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    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #1

    Jun 29, 2009, 09:23 AM
    Obama's foreign policy
    What should we make of Obama's foreign policy? He was set to 'restore' America's standing in the world but it sure seems to me the administration's foreign policy is about as clear as mud. Foot dragging on Iran's freedom movement, snubbing the French, irritating the UK by transferring Gitmo detainees to Bermuda, restoring ties to Venezuela and Syria, and now apparently mucking things up over Honduras.

    Obama apparently "had worked for weeks to try to avert any moves to overthrow President Zelaya," a crony of Hugo the Clown Chavez. The administration's response to the coup was "call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law."

    The only problem is Zelaya was violating the constitution by holding a referendum by popular vote to allow him to serve another term. In response, the Honduran high court ordered the coup.

    "Today's events originate from a court order by a competent judge. The armed forces, in charge of supporting the constitution, acted to defend the state of law and have been forced to apply legal dispositions against those who have expressed themselves publicly and acted against the dispositions of the basic law."
    Why then was Obama supporting the guy who was flouting their constitution as opposed to those upholding their constitution against this power grab?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #2

    Jun 29, 2009, 10:10 AM
    The MSM is busy misrepresenting what happened in Honduras.

    The guy was trying a Hugo Chavez-like putsch .Honduran Congress and SCOTUS both told him that he could not change the Constitution by the method he planned.
    Venezuela was actually involved in printing the referendum ballots . When they were delivered he tried to force the military to distribute them . They refused .

    He then had a mob ;his own personal ACORN ,attack the military HQ .They took the ballots and began to distribute them .Only after that did the military remove him from power with the blessing of their court . This is not a coup .If Nixon had been impeached and forceably removed from office it likewise would not have been a coup.

    Evita spinning this as an coup against a "democratically elected President " ignores all the facts after the election. The guy is a Bolivarian and their MO is to get popular support ;win elections and force a change in the Constitution to give them dictatorial control over the country.What the Honduran military did was defend their democracy .
    Buxenstein's Avatar
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    #3

    Jun 29, 2009, 10:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    He then had a mob ;his own personal ACORN ,attack the military HQ ....
    :p LMAO
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #4

    Jun 30, 2009, 02:08 PM
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #5

    Jul 1, 2009, 06:22 AM

    Hello:

    Here's where you guys go wrong and get us into all sorts of trouble...

    I know you don't like him, but a democratically elected leader isn't a dictator no matter how much you don't like his politics.

    See, calling someone a dictator when he's NOT, COULD get us into stupid trouble... You really should remember the WMD stuff... This is REAL similar to that crap. Words actually DO matter, and you shouldn't be so sloppy with 'em.

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #6

    Jul 1, 2009, 07:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello:

    Here's where you guys go wrong and get us into all sorts of trouble...

    I know you don't like him, but a democratically elected leader isn't a dictator no matter how much you don't like his politics.

    See, calling someone a dictator when he's NOT, COULD get us into stupid trouble... You really should remember the WMD stuff... This is REAL similar to that crap. Words actually DO matter, and you shouldn't be so sloppy with 'em.
    No, he was a wannabe dictator, that's why he violated the law and led a mob to break into the military facility that had the unconstitutional ballots shipped to him by Hugo the Clown Chavez, steal them and distribute them. I haven't heard a word from the Obama administration about that, about how illegal his attempted power grab was, only that Honduras rightfully enforcing their constitution was "not legal." Yeah, words do matter and Obama can't seem to find the right words in any foreign policy matter.

    That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

    But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

    The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

    Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

    The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

    It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

    Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

    Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.
    When the heck is Obama going to stand by those DEFENDING Honduran democracy instead of those attempting to overthrow it?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #7

    Jul 1, 2009, 07:03 AM
    If he is trying to become a dictator he is a dictator . Your argument holds no water . His removal was completely lawful and Constitutional . Democracy is not only about elections . This one and done cr*p that the Bolivarians are pulling is NOT democracy.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #8

    Jul 1, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    His removal was completely lawful and Constitutional . Democracy is not only about elections .
    Hello again, tom:

    I don't know. I've never read a Constitution where it says the military can take over if it doesn't like what's going on... Maybe you can refer me to one.

    Pardon me. Democracy is not about elections?? Democracy IS about a military takeover!! Dude!!

    So, if OUR military attempted a coup here because Obama is going "socialist" or "destroying the country", then that would be democracy in action?? Is this how the rightwing is twisting things these days??

    You guys are even more bonkers than I thought.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #9

    Jul 1, 2009, 07:36 AM

    The military was responding to a lawful order by their Supreme Court . Dude ;take the same situation and replace the name Zelaya with Richard Nixon or President Bush .

    Suppose they tried to unconstitutionally hold a referendum to change the Constitution to give them lifetime Presidency.
    Suppose then when Congress and the Courts told him he couldn't that he tried to get the military to conduct the sham referendum.

    What would've happened if let's say Nixon had refused to step down after Congress ordered him out if Watergate had played out to it's conclusion ? Would the forced removal be democracy in action or a coup ?

    I cannot believe you think this attempted takeover of the country by Zelaya is "democracy" .
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #10

    Jul 1, 2009, 08:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The military was responding to a lawful order by their Supreme Court .

