[smoothy]

Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?

And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

Actually I did, several, not lots... they lived in Madison... long story but the one I knew best is doing a life sentence right now in the Federal prison, made the national news. And another guy upstate.. but lost contact with him 2 years ago.

[tomder55]

I thought this was interesting:
http://cdn.other98.com/wp-content/up...lker-final.jpg

I'll take your Koch brothers and raise George Soros .

[tomder55]

Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?

And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

Got a simple solution the rank and file should love. To offset the small concession ,let them contribute their union dues into the retirement health plans .

To say that what goes into their pensions and medical insurance is "deferred income " is simply not true and to say that by contributing to their benefits would be the equivalent of a pay cut is a bogus argument. I have deferred income and it shows up on my tax statement . By that rationale every worker in the country who contributes to their benefits are taking wage cuts. If my boss provides coffee for free and then later decides to cut out the free coffee this article suggests I'm taking a pay cut.

It's time the pubic service workers joined the rest of working America instead of picking their pockets . Yes I said it. The politicians who negotiate their deals have their campaigns financed by the unions they negotiate with. Their sweetheart contracts are payback that the States can no longer afford.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. All you need to do is look at Greece to know where this heads if not stopped now.

[excon]

Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.

Hello Synn:

Thanks for that research... I didn't know that stuff. I don't think even the Democrats knew it, or they wouldn't have given up so quick...

The ONE good thing about the Democrats escape is, it's given us pause... We really don't make very good law when we're under the gun.

excon

PS> I'm eating American Cheese in solidarity with you...

[smoothy]

We really don't make very good law when we're under the gun.

excon

Like Obamacare that was done behind closed doors without any republican input... RIGHT?

[excon]

The politicians who negotiate their deals have their campaigns financed by the unions they negotiate with. Their sweetheart contracts are payback that the States can no longer afford.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

Hello again, tom:

It would be believable if EVERY politician the union negotiated with over the last 75 years were Democrats... But, that just ain't so.

excon

[Synnen]

Oh please. I work in education, in a proprietary school.

I WISH I got the benefits that state workers get, or the salary that my colleagues in private schools get. And by benefits, I mean vacation time, overtime, and a retirement plan.

Admit it, you wish you had those things too.

BUT--my point is not that WI state workers (which do include tenured professors that sit on their butts and pick their noses and contribute NOTHING---but ALSO include school cafeteria workers, bus drivers, and librarians---many of whom do not get the benefits and pensions you're so worried about, but still belong to the union) are sopping up extra taxes---because it doesn't MATTER if they are. Wisconsinites are willing to PAY extra taxes to keep their education system from being like Texas or Tennessee.

So... since the citizens of WI are willing to pay taxes to keep their teachers, who the heck are YOU to tell them they can't?

What they're OBJECTING to is the loss of collective bargaining. NOT the money--the bargaining. They've ALREADY conceded pay cuts and benefits cuts. They just don't want to lose their right to be a UNION.

And frankly--if the state workers are pickpockets, then the big businesses in WI are crime lords directing thugs to mug everyone. Where was more money lost--pensions or tax cuts for the wealthy and big businesses? I am betting the those tax cuts lost a LOT more money than state workers did.

[tomder55]

Does it matter which party ? However Democrats until last year held control of Wisconsin politics for decades.

[speechlesstx]

Robert Barro says collective bargaining should be a violation of antitrust laws. I agree.

How ironic that Wisconsin has become ground zero for the battle between taxpayers and public- employee labor unions. Wisconsin was the first state to allow collective bargaining for government workers (in 1959), following a tradition where it was the first to introduce a personal income tax (in 1911, before the introduction of the current form of individual income tax in 1913 by the federal government).

Labor unions like to portray collective bargaining as a basic civil liberty, akin to the freedoms of speech, press, assembly and religion. For a teachers union, collective bargaining means that suppliers of teacher services to all public school systems in a state—or even across states—can collude with regard to acceptable wages, benefits and working conditions. An analogy for business would be for all providers of airline transportation to assemble to fix ticket prices, capacity and so on. From this perspective, collective bargaining on a broad scale is more similar to an antitrust violation than to a civil liberty.

In fact, labor unions were subject to U.S. antitrust laws in the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, which was first applied in 1894 to the American Railway Union. However, organized labor managed to obtain exemption from federal antitrust laws in subsequent legislation, notably the Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914 and the National Labor Relations Act of 1935.

