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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #1

    Sep 12, 2011, 08:41 AM
    9/12 - Thank Goodness!
    Hello:

    I must be the ONLY one who gagged at our self indulgent pity party over the weekend. I'm only now beginning to realize that the decade that changed American forever is due to an over abundance of victimhood.. Why didn't we get all squishy over the first World Trade Center attack? What about the USS Cole? Only 17 dead people - not enough to build a memorial?? Why not the Muir office building? Still not enough dead people, huh?

    19 Arabs attacked us, and they won... Boy, oh boy, did they win. We've wasted TRILLIONS of $$'s putting our future at risk, killed and LOST a lot of people, and yet there are more and more Terrorists around the world who hate us... We have a surveillance state that's focused on US instead of the bad guys. I fear for my country..

    excon
    joypulv's Avatar
    joypulv Posts: 21,591, Reputation: 2941
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    #2

    Sep 12, 2011, 08:56 AM
    I watched 10 minutes of some firemen watching their smashed fire truck about to go into the museum. Then I realized that they had a big fat camera in their faces and they were trying not to cry and I couldn't watch and I didn't like the whole schmear anyway. It's like a bunch of PR people were hired to do a funeral. Who needs it, who is watching, who is cashing in on flags and memorabilia? And the first responders weren't even invited 'because there wasn't room.' So it really was all for show, all for politics. What else is new.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #3

    Sep 12, 2011, 09:27 AM
    So, I guess we should ditch Memorial Day, Pearl Harbor Day, Veterans Day and all that?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #4

    Sep 12, 2011, 09:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    So, I guess we should ditch Memorial Day, Pearl Harbor Day, Veterans Day and all that?
    Hello again, Steve:

    I should have figured.. You're one of the sloppy ones. Now, 9/11 is going to be a national holiday? Puke! It's NOT that I don't value THESE 3,000 dead... I value ALL dead.

    Look. I knew I'd get beat up when I posted this... I can take it. I think I AM the only one..

    excon
    JoeCanada76's Avatar
    JoeCanada76 Posts: 6,669, Reputation: 1707
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    #5

    Sep 12, 2011, 09:52 AM
    Government to announce Sept. 11 will be national day of service | Canada | News | Calgary Sun
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #6

    Sep 12, 2011, 09:55 AM
    Hello Joe:

    Well, we KNEW that was coming..

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #7

    Sep 12, 2011, 10:09 AM
    Oh I'm not going to beat you up, I was just curious. I get it, but it is important to remember the day and honor the fallen and the heroes - with a little less manufactured, self-serving attention.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #8

    Sep 12, 2011, 01:55 PM
    All those people who flock to the Vietnam memorial after all these years must be engaged in self pity . I on the other hand find the memorial quite a moving tribute... as I do Arlington ;and Gettysburg cemetery ,and the Pearl Harbor memorial constructed atop the hull of the USS Arizona.

    There is nothing wrong with a national day of remembrance . Not sure about a day of "service " . Most of the victims ;even the heroic ones ,were doing their jobs. If asked ;that's what they'd say.

    The tribute was important given that it has been a decade and there is finally something of a suitable memorial here in NY ,and in Shanksville ,and (I think ) in the Pentagon.
    Over time we will have moved on.. the families... not so much .
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #9

    Sep 12, 2011, 02:09 PM
    It's like a bunch of PR people were hired to do a funeral. Who needs it, who is watching, who is cashing in on flags and memorabilia? And the first responders weren't even invited 'because there wasn't room.' So it really was all for show, all for politics. What else is new.
    It was for the families of the victims . The 1st responder heroes of course deserve their recognition. But how many people could you pack in there and still hold an appropriate tribute ?
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #10

    Sep 12, 2011, 02:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    All those people who flock to the Vietnam memorial after all these years must be engaged in self pity . I on the other hand find the memorial quite a moving tribute....as I do Arlington ;and Gettysburg cemetery ,and the Pearl Harbor memorial constructed atop the hull of the USS Arizona.
    Arlington leaves me speechless, as does the one at Ft Rosecrans in San Diego. I was quite moved by the Murrah memorial as well, which I think is what he meant by Muir, and who isn't touched by the JFK memorial in Dallas? It's good to remember.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #11

    Sep 12, 2011, 08:07 PM
    Hey ex thanks, I didn't want to say it but I am really over this 9/11 thing. Someone observed to me the other day that 911 is the US emergency call number so you have no way of getting the numbers out of your focus.

