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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #41

    Feb 23, 2011, 07:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The alternatives is huge layoffs.
    Hello again, tom:

    That's the threat... Let's see if he has the balls to carry it out.. I'm ready for this fight.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #42

    Feb 23, 2011, 08:21 AM

    It happened this year in NY... 900 layoffs . Patterson said he had to because the unions would not budge.Cuomo agrees .
    The difference is that it was a Dem Guv. So the unions didn't demonstrate like they have been doing in Wisconsin .
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #43

    Feb 23, 2011, 08:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It happened this year in NY ...900 layoffs .
    Hello again, tom:

    We have TWO things going on here. What happens, and what is PERCEIVED to have happened. The layoffs in NY happened OUT of the glare that Wisconsin is under. Governor Walker picked this fight. Most governors would have taken what the union gave him, called it a victory, and walked away...

    But, nooooo... THIS governor has a different agenda. He wants to bust the unions. Should he do so, the charge will be taken up by every right wing Governor in the country, and the Democrats will be devastated. So, this is about politics - not jobs.

    I don't know what it means, but Mitch Daniels and Rick Scott, two right wing governors, are backing away from Walker.

    You and I will never agree about this stuff - but we DO agree about "uncertainty". You finally copped to having lots of it over your lifetime.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #44

    Feb 23, 2011, 11:20 AM

    I had to this point been an early supporter of Mitch Daniels .
    It is a sign of weakness for him to cave on this because the Dems decided to go the undemocratic route and bug out of town.
    I think a better solution is to conduct business without them if they chose to be absent . If the Dems can pull this stunt once
    ,what's to prevent them from doing it over and over ?

    At CPAC Daniels called for a 'truce' yada yada . Now we know 'truce' means 'capitulation'.
    That is the ONLY reason why Daniels "backed away" . It has nothing to do with his position. He still wants the 'right to work' law .But he's willing to let the Dems dictate the agenda.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #45

    Feb 23, 2011, 11:36 AM

    You still have to pay laid off workers, maybe not as much but unemployment is better than nothing. Oh and you still pay for there full insurance benefit too. So how much of a savings are layoffs?

    In addition, IF, the Wisconsin Governor gets his whole agenda through, as is then union workers still don't have to accept it and can under breach of contract can lawfully strike state wide. How much do you think THAT would cost the state??

    Another thing we all have overlooked when we talk about fiscal responsibility, is a negotiated settlement that include pensions, and health insurance is often reached IN LIEU of increased wages.

    Plus another part of Walkers bill is the right to contact our government functions like power companies and utilities without an open bid process, which is the law now, and we no who gets contracts without having to be the lowest bidder, just look at his campaign contributions list and see who benefits from that little gem.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #46

    Feb 23, 2011, 11:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    If the Dems can pull this stunt once, what's to prevent them from doing it over and over ?
    Hello again, tom:

    I don't know. What's to prevent the Republicans from doing the same thing over and over again?? I'll tell you what'll prevent them - that's when the underpinnings of Walkers strategy begin to fall apart. It looks like that's happening now. It looks like his fellow governors are abandoning him. He's all alone. Maybe he can tough it out... I don't think so, though.

    If the overreach of Democrats on health care ignited the Tea Party movement, the attempted destruction of the labor movement might do the same thing for the left. Nobody expected the Democrats to react the way they did.

    excon
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #47

    Feb 23, 2011, 01:03 PM

    The Democrats better remember... if they are going to act like this and defend it... they lose the right to whine and complain if the republicans ever do it down the road.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #48

    Feb 23, 2011, 01:37 PM

    All politicians do is whine and complain, its in their job description. Just a side note, the Governor of Indiana is telling his legislature to back off trying to get the PRIVATE sector unions to give up their rights to collective bargaining. Boy, one little recession and we have to go all the way back to slavery. What's up with these Republicans.

    Like the Wisconsin Dem's the Indiana Dem's ran to Illinois. What the heck is in Illinois??
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #49

    Feb 23, 2011, 01:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    All politicians do is whine and complain, its in their job description.
    Total agreement with you there.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #50

    Feb 24, 2011, 04:58 AM
    all government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public-personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people.
    Franklin Roosevelt
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #51

    Feb 25, 2011, 04:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    The Democrats better remember....if they are going to act like this and defend it...they lose the right to whine and complain if the republicans ever do it down the road.
    Hello again, smoothy:

    You have a short memory... That, or you don't understand Roberts Rules of Order.. It's OK, that's why I'm here.

    In the senate, the rules say they need 60 votes to pass a bill. The Republicans took advantage of that rule a bunch of times to BLOCK legislation they didn't like... I didn't hear a squawk from you then...

    One of the rules in the Wisconsin legislature, is the senate needs a quorum in order to pass a bill. The Democrats are taking advantage of THAT rule to BLOCK legislation they don't like.

    Why is it OK for the Republicans to use the rules, but the Democrats can't?

    excon
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #52

    Feb 25, 2011, 05:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    You have a short memory... That, or you don't understand Roberts Rules of Order.. It's ok, that's why I'm here.

    In the senate, the rules say they need 60 votes to pass a bill. The Republicans took advantage of that rule a bunch of times to BLOCK legislation they didn't like... I didn't hear a squawk from you then...

