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tomder55 · Feb 18, 2017, 11:25 AM

At least 340 VA employees spent 100 percent of their working hours on union business in fiscal 2015.About 90 nurses, three addiction therapists, 13 nursing assistants and three pharmacists were among those at VA who spent 100 percent of their normal work hours on official union time instead of doing the duties they were hired to do by the taxpayers .

Union leaders are allowed to handle union business, such as negotiations or handling grievances, during their normal work hours; this is known as “official time.” The Congressional GAO investigated this issue at the behest of the House Veterans Affairs Committee which held hearings on the issue yesterday .The GAO had a difficult time tracking the number of hours being spent on 'official business 'at the VA because the VA uses two separate systems to track official time ;and because the VA does not adequately train its employees on how to track official time, or how to enter that information into its system.GAO’s rough estimate is that more than 1.1 million hours of official time were logged at VA last year.

With many veterans still waiting for care, lawmakers were astounded that some VA employees spent all of their normal work hours on activities other than seeing patients and addressing veterans’ claims.

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-conte.../02/kovacs.pdf

“I don’t believe the average American would see this as reasonable or as necessary,” said Rep. Jodey Arrington, R-Texas, chairman of the subcommittee on economic opportunity. “I believe the average American would be outraged.”

https://www.stripes.com/news/lawmake...ities-1.454396

Wondergirl · Feb 18, 2017, 11:54 AM

So, what's the solution?

tomder55 · Feb 18, 2017, 12:32 PM

Simple ;Government is not just another industry . In theory it only provides essential services that the private sector can't or doesn't . The very nature of collective bargaining and collective job action by government employees is holding the taxpayer hostage to the public union. Also it is a terrible conflict of interest when they can negotiate their wage and benefits with the very politicians they use their collective power to elect . Union victories produce incumbents. The incumbent becomes beholden to the union and not to the public ,and anyone running against the incumbent had better have the union backing if they want a chance to win. Just this example at the VA proves how corrupted the system is .

Here is a letter written by FDR that explains it .

The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.
All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.
Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."
I congratulate the National Federation of Federal Employees the twentieth anniversary of its founding and trust that the convention will, in every way, be successful.

Very sincerely yours,

FDR letter to Mr. Luther C. Steward,
President, National Federation of Federal Employees,

Roosevelt was not alone in holding these views . The first president of the AFL-CIO, George Meany, believed it was "impossible to bargain collectively with the government."

In 1943, a New York Supreme Court judge held:

To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.

Wondergirl · Feb 18, 2017, 12:35 PM

That's what's wrong. I asked, What's the solution?

tomder55 · Feb 18, 2017, 12:59 PM

The answer should be self evident ;disband the American Federation of Government Employees.

Well we know that aint going to happen so as an alternative ,union reps should not get paid by the taxpayer for doing union business. That should come out of union dues. Congress has to act to make that happen ,and to make sure there is accurate reporting and logging of the time that union reps are actually doing the people's business, and the times they are doing union business.

Wondergirl · Feb 18, 2017, 01:09 PM

Who will oversee this?

Who then will do the office work?

tomder55 · Feb 18, 2017, 01:35 PM

Who will oversee this?

Who then will do the office work?

That part is already being done . IF the union people don't register their time properly then they are subject to dismissal and possible criminal charges ,just like in the private sector .If their bosses knowingly let them abuse the system then they should also be subject to the same penalties .

I don't punch a clock . I go on the computer and log in my time. I had better be accurate . Like I already said ;Congress has to remove any ambiguity in the law.

talaniman · Feb 18, 2017, 01:49 PM

Union busting is always the solution for conservatives who prefer small government, cheap labor, and no regulations.

Nice try blaming the problems of the VA on unions, but bogus as blaming the deficiencies of education on the teachers union.

Wondergirl · Feb 18, 2017, 01:57 PM

Cheap labor too often means poor results.

talaniman · Feb 18, 2017, 01:59 PM

Note. I added to my post.

tomder55 · Feb 18, 2017, 02:49 PM

Nice try but I sourced my info from the GAO .Deny the facts that there are many union reps in the VA who do not do their jobs related to patient care .

talaniman · Feb 18, 2017, 03:29 PM

No your sources as linked are from, Testimony before Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity and Subcommittee on GovernmentOperationsFebruary 16, 2017William Lawrence Kovacs IIILabor Policy AnalystCompetitive Enterprise Institute, and By NIKKI WENTLING | STARS AND STRIPES.

