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speechlesstx · Dec 12, 2008, 05:57 AM

Here's one for you, ex. This seems to be happening more and more... to diabetics

An Oklahoma driver ended up on the wrong side of a police taser because a medical condition left him helpless.

El Reno police officers approached a vehicle that had spun-out on the interstate. Inside was a man who they thought was drunk or on drugs.
The man was wrestled out of his truck on Interstate 40 because he wasn't cooperating with police. Moments later police tazed the man.

After several attempts officers were finally able to get the combative man into custody. What they don't realize is the 53-year-old wasn't drunk or on drugs. He's was in severe diabetic shock. In fact, his blood sugar level at the time was 11.

Experts say a person suffering from diabetic shock will often show signs or symptoms closely related to somebody who's intoxicated. That can include confusion, aggression, shaking, sweating and disorientation.

"Eleven is pretty low blood sugar and he would not be able to process those commands coming from the officers," explained Dr. Mary Ann Bauman.

Police Chief Ken Brown said his officers had no way of knowing the man who was resisting arrest was in need of medical attention. "His actions, his demeanor, his lack to communicate led the officers to believe he was under the influence of intoxicants or narcotics."

Once police realized what was really happening, they called an ambulance and the man was rushed to the hospital. It was there police finally saw his medical alert necklace hidden under layers of clothing.

"Unfortunately, from the officers' aspect, they feel extremely bad after they learned that it in fact was a medical need and not someone who was under the influence of an intoxicant, drug or alcohol," Brown said.

I watched the video and I really have to ask if that was necessary. I understand drunks can be pretty aggressive but I'm beginning to think the cops may be getting a little too taser-happy.

N0help4u · Dec 12, 2008, 06:37 AM

I have seen and heard many stories like this. Most of them are undue force but likely many can't be proven.
I have noticed that younger cops want to solve everything with force and 'their authority.' Simply because they are behind the badge they become arrogant and belligerent. Older cops more often have more better negotiating skills and know how to defuse things.
Someone once said they believe the younger cops are more like that because they no longer have as strict requirements for physical strength so you sort of have a little chihuahua that is up against a pit bull so that is what they revert to.

tomder55 · Dec 12, 2008, 07:29 AM

I've seen people in diabetic shock before . It is a stretch to make a case that they act like a threat needing a dose of compliance enhancement. The people I saw did not imitate aggressive drunks in any way. A piece of sugar candy would better combat a diabetic seizure than a taser.

If police depts do not train the officers to determine the difference between roudy drunken behavior and a diabetic seizure then they need to start immediately.

I would also like to see the protocol of the dept to the proper use of tasers. Tasers can be useful tools as alternatives to lethal force ;but the guidelines should stipulate that with no ambiguity .

JudyKayTee · Dec 12, 2008, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I've seen people in diabetic shock before . It is a stretch to make a case that they act like a threat needing a dose of compliance enhancement. The people I saw did not imitate aggressive drunks in any way. A piece of sugar candy would better combat a diabetic seizure than a taser.

If police depts do not train the officers to determine the difference between roudy drunken behavior and a diabetic fit then they need to start immediately.

I would also like to see the protocol of the dept to the proper use of tasers. Tasers can be useful tools as alternatives to lethal force ;but the guidlines should stipulate that with no ambiguity .

This is a horrifying article - no question but got to somewhat disagree - my husband was a brittle diabetic. He was a very large man, over 6'2", over 250 pounds, mild mannered, quiet, and when he went into shock I could always tell because he became somewhat loud, confused and very argumentative. He did collapse at a public event and they did think he was intoxicated - he went down on his knees and the Police came running and roughed him up somewhat trying to get him up before I got between them and him. In fact, I got pushed out of the way when I first tried to intervene.

I'm sure his size was a factor in the way the Police reacted. I never had a problem with him, never, no matter how badly in shock he was, but I can see that he could appear to be threatening if you didn't know the situation. I always carried fast acting insulin and glucose tablets (as did he) and he carried a card in his wallet identifying him as a diabetic. Would they have seen it? Not until after they were through roughing him up.

His Doctor preached at him all the time that he should wear a medic alert bracelet but he refused to do so. I find it irresponsible for people with life threatening medical problems not to wear a bracelet but he held his ground and what's a person to do - ?

I'm sure you meant no offense but I find the word "fit" somewhat offensive - they are seizures (although I do appreciate that "fit" is very often used instead of "seizure." It just seems sort of dismissive to me).

