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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #1

    Jan 18, 2022, 07:37 AM
    Herr Doctor Fauci's agencies created transformer monkeys with your tax dollars
    National Institutes of Health (NIH), the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), gave at least $205 thousand to Scripps Research in December of 2021 to study why transgender women have high rates of HIV.

    To do this study they injected female hormones into male monkeys The NIH says that doing this allows them to study how the hormones impact the monkeys’ immune systems.

    RePORT ⟩ RePORTER (nih.gov)


    PETA is very critical of Fauci's junk science.

    But rather than holding a proper clinical study with willing human patients that would yield relevant information, these experimenters have decided to use monkeys, who can’t become infected with HIV. It’s just bad science to suggest that dosing monkeys with feminizing medication makes them good stand-ins for humans.

    NIH Wants to Create Transgender Monkeys to Study HIV | PETA
    Athos's Avatar
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    #2

    Jan 18, 2022, 09:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    National Institutes of Health (NIH), the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), gave at least $205 thousand to Scripps Research in December of 2021 to study why transgender women have high rates of HIV.
    The NIH has been using monkeys for health experiments long before Dr. Fauci's time. Have you been protesting animal experimentation before today? Probably not. It's Fauci that disturbs you, not animal experimentation.

    For the record, I am against ALL animal experimentation except the ones that are benign.
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    #3

    Jan 20, 2022, 05:18 AM
    I disagree about the reason for this experiment Some experiments on animals advance human's health (i.e., the recent heart transplant from a genetically modified pig to a human)

    This one has no value in my thinking . If transformers have a higher rate of HIV , it is because of unprotected sex ,or maybe drug use ;or maybe they are more vulnerable to internal bleeding because of the surgical mutilation of their sex organs .
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    #4

    Jan 20, 2022, 11:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    This one has no value in my thinking . If transformers have a higher rate of HIV , it is because of unprotected sex ,or maybe drug use ;or maybe they are more vulnerable to internal bleeding because of the surgical mutilation of their sex organs .
    You are entitled to your thinking. So are the scientists who think the experiment is worthwhile. I go with the science.
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    #5

    Jan 20, 2022, 12:38 PM
    yeah like tax dollars were never squandered before on stupid science experiments. $3 million for shrimp on a treadmill comes immediately to mind.
    Shrimp Treadmill - How Much it Cost Taxpayers (thoughtco.com)
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    #6

    Jan 20, 2022, 03:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    yeah like tax dollars were never squandered before on stupid science experiments. $3 million for shrimp on a treadmill comes immediately to mind.
    Not all scientific research works out as well as NASA. We got TANG out of that one.
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    #7

    Jan 20, 2022, 04:10 PM
    love me some tang !!! ever eat it by the spoon full ?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 4,176, Reputation: 156
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    #8

    Jan 20, 2022, 04:27 PM
    Can you still get it?
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #9

    Jan 20, 2022, 04:50 PM
    yes in multiple flavors and in a frozen variety .
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #10

    Jan 21, 2022, 04:48 PM
    In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
    Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been over shadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
    The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
    Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.

    IKE farewell address
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    #11

    Jan 21, 2022, 08:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
    The clear and present danger is that the Trump Cult is using the technology to promote the "Big Lie". Trump himself has been using it for decades.

    Ike's "military-industrial complex" is still with us, still a danger. Trump approached this danger especially with the notorious Michael Flynn - a lunatic if there ever was one.
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    #12

    Jan 22, 2022, 04:20 AM
    yeah I get it .... Trump/Repubs bad
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #13

    Jan 22, 2022, 04:35 AM
    Ike had the polio problem and a flu pandemic (H2N2 "the Asian Flu"). His warnings apply to covid today and the broader warning about the scientific-technological elite. It is not just Herr Doctor. It is also about Big Tech conglomerates who have disproportionate power and influence over the American political debate. Military's power and influence is waning. The real threat is the Google's and Amazon's and Facebook's power, Twitter's power to censor and stifle the free exchange of ideas.