This is a better link along with the recommendations for improvement.

http://gao.gov/products/GAO-17-105

What GAO Recommends

GAO is making three recommendations to VA including that it provide consistent guidance and training on how to record official time in VATAS and that it take steps to collect more reliable data from facilities. VA agreed with GAO's recommendations and stated that it would take action to address them.
For more information, contact Cindy Brown Barnes at (202) 512-7215 or [email protected].

Nothing about disbanding the union or even what you call abuses.

tomder55 · Feb 18, 2017, 04:43 PM

yeah my solution is not in the GAO report . But mine is the correct response . The GAO measures are half responses that I addressed after I made the concession that my remedy would not happen.

Athos · Feb 19, 2017, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

No your sources as linked are from, Testimony before Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity and Subcommittee on GovernmentOperationsFebruary 16, 2017William Lawrence Kovacs IIILabor Policy AnalystCompetitive Enterprise Institute, and By NIKKI WENTLING | STARS AND STRIPES.

Nothing about disbanding the union or even what you call abuses.

Nice catch, Tal - you never can trust those righties.

tomder55 · Feb 19, 2017, 03:47 AM

Typical lefty thinking that 340 VA employees spending 100 percent of their working hours on union business instead of servicing Vets in need is not an abuse . The VA is a joke that needs major reforms ,and one of the major reasons it is a joke is because it is run as a typical unionized government jobs program .

That number was in the GAO report (actually the number was 346 employees ..... overall 1,057,000 hours of time spent doing union business instead of helping Vets ....are you saying this is not an abuse ? ).'Stars and Stripes 'referenced the report .Are you guys unwilling or unable to follow the links ;or do you need spoon feeding ? Here knock yourselves out reading it if you think that 'Stars and Stripes ' is some right wing propaganda site that can't be trusted to honestly report the facts. Tal your summary is not the full GAO report ,and my OP said that part of the problem was that VA reporting methods are inadequate .

The GAO had a difficult time tracking the number of hours being spent on 'official business 'at the VA because the VA uses two separate systems to track official time ;and because the VA does not adequately train its employees on how to track official time, or how to enter that information into its system.GAO’s rough estimate is that more than 1.1 million hours of official time were logged at VA last year.

Here is the GAO report .
http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/682250.pdf

talaniman · Feb 19, 2017, 08:48 AM

You didn't have to go far to see the problems Tom,

The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) cannot accurately track the amount of work time employees spend on union representational activities, referred to as official time, agency-wide because it does not have a standardized way for its facilities to record and calculate official time.

AND

In rolling out the new system, which VA expects to complete agency-wide in 2018, VA has provided inconsistent training and guidance on how to use the codes in VATAS. While VA has taken steps to provide better training and guidance on recording official time, GAO recently found that timekeepers at two of three selected facilities where VATAS has been rolled out were still not using the codes.Without consistent guidance and training, personnel may not know howto properly record official time in the new system.

Still a work in progress.

Fr_Chuck · Feb 19, 2017, 08:49 AM

Let me look at it, this way, there are about 312,000 employees in the VA. So each union rep is having to deal with about 940 or so employee issues at any given time. If anyone has worked in a large scale union shop, that is actually impressive that they can do it, with only that few union hours.

Those numbers to the bad service, just show they need to improve the work methods, and hire more workers, Which is done in union shops, where they know they have to have union reps. With the VA, they reps also have to travel often to different locations, for the 100's of small offices.

tomder55 · Feb 19, 2017, 10:32 AM

Then the unions should hire them and not the American taxpayer . That was part of the point I was raising about why government work should not be unionized .

talaniman · Feb 19, 2017, 11:07 AM

Interesting question of who does pay for government union workers, taxpayers which means tight budget constraints, or dues paying members, which again may involve budgetary limits. Hard to get good cheap SKILLED help in America nowadays isn't it?

PS

Tell that to Trump and his big beautiful WALL!

tomder55 · Feb 19, 2017, 11:17 AM

Tell that to Trump and his big beautiful WALL!

Not happening ;he'll never get the easements through eminent domain ,and the Environmental Impact through all the court challenges .I saw a 50 acre project held up for years and finally abandoned because of spotted newts and timber rattlers .