And my husband died of diabetic complications - the Police are lucky that this poor guy didn't.

asking · Dec 12, 2008, 08:03 AM

I think the police are taser happy. I don't see any reason they should use them at all.

I chalk it up to cowardice. They want a way of controlling people where they don't have to risk any chance of getting bruised or roughed up themselves.

The thing is even if the guy was drunk, it's not clear to me why he should have been tasered. If the ambulance guys can deal with a person in a diabetic shock without using tasers, why can't the cops? Same question for your average drunk. I don't think there's any excuse for tasering any unarmed person, no matter how "uncooperative" they are. It's a cop's job to deal with people who sometimes don't do what they are told.

tomder55 · Dec 12, 2008, 08:03 AM

I will amend it ,and defer to your experience as mine have been limitted .

JudyKayTee · Dec 12, 2008, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I will amend it ,and defer to your experience as mine have been limitted .

No problem - didn't mean to post as a correction, more a clarification. I'm sure other people who are diabetic or are married to people who are diabetics have very different experiences. I just posted mine.

And as far as correcting anything, I went out to dinner and made a comment that I enjoy Oriental food. Waiter corrected me. The politically correct word is Asian. Who knew? I certainly didn't.

asking · Dec 12, 2008, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

The politically correct word is Asian. Who knew? I certainly didn't.

Since I live at ground zero for political correctness, I've known this for decades. I grew up a few blocks from San Francisco Chinatown, so I've sometimes made reference to "Chinese friends" and had people tell me that I should say "Asian," because--they say-- I don't know if my classmates were Chinese American. Well, as a matter of fact, I did know they were Chinese--in many cases I knew what part of China their families were from. I even had someone argue with me and tell me my friends could have been Japanese or Korean (so I should say "Asian.") Because they don't know the difference, they assume no one else does. I still say Chinese when I mean Chinese.

There are all kinds of doctrinaire people in the world. Political correctness is just one version of it. All the same, I do respect that certain words have bad associations and feel demeaning to people. When I was a kid "oriental" was acceptable, but it isn't any more, just like you shouldn't call African Americans "n*****s," women "b****es," or cops "pigs."

tomder55 · Dec 12, 2008, 08:44 AM

I on the other hand consider PC a bane .

speechlesstx · Dec 12, 2008, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I on the other hand consider PC a bane .

And yet, it apparently is PC to tell people religion "enslaves" their minds... but I digress. :D

I just call it what it is, Chinese, Thai, Japanese... but I don't eat at those Asian "fusion" places.

Back to tasers though, this guy was wearing a medic alert necklace, perhaps the officers could have been more diligent in checking for one before dragging the guy of his truck and tasering him... at the least.

JudyKayTee · Dec 12, 2008, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And yet, it apparently is PC to tell people religion "enslaves" their minds...but I digress. :D

I just call it what it is, Chinese, Thai, Japanese...but I don't eat at those Asian "fusion" places.

Back to tasers though, this guy was wearing a medic alert necklace, perhaps the officers could have been more diligent in checking for one before dragging the guy of his truck and tasering him...at the least.

Another good argument for medic alert bracelets - my husband's Doctors always stressed bracelet, not necklace.

All the way around a terrible situation - wonder what the standard is for Police Officers in these situations? How much checking do they do or was this a knee-jerk reaction?

I can never believe that the Police ask, "Do you want me to taser you?" and then taser the person. Would anyone is total control say, "Yes"? If they do say, "Yes," or don't respond - assume there's a medical problem.

On a side note - NY is attempting to get diabetes classified as one of the medical conditions (such as cardiac problems) which will require a physical and a note from a Physician in order to get a drivers license issued or renewed. MV wants to know if the diabetes is controlled.

In 2008 I investigated 3 accidents involving a driver going into diabetic shock.

tomder55 · Dec 12, 2008, 09:38 AM

Of course here in NY we have a more fundamental problem . Police use of broomsticks.

JudyKayTee · Dec 12, 2008, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

of course here in NY we have a more fundamental problem . Police use of broomsticks.

Right - I'm also in NY. Not that the broomstick problem isn't bad enough I heard the one Supervisor interviewed and he said that the prisoner was resisting arrest!

As if that's cause to - well, you know.

speechlesstx · Dec 12, 2008, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

of course here in NY we have a more fundamental problem . Police use of broomsticks.

