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    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #1

    Sep 30, 2009, 07:59 AM
    Government insanity
    Ahhh... our ever-efficient government strikes again.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090929/..._backlash_mich

    State to mom: Stop baby-sitting neighbors' kids

    By JAMES PRICHARD, Associated Press Writer James Prichard, Associated Press Writer Tue Sep 29, 7:23 pm ET

    IRVING TOWNSHIP, Mich. – Each day before the school bus comes to pick up the neighborhood's children, Lisa Snyder did a favor for three of her fellow moms, welcoming their children into her home for about an hour before they left for school.

    Regulators who oversee child care, however, don't see it as charity. Days after the start of the new school year, Snyder received a letter from the Michigan Department of Human Services warning her that if she continued, she'd be violating a law aimed at the operators of unlicensed day care centers.

    "I was freaked out. I was blown away," she said. "I got on the phone immediately, called my husband, then I called all the girls" — that is, the mothers whose kids she watches — "every one of them."

    Snyder's predicament has led to a debate in Michigan about whether a law that says no one may care for unrelated children in their home for more than four weeks each calendar year unless they are licensed day-care providers needs to be changed. It also has irked parents who say they depend on such friendly offers to help them balance work and family.

    On Tuesday, agency Director Ismael Ahmed said good neighbors should be allowed to help each other ensure their children are safe. Gov. Jennifer Granholm instructed Ahmed to work with the state Legislature to change the law, he said.

    "Being a good neighbor means helping your neighbors who are in need," Ahmed said in a written statement. "This could be as simple as providing a cup of sugar, monitoring their house while they're on vacation or making sure their children are safe while they wait for the school bus."

    Snyder learned that the agency was responding to a neighbor's complaint.

    Granholm spokeswoman Liz Boyd said the agency was following standard procedure in its response. "But we feel this (law) really gets in the way of common sense," Boyd said.

    "We want to protect kids, but the law needs to be reasonable," she said. "When the governor learned of this, she acted quickly and called the director personally to ask him to intervene."

    State Rep. Brian Calley, R-Portland, said he was working to draft legislation that would exempt situations like Snyder's from coverage under Michigan's current day care regulations.

    The bill will make it clear that people who aren't in business as day care providers don't need to be licensed, Calley said.

    "These are just kids that wait for the bus every morning," he said. "This is not a day care."

    Snyder, 35, lives in a rural subdivision in Barry County's Irving Township about 25 miles southeast of Grand Rapids. Her tidy, comfortable three-bedroom home is a designated school bus stop. The three neighbor children she watched — plus Snyder's first-grader, Grace — attend school about six miles away in Middleville.

    Snyder said she started watching the other children this school year to help her friends; they often baby-sit for each other during evenings and weekends.

    After receiving the state agency's letter, she said she called the agency and tried to explain that she wasn't running a day care center or accepting money from her friends.

    Under state law, no one may care for unrelated children in their home for more than four weeks each calendar year unless they are licensed day-care providers. Snyder said she stopped watching the other children immediately after receiving the letter, which was well within the four-week period.

    "I've lived in this community for 35 years and everyone I know has done some form of this," said Francie Brummel, 42, who would drop off her second-grade son, Colson, before heading to her job as deputy treasurer of the nearby city of Hastings.

    Other moms say they regularly deal with similar situations.

    Amy Cowan, 34, of Grosse Pointe Farms, a Detroit suburb, said she often takes turns with her sister, neighbor and friend watching each other's children.

    "The worst part of this whole thing, with the state of the economy ... two parents have to work," said Cowan, a corporate sales representative with a 5-year-old son and 11-month-old daughter. "When you throw in the fact that the state is getting involved, it gives women a hard time for going back to work.

    "I applaud the lady who takes in her neighbors' kids while they're waiting for the bus. She's enabling her peers to go to work and get a paycheck. The state should be thankful for that."

    Amy Maciaszek, 42, of McHenry, Ill., who works in direct sales, said she believes the state agency was "trying to be overprotective."

    "I think it does take a village and that's the best way," said Maciaszek, who has a 6-year-old boy and twin 3-year-old daughters. "Unfortunately you do have to be careful about that. These mothers are trying to do the right thing."

