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    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #1

    Aug 16, 2008, 07:53 PM
    Saddleback : Obama, McCain , and Warren
    A FOX news exclusive


    What did you all think?

    Obama has been the more expressive of his faith, at one point quoting Micah 6:8,
    whereas McCain has been more reticent, so at the outset I thought Obama would do well.



    On when does life begin
    Obama never fully answered the question. "its above my pay grade"
    McCain - at conception.


    On Embryonic stem cell research:
    Obama " if " induced pluripotent stem cells... [ does he not read the paper ?]
    McCain already was championing iPPSC from the skin


    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/altern...ml#post1190387

    Stem Cell Technology: First Neurons Created From ALS Patient's Skin Cells


    On evil:
    Obama acknowledges it and would confront it - like drugs and other social issues
    McCain - Al Quaeda


    On Supreme court justices to rescind:
    Obama - Thomas
    McCain - Ginsburg, Souter, Breyers, Stevens :)


    on "flip Flopping"
    Obama - 94 welfare reform?
    McCain - offshore drilling, torture, but he never mentioned immigration :confused: :(


    On biggest moral failing
    Obama - drug use a teen - honest
    McCain - 1st marriage

    on the USA's biggest moral failing
    Obama - not doing enough for the poor etc.. :)
    McCain - for being to self interested and not serving a higher goal [ pandering to Warren ] :)


    On "rich"
    Obama > after chiding Warren " when you sell 25 million books..." $250000
    McCaine - flippantly $5 million,:p after he stated that he wants low taxes so everyone could have an opportunity to be rich.

    On when to commit American troops
    McCain - for feedom, national security, and a probability of a good outcome
    I can't remember what Obama said


    I thought it was very good - no attacking the other, just where they stand on some issues.



    Obama was personable but He definitely has a higher "uh count" - seemed like he was thinking about exactly what he wanted to say in a lot of answers? McCain was surprisingly very quick.

    McCain's governmental and life experiences clearly where to his advantage
    BABRAM's Avatar
    BABRAM Posts: 561, Reputation: 145
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    #2

    Aug 16, 2008, 09:07 PM
    The way this post reads I thought at first that I missed a live national debate. But then I realized it's just another Fox news commentary piece (although an incomplete one).

    Obama's more focused on the domestic issues, whereas McCain doesn't even try to disguise the fact that he wants to be in our backyard and everybody else. Obama's very Reaganesque with his use of "uh," in the communication process. Whereas McCain relies more on his advisers preparations before taking stage. The faith issue is a wash. Most all the candidates have used the bible quotes. The judges have all had various opinions in previous case decisions so I'm a bit complacent to arbitrarily pick one over the other. I've seen some fairly liberal appointed judges be more stringent in making decisions than an expected traditionally conservative judges, and likewise. Now drug abuse, and multiple failed marriages, would be a sign of bigger problems. However drug use as a teen, and a failed marriage, covers most candidates in the modern era.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #3

    Aug 18, 2008, 03:29 AM
    Transcripts are here .
    ONLINE NEWSROOM: Rick Warren

    Obama's answer on abortion was ridiculous. After he dodged the question with his "theological perspective or a scientific perspective" garbage he completely sidestepped it. The question wasn't an egg head debate about the moment when human life begins .It was at what point does a baby get human rights ?
    This question is relevant because Obama led the effort in Ill. To make sure babies born during botched abortions get murdered.

    RealClearPolitics - Articles - McCain Shines at Saddleback Forum
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #4

    Aug 18, 2008, 10:31 AM
    What i liked is why obama would not have nominated clarence thomas, he was a little green behind the ears, lol.

    i would not have nominated clarence thomas. I don't think that he. I don't think that he was a strong enough jurist or legal thinker at the time for that elevation. Setting aside the fact that i profoundly disagree with his interpretation of a lot of constitution.
    Speaking as the candidate of experience of course...
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #5

    Aug 18, 2008, 10:38 AM
    The tinfoil hats were in full force yesterday. Remember when they accused Bush of having an ear plug so he could be told what his response should be ? Well this time they accused McCain of listening to the questioning of Obama while he rode to the event ;and knew what his responses would be because he wasn't in some kind of cone of silence.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #6