    They are forever associated with disaster.

    It is time for you to move on, and to move on in the war on terror. Retribution has happened. Look at the crediable threats you had for 9/11, didn't happen. The terrorists succeeded in spreading terror without actually doing anything. The whole thing was very regretable but when I see those images again I turn off the TV, I don't want to see them again. It is like the holocaust, I don't want to see those images again either
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #12

    Sep 13, 2011, 02:31 AM
    It is like the holocaust, I don't want to see those images again either
    The Jews correctly say"never forget " . There are people who try to rewrite history and claim the holocaust never happened. It wasn't long after 9-11 before the counter narratives about 9-11 began.
    I'm pretty sure you and Ex have the convenience of distance shaping your opinion. Me , I went to our town Memorial because there are people we know who were directly affected... the family of the firefighter we lost... the children of victims who attended my wife's class .

    The last time I was at Ground Zero was when I was serving Jury Duty in Federal Court. I took the Path Train that went through the gaping hole before it made it to the WTC train station. It was a vivid reminder of the day. I look forward to going to the memorial;museum... and very soon ,to travel to the top of the FREEDOM TOWER (no I won't call it One World Trade Center... that is the name those who want us to forget call the building ).
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #13

    Sep 13, 2011, 05:36 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The Jews correctly say"never forget " . There are people who try to rewrite history and claim the holocaust never happened. It wasn't long after 9-11 before the counter narratives about 9-11 began.
    I'm pretty sure you and Ex have the convenience of distance shaping your opinion. Me , I went to our town Memorial because there are people we know who were directly affected ...the family of the firefighter we lost...the children of victims who attended my wife's class .

    The last time I was at Ground Zero was when I was serving Jury Duty in Federal Court. I took the Path Train that went through the gaping hole before it made it to the WTC train station. It was a vivid reminder of the day. I look forward to going to the memorial;museum ....and very soon ,to travel to the top of the FREEDOM TOWER (no I won't call it One World Trade Center...that is the name those who want us to forget call the building ).
    Tom I greive with you for those who were killed and for their families and the responders but there comes a time when we move on. I have seen the images of the holocaust for most of my life, I really don't need to see them again to know it happened. The Jews are paranoid and I understand why the Israeli's are paranoid but I don't need to feed on their paranoia. There have been many disasters in history much bigger than 9/11, we don't commemorate them. Why don't you try commemorating the destruction of Colonne sometime or the lost of the 40 million Russians in WWII. You don't do it because it has no meaning to your nation and the rest of us should be allowed to forget
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #14

    Sep 13, 2011, 07:12 AM
    The Jews are paranoid and I understand why the Israeli's are paranoid but I don't need to feed on their paranoia.
    A history of persecution will do that to you.

    You don't do it because it has no meaning to your nation and the rest of us should be allowed to forget
    Clete ,I already made allowances for your disconnect.
    I honor the Russians killed defeating the Nazis ,and also remember the 20 million Russians killed by their own tyranny . It will always be ingrained in my thoughts the brutality of National and International Socialists .
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #15

    Sep 13, 2011, 07:46 AM
    Hello again,

    It's not THAT we remembered. It's that we got all sloppy about it. I was trying to connect that sloppiness with our decade of war. I wonder if we had treated it like a POLICE action, like we did Ok City, like we did the first World Trade Center bombing, MAYBE we wouldn't have started two, maybe three --- oh hell --- I don't know HOW MANY wars we're involved in - ALL over 9/11.

