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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #1

    Apr 29, 2022, 05:32 AM
    student loan forgiveness ....
    ....is a big FU to half the country that never attended college ;and to many more who went to college and paid off their loans . Who will pay the loans ? The people just mentioned . It sends a message that the government will bail out the irresponsible .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #2

    Apr 29, 2022, 07:12 AM
    And do so with money it does not have. It's a politician's dream where they can hand out money and benefits without having to increase taxes. Problem is, there is a limit to that, and it's going to be really tough when those, "chickens come home to roost."
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #3

    Apr 29, 2022, 07:32 AM
    the chickens are home . REAL inflation is much higher than the government announces ;and rising and it has nothing to do with covid supply chain disruptions or the price of Putin's war. The 2nd qrt will see economic contraction for the 2nd qtr in a row aka recession. and that is BEFORE the FED puts the real brakes on the economy .

    1979 the debt was approaching $1 trillion 33% gdp . Today we are at least $30 trillion. 124%gdp . Reagan and Volker raised interests rates above the inflation rate to put us on a path to recovery . The Fed needs to do that again once they figure out that slow walking the interest rates higher will not get it done .

    When that happens the abundance of jobs will also cease .
    Then the Clueless clowns will propose more stimulus spending .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #4

    Apr 29, 2022, 08:27 AM
    The great red wave cannot arrive too soon, though it should be noted that repubs frequently don't have the courage to make sound decisions.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,902, Reputation: 5431
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    #5

    Apr 29, 2022, 09:21 AM
    Why are college costs so high?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #6

    Apr 29, 2022, 09:53 AM
    That's a great question. College costs have become ridiculous. When I was going to renew my certification a few years back, I figured I'd just take a college course and that would have done it. I was shocked at the cost of even an online, 3 hour class. I ended up just getting some free SEMI credits.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,902, Reputation: 5431
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    #7

    Apr 29, 2022, 10:07 AM
    One reason costs are so high is that professors who retire may become college/university "vice presidents" and are put on the school's "steering committee". Of course, the college/university pays them well for their "hard work" and "leadership". Thus, tuition costs increase to pay for this wondrous leadership.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #8

    Apr 29, 2022, 10:14 AM
    I have no doubt that is true, but it seems apparent that cost containment is just not high on anyone's radar, and that makes me wonder why competition amongst the hundreds if not thousands of colleges and universities has not kicked in to promote lower fees. I think the business of the feds guaranteeing college loans through Pell grants has caused students to just not worry about costs. It's a negative in that regard.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,902, Reputation: 5431
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    #9

    Apr 29, 2022, 10:55 AM
    And what is a college degree worth nowadays? Too many jobs demand even higher level (master's, Ph.D., Psy.D., etc.) and even more specific degrees. College bound? Get an associate degree at the local community college, or even better, a certificate in a specific trade.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #10

    Apr 29, 2022, 11:41 AM
    Why are college costs so high?
    Costs shouldn't be that high . Many students get moved through the system and graduate unprepared even in their chosen career. Often they are not even good apprentice programs . Almost half drop out or don't complete their degree within an expanded 6 year timeframe.

    Despite that colleges continue to raise tuitions .Federal loan money is handed out like candy . There is no accountability demanded by the government to the institutions that collect these guaranteed loans . These institutions in turn go top heavy in bureaucracy and administrative salaries .



    An audit of the University of California is revealing
    the President had “amassed substantial reserve funds, used misleading budgeting practices, provided its employees with generous salaries and atypical benefits, and failed to satisfactorily justify its spending on systemwide initiatives.”
    The audit took particular aim at the amount of money the system funneled towards administrative expenses. Between fiscal years 2012-13 and 2015-16, the Office of the President’s administrative spending increased by 28%, or $80 million. And 10 executives in the office whose salaries were analyzed by the audit made a total of $3.7 million in FY2014 – $700,000 more than the combined salaries of their highest-paid state employee counterparts.But ballooning administrative costs are not unique to the University of California system. Over the last decades, the higher education world has witnessed a sharp upswing in administrative spending........

    “The interesting thing about the administrative bloat in higher education is, literally, nobody knows who all these people are or what they’re doing,” says Todd Zywicki, a law professor at George Mason University and the author of “The Changing of the Guard: The Political Economy of Administrative Bloat in American Higher Education.” Administrative titles at schools, especially large research institutions, can be confusingly vague: Health Promotion Specialist, Student Success Manager and Senior Coordinator, Student Accountability are all positions currently available on higheredjobs.com
    Bureaucrats And Buildings: The Case For Why College Is So Expensive (forbes.com)

    There is a cost to doubling the ratio of administrators to educators and the students carry the government checks to the colleges in the hope that getting that paper credential to hang on the wall ;their future is secure;

    To be fair to the schools . Government being involved ;as in any business comes with a cost in regulatory compliance as the article notes .