    One of the rules in the Wisconsin legislature, is the senate needs a quorum in order to pass a bill. The Democrats are taking advantage of THAT rule to BLOCK legislation they don't like. But, I'm hearing plenty from you this time...

    Why is it OK for the Republicans to use the rules, but the Democrats can't??

    excon
    Funny how I heard them bellyaching just the other day about the FEDERAL budget... and the brain damaged witch (don't remember which one but she was a democrat) was bellyaching saying the republicans we effectively saying its "our way or the highway"

    Gee... could she have Altzheimers... I seem to remember that's EXACTLY what the Democrats did the last two years. SPECIFICALLY on Obama care where they did it behind closed doors and never even allowed the Republicans to even attend.


    Like I said... you can't have it both ways... if you want to argue its fine for you to do it... you can't complain the next time the other side does the same thing.


    Personally... I think the Democrats in Wisconsin who left the state are the most immature bunch of babies I have seen outside of a daycare center.

    If any of us refused to go to work with no valid excuse... we would be fired... and rightfully so. Lock them up... deraliction of duty... or misuse of taxpayer money.

    THey were paid to do their job... not barhop in Illinois.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #53

    Feb 27, 2011, 10:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    If any of us refused to go to work with no valid excuse...we would be fired.....and rightfully so. Lock them up....deraliction of duty...or misuse of taxpayer money.

    They were paid to do their job....not barhop in Illinois.
    Hello again, smoothy:

    In my view, they ARE DOING their job. Who told YOU what a senator is supposed to do? Do you have the written job description?? If you think they're PAID to sit there, we could get boobs to do that. Nope. That's NOT a senators job. His job is to REPRESENT his constituency. By using the RULES to BLOCK legislation their constituency DOESN'T like, IS doing their job - and doing it WELL. That IS what their job IS. Their job is nothing OTHER than that.

    Yes, leaving the state IS a drastic method. So, change the rule. Plus, one could argue, and I AM making that argument, that filibustering legislation a party doesn't like, even though that party is the MINORITY party, IS a drastic method.

    But, the RULES are the RULES, and what's good for the goose, and all that crap...

    So, instead of the governor using the rules to shove legislation up the a$$ of his public (which the majority of his public doesn't want), these senators are using the rules to shove it up the governors a$$, and I LOVE it.

    excon
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #54

    Feb 27, 2011, 11:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, smoothy:

    Do you have the written job description??? excon
    Just for fun ;)



    Job Description of a US Senator | eHow.com

    Job Description of a State Senator | eHow.com
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #55

    Feb 27, 2011, 02:37 PM
    So no qualifications then eh?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #56

    Feb 28, 2011, 09:31 AM

    Hello again:

    It now appears that the Democrats have WON. They used the RULES to achieve what they wanted, and there AIN'T nothing wrong with that... In fact, there's everything GOOD about that... I don't know why you think politics has to be done YOUR way. You just don't like it when you get snookered...

    Oh, what did they achieve?? At least ONE moderate Republican and possibly two others are going to vote with the Democrats when they come back, and the bill will be defeated.

    Yes, this is a BIG victory for the left, and a HUGE defeat for the right wingers... Bummer for you.

    excon
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #57

    Feb 28, 2011, 09:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again:

    It now appears that the Democrats have WON. They used the RULES to achieve what they wanted, and there AIN'T nothing wrong with that... In fact, there's everything GOOD about that.... I dunno why you think politics has to be done YOUR way. You just don't like it when you get snookered...

    Oh, what did they achieve??? At least ONE moderate Republican and possibly two others are going to vote with the Democrats when the come back, and the bill will be defeated.

    Yes, this is a BIG victory for the left, and a HUGE defeat for the right wingers... Bummer for you.

    excon
    Wait until the Republicans pull this (and they should now), and does anyone want to take bets when that happens you are going to be complaining about it then?
    Synnen's Avatar
    Synnen Posts: 7,927, Reputation: 2443
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    #58

    Feb 28, 2011, 10:33 AM

    Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

    I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

    My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

    I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

    THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.ns...S?OpenDocument

    And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

    And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

    Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #59

    Feb 28, 2011, 10:38 AM
    I thought this was interesting:
    http://cdn.other98.com/wp-content/up...lker-final.jpg
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #60

    Feb 28, 2011, 10:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Synnen View Post
    Do any of you actually LIVE in WI, or know anyone there?

    I live across the border in Minneapolis, and grew up there--I have family all over the state.

    My Facebook page is FILLED with Wisconsinites.

    I have not seen a SINGLE person from Wisconsin that wasn't working for big business (who, by the way, got huge tax cuts in a "budget emergency").

    THIS article explains how the pension plan in WI really works tax.com: Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?

    And frankly--every single person in WI I've talked to is willing to pay more taxes to keep the education system one of the best in the country.

    And I was very Republican when all this started, and thought Walker was doing a good thing.

    Now, after everything I've read and heard---I think the man is an idiot, and he'll be lucky to have his job after all of the dust settles.
    Actually I did... they lived in Madison... but the one I knew best is doing a life sentence right now in the Federal prison system. Long story... made the national news a few years back.

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