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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 965, Reputation: 55
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    #1

    Oct 8, 2021, 02:10 PM
    Are Anti-Vaxxers Selfish People?
    The following answer is from another website. I don't know how many interviews like this one I've seen on TV. An odd correlation is that they often tend to be Trump cultists. (Maybe not so odd.....)

    Answer:

    Yes, and mind numbingly stupid. I was actually watching open mouthed an interview yesterday of two nurses who would rather lose their jobs than vaccinate.

    They both were asking for religious exemptions. They were Catholic. But the pope had the vaccination and is encouraging Catholics to get it.

    One nurse said, "Well, the pope was elected, he’s a hypocrite and he’s not following the Bible."

    Huh? This woman knows more about the Bible than the Pope! Just like she knows more about infectious disease than doctors and researchers.

    The other woman couldn’t answer a straight question, she wanted to talk about how the statistics were fake, how people who had brain cancer were being listed as dying of cancer. And it was an international conspiracy to keep the real numbers hidden.

    She apparently doesn’t know there’s an immediate cause of death and a contributory cause and both are put on the death certificate: immediate-pneomonia, contributory-liver cancer. Immediate-covid, contributory-brain cancer.

    She also felt betrayed because at the beginning of the pandemic, nurses were heroes and now she’s being marginalized.

    But she’s never going to give up speaking the truth! She wants her children and grandchildren to know she fought. She had tears in her eyes and her voice trembled.

    Her grandchildren are likely to be embarrassed and ashamed of her and wish that interview had never been shown on national news.


    The above is one of the milder responses of anti-vaxxers. Many are truly bizarre - from aliens placing chips in our bodies with the vaccine to the vaccine being created by Bill Gates so he could take over the world.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #2

    Oct 8, 2021, 07:54 PM
    Pretty tame compared to what AOC has said.

    1. Wanted to do away with ICE.
    2. Wanted to do away with DHS.
    3. She once tweeted, "It is well past time we eliminate the Electoral College, a shadow of slavery’s power on America today that undermines our nation as a democratic republic,” Huh? What does the electoral college have to do with slavery?
    4. Upon losing the Amazon headquarters, $27 billion in taxes and 25 ,000 jobs, AOC tweeted, ”Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, every day New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate green, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world.” So losing jobs is a good thing?
    5. AOC sad, “Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. Unemployment is low because people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and can barely feed their family.” Politifact corrected her outrageous claims. The average number of hours worked in the private sector has been about 34.5 hours a week since 2006,
    6. She exhibited her knowledge of government. “If we work our butts off to make sure that we take back all three chambers of Congress – rather, all three chambers of government: the presidency, the Senate, and the House,” AOC said in a conference call to a political action committee.
    7. AOC predicted, “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change, and your biggest issue is, your, your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?” If she can find someone else to believe that, that will make two people on the earth who do.

    Not sure why we worry about a few anti-vaxxers exercising their freedom when a liberal dem like AOC is actually engaged in making laws.

    https://arizonadailyindependent.com/...s-stupid-does/
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #3

    Oct 9, 2021, 04:03 AM
    There are multiple reasons why people are reluctant to take the covid vaccine To lump them into a generalization as selfish is wrong and unpersuasive . It is equally wrong to generalize about their politics. As a percent of the population Blacks and Hispanics lag behind whites in the population vaxxed. So is it safe to conclude that the unvaxxed minorities are "Trump cultists " (whatever than means ) ?


    I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment ,disproportionately target minorities also .


    Criticizing , blaming, punishing and shaming will not help if your goal is to get more people vaccinated . Forget far out reasoning like alien probes etc . That is an extremely small group of those who resist the covid vax. The rest have reasoned concerns , Does it make sense that someone would want to avoid putting unknown chemicals in their body? Is it reasonable not to fully trust the pharmaceutical industry? Isn't it true that we have only short term data on the effects and side effects of the vaccines, if only because the trials began less than two years ago. We are learning new things every day about the long term effects of having covid, So it is reasonable to have concerns about the vax side effects .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #4

    Oct 9, 2021, 05:14 AM
    Otherwise healthy people under fifty have figured out that their level of risk is extremely low. "My body, my choice." They put no one at risk but themselves, so I don't know why it's anyone's business but their own.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 965, Reputation: 55
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    #5

    Oct 9, 2021, 08:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    There are multiple reasons why people are reluctant to take the covid vaccine To lump them into a generalization as selfish is wrong and unpersuasive .
    You're right. My examples, admittedly far out, were hyperbolic to demonstrate a larger point. The bulk of anti-vaxxers are ill-informed and reluctant to learn. Blacks are a special case.

    Putting unknown chemicals in your body is pretty much what Trump suggested early on. Based on video interviews and other statistics (which I won't cite since you won't read them), I maintain that Trump cultists are the largest anti-vax demographic. They are a cult since they follow Trump no matter what he does or says - it is a blind allegiance to a man who is clearly unhinged - a madman. That is what a cult is.

    I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment disproportionately target minorities also
    That may be true, but what is the alternative?

