[NeedKarma]

Try as hard as you like, NK, you can't run away from what the bill says.

But you are! You don't quote the text that supports your argument, you had your personal interpretation.

[ETWolverine]

Hello NK;

I had a conversation with my dinning room table last night.... It said Elliot was right...

excon

That would mean your dining room table has more brains than you do.

[tomder55]

As I have previously posted;H.R. 1 (the Stimulus Bill ) contains $1.1 billion to fund the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. Zeke Dr Death Emanuel in on the council .

Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research Membership


Obama's Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein will play a role in deciding the government's role in controlling medical care. He says that human life should be measured in "quality-adjusted life years" .

www.aei-brookings.org/admin/authorpdfs/redirect-safely.php?

As you see .The death panel has already been established and will be managed by people who have definite opinions on who should live and die.

[NeedKarma]

Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research Membership

Comparative effectiveness research provides information on the relative strengths and weakness of various medical interventions. Such research will give clinicians and patients valid information to make decisions that will improve the performance of the U.S. health care system.
...
The Council will not recommend clinical guidelines for payment, coverage or treatment.

Yea, that sounds like a crazy death panel!

[ETWolverine]

But you are! You don't quote the text that supports your argument, you had your personal interpretation.

Not my personal interpretations... all I did was quote the text of the bill. It says what it says... no way around that...

But if you want personal interpretations, you can look to the people who created the bills... people like Zeke Emanuel, Obama, Carol Shea-Porter. They make it very clear what THEIR interpretations and their intent with these bills are.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

Yea, that sounds like a crazy death panel!

When the stated purpose of the panel is to determine how much "effective" life you've left and base your level of care on that, yeah, it's a death panel. They decide what you get and if you're too old you don't get it. That is the very definition of a death panel... no matter what fancy name they give it.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

Not my personal interpretations... all I did was quote the text of the bill. It says what it says... no way around that...

At no point in your post did you quote the text of the bill.

[NeedKarma]

When the stated purpose of the panel is to determine how much "effective" life you've left and base your level of care on that, yeah, its a death panel. They decide what you get and if you're too old you don't get it.

It says none of that on that website. None.

[excon]

When the stated purpose of the panel is to determine how much "effective" life you've left and base your level of care on that, yeah, its a death panel.

Hello again:

Yeah, my dinning room table read it and told me the same thing.

Look. There's no reasoning, here. The words say one thing... The right wingers say the words mean something else...

Is it because they can't read?? Is it because their ideology BLINDS them from the words? Is it because they DON'T believe what their lying eyes tell them, but they DO believe Rush Limprod? Or, could it be that they're willing to defeat ANYTHING Obama wants, and they're willing to lie about it to get their way. Or maybe they're dinning room tables.

It's got to be ONE of the above.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Well if you guys don't like that Obamacare is going down in flames then join MoveOn's virtual vigil.

[excon]

Well if you guys don't like that Obamacare is going down in flames then join MoveOn's virtual vigil.

Hello again, Steve:

Oh, it's going down... The Dems, who have ALL three branches of government, and one of the largest majority's in congress in history, have defeated themselves.

excon

[tomder55]

Yea, that sounds like a crazy death panel!

Yes that text is how it is sold to the public . But , the real purpose is to establish official criteria for denying care to less favored patients based on their sick formula about a patient's worth. . Like I said ;read the words of the advocates that the President has as his top advisors on this . They make no bones they would ration critical care to patients based on their worth... just like the English system I linked to earlier.

[NeedKarma]

[excon]

yes that text is how it is sold to the public . But , the real purpose is to establish official criteria for denying care to less favored patients based on their sick formula about a patient's worth.

Hello again, tom:

So, if I would have said that the text of the Patriot Act said ONE thing, but the REAL purpose of it was to destroy the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments to the Constitution, you'da told me to put on my tin hat...

At least you ADMIT the words don't say what the Wolverine says they do... You're concern is the leftist, socialist, communist plot that's underway for a government take over of everything, and knocking off granny too... I got it.

excon

[tomder55]

I read the text and the writing of the people who authored it. But that stuff should be ignored evidenty. Sort of like reading the Constitution without reading the Federalist papers if you ask me. But intent it would seem to me would be important when deciding if you support legislation .