    ___ Associated Press writers Randi Goldberg Berris and David Runk in Detroit and Kathy Barks Hoffman in Lansing, Mich. contributed to this report.
    A couple of questions.

    1) Who is the schmuck that complained that his neighbor was watching other people's kids? I want to find that idiot and just smack him/her upside the head.

    2) Seeing this example of how government bureaucrats seem to be able to only operate according to "stadard procedure" and can't seem to think for themselves, do we really want that type of bureaucrat in charge of any part of our lives, much less making "decisions" about our health care? Seems to me that government bureaucrats have their common sense and critical thinking skills removed upon beginning employment within the government.

    Comments?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 344
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    #2

    Sep 30, 2009, 08:27 AM

    The Headline should read NANNYState to Mom...

    Trade associations ,Guilds ,licensing and other credentialisms all have traditionally been used to restrict the number of people providing services to inflate fees associated with the "trade" . It is a form of protectionism... and in this case it has nothing to do with protecting the children. It's the Nanny State protecting it's turf.

    '' If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand.'' Milton Friedman
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #3

    Sep 30, 2009, 08:59 AM

    If you ask me all these child protective services have way too much power anyway. I realize the importance of such agencies but they're out of hand, they can basically do anything they want.

    My precious mom would have probably been jailed if things were like this 30 years ago, she watched everyone's kids and did a damn sight better than any daycare.

    I'm curious though, what would Hillary say about the lady's comment that "it does take a village" in this area?
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #4

    Sep 30, 2009, 12:54 PM

    So much for "it takes a village,"... maybe that should be it takes the state.

    When I was about 10, I was bicycling, having graduated from big wheels, in the cul-de-sac where I grew up. I fell off the bike, hit my head and just started bleeding etc.. My neighbors mom ran out picked me up and carried me home to my mom, who cleaned, my wound, and then took me next door to have my aunt, an obstetrician, stitch up my head on their kitchen table.

    What would have happened to me if every one needed state approval to do what they did?


    G&P
    earl237's Avatar
    earl237 Posts: 532, Reputation: 57
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    #5

    Sep 30, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Nanny-statism is ridiculous. I grew up in the 80s and no one wore bike helmets, seat belts were optional, we rode in the backs of pickup trucks and we went out past dark alone without thinking that a potential pedophile was lurking around every corner. Being cautious is good but overdoing it is just as harmful as being careless. I wish we could turn back the clock.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #6

    Oct 5, 2009, 10:32 AM

    Elliot, Illinois has the answer to people providing some type of care in their homes, unionize them all.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #7

    Oct 5, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Ahhh... our ever-efficient government strikes again.

    State to mom: Stop baby-sitting neighbors' kids - Yahoo! News



    A couple of questions.

    1) Who is the schmuck that complained that his neighbor was watching other people's kids? I want to find that idiot and just smack him/her upside the head.

    2) Seeing this example of how government bureaucrats seem to be able to only operate according to "stadard procedure" and can't seem to think for themselves, do we really want that type of bureaucrat in charge of any part of our lives, much less making "decisions" about our health care? Seems to me that government bureaucrats have their common sense and critical thinking skills removed upon beginning employment within the government.

    Comments?
    Ever heard of child protection? You know government sees this as their thing
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #8

    Oct 6, 2009, 07:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    ever heard of child protection? you know government sees this as their thing
    Yes, I know, that's the problem. They think it's their thing, and they employ people with no ability to use reason or critical thinking skills to do it. That is EXACTLY the problem.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #9

    Oct 6, 2009, 08:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Government insanity.....Comments?
    Hello Elliot:

    Of course, I have a comment...

    I can't help but notice that you left off a LARGE part of government in your diatribe...

    You don't think it's insane for the government to torture in your name, to listen to your phone calls and read your mail WITHOUT a warrant, to spirit people off the streets and render them off to some foreign land for indefinite imprisonment... You don't think THOSE things are insane at all.

    I do.

    So clearly, it's not "government insanity" that you don't like. It's simply a SEGMENT of the government that you don't like... The OTHER segment is just fine with you...

