking regulations, force banks to carry their own risk, bring back the gold standard. (FDIC might be OK, if people who wanted pay for it)
    --This would nearly stop inflation. This would strengthen the US dollar. Inflation is a government tax on savings. This would be equivalent to a 2-6% raise for everyone while protecting any liquid assets from devaluation.

    Eliminate all health insurance regulation, regulate cost and treatment transparency among providers, reduce the FDA footprint in the industry.
    --While this would cause quite a stir, the insurance companies would no longer be able to dictate the cost of healthcare when millions drop out of the game, bring down cost among providers, reduce the need for insurance, eliminate the bureaucratic barriers the account for more than 20% of healthcare costs.

    End all entitlement programs and progressive taxes and end the minimum wage.
    --This would incentivize individual responsibility, allow for increased upward class mobility, reward good behavior, eliminate government debt, and increase private demands on corporations to treat their workers fairly. Regarding the poor, sick, and elderly...there would be less need overall, but that can be subsidized privately by good people as it was for 150yrs of US history.

    These, combined with financial literacy training in schools would put the power in the hands of the people and capitalism would take off like a rocket.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #87

    Jul 17, 2021, 03:14 PM
    1. Reward. Those who have the courage and innovative ideas to start new products get to reap the rewards.

    2. General prosperity. There has never been a system more useful for the prosperity of the middle class than capitalism, better known, in my view, as free enterprise. As jobs increase, as they did under the Trump admin, everyone benefits.

    3. Freedom. The forgotten word of our age. We have the freedom to either take our own ideas and advance them, or assist someone else in his or her economic adventure.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,608, Reputation: 5430
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    #88

    Jul 17, 2021, 03:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post
    Capitalism would work better, if we let it.
    Please list three disadvantages of capitalism.
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    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #89

    Jul 17, 2021, 03:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl
    Please list three disadvantages of capitalism.
    1. Corporatism often results in abuse of workers. This was prominently seen during the industrial revolution.

    2. Pollution could greatly increase, if the top players are left unchecked.

    3. Again, as seen during the industrial revolution, monopolization is often the result of unchecked capitalism.

    I would like to point out though, that we have checks against these, and although lacking, I am not opposed to these things. We could strengthen worker protections, enforce the antitrust laws, and get the EPA out of the corporation's pockets.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #90

    Jul 17, 2021, 08:25 PM
    so basically slave labour, monopolies, pollution and we should tolerate this, why? it seems both systems lead down the same road, only the propaganda differs
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #91

    Jul 17, 2021, 09:01 PM
    so basically slave labour, monopolies, pollution and we should tolerate this, why?
    Slave labor? Really? Average annual wage U.S. is 46 U.S. dollars an hour. Average annual wage is Australia is 44 Aussie dollars which converts to about 33 U.S. dollars. Sounds like the slave labor is more on your side of the pond.

    What monopolies are you referring to?

    What pollution problem in the U.S. is worse than in China or Australia, especially considering that our population is about ten times greater than yours?

    Once again, I just don't think your facts are straight.



    WG, I don't know of a disadvantage of free enterprise per se other than when monopolies are allowed to run wild. Slave labor and excess pollution have nothing to do with capitalism. What disadvantages would you list?
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #92

    Jul 18, 2021, 12:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Slave labor? Really? Average annual wage U.S. is 46 U.S. dollars an hour. Average annual wage is Australia is 44 Aussie dollars which converts to about 33 U.S. dollars. Sounds like the slave labor is more on your side of the pond.
    WHo has more million/billionaires, the serious skews these figures...

    What monopolies are you referring to?
    You ranted about some earlier in this thread....
    These mega-corps.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #93

    Jul 18, 2021, 03:15 AM
    WHo has more million/billionaires, the serious skews these figures...
    As I understand those stats, salaried employees do affect hourly wage stats, but I don't think incomes from capital gains or incomes from privately owned businesses do. Would have to double check that.

    If we go by average annual wage, which is calculated simply by dividing total income by total working population, the U.S. still has a significant advantage by 65K per year vs. 54K in Australia, but that is one that high income earners would skew some. Teachers, for instance, earn an average of 62K in the U.S. They earn 55K in U.S. dollars in Australia. My point, of course, was that any comment about "slave labor" was simply ignorant.

