[smoothy]

If FOUR POLICE VETERANS, well trained and armed, cannot stop a "snowflake punk," then what? Maybe if assault weapons (intended to kill enemies in WAR) weren't available and if all the trails to the "snowflake punk" hadn't been shut down by authorities....

They were cowards... who should be embarrassed to wear the uniform, carry the badge... and call themselves men.

[Wondergirl]

They were cowards... who should be embarrassed to wear the uniform, carry the badge... and call themselves men.

And you want ordinary teachers to pack heat???? In all the chaos, students running and screaming -- how many students will die in the crossfire? And then the police show up and decide to shoot which person with a gun? And then, the next morning the school bell rings. Back to normal.

[tomder55]

As stated already I am leaning against the idea.However I posted this to demonstrate that there are already school districts where it is happening . Where is the examples of teachers firing wildly in the chaos. Maybe it is the deterrence alone that is doing the job. Maybe if a shooter sees this ,he moves on to softer targets .

maybe to places like this

[talaniman]

Thank God we haven't had any incidents in those schools that have taken those extra precautions of training and arming their teachers. A guy with an AR-15 though, out guns a few people with handguns by a lot, and no doubt the Florida shooter knew of the deputies with guns at a school he had attended. He also had the element of surprise on his side giving him the distinct tactical advantage, despite all the drills and precautions of the school. Not defending the 4 deputies at all, but this kid was well prepared, knew his targets and terrain, and had an escape plan that worked.

I think metal detectors, and cameras, costly as they may be to local budgets, are in order as well to at least mitigate that surprise and unknown because lets face it knowing where a shooter is in real time is half the battle.

This fellow has been on the radar since he was 9 years old and nothing was done. That is what lead to this chain of events that has exposed the inadequacy of a system that has broken our false sense of security. The problem is inaction, a failure to properly address the FIRST red flag, and ignoring the rest that have been waving for a long time.

That seems to be a recurring theme with most of these shooters, they have a plan they execute perfectly, and the plan to prevent them from creating mayhem, death, and injury has plenty of holes in it. Let's start with the notion of how to stop a bad guy with a gun, and dismiss the ludicrous solution of good guys with guns. I feel the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is DON'T give him a gun.

That would require some EXTREME VETTING wouldn't it?

[smoothy]

And you want ordinary teachers to pack heat???? In all the chaos, students running and screaming -- how many students will die in the crossfire? And then the police show up and decide to shoot which person with a gun? And then, the next morning the school bell rings. Back to normal.

Why not.. a lot of teachers already own guns and know how to use them, some of them depending on how much the state respects the constitution, already have CC permits and probably already do carry outside of work.

Nobody is going to force the peaceniks into defending themselves or their kids... but they need to get out of the way of those who are willing to defend themselves and their kids.

Its already abundently clear... the loser snowflakes aren't to going to stop and think, well this one isn't armed so I'll let them live... they shoot them anyway.

At least they are sitting there waiting to be shot and leaving the kids open as well. At least they have a fighting chance. That's a LOT more than they have now. Particularly in cases like that when you pay cowards to pretend to play cop, then when the chips are down... they hide and save their own skins. Just a COUPLE teachers with a CC in that case would have saved a lot of lives.

I find it hard to believe that even MOST teachers today was spineless cowards afraid to defend themselves OR their kids.

When I was in school 80-90% is not more, of my teachers were fully capable of putting up a very respectable fight (including the women).. and would not have run. And I did NOT grow up in the inner city.

And I did see see two of them take down MUCH bigger kids, and heard of other cases that I wasn't there to see myself.

[smoothy]

Thank God we haven't had any incidents in those schools that have taken those extra precautions of training and arming their teachers. A guy with an AR-15 though, out guns a few people with handguns by a lot, and no doubt the Florida shooter knew of the deputies with guns at a school he had attended. He also had the element of surprise on his side giving him the distinct tactical advantage, despite all the drills and precautions of the school. Not defending the 4 deputies at all, but this kid was well prepared, knew his targets and terrain, and had an escape plan that worked.

I think metal detectors, and cameras, costly as they may be to local budgets, are in order as well to at least mitigate that surprise and unknown because lets face it knowing where a shooter is in real time is half the battle.

This fellow has been on the radar since he was 9 years old and nothing was done. That is what lead to this chain of events that has exposed the inadequacy of a system that has broken our false sense of security. The problem is inaction, a failure to properly address the FIRST red flag, and ignoring the rest that have been waving for a long time.

That seems to be a recurring theme with most of these shooters, they have a plan they execute perfectly, and the plan to prevent them from creating mayhem, death, and injury has plenty of holes in it. Let's start with the notion of how to stop a bad guy with a gun, and dismiss the ludicrous solution of good guys with guns. I feel the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is DON'T give him a gun.