    It should be remembered that Mullah Omar DID volunteer to arrest Bin Laden and turn him over to us. Bush said no. He'd rather bomb them, and he did.

    I might add that my views have NOTHING to do with where I live. Seattle IS part of America.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #16

    Sep 13, 2011, 08:08 AM
    I wonder if we had treated it like a POLICE action, like we did Ok City, like we did the first World Trade Center bombing, MAYBE we wouldn't have started two, maybe three --- oh hell --- I don't know HOW MANY wars we're involved in - ALL over 9/11.
    The attack on the WTC ;the Pentagon, and the Capitol was an attempt to decapitate the US government ,it's central command ,and it's economy.

    Did we treat the Japanese attack on Pearl as a police action?. or maybe we treated that attack as an ideological and existential attack on our way of life.
    Back then we fought national socialism no matter where it manifested itself. We fought the Vichi French.. Did they attack us ? No . We fought throughout North Africa . Did Tunesia attack us ? No ;but we invaded the continent anyway . We invaded Italy... Did Italy invade us ? No .
    We played the world policeman. Wherever the Japanese were we invaded .
    Were we perfect in execution ? Nope . History has forgotten most of the blunders. Was it a distraction to send an army to invade the Philippines to sooth MaCarthur's bruised ego ? Almost certainly . Was there intel failures and missed opportunities ? Plenty .

    It should be remembered that Mullah Omar DID volunteer to arrest Bin Laden and turn him over to us. Bush said no. He'd rather bomb them, and he did.
    Not quite correct. We wanted an unconditional handover of OBL to the US . Omar said he'd hand over OBL to Pakistan... you know ,the same nation that sheltered OBL for another decade after the war began.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #17

    Sep 13, 2011, 08:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Did we treat the Japanese attack on Pearl as a police action ? ....or maybe we treated that attack as an ideological and existential attack on our way of life.
    Hello again, tom:

    The distinctions are GINORMIS.. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a MILITARY attack upon MILITARY targets by an entire NATION. The attack on WTC was done by 19 terrorists who represented, at BEST, a rag tag bunch of want to be's. We Could have taken them out with special forces in a POLICE action, instead of an all out war - the LONGEST war in our history - and one that we AIN'T going to win.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #18

    Sep 13, 2011, 08:33 AM
    You're stuck in a Westphalian definition of nation-state. The fact is that AQ was not a rag tag bunch of wanna be's;not when they became an instrument of foreign policy by state sponsors .
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #19

    Sep 13, 2011, 08:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    you're stuck in a Westphalian definition of nation-state. The fact is that AQ was not a rag tag bunch of wanna be's;not when they became an instrument of foreign policy by state sponsors .
    Hello again, tom:

    If I'm Westphalian, you're Orwellian...

    The Taliban did NOT know Bin Laden was going to attack us. The Taliban was NOT our enemy until we bombed them. We COULD have taken out Bin Laden with special forces, and the Taliban would NOT have protected him. Instead, your cowboy wanted vengeance.

    That mistake could have cost us the nation.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #20

    Sep 13, 2011, 09:06 AM
    The Taliban gave him shelter AFTER he began his war on the US in 1993 . They were in on all his plans from the African Embassy bombings to the attack on the USS Cole. Do you really think they weren't ? Do you really think the Paki's didn't know ? [basic timeline 1993 1st WTC bombing... 1996 OBL expelled from Sudan and he goes to Afghanistan... 1996 Khobar base attack... 1998 Africa Embassy bombings.. 2000 failed "millenium " plot on LAX and other targets.. .
    2000 attack on USS Cole.. ]
    You think he planned and executed these plots in a vacuum ?


    On 9-10-01 in a prelude to the 9-11 attacks ,AQ attacked and killed Taliban opponent, and leader of the Northern Alliance that assisted the US in the war ,Ahmed Shah Massoud.

    You don't see the connection ? Of course the Taliban knew .

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