Remarkably, labor unions are not only immune from antitrust laws but can also negotiate a "union shop," which requires nonunion employees to join the union or pay nearly equivalent dues. Somehow, despite many attempts, organized labor has lacked the political power to repeal the key portion of the 1947 Taft Hartley Act that allowed states to pass right-to-work laws, which now prohibit the union shop in 22 states. From the standpoint of civil liberties, the individual right to work—without being forced to join a union or pay dues—has a much better claim than collective bargaining. (Not to mention that "right to work" has a much more pleasant, liberal sound than "collective bargaining.") The push for right-to-work laws, which haven't been enacted anywhere but Oklahoma over the last 20 years, seems about to take off.

[tomder55]

Synn ,the incentives to keep businesses in Wisconsin have not kicked in. The budget shortfall has nothing to do with tax cuts to over taxed businesses.

I WISH I got the benefits that state workers get, or the salary that my colleagues in private schools get. And by benefits, I mean vacation time, overtime, and a retirement plan.

I'm sure you and I wish it . What I don't like is that you as a teacher in the private sector are getting less and still are required to chip in with your tax dollars to pay for their gold plated benefits.

[Synnen]

The business incentives in WI suck, big-time. It's one of the worst states in the country for businesses.

But what's the point of business incentives that aren't as good as those just over the border into IL, MN or MI?

And I'm not in WI--and don't necessarily agree with unions. What I DO agree with, though, is the right for the voters to determine the laws in their state. The voters were not given a choice on this--it was rammed through without any compromises.

And I wish I were a teacher--I'd get paid more. I'm an administrator, sadly, and no one appreciates us. ESPECIALLY in the private sector.

People are against tuition increases, and against state subsidies for teachers and administrators---but still want the best education possible. The average welfare recipient gets more in benefits (an average of $36k per year) than most teachers do.

So please--don't tell me they have gold-plated benefits. They work long hours, unthanked, for less than $35k a year most of the time. And are still expected to be nice to the snotty, entitled kids that parents who don't want to pay taxes for teacher salaries send to their classroom with every form of sickness and mental health problems.

I know! Let's pay teachers to BABYSIT instead. Screw teaching--that costs too much. Let's just hire them to be daycare workers. Looking into daycare now, it's about $40 a day, per kid. Average classroom of 30 kids equals $1200 a day for teachers---and all they have to do is WATCH them instead of teaching them.

Please. Let's give educators what they're worth to us as a society and stop *****ing about the fact that they get good benefits for doing it.

[excon]

Robert Barro says collective bargaining should be a violation of antitrust laws. I agree.

Hello again, Steve:

You are to be commended for admitting this is about union busting, and NOT balancing a budget.. Why won't your fellow right wingers admit it? Are they ashamed?

excon

[tomder55]

Wow Synn.. quite a rant. I agree that good teachers are under appreciated . Perhaps if there were more incentives for good teaching and less incentive to make it to tenure then there would be more of the good teachers you describe.

Still in Wisconsin ,the teachers per capita average salary before benefits is around $51,000 . Consider that's for a 180 day work year and it raises to around $68,000, before their benefits, pensions, and job security are factored in .

The taxpayers who are being asked to support their contracts earn on average $50,000.The ones with health care and pensions/401k etc are contributing heavily into their plans... AND paying taxes for the teachers deal.
It's just not right for the people of Wisconsin to have to shell out for the benefits of workers who earn 36% more than they do.

[excon]

The taxpayers who are being asked to support their contracts earn on average $50,000.The ones with health care and pensions/401k etc are contributing heavily into their plans ....AND paying taxes for the teachers deal. It's just not right for the people of Wisconsin to have to shell out for the benefits of workers who earn 36% more than they do.

Hello again, tom:

Couple things.

You say the taxpayers are being "ASKED to support.....", whereas the proper language is that, through their elected representatives, the taxpayers AGREED to the present contract. The unions are not asking for anything OTHER that what was already agreed to. The teachers didn't STEAL anything, and they're not asking for anything new.

Nonetheless, you may be right about their contracts. But, the place to rectify that is where the problem occurred in the first place - at the bargaining table. You guys want to pick up your chips and go home, but busting the union ain't going to happen. I think the Republicans are doing it just to get even for Obamacare, anyway.

excon

[smoothy]

Obamacare wasn't legally passed... or constitutional.

After all... the GM Blue collar retirees got the royal shaft... but not the white collar retirees. THAT was in contracts too, and paid for over decades of labor.

And they have Obama to thank for that rectal reaming.