    Aug 18, 2008, 11:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55
    The tinfoil hats were in full force yesterday. Remember when they accused Bush of having an ear plug so he could be told what his response should be ? Well this time they accused McCain of listening to the questioning of Obama while he rode to the event ;and knew what his responses would be because he wasn't in some kind of cone of silence.
    And it wasn't just your garden variety tinfoiler, it was suggested by Obama staffers I hear. Since they both knew the "hardest questions" before hand I don't buy this cheating thing.
    BABRAM's Avatar
    BABRAM Posts: 561, Reputation: 145
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    #7

    Aug 18, 2008, 07:39 PM
    Nobody cheated, and nobody should care. This was not a debate, just more campaigning noise that's been said thousand times already. I'll be glad to get them face to face on stage for the first live debate. By the time a second debate comes around, hotheaded McCain's tongue will be baked to the roof of his mouth, and his steaming ears will stick to his tinfoil grill.
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #8

    Aug 19, 2008, 12:44 AM
    But the thing is, this was just a question answer. Obama had to know and be prepped about possible questions from an evangelical Baptist, yet He seemed so hesitant in his answers. Like He knew what his stance was, say on abortion, but was afraid to just come out and say it.


    And regarding faith based organizations and federal funding, he hemhawed. He could have just said something like; when it comes to helping others in need does it really matter if it is a doctrinally pure straightlaced church goer or a tatooed transgender pierced recovering drug user ? We are all sinners, trying to serve others.


    McCain settled in and answered quickly and confidently. Sometimes he seemed practiced, after all he prefers townhall settings, relying almost ad nauseum on his military background.


    I think Obama is at his best when he is being himself. He quoted from Matthew 25 and Micah 6 so naturally. And although he did not point out Al Quaeda as evil, he rightly pointed to the everyday evils of drugs and abuse that are all to commonplace.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #9

    Aug 19, 2008, 05:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox
    he rightly pointed to the everyday evils of drugs and abuse that are all to commonplace.
    Hello in:

    Ron Paul for president!! HE realizes that the evil the government does to drug users is MUCH worse that any evil they might have done.

    excon
    BABRAM's Avatar
    BABRAM Posts: 561, Reputation: 145
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    #10

    Aug 19, 2008, 09:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox
    But the thing is, this was just a question answer. Obama had to know and be prepped about possible questions from an evangelical Baptist, yet He seemed so hesitant in his answers. Like He knew what his stance was, say on abortion, but was afraid to just come out and say it.


    And regarding faith based organizations and federal funding, he hemhawed. He could have just said something like; when it comes to helping others in need does it really matter if it is a doctrinally pure straightlaced church goer or a tatooed transgender pierced recovering drug user ? We are all sinners, trying to serve others.


    McCain settled in and answered quickly and confidently. Sometimes he seemed practiced, afterall he prefers townhall settings, relying almost ad nauseum on his military background.


    I think Obama is at his best when he is being himself. He quoted from Matthew 25 and Micah 6 so naturally. And although he did not point out Al Quaeda as evil, he rightly pointed to the everyday evils of drugs and abuse that are all to commonplace.
    You're logic is too narrow here. The US has it's share of the public that likes McCain's 'blurt it out' simpleton approach, but it's not for me. I sure don't want his simplistic thinking at the helm with one finger resting on the red button. "Evil" is a broad term that encompasses more than Al Qaeda or chemical dependencies. I suppose with the Olympics happening this 'glorified interview question and answer session' using a Baptist preacher was the Fox network's shining moment. :rolleyes: Personally I'll be glad when they debate each other face to face, relate point, and make counterpoints.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #11

    Aug 19, 2008, 09:52 AM
    In all fairness the forum wasn't the best for Obama ;and it was critical for McCain to get it right. This was probably McCain's best opportunity to shore up his base of social conservatives . I think he nailed it.
    For Obama ;to say what he wa truly thinking would've been a disaster. That is why he hemmed and hawed and stumbled trying to find nuianced answers. His base has been less than pleased at his attempted shift to the middle as it is .This performance did not help.

