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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #1

    Mar 22, 2009, 07:34 AM
    Marijuana and small government righty's
    Hello experts:

    I don't know.

    I BELIEVE righty's when they talk about small government... That's why I don't understand how THEY don't understand, why the DEA is a prime example of BIG GOVERNMENT.

    Righty's mouth the words about government interference in your life, but believe they have the RIGHT to tell you what to do with your own body, and believe they have the RIGHT to hire police forces with guns to enforce it.

    I truly don't understand the disconnect. Ordinarily, righty's seem to be like you and me. You can't tell 'em apart by looking... But, utter a few choice words in their presence, and they'll stick out like sore thumbs. Yup, like preprogrammed zombies, when they hear words like Gitmo or marijuana, they actually lose their minds.

    Point of fact, Senator Charles Grassley, (R) of Iowa, a long-time proponent of small government, does not object to the crass interference into the lives of American citizens perpetrated for more than 40 years by the so called War on Drugs. Are states' rights and personal liberty only catch phrases for Grassley and his cohorts, or is true application of these principles too threatening to contemplate?

    Apparently so, for Grassley recently criticized Eric Holder and the Obama administration for the decision to no longer target medical cannabis dispensaries which comply with state law.

    Since I've been posting stuff about marijuana, our local righty's have ALL said that they believe pot should be legal, and they don't engage me... But, I want to know if they've DONE anything about it, instead of just mouthing words. It is, after all, THEIR party who is blocking the way.

    By the way, the trouble on our southern border would END in a moment, if we ENDED the drug war.

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #2

    Mar 22, 2009, 09:44 AM
    Other than agree with you here (to an extent anyway), naaa... too busy trying to head off socialism. :D
    andrewc24301's Avatar
    andrewc24301 Posts: 374, Reputation: 29
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    #3

    Mar 22, 2009, 02:34 PM

    Well, there is the key. Legalize it, tax it like cigarettes. Everyone gets high and happy. People start buying more snacks, more TV's.
    Millions of non-violent marijuana offenders are released freeing untold billions or dollars from the prison system.

    Hey- the founders grew pot, and whiskey too!
    200 years later, we find ourself back under own own little version of British rule.

    Amazing how things come full circle.
    galveston's Avatar
    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #4

    Mar 22, 2009, 06:49 PM

    Ummm---am I wrong in thinking that MaryJane isn't the ONLY drug coming North from Mexico?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #5

    Mar 23, 2009, 05:06 AM

    I for one have never proposed making it legal. I think penalties should be reduced and if it is determined by extensive clinical trials to have pharmaceutical benefit (I don't buy for one second the argument put forth that marijuana has absolutely no negative effects and can cure or relieve a wide range of illnesses) ;to regulate it as a perscription with the caveat that there should be strict laws against driving under the influence ;and operation of heavy equipment . Employers should have the disgression to discipline stoned employees on the job.
    My opinion is not based on Constitutional issues but a basic surrender . I consider the DEA important for national security reasons . By not emphasizing Marjuana it would free up resources to combat the availability of more dangerous illegal drugs.But I recognize that unless you are willing to legalize all drugs then you have just moved the line in the sand and you are now a hypocrite to the next user down the line. That is why the counter argument about alcohol and tobacco is so effective .

    The "war on drugs" is very winnable if resources and priorities were shifted... or do you think the government has no business regulating what comes into the country... legal and illegal commerce and human traffic ? Making all drugs legal will have as much an impact on eliminating the cartels as reversing prohibition and legalizing gambling had on eliminating the Mafia.

    Now about the Constitutional question...
    Tenth Amendment arguments fail when they collide with the precedents broadly interpreting the Necessary and Proper Clause ,and the Interstate Commerce Clause.

    Even if SCOTUS ruled in favor of things like the state Medical Marijuana laws ,the Congress would just rewrite prohibitions into the national law. Your best course of action would to try to convince Congress to pass national laws in favor of your position .

