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talaniman · Jan 23, 2019, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

At the risk of being called racist, you have noted the high crime rate, etc, among the black population, but such statistics are not confined to the american black population, they are observed among black populations of various ethnicity in various places where they are a minority population. So, two observations; perhaps the eminent researcher who concluded that black persons are not as smart might be right, it might be genetic. Two; the victim mentality and the poverty trap. These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses

Your no racist, just a bit prejudiced and misinformed but I would like to know more about these black populations of various ethnicity in greater detail. Also I am curious about your observation #2. Who sets the poverty trap?

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I don't see it as racial, but it is likely true that when people are allowed, or even encouraged, to see themselves as victims, then their problems automatically become the fault of others. That's why I hate seeing this emphasis on institutional racism. It makes a big deal out of a small deal.

I would feel very insulted if I didn't know you are clueless about the black experience in this country, but your solutions are just as old.bible thumper. I say that with affection and without judgement... or malice.

jlisenbe · Jan 23, 2019, 07:24 PM

My remarks did not mention the black population. You are the one who assumed that. In fact, I said I didn't see it as a racial item.

As to being a "Bible thumper", I wear that badge with honor.

If honoring family, honoring education, and honoring hard work are too old for your tastes, then I would suggest you start thumping the Bible a little yourself. It would solve 90% of the problems of those who do not honor those qualities, especially if "honoring God" was put at the head of the line.

Said with great affection and no malice. Sincerely.

paraclete · Jan 24, 2019, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

#2. Who sets the poverty trap?

.

Socialist society. By insisting upon welfare what we get is a situation where jumping over that divide between a welfare recipient and an income earner is very difficult becauce the difference between welfare and low end wage may be nonexistent. This is why the minimum wage should be a living wage, not a youth wage

jlisenbe · Jan 24, 2019, 04:22 AM

This is why the minimum wage should be a living wage, not a youth wage

That's an interesting proposition. I could be talked into considering it, but I have two, huge hesitations. If we go to let's say fifteen dollars an hour, then we will lose a lot of jobs and we'll accelerate the move towards AI taking the place of humans. That is already being done in a number of places and greatly increasing the cost of labor will not help. So people will end up with zero dollars an hour, not fifteen.

I'm also concerned with teens who want part time or entry level work. At fifteen bucks an hour, most of them won't get it.

Perhaps a better approach is to begin to teach people how to make themselves valuable as an employee and therefore worth a higher wage.

talaniman · Jan 24, 2019, 08:20 AM

Besides brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up to the boss, do you have any examples of being more valuable to your boss?

jlisenbe · Jan 24, 2019, 02:02 PM

Besides brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up to the boss, do you have any examples of being more valuable to your boss?

Sometimes you write things that just amaze me and that is one of them. You've never heard of learning more skills, becoming great at what you do, getting to work consistently on time, staying late if needed, not being a whiner, getting along with your fellow employees, working hard without complaining every five seconds, and producing outstanding work results?? What on earth has happened to our country when "becoming a valuable employee" is interpreted as "brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up". I never cease to be amazed at how differently we see the world, and how glad I am I don't see it the way you so often seem to do.

paraclete · Jan 24, 2019, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's an interesting proposition. I could be talked into considering it, but I have two, huge hesitations. If we go to let's say fifteen dollars an hour, then we will lose a lot of jobs and we'll accelerate the move towards AI taking the place of humans. That is already being done in a number of places and greatly increasing the cost of labor will not help. So people will end up with zero dollars an hour, not fifteen.

I'm also concerned with teens who want part time or entry level work. At fifteen bucks an hour, most of them won't get it.

Perhaps a better approach is to begin to teach people how to make themselves valuable as an employee and therefore worth a higher wage.

It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage

Wondergirl · Jan 24, 2019, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage

Don't ever work in a public library.

jlisenbe · Jan 24, 2019, 03:36 PM

It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage

Not if you're the one whose job goes away.

paraclete · Jan 24, 2019, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Not if you're the one whose job goes away.

It's a fallacy, jobs abolished by not paying fair wages are literally not worth having. You might think it is better than welfare, but if it is not a living wage forcing someone to work two jobs, if they can get it, all it is doing is making small business owners rich at the employees expense. Better to pay them more and have less inefficient workers. It is called productivity..