    Criticizing , blaming, punishing and shaming will not help if your goal is to get more people vaccinated
    Treating anti-vaxxers as intelligent adults has not worked. They are a danger to themselves and, more importantly, to others including their own friends and families. Blaming/punishing/shaming has worked better than persuasion.

    Is it reasonable not to fully trust the pharmaceutical industry? Isn't it true that we have only short term data on the effects and side effects of the vaccines, if only because the trials began less than two years ago.
    It is far more reasonable to trust the science than not to. A great amount of information is now available based on the nearly 4 BILLION people who have been vaccinated. There has been nothing like it in history.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #6

    Oct 9, 2021, 11:27 AM
    I maintain that Trump cultists are the largest anti-vax demographic. They are a cult since they follow Trump no matter what he does or says - it is a blind allegiance to a man who is clearly unhinged - a madman. That is what a cult is.
    And yet it was Trump who fast tracked getting the vax to the public . As I recall it was the Dem politicians that were demagoguing the vaccine including VP Kam the Sham who said she would not get vaxxed because it was a Trump deal ... talk about bizarro reasoning !

    I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment disproportionately target minorities also


    That may be true, but what is the alternative?
    No government mandates .

    Blaming/punishing/shaming has worked better than persuasion.
    Speaking for myself ,I did not get vaxxed until I had a series of discussions with a doctor who was not a traditional practitioner and applies alternate medical care . None of the above methods of "persuasion " would have worked on me . I came from the pharmaceutical industry and know that not everything is for the best scientific reason.

    I give you Merck as example A . They have a perfectly good therapeutic drug on the market that is inexpensive and available as a covid anti-viral treatment .They have actively suppressed it's use so they could fast track their new much more expensive covid drug that they also happen to have a $1.2 billion agreement with the government to supply.

    I have seen NDAs approved after FDA officials were bribed . The doctor I spoke of does not have a shelf full of samples given to him by industry detail people to push on his patients . The industry spends an average of $20,000 per doctor annually marketing drugs to them . That included the samples I mentioned ,and gifts and perks for scripting the drug to patients . And I've only mentions a few of the institutional corruption practices . So someone like me may be a skeptic . I'm sure those health care providers you dismiss as kooks have similar such tales .

    There has been nothing like it in history.
    exactly
    The incidents of drugs being rushed to the market only later to be recalled is extensive . I don't have to go as far back as the thalidomide disaster . I'm talking relatively recent examples
    Valdecoxib lasted about 4 years .It is an anti-inflammatory. Then it was recalled because it was causing heart attack, and stroke ,and deaths and a slew of other side effects .
    Pemoline used to treat ADHD , after 5 years recalled because it caused liver damage
    Vioxx another anti-inflammatory recalled because it caused heart attacks . It was given to over 20 million patients .
    Accutane was given to treat acne . It was recalled because it caused birth defects ;miscarriages premature deaths and suicides .
    Meridia an appetite suppressant . Recalled because heart attacks and strokes .
    Rezulin used to treat diabetes . Recalled because it caused liver failure and death.
    Raptiva used to treat psoriasis . Recalled because it damaged the brain and neverous system .

    I became convinced it is worth the risk . I don't blame those who take a different view .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #7

    Oct 9, 2021, 12:19 PM
    That may be true, but what is the alternative?


    No government mandates .
    Absolutely true. Isn't it amazing that acts which result in clear discrimination against minorities are simply in the "That may be true," category when being orchestrated by liberal dems? No big deal!
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 965, Reputation: 55
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    #8

    Oct 9, 2021, 02:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    And yet it was Trump who fast tracked getting the vax to the public
    Only after far too long of dissing the whole Covid-19 situation causing hundreds of thousands of deaths by his inaction.

    As I recall it was the Dem politicians that were demagoguing the vaccine including VP Kam the Sham who said she would not get vaxxed because it was a Trump deal ... talk about bizarro reasoning !
    Your recollection is wrong! The Dems never demagogued the vaccine and Harris said, accurately after Trump's bizarro statements re COVID, that she would never take a TRUMP vaccine. Neither would I - especially one filled with fish tank cleaner or disinfectant. The bizarro is all Trump's who finally DID take the approved vaccine and kept it a secret.

    No government mandates
    A solution that is worse than the problem.

    Speaking for myself ,I did not get vaxxed until I had a series of discussions with a doctor
    Good for you. No objection to that. If every denier did that, we'd be ahead of the game.

    I give you Merck as example A . They have a p ............................ their new much more expensive covid drug ..... The industry spends an average of $20,000 per doctor annually marketing drugs to them .................... corruption practices
    I don't deny the industry, like all industries, has its share of screwups - honestly and otherwise. How do the examples you noted compare to the successes?

    I'm sure those health care providers you dismiss as kooks have similar such tales
    I never said I dismissed health care providers as kooks. Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. That was done consistently by another here, and it is quite annoying, especially when it becomes habitual. I have the highest regard for health care providers.