    This is not a question of Federalism. Federalism does not mean that states get to override federal law, when that law is Constitutional. Could I counterfeit currency in NY if NY had a law that allowed it or had no law against it ? Of course not !
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #6

    Mar 23, 2009, 05:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The "war on drugs" is very winnable if resources and priorities were shifted .....or do you think the government has no business regulating what comes into the country ....legal and illegal commerce and human traffic ? Making all drugs legal will have as much an impact on eliminating the cartels as reversing prohibition and legalizing gambling had on eliminating the Mafia.
    Hello tom:

    I don't know tom. For 40 years your side has been saying the same thing. We can win if we only "crack down". That argument is wearing thin. It flies in the face of history and logic. I can't still believe that you're parading it out again... But, maybe when you've LOST YOUR MIND, up is down, and down is up.

    If you weren't so blinded by your anti drug rhetoric, the evidence is CLEAR that we're losing. The more we crack down, the more we lose...

    I KNOW there's a lesson there, and I KNOW you're never going to get it... Specially since you don't think the end of prohibition did much.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #7

    Mar 23, 2009, 05:40 AM

    Not much to debate when the counter to my argument is that I've lost my mind.

    I guess the answer to "losing " is to give up . I get that .That is the easy answer when things are tough.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #8

    Mar 23, 2009, 06:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I guess the answer to "losing " is to give up . I get that .That is the easy answer when things are tough.
    Hello again, tom:

    Yes, when what you're doing ISN'T producing the desired result, giving it up, IS the thing to do.

    I'm sorry you don't like my charachterization... But, you've solidified it above with more of the NONSENSICAL right wing crazy crap, by suggesting that if you're LOSING - DO MORE OF WHAT CAUSED YOU TO LOSE.

    That's nuts. It really is. Really!

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #9

    Mar 23, 2009, 06:46 AM

    The "war on drugs" is very winnable if resources and priorities were shifted
    Does that sound like doing more of the same ?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #10

    Mar 23, 2009, 06:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    does that sound like doing more of the same ?
    Hello again, tom:

    It does, given that it's been said, and acted upon countless times in the past...

    Now, I know that what you mean is REALLY cracking down, and not pu$$yfooting around like we have before...

    I also know that you haven't given that much thought beyond it being a right wing talking point... Because if you did, (and you're a smart man), you'd see that the only way to WIN the drug war with force, is to have ONE cop for EVERY CITIZEN.

    That may be your vision for the future, but it isn't mine.

    excon
    galveston's Avatar
    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #11

    Mar 23, 2009, 09:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, tom:

    I also know that you haven't given that much thought beyond it being a right wing talking point... Because if you did, (and you're a smart man), you'd see that the only way to WIN the drug war with force, is to have ONE cop for EVERY CITIZEN.

    That may be your vision for the future, but it isn't mine.

    excon
    Nope! Get more people acquainted with Jesus Christ and to that extent you have WON the war on drugs.

    (I didn't think you would agree):D
    spitvenom's Avatar
    spitvenom Posts: 1,266, Reputation: 373
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    #12

    Mar 23, 2009, 10:28 AM

    Gal if God made everything on earth then God Made pot. So you are telling me God didn't put it here for us to use?
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #13

    Mar 23, 2009, 10:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    Nope! Get more people acquainted with Jesus Christ and to that extent you have WON the war on drugs.
    Seems a lot of people are acquainted with Jesus Christ and that has not stop them from adultery, pedophilia, murder, cussing, substance abuse, etc.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #14

    Mar 23, 2009, 10:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Seems a lot of people are acquainted with Jesus Christ and that has not stop them from adultery, pedophilia, murder, cussing, substance abuse, etc.
    Well, now that response was a surprise. :rolleyes:

    I don't know any Christians that claim to be perfect, but I know an awful lot that have been changed.
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #15

    Mar 23, 2009, 10:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I don't know any Christians that claim to be perfect, but I know an awful lot that have been changed.
    Agreed but it's not the cure-all Gal purports it to be.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #16

    Mar 23, 2009, 11:26 AM

    Excon,

    First of all, as I have said before, I agree with your stance vis-à-vis marajuana.