[inthebox]

Political Evidence: Obama's Ration Man: Ezekiel Emanuel

In Dr. Emanuel's writings, he overtly advocates the rationing of healthcare based on age. In January 2009, just one month prior to taking his new position at the White House, Dr. Emanuel co-wrote an article entitled, “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions”, in the British medical journal The Lancet. In this article he advocates a particular healthcare allocation system which he calls the “complete lives system.” He declared in The Lancet article that in healthcare, “scarcity is the mother of allocation." He explains, “This system (complete lives system) incorporates five principles: youngest-first, prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value. As such, it prioritizes younger people who have not yet lived a complete life and will be unlikely to do so without aid.”

Is this the influence that Obama's chief of staff's brother has?


Say you are 65 and have been paying into Medicare for close to 40 years, when you get sick and expect the system that you have been paying into for 40 years to help you in your time of need, some government panel made a decision that your life is "not worth as much" as some 20 year old who has barely paid anything into the Medicare PONZI SYSTEM.

With the baby boomers getting to this age, and less workers to pay into this PONZI SYSTEM, RATIONING IS GOING TO HAPPEN.







G&P

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

From 1233 5(b):

The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions.

What do the words "limit some or all specified interventions" mean to you? To me it means "limit some or all specified interventions". To you, it must mean something OTHER than what it says.

Which of those words are NOT in the bill?

Why do you insist on saying that the bill DOESN'T REALLY say that when it clearly does.

The bill LIMITS TREATMENT. It does so through a panel... excuse me, a commission... established in sections 142 and 143, who's job it is to do just that... limit care based on life expectancy.

That commission is a "death panel", whether you choose to call it that or not. Call it a "commission" if you want. Call it the Rotary Club if it makes you more comfortable. But it is a group of people that makes decisions, based on the age of the patient, on what care will be provided. That is a "death panel".

It's there in plain English. You choose to ignore it. Fine. But you're not going to convince anyone else that it ain't there when we can give them a copy of the bill and point to the specific wording and allow them to read it for themselves.

Elliot

[excon]

I read the text and the writing of the people who authored it. But that stuff should be ignored evidenty. Sorta like reading the Constitution without reading the Federalist papers if you ask me. But intent it would seem to me would be important when deciding if you support legislation .

Hello again, tom:

I didn't read the papers you refer us too... Maybe I should. However, your reaction to them has biased me already. I can't believe that any papers published by anyone, other than Dr. Kevorkian, would state the writers INTENTION to kill people... It's ludicrous on its face.

Your side continuously said that the bill contained such language, but I couldn't find it. Am I going to have to read 100's of pages to come up with the same conclusion?? Maybe you could give us the Readers Digest version. But, could you use THEIR words?? I don't know if I'd trust you to interpret them.

Now, if you're suggesting that there's going to be some end of life decisions made by some people, that's true. But, it's no different today. You wouldn't be suggesting that your insurance carrier will cover EVERYTHING an aged person might want, are you?? No, you wouldn't. Because there is some insurance company adjuster who's going to have his own "death panel", isn't he?

excon

[NeedKarma]

Why thanks Elliot, took you long enough. :)

Here's the text immediately before that paragraph:

'(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term 'order regarding life sustaining treatment' means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink


20
'(I) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

6
'(ii) effectively communicates the individual's preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

'(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink


1
'(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.

It's the individual's preference, not anyone else's decision.

[ETWolverine]

Why thanks Elliot, took you long enough. :)

Here's the text immediately before that paragraph:
It's the individual's preference, not anyone else's decision.

Did you read the part about a counselor telling people they SHOULD make choices to limit their care by filling our DNRs, DNIs, living wills, etc.

So what we have are commissions that determine levels of care based on age, send out counselors to convince people to allow themselves to die rather than obtain care, and have specific rules to limit care.

Thanks, NK. You're just proving my point.

Death panels AND death counselors.

All run by the same people who brought you the postal system, the IRS and Social Security.

'nuff said.

Elliot