    I became convinced it is worth the risk . I don't blame those who take a different view .
    Your conviction is admirable, but it is the exception. I DO blame those who refuse to get the vaccine for the flimsiest of reasons based on ignorance and misplaced politics.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #9

    Oct 11, 2021, 04:25 AM
    Reality check . Covid is here to stay. It cannot be eradicated with vaccines , It will eventually mutate to a less serious virus because that serves it's purpose . Flu in all it's variants, and the 4 coronaviruses that make up the common cold are also endemic .Acquired immunity ,memory B cells and T cells over time has brought us to a point that we tolerate the seasonal deaths and illnesses without requiring mandatory vaxxing , lockdowns, masks and social distancing. That will also happen with covid and all the hand wringing won't change that .

    What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians
    who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #10

    Oct 11, 2021, 12:05 PM
    Perhaps a better question would have been, "Are mandatory vaxxers tyrants?"
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #11

    Oct 11, 2021, 12:13 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Perhaps a better question would have been, "Are mandatory vaxxers tyrants?"
    What do you suggest regarding vaxxing?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #12

    Oct 11, 2021, 12:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext
    "Give me liberty and possibly death!"
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #13

    Oct 11, 2021, 12:26 PM
    I would quote Franklin but it is too obvious . I guess our deal with the government is Faustian . We empower them to provide safety and then they use that to enslave us . That was Franklin's warning in his famous quote .

    All the framers had that concern too.

    It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. (Federalist 51 Hamilton and Madison )
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #14

    Oct 11, 2021, 01:56 PM
    What do I suggest? I suggest people take the vax. I know of no good reason not to other than the distinct possibility that some long term effects might show up. But I absolutely encourage those who don't want to take it to stand their ground and not take it, and that would especially include the under 40 crowd and those who have already had and survived Covid. In my relatively small state alone, that's about a half million.

    The bottom line is this. It is strictly a personal decision. You put no one at risk other than yourself and anyone else who has chosen not to be vaxed. I have no idea why it is any business of the government.

    "Give me liberty and possibly death!"
    That was, in fact, an entirely accurate description of the situation the men in the Continental Army found themselves. Liberty is always less safe but far more satisfying and filled with potential.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #15

    Oct 11, 2021, 02:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I have no idea why it is any business of the government.
    Thank goodness the government doesn't force us to wear seatbelts! Or get a driver's license! Or get ID for voting! Or demand MMR/polio/DPT etc. vaccinations for our children!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #16

    Oct 11, 2021, 02:26 PM
    force us to wear seatbelts!
    Was a terrible idea from the beginning. Why is it someone else's business if I choose not to wear a seatbelt?

    Or get a driver's license!
    Completely different situation. It is certainly the other driver's concern for me to have demonstrated an ability to drive safely and to be forced to help pay for safety on the highways.

    Or get ID for voting!
    Same thing. It is everyone's business that we have elections that are not corrupted. Check out 2020 for evidence.

    Or demand MMR/polio/DPT etc. vaccinations for our children!
    Kind of debatable. The government says it has the authority to force parents to do what is in the best interest of their children. My chief objection would be the concept of the slippery slope upon which, predictably, we find ourselves now.

    It's a very simple principle. Is this largely a personal decision with consequences which primarily impact me and me alone, or can the gov demonstrate a genuine public reason for concern with my actions? So a good way to frame it is this. How would my refusal to do XXXXX affect Wondergirl? If that answer is basically, "in no way", then the gov should mind its own business and let me mind mine.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #17

    Oct 11, 2021, 02:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So a good way to frame it is this. How would my refusal to do XXXXX affect Wondergirl? If that answer is basically, "in no way", then the gov should mind its own business and let me mind mine.
    NO, not WG. How would your refusal affect your relatives/friends/neighbors, those who drive on the same roads you do, the children and teachers your own children interact with?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #18

    Oct 11, 2021, 02:44 PM
    Fair enough. It's really the same principle. But it has to be a direct impact and not simply indirect. If not, then I could say, "How WG spends her money affects, in many ways, her entire community. Therefore the government has a vested interest in telling her how to spend her money."
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #19

    Oct 11, 2021, 03:10 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Fair enough. It's really the same principle. But it has to be a direct impact and not simply indirect.
    Those direct impacts without seat belts can be killers! That unvaccinated kid with whooping cough who's coughing on my kid has a direct impact on him. Guess how quickly chicken pops can run through a school if no vaccinations.
    If not, then I could say, "How WG spends her money affects, in many ways, her entire community. Therefore the government has a vested interest in telling her how to spend her money."
    I pay both state and federal taxes.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 4,348, Reputation: 156
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    #20

    Oct 11, 2021, 03:51 PM
    Those direct impacts without seat belts can be killers
    Not to other people. Only to the driver or any other passenger choosing not to click it.

    That unvaccinated kid with whooping cough who's coughing on my kid has a direct impact on him. Guess how quickly chicken pops can run through a school if no vaccinations.
    Not if your kid is vaxed. It's really very simple.

    I pay both state and federal taxes.
    I was not talking even one small bit about taxes.

    Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those businesses all suffer indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom to spend your money elsewhere. However, I suspect you would have no problem with it.

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