That would require some EXTREME VETTING wouldn't it?

Metal Detectors are good... prevention is good. Being outgunned? I don't buy that so much because we aren't talking wide open space. And inside a school you aren't talking ANY long distance shots where the rifle has an advantage... in this sort of situation a pistol holds an advantage. You aren't talking about a TEAM of criminals, you are talking only one... and they don't have eyes in the back of their head.

The amount of training to be proficient with using a handgun isn't that significant. You can teach a fairly young teen to do it, we aren't talking training in Urban guerrilla warfare squad tactics. We are talking knowing how to shoot and hit a target at most 30 feet away. And know how to clean and maintain your weapon of choice.

Plus its voluntary, and those who are unwilling to defend themselves don't have to. But they should get out of the way of those who are.

[tomder55]

any other pie in the sky thoughts ?

I gave the stats in Chi-town and similar stats can be found in other cities like Baltimore .This year so far 30 shooting deaths. 2017 ...342 total . Almost all of them done by shooters who did not legally purchase the gun ;mostly handguns ;not ARs . In fact ARs account for about 2 % of gun deaths and less than 1% of gun injuries .

[paraclete]

When it comes down to it you cannot avoid the issue that the problem is the gun, there are just too many and as a result, you have these incidents. When there was a ban on assault weapons the number of these incidents declined, when the ban was lifted the incidence rose again. The statistics don't lie. The overall problem of gun deaths is a different problem. In an urban environment there is no reason to posses a long rifle so if people need these weapons for self defence, is this what they are used for?

[talaniman]

The problem is it's too easy to get a hand gun, or any weapon legally as in this case, from systematic failures, and ILLEGALLY, a bigger problem. You can ban anything in a big city, but criminals just move outside the city limits, and get whatever they want.

Why are there so many illegal guns in Chicago? Easy answer just look at a map. 20 bucks gets you gas money and a motivation to drive a few miles in ANY direction, and buy me a gun for my illegal activities. Straw man purchases are common EVERYWHERE where laws are lax, and guns available. As I have said before Florida is NOTORIOUS for easy to get guns. Always has been and most New York criminals know that too. Background checks don't catch straw purchasers. Gun shows are also a BIG problem and Florida (And my home Texas) are BIG on their gun shows. It's big money.

I agree again Smoothy, those 4(?) deputies could have done much more than wait outside, to take away his tactical advantage his rifle gives him, but again until they find the sucker they have no such advantage and the fact remains he did his damage and dropped everything that identified him as a shooter and ran out with a crowd. That obviously was HIS plan.

Not only would those good guys with guns have to act quickly, but be on the spot, and that's the real unknown here. Even you have to admit this nut job was smart enough to know how to use the flaws and loopholes to his advantage and didn't stick around hunkered down to be confronted. This dude got the drop on EVERYBODY! And all bad guys have the advantage of knowing the set up, and NOT worried about obeying the rules or being afraid of a retired old ex-cop.

So why are we having problems with these mass shooters and other nations do not?

[tomder55]

good luck trying to ban rifles and restricting the sale of guns nationwide . If you made ALL guns illegal the bad guys would still get them as easily as pot smokers get pot . It will be as easy as keeping illegal aliens out of the country . Focus of school safety . Focus on getting community policing back on the streets . (one thing Bubba got right)

[talaniman]

Good luck trying to ban rifles and restricting the sale of guns nationwide .

Just ASSAULT rifles, and they have been banned before. I know lots of opposition to that for now, as well as common sense restrictions nationwide. I think I would rather deal with the fallout rather than the fatalities though to be quite honest. LOL, there is hell to pay either way!

If you made ALL guns illegal the bad guys would still get them as easily as pot smokers get pot . It will be as easy as keeping illegal aliens out of the country .

I will leave illegal aliens out for the moment as that's another issue, but if you remember I am a second amendments rights advocate and don't want ALL guns to be illegal but I guess my common sense gun control position hides that fact. Why do we forget the WELL REGULATED MILITIA part of our constitution.

Focus of school safety . Focus on getting community policing back on the streets . (one thing Bubba got right)

Sounds like a GREAT plan to me, count me in! I would just change school safety to PUBLIC safety, which of course would include schools, as well as churches, movie houses, and restaurants, parks, and malls. EVERYWHERE people and families conjugate.

Drive-by shootings are especially dangerous, and annoying. Yeah I am from the Chicagoland area originally!

[cdad]

Im going to throw my 2 cents worth out there and Im going to say I dont want any school teacher nor administrator carrying a deadly weapon on school grounds period.