Why should the Wisconsin Civil servants be above that.

[Synnen]

Here's the thing you are missing:

The REASON Wisconsin workers should not be subjected to all of this is because the TAXPAYERS in WISCONSIN---you know, the ones paying for this?--are saying that they WANT to pay their educators that much. The VOTERS and the PROTESTORS are saying they WILL pay for this.

They are WILLING to pay for gold-plated union workers to be educators in their state. They are NOT willing to pay for big businesses to get tax cuts.

Did things change in this country when I wasn't looking, and taxpayers and voters stopped being able to determine whether they're willing to pay for it?

This has NOTHING to do with the state budget. Everything I've been shown on this points to UNION BUSTING, not to SAVING MONEY or CREATING JOBS.

Walker's an idiot. He's lost his job over this, because he won't be re-elected.

This whole thing comes down to the fact that people in Wisconsin are WILLING to pay their teachers that much so that they don't have an education system that looks like Arizona's or Tennessee's education system---you know, in the top 10 instead of the bottom 10.

So... the PROBLEM is that they're willing to pay for the teachers to get what they want and need (and remember--the union already agreed to pay cuts and benefits cuts--they just don't want to give up collective bargaining), and Walker is trying to tell them that they HAVE to cut the budget in THIS ONE PLACE, with NO other options, including that tax cut to businesses.

So what it comes down to is this: Walker is trying to bust a union. There's no real shortage of funds in Wisconsin at this time. People are ticked off that if there ARE real shortages, then why the hell are we giving tax cuts to businesses that can AFFORD to pay taxes?

[tomder55]

I don't think so . Walker put this on the table during the elections and surprise... he's doing what he said he would.
Got news for all. Almost every state in the union is facing similar budgets .
The President tried to buy them time with the bucket list transfer of Federal money to the states ;but that gravy train is over. Unlike the idiots running the Federal Government ,the States can't print currency to pay for bloated budgetting .They are all mandated to balance the budget.

The public service obligations of the states are budget busters. These are obligations that they can't tax their way out of it. People and businesses are mobile . Many people have already picked up and left here due to overtaxation. Yet it is estimated that an 18 percent tax hike would be needed to fund it.

In NJ the pension shortfall was $45.8 billion as of June 30, 2009, or more than $5,200 for every person in the state.

Nationwide State and local government workers get paid an average of $25.30 an hour, which is 33% higher than the private sector’s $19, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. Throw in pensions and other benefits and the gap widens to 42%.
So please spare me the boo hoo over the state workers plight.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

You are to be commended for admitting this is about union busting, and NOT balancing a budget.. Why won't your fellow right wingers admit it?? Are they ashamed?

Again, we're talking two different things, public employee unions and private sector unions. I don't believe public employees need a union, I don't like the fact that they can negotiate with my tax dollars, I should be able to tell THEM what they're to be paid and what their benefits are and if they suck at their jobs - teachers included - they need to FIRED.

[excon]

I don't believe public employees need a union, I don't like the fact that they can negotiate with my tax dollars,

Hello again, Steve:

Every time I hear this, I wrinkle up my nose and say, what?? Maybe I'm dense, but if you drive a Ford, they negotiate with their workers with YOUR dollars... If you use Exxon gas, they negotiate with their workers with YOUR dollars... Whenever you use a product made by union labor, they're using YOUR dollars to negotiate with their workers... If you use a street, they negotiate with their workers with YOUR dollars... If your trash is picked up, they use YOUR dollars to negotiate with their workers...

You SAY the unions representing PRIVATE industry are waaaaay cool... But, the unions representing your school crossing guard IS a BANE to the taxpayer and ought to be stamped out...

But, I see no difference... No difference at all. Yes, the city collects taxes to pay for the streets you use to negotiate with unions, and private industry collects income from sales to negotiate with the unions... But, whether it's taxes or income from sales, they're the SAME. They DO the same thing. How can you think one is great, and the other is not??

If you would REALLY tell the truth, once you kill the public service unions, you're going to go after the rest, aren't you?

excon

[speechlesstx]

Why do I bother, you answer for me. OK, so if these unions are sooo good, why don't they give a damn about the children in these sorry schools? Why are good teachers being fired an bad teachers being kept? Why aren't teachers in Wisconsin teaching? Time for a flashback...



The 83k a year teacher is complaining she's not being compensated for her education or experience, but "teachers do it because they love it." If that's so, they'd be teaching their students instead of getting fraudulent doctor's notes so they can skip school... to hell with the children.