    So, as much as you pretend to dislike government, you're really a lover of government, aren't you? Actually, you're quite LIBERAL in that regard!

    excon
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #10

    Oct 6, 2009, 11:43 AM

    Actually, I'd prefer to be doing the interrogating myself. But I don't think the government is going to let me do it. So I have to trust THEM to do it. I don't have a choice in the matter.

    More seriously, though...

    ... the other part of the argument, as I have pointed out in the past, is that the Constitution specifically gives the government the power and responsibility to run wars, maintain security and keep the peace... as well as to maintain roadways, infrastructure, the mail system, etc.

    The Constitution does NOT give the government the power to be a nanny state, determine how much people can be paid for their work, etc.

    So yes, I support the parts of the Government that are mandated by the Constitution, and I am against the parts of the government that are NOT mandated by the Constitution.

    So yes, I support the military, the police, the CIA and the FBI, while being against Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the NEA and any other non-constitutional part of the government.

    You do remember the Constitution, don't you?

    Probably not.

    That's OK, I'll keep reminding you.

    Elliot
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #11

    Oct 6, 2009, 02:14 PM

    Probably the snitch who turned in this lady ran a day care center and was miffed that she was losing money! Betcha!

    Years ago, when child snatchers were not rife in America, you could leave your kids at bus stops by themselves, or leave them to come home to an empty house after school. Now, the whole world has changed. Child snatching is rife, children get snatched on their way to and from school all the time, and children get taken from their own yards in broad daylight! At least that lady was trying to do something in her own neighborhood. I laud her for that. Too bad more responsible mothers aren't doing the same thing. Do you have any idea just how much it costs to park at kid at daycare for before school and after school care? Plenty. That's how much. If both parents have to go to work just to make ends meet at home that extra "park the kids" money certainly adds up especially if you have more than one kid to "park". Try making a living when all your money goes for "parking fees" each week!!
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #12

    Oct 7, 2009, 10:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by twinkiedooter View Post
    Probably the snitch who turned in this lady ran a day care center and was miffed that she was losing money!! Betcha!!

    Years ago, when child snatchers were not rife in America, you could leave your kids at bus stops by themselves, or leave them to come home to an empty house after school. Now, the whole world has changed. Child snatching is rife, children get snatched on their way to and from school all the time, and children get taken from their own yards in broad daylight!! At least that lady was trying to do something in her own neighborhood. I laud her for that. Too bad more responsible mothers aren't doing the same thing. Do you have any idea just how much it costs to park at kid at daycare for before school and after school care? Plenty. That's how much. If both parents have to go to work just to make ends meet at home that extra "park the kids" money certainly adds up especially if you have more than one kid to "park". Try making a living when all your money goes for "parking fees" each week!!!
    Yep. And then the government, which claims to be for the "little guy" goes and does something stupid like this to make it harder for the little guy to get by.

    BTW, why have you chosen Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez (Sean Connery's character in The Highlander movies) as your avatar? Good picture, but does it have any significance?

    Elliot
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #13

    Oct 7, 2009, 08:21 PM
    Here's a thought, you could switch these people to regulating health care, now they would really do a good job providing they had good regulations, after all what it takes is someone with no imagination?
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #14

    Oct 8, 2009, 07:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    here's a thought, you could switch these people to regulating health care, now they would really do a good job providing they had good regulations, afterall what it takes is someone with no imagination?
    Yep... healthcare as run by people with the competence of the DMV, the empathy of the IRS, and the financial management skills of the USPS.

    Great idea, Clete.
    galveston's Avatar
    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #15

    Oct 9, 2009, 04:43 PM

    May I throw something else into this mix? We are talking about govt, right?

    I don't think it is possible for the leftists to be so stupid as to destroy this country as a free prosperous country.

    So I have to conclude that what they are doing is deliberate and planned.

    Now they have an ally in the White House, who has appointed these flaming red revolutionaries of the 60's to positions of power in his administration.

    This is no accident either.

    Consider the fact that the people most eager to destroy us (western civilization) are Muslims. (Not every Muslim, of course!)

    What better way than to have one of their own in the WH?

    I think Obama's conversion to Christianity was contrived to make his political aspirations possible.

    After all, he has lied about so many other things, why should we believe him on this subject?