    And yes; Ike foresaw Herr Doctor and the cult like influence he has over policy makers. He is self-proclaimed "science ". It is heresy to question him. The scientific -technological elite blacklist any thought they disagree with; and influence policy to the extent that effective treatments to covid are blacklisted. Ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, and certain other drugs are widely recognized effective therapeutics for prevention and treatment of covid. These drugs have been used with great results in many countries. A case can be made that untold numbers of Americans have died unnecessarily as a consequence of the blacklist.
    Ike's real warning was against big government; big tech, big science; big education, big media.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #14

    Jan 22, 2022, 06:20 AM
    This is also true of climate science where government funding depends on pre-determined results .
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    #15

    Jan 22, 2022, 11:52 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Ike foresaw Herr Doctor and the cult like influence he has over policy makers. He is self-proclaimed "science ".
    I'll never understand what you guys have against Dr. Fauci. Decades of dedication to preserving public health and he and his family get death threats from the right-wing. Go figure...

    A case can be made that untold numbers of Americans have died unnecessarily as a consequence of the blacklist.
    Only in the fevered brains of far right wackos. The case without dispute is the one against Trump for his initial lies about Covid - HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS deaths indirectly caused by him. You could look it up.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 4,176, Reputation: 156
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    #16

    Jan 22, 2022, 12:30 PM
    The case without dispute is the one against Trump for his initial lies about Covid - HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS deaths indirectly caused by him. You could look it up.
    Actually, you can't, or not unless you believe the wild tale that Trump being more forthright up front would have caused Covid to leave our shores and never return. To connect hundreds of thousands of deaths to Trump is no more valid than doing the same with Biden. I'm not sure much more could have been done. And there is no telling how many lives have been saved, and chaos avoided, by the amazingly rapid development of the Trump vaccine.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #17

    Jan 22, 2022, 02:05 PM
    I'll never understand what you guys have against Dr. Fauci. Decades of dedication to preserving public health and he and his family get death threats from the right-wing. Go figure...
    I can't speak for anyone else . I have many problems with him I will speak of the major one because it goes with my theme of this over blown devotion to big government love affair of the scientific elites .


    He outright lied and covered up the Wuhan lab involvement and his agencies funding of 'gain of function research ' when that information was critical for an early understanding and response to the pandemic.

    When he was directed to cancel the research by EcoHealth Alliance he resisted . That is documented in a book by Compost reporters Yasmeen Abutaleb and Damian Paletta.titled "Nightmare Scenario: Inside the Trump Administration's Response to the Pandemic That Changed History" .

    Kristian Andersen of the Scripps Research Institute warned Herr doctor in an email that the virus looked genetically engineered. He had a moral, and ethical duty to immediately go to Trump, and the virus task force to disclose that possibilities. Instead of coming clean he kept quiet and never disclosed his agency's possible involvement in the creation of the virus . This lie of omission was critical in the early understanding of the virus .

    Instead he orchestrated a cover up with the likes of Peter Daszak of the Eco-Health Alliance (the business that received the grants Fauci 's agency awarded )who wrote letters to prestigious scientific publications like Lancet using the Chinese lie and convincing them that the virus came from nature .

    Then when pandemic policy was being formulated, he called the virus low risk and argued against travel bans when the idea of restricting travel from China was discussed . This at the same time that China's internal lock down was air tight .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 941, Reputation: 55
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    #18

    Jan 22, 2022, 02:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else .
    As well you can't. But you should speak from the facts. Here are the facts:

    https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/th...-disagreement/

    A later update:

    https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/th...-disagreement/

    Each link is a lengthy article replete with all the issues of concern. They cover Wuhan, Eco-Health, "gain-of-function" (an important issue that Rand Paul misunderstands), Fauci's role, and just about everything else you ever wanted to know about the issue - including all the issues you mentioned in your post.