    Suppose they tried to unconstitutionally hold a referendum to change the Constitution to give them lifetime Presidency.

    Suppose then when Congress and the Courts told him he couldn't that he tried to get the military to conduct the sham referendum.
    Hello again, tom:

    Wow! Talk about an activist Supreme Court. So, if OURS did that, it wouldn't be activist, it would be democracy. That's pretty bonkers, dude!

    He was elected. There ARE checks on his powers. I'll bet the military ISN'T one 'em. If they stayed OUT of it, it wouldn't matter what he asked them to do, he no POWER to make them do it. Plus, I'll bet they have impeachment in their Constitution, no?

    Yup, you're still bonkers.

    excon
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #11

    Jul 1, 2009, 08:23 AM

    The Supreme court ordered Ike to send troops to the South to force integration.

    What would've happened if he refused ?
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #12

    Jul 1, 2009, 08:27 AM

    This isn't about our constitution.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #13

    Jul 1, 2009, 08:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    This isn't about our constitution.
    Hello again, Steve:

    What difference does it make? We either believe in the rule of law or we don't.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #14

    Jul 1, 2009, 08:32 AM
    By the way ;for the record... the military immediately turned over power back to civilian leadership... someone chosen by their Congress.


    Edit

    Would like to add more details . The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional because by their constitution a constituent assembly (necessary for constitution amending ) can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.
    Before his removal the attorney general of Honduras had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Zelaya was given the choice of being prosecuted or leaving the country .He opted for the later .


    Also ,along with the supreme court order ; 124 of 128 deputies in the unicameral congress of Honduras approved the military removing him from office .In an emergency session they designated an interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #15

    Jul 1, 2009, 08:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    What difference does it make? We either believe in the rule of law or we don't.
    You're assuming along with Obama that what Honduras did was illegal, and also like him seem to be condoning Zelaya's obviously illegal actions. Which part of the Honduran rule of law do you support?
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #16

    Jul 29, 2009, 01:43 PM
    Time for an update. It was reported yesterday that the Obama administration revoked the visas of several Honduran officials, supposedly including that of the Supreme Court Justice that ordered the arrest of Zelaya. The administration is "stepping up pressure on coup-installed leaders who insist they can resist international demands to restore the ousted president. "

    Reportedly, among those whose visas were revoked are Supreme Court Justice Tomas Arita and Congressional President Jose Alfredo Saavedro, and the administration is reviewing others.

    I'm sure excon will find this a relief that Obama so regards a Democratically elected leader (who happens to be a criminal that wants to install himself as dictator for life), but I find it disturbing that Obama is playing the part of the puppet for the wannabe dictator puppet master...

    Manuel Zelaya, who was removed from office on June 28 and has now retreated to the mountains of Nicaragua to organize a "resistance," according to the Central American News Agency, reportedly sent a letter to Obama asking him to ramp up the pressure on the interim government and calling for the "revocation of visas" to those involved in his ouster, and the freezing of bank accounts.

    The Zelaya letter reportedly names officials against whom the ousted president wanted action taken, including General Romeo Vasquez Velasquez, the head of the armed forces who was fired by Zelaya on June 25 for refusing to use the military to press forward with a referendum deemed illegal by the country's highest court.
    So Zelaya sends Obama a letter wanting revenge and Obama complies. Isn't that nice? We do the bidding of the wannabe dictator, we won't work with the current Honduran government and we'll penalize their officials, all while we open talks with the terrorist Taliban and coddle the Iranians.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #17

    Aug 28, 2009, 08:52 AM
    YOu should be happy ex, the Obama administration is likely to label the Hondurans retaking of democracy a "military coup" which will require that we cut them off from millions in foreign aid.

    U.S. State Department staff have recommended that the ouster of Honduran President Manuel Zelaya be declared a "military coup," a U.S. official said on Thursday, a step that could cut off as much as $150 million in U.S. funding to the impoverished Central American nation.

    The official, who spoke on condition he not be named, said State Department staff had made such a recommendation to U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who has yet to make a decision on the matter although one was likely soon.
    What an a$$. And speaking of that, Obama is snubbing yet another ally in Poland.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #18

    Aug 28, 2009, 09:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    YOu should be happy ex, the Obama administration is likely to label the Hondurans retaking of democracy a "military coup"
    Hello again, Steve:

    Let me see. The democratically elected president is overthrown by the military, in a classic coup, yet you call it something else... It IS what it IS. You can't change the name of it just because you don't like it. I thought only liberals were PC like that.

    excon
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,827, Reputation: 739
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    #19

    Aug 28, 2009, 09:55 AM
    Ex, the way I read it is that he was thrown out by the Court. The military forces obeyed their orders as determined by the courts. Our armed forces do the same thing, like in Alabama several decades ago.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #20

    Aug 28, 2009, 10:01 AM

    What happened in Honduras was the preservation of their democracyfrom an attempted dictatorial take over .The legislature and Supreme Court ,and the military acting on their behalf ,refused to let Zelaya use unconstitutional methods to take over the government .I don't give a damn that he was elected . What Zelaya attempted was not democracy .It was the move of a despot.

    But it doesn't surprise me that the President would side with a Chavez wannabee .

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