    The consumers (students and their parents ) share in the blame too . Normally when you buy a product you base your decisions on receiving fair and adequate value for the dollar you spend . But when the taxpayer is partially funding the product then the true costs aren't apparent .
    What is subsidized besides direct education ? The college culture is subsidized . The students then spend about half the time that should be devoted to their education on other school sponsored leisure activities .
    The Falling Time Cost of College: Evidence from Half a Century of Time Use Data | The Review of Economics and Statistics | MIT Press


    What is the answer then ? The short answer is for the government to STOP guaranteeing these loans . Get the government out of the college loans business altogether . Private lenders would demand more accountability . Colleges would be forced to be more responsible ;to reign in costs ,and to create more affordable choices . Colleges could even privately make an agreement with the students to finance the loan to be paid back based on the percentage of the student's income after graduation. Monthly loan payments are lower when their income is lower at the beginning of their career . Then as their salaries increase ,the loan gets paid back quicker . This is already happening at some institutions

    Guaranteed to make it worse is for government to do debt forgiveness with no one being held responsible .
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,902, Reputation: 5431
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    #11

    Apr 29, 2022, 11:55 AM
    You nailed it, tomder!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #12

    Apr 29, 2022, 12:48 PM
    What is the answer then ? The short answer is for the government to STOP guaranteeing these loans . Get the government out of the college loans business altogether . Private lenders would demand more accountability . Colleges would be forced to be more responsible ;to reign in costs ,and to create more affordable choices.
    I would agree with that. It would also be good for colleges to begin to look more closely at the idea that all areas of study should end up with 120 or so hours for a bachelor's degree. I would argue that a well-designed, three year program for elementary and middle school teachers could have them out and ready for a couple of years of supervised teaching with no problem. But the classes would have to be taught much better than they are now.

    In other words, innovation and getting rid of outdated thinking would work wonders.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,509, Reputation: 1860
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    #13

    Apr 29, 2022, 01:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Why are college costs so high?
    not only that, but the interest rates are a joke....
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #14

    Aug 24, 2022, 03:42 AM
    So I did not go to college . I opted to join the work force . I honed my trade in the shop . I saw an opportunity .I took out a loan for $10,000 + so I could purchase tools and put a down payment on a truck so I could set out on my own. I work 60 hrs a week and am barely getting by.

    Now I see that Clueless is planning on forgiving $10,000 of student loans for wastrels who took a major in basket weaving while living a 4 year high on campus . They then went out and found a clerk job that has nothing to do with their major . They are dissatisfied with their work so they are in the process of a Quite Quit .They go through the motions like some Dilbert cartoon character logging onto TikTok watching funny cat videos .

    They have a student loan that Clueless plans to pay for out of my taxes . Most of the Dems are on board with this idea and many of them want an even bigger debt forgiveness for student loans .

    And here I thought the Dems were about fairness.

    (The narrative was fictional .I went to college and worked to pay for my school .I took out a small loan in my last 2 years and paid it off sooner than it was due. Will I ger a retroactive refund ? )
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #15

    Aug 24, 2022, 03:59 AM
    They have a student loan that Clueless plans to pay for out of my taxes .
    I wish that was the case, but it's much worse in this brave new world of make-believe money.
    Most of the Dems are on board with this idea and many of them want an even bigger debt forgiveness for student loans .
    It will have several bad consequences, one of which will be to encourage young people to take on college debt in the confident hope that the liberal dems will want to buy their votes again some day and "forgive" their loans. It will also encourage them to engage in useless and even counter-productive majors such as women's studies, black history, psychology, gender studies, and so forth. And it will continue to fuel the explosive growth of college expenses.

    The great question will concern whether or not the American people are duped by this obvious political theatre.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #16

    Aug 24, 2022, 04:32 AM
    Even worse . The loan forgiveness applies to anyone making less than $125,000 a year . The cost in monopoly money ? A minimum of $300 billion and perhaps up to $980 billion . The Penn Wharton Budget Model estimates that 69% and 73% of any debt forgiven would accrue to households that rank in the top 60% of the US’s income distribution.

    Student Loan Relief Seen Costing Billions and Favoring Top Earners (yahoo.com)

    There is also talk of debt postponement and even higher amounts of forgiveness for people who took Pell grants .

    Don't worry about how to pay for it . Increased audits of the fictional small business guy I referenced should take care of it ....maybe a bodega owner or 2 . And if that doesn't do it than the increase in inflation that this will bring will surely pay for it .


    To your point ; Former Treasury Sec Larry Summers ;and also former President of Harvard said :

    Student loan debt relief is spending that raises demand and increases inflation,” Summers added. “It consumes resources that could be better used helping those who did not, for whatever reason, have the chance to attend college. It will also tend to be inflationary by raising tuitions.”

    Larry Summers: Student debt forgiveness will make inflation worse (nypost.com)
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,902, Reputation: 5431
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    #17

    Aug 24, 2022, 07:15 AM
    Why are college costs so high in the first place? (To give hefty salaries to the retired profs who have been hired by the college as do-nothing veeps?)
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,480, Reputation: 156
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    #18

    Aug 24, 2022, 07:55 AM
    That's really a great question. Another one that should be asked is why are med costs accelerating much faster than other costs. I thought this at least provided part of the answer to the college question.

    Student loan debt relief is spending that raises demand and increases inflation,” Summers added. “It consumes resources that could be better used helping those who did not, for whatever reason, have the chance to attend college. It will also tend to be inflationary by raising tuitions.”
    On a bit of a side note, I can renew my teaching certification by taking two college courses every two years, so I thought I would just do that the year after I retired. I was ASTONISHED at what was being asked for a three hour course in our local comm. college.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,902, Reputation: 5431
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    #19

    Aug 24, 2022, 08:53 AM
    And I've said in other threads, beginning in middle school, encourage vocational guidance. One doesn't need a college degree to be successful. We need plumbers and electricians and auto mechanics and network/cable installers and library clerks/pages and other hands-on workers.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #20

    Aug 24, 2022, 09:17 AM
    Why are college costs so high in the first place?
    One reason and one only ...government guaranteed loans distort the market

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