    Regarding his amazingly ignorant statements about Justice Thomas... that is the debate I'd like to see!! Obama with his superior understanding of the law v. Justice Thomas... subject... about their differing judicial philosophies of " originalism" v. "living Constitution" .
    Clearly he did not think his response through and just barely stopped before saying that he thought Thomas was too "inexperienced " when he was appointed .(listen to the audio) .
    BABRAM's Avatar
    BABRAM Posts: 561, Reputation: 145
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    #12

    Aug 19, 2008, 10:12 AM
    McCain's campaign handlers know that he needs as much of a controlled environment as possible, or he's runs a high risk of being exposed by Obama's counterpoints. I'm fairly certain at least one of the debates will bring up Supreme Court appointees.
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #13

    Aug 19, 2008, 01:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    Hello in:

    Ron Paul for president!!! HE realizes that the evil the government does to drug users is MUCH worse that any evil they might have done.

    excon

    Isn't the evil that drug users do to themselves, their families, and friends more than the government does?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #14

    Aug 19, 2008, 01:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox
    Isn't the evil that drug users do to themselves, their families, and friends more than the government does?
    Hello again, in:

    Most of the drug arrests in the country are for marijuana possession. They do themselves and their families NO harm. The government, should it catch them, does them GREAT harm.

    Hard drugs aren't good. Nobody said they are. However, putting these people through the criminal justice system DOES them more harm than the drug does. They belong in the health system.

    Finally, more families are negatively affected by alcohol abuse than drug abuse.

    excon
    Smoked's Avatar
    Smoked Posts: 157, Reputation: 29
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    #15

    Aug 19, 2008, 01:28 PM
    I thought the whole thing was a complete joke...

    Politicians on the stage with a seeker sensitive pasture trying to make more of a name for himself... enough said.
    Smoked's Avatar
    Smoked Posts: 157, Reputation: 29
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    #16

    Aug 19, 2008, 01:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    Finally, more families are negatively affected by alcohol abuse than drug abuse.

    excon
    Excon makes a huge point.. Alcohol is socially acceptable and legal yet has far worse negative affects on the user and anyone around them.
    BABRAM's Avatar
    BABRAM Posts: 561, Reputation: 145
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    #17

    Aug 19, 2008, 02:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoked
    Excon makes a huge point..Alcohol is socially acceptable and legal yet has far worse negative affects on the user and anyone around them.

    Excellent point. Alcohol when not used in moderation has proven more deadly, than casual or moderate marijuana use. Alcoholism is a proven physiological and psychological addiction, whereas THC accounts for mild-to-null withdrawal symptoms, and thus lower incidence of addiction, i.e. mainly psychological effects. Not that marijuana is without fault when abused, it certainly can be as dangerous as over eating, fat intake, and high cholesterol levels (associated with health concerns), but historically less abused than alcohol.


    PS. I'm a socially casual wine drinker, with exception to a shot of vodka, or scotch, once in a great while.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #18

    Aug 20, 2008, 11:05 AM
    Smoked, you're not the only one who thought it was a joke. DeWayne Wickham at USA Today had plenty to say - most of it ridiculous. After impugning the character of Rick Warren he complained of the candidates being asked about their greatest moral failure.

    Yet ahead of Saturday's forum, Warren sold himself to CNN as an honest broker. As his interviews made clear, though, Warren's doublespeak cloaked an effort to get the candidates to take a stand on many of those non-negotiable issues, which he apparently still considers matters of religious faith and qualification for public office. His questions about their "world view" on Christianity, abortion and the definition of marriage reflected not so much a civil forum as a push for a theocratic presidency, one that would be deeply influenced by Warren's evangelism.

    Just as worrisome for me was his call for McCain and Obama to confess their "greatest moral failure." That's a pretty far-reaching inquiry that would be better answered in a pastor's study than on national TV unless, of course, the purpose is political persuasion, not personal salvation. Even so, Obama said it was his drug and alcohol use during his youth. McCain said it was the failure of his first marriage.
    After all the times I've heard that Bush lied, tortured and ruined the planet you'd think the left actually had in interest in the moral character of the president. I guess not.

    The course of history might have been changed and not necessarily for the better if Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy had been made to answer that question during their campaigns.

    Religion, rightly, is an important part of American society. But this nation's faith is not monolithic. We are Catholics and Jews, Protestants and Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists, evangelical and progressive Christians.

    The president's job is not to rid the world of the Bible's Beelzebub but rather the worldly devils that afflict us. It is to properly handle the difficult issues of war and peace, to manage the domestic affairs of this great melting pot, and to ensure this country's longstanding guarantee of religious freedom and protect its commitment to a secular government. CNN did these causes a great disservice by giving a leader of just one of this nation's religious faiths a platform to influence the outcome of the coming presidential election.

    What we need in the White House is a devout believer in this nation's democratic principles, not the vicar of Saddleback.
    I wonder if Jefferson, Jackson, Roosevelt and co. ever had anything to say about moral values? Is not terrorism a "worldly devil?" And why does no one complain when Democrats fish for votes in black churches?

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