    And I agree that the DEA is just another bloated, ineffective part of a bloated, ineffective government.

    However, I disagree with your last statement, that the troubles on the southern border would just end if we legalized marajuana.

    There are a lot harder drugs coming in over the southern border than marajuana. Cocaine, heroine, opiates of various types, etc. all come in from the south. Legalizing marajuana won't stop drug crimes. Nor would shutting down the DEA.

    We might be able to legalize marajuana. There is a lot of popular support for that. But I don't think there are very many people who think that we should legalize heroine, cocaine etc. And as long as there is SOMETHING illegal in this country that someone wants, there will be fights among the criminals who are willing to supply it.

    Furthermore, the problems on the border are bigger and more complicated than just the illegal drug trade. There are robberies, rapes and murders taking place every day by thugs coming over the border. There are human trafficking rings (both for cheap labor and for sex). There are knockoff products (including knockoffs of legal drugs and vitamins) that are smuggled in and are of poor quality and in many cases downright dangerous. There's the "standard" illegal immigration. There's the threat of terrorists coming in from the southern border.

    NONE of those issues are solved by legalizing marajuana or getting rid of the DEA.

    Sorry, but your solution is oversimplified.

    Elliot
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #17

    Mar 23, 2009, 11:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, tom:

    Yes, when what you're doing ISN'T producing the desired result, giving it up, IS the thing to do.

    I'm sorry you don't like my charachterization.... But, you've solidified it above with more of the NONSENSICAL right wing crazy crap, by suggesting that if you're LOSING - DO MORE OF WHAT CAUSED YOU TO LOSE.

    That's nuts. It really is. Really!
    No it isn't.

    Here's an example. If you have a running faucet, and you turn the knob only part of the way, the water will continue to run. Do you stop trying to turn off the water because "you've already tried it and it didn't work"? HAVE you really tried it at all if you didn't put in a serious effort and really try turning the knob all the way?

    Tom is simply suggesting that we turn the faucet all the way off and see whether the water stops running before giving up on the idea of using the knobs. You are already saying the knobs don't work and we need to get a whole new sink.

    Elliot
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #18

    Mar 23, 2009, 11:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    However, I disagree with your last statement, that the troubles on the southern border would just end if we legalized marajuana.

    There are a lot harder drugs coming in over the southern border than marijuana. Cocaine, heroine, opiates of various types, etc. all come in from the south. Legalizing marajuana won't stop drug crimes. Nor would shutting down the DEA.

    We might be able to legalize marajuana. There is a lot of popular support for that. But I don't think there are very many people who think that we should legalize heroine, cocaine etc. And as long as there is SOMETHING illegal in this country that someone wants, there will be fights among the criminals who are willing to supply it.
    Hello El:

    I said the problems on the border would end with the DRUG WAR, not just the legalization of pot.

    Your last paragraph is a GREAT argument for ending the ENTIRE drug war - not just marijuana. As a matter of fact, domestic consumption of pot is now supplied domestically. The cartels ONLY have their power because of the harder drugs.

    excon
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #19

    Mar 23, 2009, 01:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello El:

    I said the problems on the border would end with the DRUG WAR, not just the legalization of pot.

    Your last paragraph is a GREAT argument for ending the ENTIRE drug war - not just marijuana. As a matter of fact, domestic consumption of pot is now supplied domestically. The cartels ONLY have their power because of the harder drugs.

    excon
    So you're arguing in favor of legalization of ALL drugs. That's a bit further than you have gone in our other conversations on this subject. I don't agree with that stance. MJ is one thing. Heroine is quite another.

    And as a matter of curiosity, apropo of nothing, if you are talking about all drugs, why does the header of your OP reference marijuana?

    Elliot
    galveston's Avatar
    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #20

    Mar 23, 2009, 01:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Seems a lot of people are acquainted with Jesus Christ and that has not stop them from adultery, pedophilia, murder, cussing, substance abuse, etc.
    I have been around for a lot of years and I have never known a Christian who was guilty of these things.

    Please note again, I said Christian, not church member. There is sometimes a difference.

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