    If I could give a one-sentence summary, it would be - it is highly unlikely the covid virus, nearly impossible, originated in a Wuhan lab. The articles give complete coverage to the view that it DID originate in the Wuhan lab. It may now be impossible to ever know with 100% accuracy. We will have to live with 99% accuracy.

    I don't know if you will carefully read it, but at least you have been given the opportunity to deeply examine all the issues you brought up.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #19

    Jan 23, 2022, 04:02 AM
    I appreciate the effort to convince me .However links from Factcheck.org won't get it done . They are not an unbiased source . They are the creation of the left wing Annenberg Foundation and is funded by the likes of Facebook and Google ;organizations with their own preconceived narratives to support .

    Suffice it to say that even in the media ,the lab leak theory that was once "debunked" as conspiracy theory is getting a second scrutiny .

    Just one example of many I can pull from the compliant press who now are backtracking the smear is Nicholas Wade who is a respected reporter on science from Nature Magazine and the Slimes .

    You can read the whole article but his summary is:

    Neither the natural emergence nor the lab escape hypothesis can yet be ruled out. There is still no direct evidence for either. So no definitive conclusion can be reached.
    That said, the available evidence leans more strongly in one direction than the other. Readers will form their own opinion. But it seems to me that proponents of lab escape can explain all the available facts about SARS2 considerably more easily than can those who favor natural emergence.
    It’s documented that researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were doing gain-of-function experiments designed to make coronaviruses infect human cells and humanized mice. This is exactly the kind of experiment from which a SARS2-like virus could have emerged. The researchers were not vaccinated against the viruses under study, and they were working in the minimal safety conditions of a BSL2 laboratory. So escape of a virus would not be at all surprising. In all of China, the pandemic broke out on the doorstep of the Wuhan institute. The virus was already well adapted to humans, as expected for a virus grown in humanized mice. It possessed an unusual enhancement, a furin cleavage site, which is not possessed by any other known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, and this site included a double arginine codon also unknown among beta-coronaviruses. What more evidence could you want, aside from the presently unobtainable lab records documenting SARS2’s creation?

    Proponents of natural emergence have a rather harder story to tell. The plausibility of their case rests on a single surmise, the expected parallel between the emergence of SARS2 and that of SARS1 and MERS. But none of the evidence expected in support of such a parallel history has yet emerged. No one has found the bat population that was the source of SARS2, if indeed it ever infected bats. No intermediate host has presented itself, despite an intensive search by Chinese authorities that included the testing of 80,000 animals. There is no evidence of the virus making multiple independent jumps from its intermediate host to people, as both the SARS1 and MERS viruses did. There is no evidence from hospital surveillance records of the epidemic gathering strength in the population as the virus evolved. There is no explanation of why a natural epidemic should break out in Wuhan and nowhere else. There is no good explanation of how the virus acquired its furin cleavage site, which no other SARS-related beta-coronavirus possesses, nor why the site is composed of human-preferred codons. The natural emergence theory battles a bristling array of implausibilities.

    Origin of Covid — Following the Clues | by Nicholas Wade | Medium


    This one that he wrote in September is even more revealing



    New Routes to Making Covid-19 In The Lab | by Nicholas Wade | Medium

    Two new caches of documents have added considerable substance — though not yet proof — to the idea that the SARS2 epidemic may have originated in a lab accident.

    Both are grant requests to do research on introducing a furin cleavage site into a coronavirus .

    “We will introduce appropriate human-specific cleavage sites and evaluate growth potential in Vero cells and HAE cultures.” This means the SARS-like viruses with an inserted cleavage site will be tested in monkey kidney cells, a standard laboratory host for viruses, and in cultures of human airway epithelial (HAE) cells. A virus trained to grow in human airway cells would of course be particularly good at infecting human airways should it escape.