You do know there is a reason unions were formed and it is because employers would not pay fair wages. I do not subscribe to the idea a manager or owner is work hundreds of times the lowest workers wage. What I say is pay the drones at the top less so income is fairly distributed, reward talent and loyalty. Capitalist ideas are what starts revolutions when the people are oppressed rather than fairness enforced

jlisenbe · Jan 24, 2019, 08:29 PM

I'm going to take a wild guess you don't own your own business. Try opening a fast food outfit and paying 15 dollars an hour. You won't last long. Sad but true. And when you or anyone else gets to decide what management gets paid, then freedom has gone. Better solution is to teach people how to move up the wage scale. Talent gets rewarded already, and loyalty does as well.

paraclete · Jan 25, 2019, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm going to take a wild guess you don't own your own business. Try opening a fast food outfit and paying 15 dollars an hour. You won't last long. Sad but true. And when you or anyone else gets to decide what management gets paid, then freedom has gone. Better solution is to teach people how to move up the wage scale. Talent gets rewarded already, and loyalty does as well.

I'm going to guess you are a theorist. I have owned my own business and managed staff and businesses having responsibility for large businesses. I know that if we treated our employees as minimum wage slaves we couldn't expect their loyalty. Some people can't "move" up the wage scale, not everyone has equal ability. Your capitalist utopia doesn't work for anyone but the elite

jlisenbe · Jan 25, 2019, 05:50 AM

I'm going to guess you are a theorist. I have owned my own business and managed staff and businesses having responsibility for large businesses. I know that if we treated our employees as minimum wage slaves we couldn't expect their loyalty. Some people can't "move" up the wage scale, not everyone has equal ability. Your capitalist utopia doesn't work for anyone but the elite.

And you did all of this because of government mandates, or because it was a sound business decision? No, I am not a theorist. I was a school principal for more than twenty years, so I have experience in managing personnel. Even more so, I had a lot of contact with people who worked minimum wage jobs. You might think it would have been better if they had no job at all, but I don't agree with you. The vast majority of people who start at minimum wage move past that within a couple of years. For that matter, I worked at minimum wage in my younger years on several occasions and at sub-minimum wage once in my teens. There was no oppression involved, and I got past that. It worries me when the wage theorists like you want to start telling everyone else what to do. Leave the system alone. It works.

talaniman · Jan 25, 2019, 01:54 PM

When you speak of a minimum wage in the face of decades long prices going up, you cannot ignore the fact that the minimum wage has not kept pace with those rises, nor account for the difference between a minimum wage, and entry level wages. Let's face it, times have changed and every job should pay a living wage, and it should be against the law for any business to not do otherwise. I always use the Walmart example of paying low wages (And getting tremendous tax breaks from local governments) and workers on some kind of welfare, and we aren't talking teens we are talking adults with families, and must note they have since raised the wages of their workers, and show no signs of going out of business.

They got their tax break and in fact LOCAL, and state minimum wages have CHANGED.

tomder55 · Jan 25, 2019, 02:54 PM

minimum wage is an artificial construct .

talaniman · Jan 25, 2019, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

minimum wage is an artificial construct .

So is capitalism.

paraclete · Jan 25, 2019, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

minimum wage is an artificial construct .

Your constitution is an artificial construct, which makes your country and in fact every country an artificial construct

tomder55 · Jan 25, 2019, 03:29 PM

so when did you become an open border globalist ?

jlisenbe · Jan 25, 2019, 04:21 PM

Let's face it, times have changed and every job should pay a living wage, and it should be against the law for any business to not do otherwise.

1. How have times changed such that every job must pay a "living wage"? Did people not need a "living wage" 40 years ago?

2. How many jobs are you prepared to see go up in smoke in order to make you and others feel better about people doing well? What do you tell to those people who no longer can get a job, or lose their job, in order that the minimum wage might be doubled?

3. What's wrong with someone working 65 hours a week in order to make ends meet? Whoever said life was going to be easy?

paraclete · Jan 25, 2019, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

1. How have times changed such that every job must pay a "living wage"? Did people not need a "living wage" 40 years ago?

2. How many jobs are you prepared to see go up in smoke in order to make you and others feel better about people doing well? What do you tell to those people who no longer can get a job, or lose their job, in order that the minimum wage might be doubled?

3. What's wrong with someone working 65 hours a week in order to make ends meet? Whoever said life was going to be easy?

I seem to remember what happen to the last man I know who espoused that credo.

Industries fail, they can be helped to restructure or the people can be helped to retrain. If they are so inefficient that they can only survive with minimum wage then they deserve to fail, this is the capitalism you love, enslave the population under the guise of doing something for them. I thank God I don't live in such a society