I think there are alternatives that can do virtually the same thing without resorting to projectiles that can go through walls and hit the unintended. I think that a system of semiautomatic shotguns loaded with bean bag shells and placed in classrooms and in lounges and teacher only accessed areas would solve the probem. It gives teachers a defensive weapon and can stop a shooter in his / her tracks without haveing to worry about a bullet going astray. I want to see our children protected but I also realize that in active situations and with tight quarters you never know. So something like a bean bag load may knock a child out they have a much higher survival rate. Also we have many cases of suicide by cop. I dont want our schools to become a breeding ground for any such actions.

Here are some links if you dont know what Im talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j5x7MTFAEQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeRKm9ZsqtU

[talaniman]

Non lethal ammo, I like the idea, but this is what we are up against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qFSzuUm9-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw2IV2XLFnQ

Carnage is a good word for what loony shooters do when they hunt humans.

[paraclete]

Why do we forget the WELL REGULATED MILITIA part of our constitution.

You know Tal all of that phrase is forgotten and the focus is on the word abridged. I believe statements should be taken as a whole to gauge intent not picked apart, so this means that the expectation is that there be regulation, there be discipline and that action with guns is not individual but with combined purpose against a common enemy

[talaniman]

And for protection against bears and gators and Bigfoot.

[tomder55]

'The militia is the whole of the people.' [George Mason Founder who wrote the 2nd Amendment]

Mason combined, a portion of the Massachusetts’ Declaration of Rights stating that the people have a right “to keep and to bear arms” with Article 13 from Virginia’s Declaration of Rights concerning a well-regulated militia as the defense against a standing army. The idea that the militia is some government run organization that serves the government is preposterous .

But since you are parsing language what does

“shall not be infringed” mean ?

Just ASSAULT rifles, and they have been banned before

A law that cannot be shown to work, and which is only enforced on the law-abiding is an egregious infringement of freedom. What is an assault rifle ? Semi-automatic ? Most hunters prefer semi-automatic rifles like Remington R-15 or.750 Woodsmaster .The difference is that they look like hunter's guns, Do you want to ban them or only the semi-automatics that look like military rifles ?

[talaniman]

The government IS the people, or should be, and the notion of bearing arms against OUR army is what's absurd, even though I have seen cops, and government regulated militias do some lowdown stuff, and screw things up in lousy fashion. We both have, but if we are to survive as a free nation, we cannot just interpret the rules in different ways to fit peoples fears or prejudices. Not when we have the right to change the law, and a process to accommodate the changes in a LAWFUL orderly way. That does not include small groups declaring themselves a militia, and being outside, or above that law. Indeed they are as subject to the laws as anyone, and should be treated as such when they break it. That's what due process is about. We argue in court, not in the backwoods, or behind barricades. That's the law too!

That's what abridged means you have the right to bear arms WITHIN the LAW. Not outside of it, or above it, or beside it. Anyone with a problem with it should take it to court. If you want to be a militia then abide by the rules! Bad things happen when you do not! That's the law.

[smoothy]

The problem is it's too easy to get a hand gun, or any weapon legally as in this case, from systematic failures, and ILLEGALLY, a bigger problem. You can ban anything in a big city, but criminals just move outside the city limits, and get whatever they want.

Why are there so many illegal guns in Chicago? Easy answer just look at a map. 20 bucks gets you gas money and a motivation to drive a few miles in ANY direction, and buy me a gun for my illegal activities. Straw man purchases are common EVERYWHERE where laws are lax, and guns available. As I have said before Florida is NOTORIOUS for easy to get guns. Always has been and most New York criminals know that too. Background checks don't catch straw purchasers. Gun shows are also a BIG problem and Florida (And my home Texas) are BIG on their gun shows. It's big money.

I agree again Smoothy, those 4(?) deputies could have done much more than wait outside, to take away his tactical advantage his rifle gives him, but again until they find the sucker they have no such advantage and the fact remains he did his damage and dropped everything that identified him as a shooter and ran out with a crowd. That obviously was HIS plan.

Not only would those good guys with guns have to act quickly, but be on the spot, and that's the real unknown here. Even you have to admit this nut job was smart enough to know how to use the flaws and loopholes to his advantage and didn't stick around hunkered down to be confronted. This dude got the drop on EVERYBODY! And all bad guys have the advantage of knowing the set up, and NOT worried about obeying the rules or being afraid of a retired old ex-cop.

So why are we having problems with these mass shooters and other nations do not?

Because mentally disturbed Tide pod eaters are raised without discipline or much of an education (less than 1% would pass a college entrance exam outside the USA), and expect participation trophies for anything they attempt. Other places don't allow kids to grow up like that. They expect work, respect and accountability. Something the snowflake generation never learned having grown up being told they are special and entitled to everything while doing nothing in return.

[tomder55]

it is infringed not abridged . INFRINGE as in ,act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on. 'Shall not infringe' means shall not act so as to limit or undermine .


translation .....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be limited or undermined .

[talaniman]

So it's legal to buy a tank, bazooka, or a heat seeking shoulder launched missile?