Ouch. That's just sick.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 12, 2008, 01:47 PM

Yes, and you get a drunk with a med alert and a officer gets hurt, and to be honest even a person like this, if they had spun out and killed someone walking on the road, or driving,

Or fighting the officer and made the officer fall into traffic, a good friend of mine in East Point GA, was fighting a person on the side of the road and was thrown into traffic and killed.

The safety of the person, and the officers safety are two important issues.

Since the tazer does lilttle harm I see no problem in its use to be on the safe said before a officer is serously hurt.

And the Tazer is a lot, ( a lot ) better than the normal other option, pepper spray and a night stick ( baton) that you hit the subject with till they go down or comply.

tomder55 · Dec 12, 2008, 03:43 PM

I still want to see the protocol for it's use by the dept. Tasers are becoming the new toys for boys and there has to be standard guidelines for their use.

jillianleab · Dec 12, 2008, 04:30 PM

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

Years ago, when my dad was alive, his protein levels got all out-of-whack, which caused him to go "crazy". He would yell, stumble around, and was nonsensical. For someone who didn't know any better, you'd think he was on drugs. When he got like this the only option was to take him to the hospital, only this one time, he didn't want to go. We had to call 911, and a slew of flashing lights came to help. The officers who responded stood next to each other (as my dad was laying on the floor) discussing how they could tackle him, force him over and handcuff him, because they 'didn't have time for this'. One spent the entire time with his hand on his gun. I ordered them out of the room.

I've known a lot of cops (my cousin used to be a crime reporter). Some are great, some get drunk on the power of a blue suit and shiny badge.

JudyKayTee · Dec 12, 2008, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by jillianleab

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

Years ago, when my dad was alive, his protein levels got all out-of-whack, which caused him to go "crazy". He would yell, stumble around, and was nonsensical. For someone who didn't know any better, you'd think he was on drugs. When he got like this the only option was to take him to the hospital, only this one time, he didn't want to go. We had to call 911, and a slew of flashing lights came to help. The officers who responded stood next to each other (as my dad was laying on the floor) discussing how they could tackle him, force him over and handcuff him, because they 'didn't have time for this'. One spent the entire time with his hand on his gun. I ordered them out of the room.

I've known a lot of cops (my cousin used to be a crime reporter). Some are great, some get drunk on the power of a blue suit and shiny badge.

I guess we were always lucky - no matter how much my husband was in shock, no matter how low - or high - his sugar he went, no matter what, he ALWAYS heard me. I got called into recovery rooms when he went bad and was fighting with the health care providers and he always listened to me, heard me, never gave me a hard time.

How awful for your family and how grateful I am that we never went through this.

And, yes, when it's a matter of acting right now for purposes of public safety, how are the Police to know - ?

jillianleab · Dec 12, 2008, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I guess we were always lucky - no matter how much my husband was in shock, no matter how low - or high - his sugar he went, no matter what, he ALWAYS heard me. I got called into recovery rooms when he went bad and was fighting with the health care providers and he always listened to me, heard me, never gave me a hard time.

How awful for your family and how grateful I am that we never went through this.

Thanks, Judy. My dad could hear us, he was just stubborn and didn't want to listen! :) He was also confused when he was in such a state, which made him more stubborn. He was diabetic too, so we experienced the low blood sugar episodes as well. Top all of that off with brain damage, and well... let's just say he could be a handfull.

And, yes, when it's a matter of acting right now for purposes of public safety, how are the Police to know - ?

I don't think in every case they can know, but I imagine there are indicators they could be trained to look for to determine if they are dealing with a medical problem or drug-related issue. If they are currently trained on these indicators, maybe they need to pay more attention in class.

JudyKayTee · Dec 12, 2008, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by jillianleab

Thanks, Judy. My dad could hear us, he was just stubborn and didn't want to listen! :) He was also confused when he was in such a state, which made him more stubborn. He was diabetic too, so we experienced the low blood sugar episodes as well. Top all of that off with brain damage, and well... let's just say he could be a handfull.

I don't think in every case they can know, but I imagine there are indicators they could be trained to look for to determine if they are dealing with a medical problem or drug-related issue. If they are currently trained on these indicators, maybe they need to pay more attention in class.

Would my father have paid any attention to me? Probably not. But husbands - you can smother them in their sleep and they realize that so they hear your voice.

Bracelets - wear a medic alert bracelet. (As you can see, I'm still preaching.)