    Did not Khadafy all him "our son"? And he is not alone among Muslims who think Obama is one of them.

    I know it is politically incorrect to say this, but then, I have never been PC anyway.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,024, Reputation: 5431
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    #16

    Oct 9, 2009, 04:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by twinkiedooter View Post
    children get taken from their own yards in broad daylight!!
    Not nearly as often as you think...

    I suspect the mom was watching the kids to protect them from each other, not from stranger danger.
    chrisbosco's Avatar
    chrisbosco Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #17

    Oct 10, 2009, 11:50 PM
    Wolverine,
    Let me understand your position. You agree that the government has.. "the power and responsibility to run wars, maintain security and keep the peace... as well as to maintain roadways, infrastructure, the mail system, etc." but you don NOT believe the government (BY and FOR the PEOPLE - remember that, in the Constitution?) should be used to ensure the physical health of its citizens, protect the environment they live in, protect them from the unscrupulous manipulation of the powerful for their own gain, or provide for them an equitable means of educating their children?
    In your world, I guess we should all "be responsible" for our own needs, and the government should stay out of our lives - unless of course, its to enable those of us with power to keep and defend the privileges of that power at the expense of the weak. That about sum it up?

    What a guy...
    ________________________________________________

    I'd love to meet one person who expects others to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" who has actually done it..
    chrisbosco's Avatar
    chrisbosco Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #18

    Oct 10, 2009, 11:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    May I throw something else into this mix? We are talking about govt, right?

    I don't think it is possible for the leftists to be so stupid as to destroy this country as a free prosperous country.

    So I have to conclude that what they are doing is deliberate and planned.

    Now they have an ally in the White House, who has appointed these flaming red revolutionaries of the 60's to positions of power in his administration.

    This is no accident either.

    Consider the fact that the people most eager to destroy us (western civilization) are Muslims. (Not every Muslim, of course!)

    What better way than to have one of their own in the WH?

    I think Obama's conversion to Christianity was contrived to make his political aspirations possible.

    After all, he has lied about so many other things, why should we believe him on this subject?

    Did not Khadafy all him "our son"? And he is not alone among Muslims who think Obama is one of them.

    I know it is politically incorrect to say this, but then, I have never been pc anyway.

    Galveston,

    You shouldn't worry about being politically correct, you should worry about being an idiot!

    Make the people who tell you this crap PROVE IT! Until you do you will continue to look like a fool when you repeat it. You don't realize that the rest of us know the difference!
    chrisbosco's Avatar
    chrisbosco Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #19

    Oct 11, 2009, 12:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Ahhh... our ever-efficient government strikes again.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090929/..._backlash_mich



    A couple of questions.

    1) Who is the schmuck that complained that his neighbor was watching other people's kids? I want to find that idiot and just smack him/her upside the head.

    2) Seeing this example of how government bureaucrats seem to be able to only operate according to "stadard procedure" and can't seem to think for themselves, do we really want that type of bureaucrat in charge of any part of our lives, much less making "decisions" about our health care? Seems to me that government bureaucrats have their common sense and critical thinking skills removed upon beginning employment within the government.

    Comments?
    It's easy to take a ridiculous example like this and make hay out of it, but maybe we should think about why these rules and regulations everyone hates so much are made in the first place. What if that woman watching those children was not a personal friend of the kids' moms, but just some resident looking to make a few bucks watching the kids. The kids moms are stressed trying to get to their jobs to pay the adjustable rate mortgage they were sold by the friendly mortgage broker that just reset at 18%, so they're grateful to know this lady will watch their kids. And suppose that woman had a pervert for a husband/son/cousin/uncle/boyfriend.. And suppose the big, bad government got a call about THAT woman? Would you criticize them for making sure the kids were in the company of safe adults when not with their parents? Or would you criticize them for NOT looking into the identities of this "kid-watchers" after you see the report on the local news about the pervert relative of the nice lady who watches the kids...
    It's like everyone who hates the cops... until they hear a noise in their backyard! Or the IRS, until their refund check comes. Or the "government," until they're 65 and need medical care.
    Criticize, but be fair...
    chrisbosco's Avatar
    chrisbosco Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #20

    Oct 11, 2009, 12:17 AM

    'night all.

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