    The proposal was rejected .But as Rand Paul suggested to Herr Doctor ;money is fungible and as Wade points out ;

    It’s routine practice for researchers to use funds from one grant to do experiments that will support their application for the next. Or, EcoHealth could have undertaken them with other funds. At the least, researchers at EcoHealth and the Wuhan Institute of Virology were actively contemplating inserting a cleavage site, very possibly the furin one, into a SARS-related virus, the exact recipe for generating SARS2.

    Another grant proposal was obtained only after a FOIA request and a lawsuit forced it's release .

    This was the full grant proposal and progress reports submitted by EcoHealth to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) (run by Herr Doctor)in support of its research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology from 2014 to 2019.

    From the full grant, it’s now clear that the Wuhan researchers were working with a bat virus, called WIV1, which is related to the virus that caused the SARS1 epidemic of 2003. They swapped out its spike protein gene for that of three other SARS1-related viruses, creating three novel viruses, which they then tested on humanized mice. These are animals genetically engineered to carry the human receptor protein, the virus family’s target, in the cells of their airways.
    The novel viruses caused the mice to lose more weight than the parent virus did, and generated far more viral particles in the mice’s lungs. These enhancements represent a gain of function.

    Although covid did not come from this experiment ;Wade notes that the procedure developed for this experiment was tailor made for creating covid .
    Wade writes ;
    If the NIH had shared its knowledge of these experiments in January 2020, lab leak would have been an obvious possible source of the virus from the very start, and the investigation of its origin might have proceeded far more successfully.

    Why the cover up when Herr Doctor was obviously aware that this type of experimentation was happening in the Wuhan lab ?

    His concluding comment about Dr. Daszak goes right back to my theme about the science -government nexus .


    Dr. Daszak is not a virologist. He has a Ph.D. in parasitology from the University of East London. He is expert at collecting research grants, a rich flow of funds from which he draws off a salary of $411,000. It’s not clear that Dr. Daszak, or maybe anyone else, was competent to judge the full danger of the experiments he was sponsoring.
    It’s easy to be wise after the event, but Dr. Collins and Dr. Fauci surely needed to monitor Dr. Daszak closely and to investigate with alacrity any red flags that might pop up in his domain. It’s not at present clear that they did either.



    Is it possible for a virus to leak from a US lab ,and the government do everything possible to deny and cover up such an event ?
    you bettcha !

    Lyme disease ground zero was Lyme Connecticut which is right across the Long Island Sound from Plum Island Animal Disease Center . The lab is part of DHS and the USDA dedicated to study foreign animal disease in livestock . During the Cold War biological weapons research was conducted there .It has at least 2 documented cases where there was accidental release from the lab. The lab began operations in the 1950s and is scheduled to be shut down , The first known cases of Lyme Disease was in the early 1970s although the presence of tick borne disease has been around for thousands of years . Was it another gain of function experiment accidently released ?

    Those of us who believe in the possibility of Lyme being released from the lab are labeled fringe conspiracy theorists . Ok I can live with that because someone I know has had chronic Lyme disease after getting Lyme disease on Long Island. Since many "experts " have decided that chronic Lyme is not a disease at all and the best treatment appears to be non-traditional medicine . The treatments this person receives is mostly not covered by insurance .
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    #20

    Jan 23, 2022, 09:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I appreciate the effort to convince me .However links from Factcheck.org won't get it done . They are not an unbiased source . They are the creation of the left wing Annenberg Foundation and is funded by the likes of Facebook and Google ;organizations with their own preconceived narratives to support .
    I knew this would happen. Regardless of facts, the source I provided, no matter how detailed, would be charged with being "left-wing". This is generally the position of the right-wing when facts contrary to their position are promulgated.

    Your own source says "No definirtive conclusion can be reached". That is a similar conclusion to the FactCheck articles I presented.

    Since neither one of us is a virologist or a scientist, we'll have to agree to disagree. I will add one thing - no one has any justification for making death threats against Dr. Fauci and his family.

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