    You ranted about some earlier in this thread....
    These mega-corps.
    You mean the ones that your ranted on and on were actually NOT monopolies? Kind of selective with your views, aren't you?
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #94

    Jul 18, 2021, 03:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    As I understand those stats, salaried employees do affect hourly wage stats, but I don't think incomes from capital gains or incomes from privately owned businesses do. Would have to double check that.

    If we go by average annual wage, which is calculated simply by dividing total income by total working population, the U.S. still has a significant advantage by 65K per year vs. 54K in Australia, but that is one that high income earners would skew some. Teachers, for instance, earn an average of 62K in the U.S. They earn 55K in U.S. dollars in Australia. My point, of course, was that any comment about "slave labor" was simply ignorant.
    However once you take into account major outgoings and differences, such as health insurance and other costs of living the picture becomes alot clearer.
    You are comparing different fruits again.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #95

    Jul 18, 2021, 05:49 AM
    However once you take into account major outgoings and differences
    Fine. Show us the numbers. Until then it's just pure conjecture on your part that has the ring of prejudice.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #96

    Jul 18, 2021, 08:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Fine. Show us the numbers. Until then it's just pure conjecture on your part that has the ring of prejudice.
    Not at all.
    You are the one comparing US and Aus salaries, without addressing the obvious differences.

    What's the average monthly outgoing for health insurance for a US citizen.
    There's a lot to be said for universal health care.

    Canada, Aus and UK pay for basic health care as part of our employment taxation, which is centrally managed by Government.
    Private healthcare is available at an additional cost, but not compulsory for a decent life.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #97

    Jul 18, 2021, 08:24 AM
    Still no numbers. All conjecture. What about the extra tax burden borne by Aussies? Did you factor that in?

    Until I see the math, you have no case. But even at that, my original point was that the "slave labor" comment was just ridiculous and had no connection with reality. The comparison of teacher salaries was pretty enlightening considering that their med insurance is typically provided here as well as a generous retirement program.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
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    #98

    Jul 18, 2021, 09:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Still no numbers. All conjecture. What about the extra tax burden borne by Aussies? Did you factor that in?

    Until I see the math, you have no case. But even at that, my original point was that the "slave labor" comment was just ridiculous and had no connection with reality. The comparison of teacher salaries was pretty enlightening considering that their med insurance is typically provided here as well as a generous retirement program.
    I asked YOU to consider the differences in salary between USA and Aus.
    Bearing in mind that Aus has universal healthcare and therefore don't have the mandatory additional outgoings from their salaries.
    (The same is true for Canada and UK)
    It is YOUR conjecture that Aus salaries are close to slavery, therefore it is up to you to actually give a balanced picture rather than relying on misleading headline figures.

    Just to remind what YOU said:

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Average annual wage U.S. is 46 U.S. dollars an hour. Average annual wage is Australia is 44 Aussie dollars which converts to about 33 U.S. dollars. Sounds like the slave labor is more on your side of the pond.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,123, Reputation: 155
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    #99

    Jul 18, 2021, 10:22 AM
    I asked YOU to consider the differences in salary between USA and Aus.
    No, you did not. You are claiming that their lower wages are made up by government programs, but you have done nothing to demonstrate that other than just asking us to take your word for it. Ain't gonna happen with me. Prove your point with data.
    Bearing in mind that Aus has universal healthcare and therefore don't have the mandatory additional outgoings from their salaries.
    (The same is true for Canada and UK)
    Again. Do the math.
    It is YOUR conjecture that Aus salaries are close to slavery, therefore it is up to you to actually give a balanced picture rather than relying on misleading headline figures.
    Total lie. I have never said or even implied that. You need to either show where I said it, or correct your statement. That was a statement (slave labor) made by Clete about capitalism. I have presented no conjecture at all. I have SHOWN WITH DATA that wages in the U.S. are higher than in Australia. That is no criticism of Australia or praise of the United States. It was simply to demonstrate that his "slave labor" statement was ridiculous.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #100

    Jul 18, 2021, 10:25 AM
    And the award for twisting whatever is posted to suit their own agenda goes to.....

    Back to the thread in hand please.

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