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    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #1

    Jan 1, 2021, 10:14 AM
    Will we have free will in heaven?
    Because God didn't want us to be His puppets, He gave mankind free will. Will we still have free will in heaven?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,303, Reputation: 10854
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    #2

    Jan 1, 2021, 11:31 AM
    Depends if heaven has rules and regulations to follow.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 566, Reputation: 55
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    #3

    Jan 2, 2021, 10:16 AM
    What about right here on earth?

    Assuming God is omnipotent and omniscient, he knows what John will do from the moment of his creation. He knows John will be a policeman, marry, and die at the age of 70 - and every other minute detail of John's life. He knows these things about John from all eternity well in advance of John actually doing them. John's existence is predestined, determined and lacks free will since he cannot do other than what God has foreseen.

    This is purposely as simple an example as possible. Philosophers have written tomes on the subject.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #4

    Jan 18, 2021, 06:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    John's existence is predestined, determined and lacks free will since he cannot do other than what God has foreseen.
    Omniscience of human actions does not assume human actions are predestined. God gave mankind free will and lets us be the driver. God isn't driving; we are.
    Athos's Avatar
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    #5

    Jan 18, 2021, 08:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Omniscience of human actions does not assume human actions are predestined. God gave mankind free will and lets us be the driver. God isn't driving; we are.
    If it is true that human actions can be other then what God has foreseen then God is in error. Is it possible for God to make a mistake?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #6

    Jan 18, 2021, 08:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    If it is true that human actions can be other then what God has foreseen then God is in error. Is it possible for God to make a mistake?
    He knows what will happen, what consequences there will be, but doesn't always stop us or rescue us -- which brings up the question, Why do we pray?
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    #7

    Jan 18, 2021, 09:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    He knows what will happen, what consequences there will be, but doesn't always stop us or rescue us -- which brings up the question, Why do we pray?
    If he knows what will happen then he is omniscient. If you're saying we are able to do something other than what he knew would happen, then he is not omniscient.

    I'll do the prayer question when we resolve this one. I'm a unitasker.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #8

    Jan 18, 2021, 09:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    If he knows what will happen then he is omniscient. If you're saying we are able to do something other than what he knew would happen, then he is not omniscient.

    I'll do the prayer question when we resolve this one. I'm a unitasker.
    He knows what we will do. If we switch gears, He knows we will. If we're headed toward the ditch, He knows that but doesn't rescue us (maybe).
    Athos's Avatar
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    #9

    Jan 18, 2021, 09:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    He knows,what we will do. If we switch gears, He knows we will. If we're headed toward the ditch, He knows that but doesn't rescue us (maybe).
    Ok. If he knows we will switch gears then he must have known that before we switched gears. So no change - he's still omniscient.

    The ditch thing - ok, he knows that but doesn't help us. The omniscience was still there - he knows about the ditch. Not helping us has no effect on his foreknowledge.

    Woops - I think I hear the elevator. BRB.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #10

    Jan 19, 2021, 10:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    The ditch thing - ok, he knows that but doesn't help us. The omniscience was still there - he knows about the ditch. Not helping us has no effect on his foreknowledge.
    My concern is, does He really answer our prayers? Also, a young friend often speaks of "God's plan for my life". Does God plan our lives, like a Grand Chessmaster, and influence the outcome, thus making us mere chess pieces? Or do we really have free will? So, again, why do we pray for His intercession in our lives? Does He intercede? If He does, why would He help one but not another?
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    #11

    Jan 19, 2021, 12:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    My concern is, does He really answer our prayers?
    If he does or if he doesn't, there is no effect on his foreknowledge, ergo no free will.

    Also, a young friend often speaks of "God's plan for my life". Does God plan our lives, like a Grand Chessmaster, and influence the outcome, thus making us mere chess pieces? Or do we really have free will?
    If God is a chessmaster, no free will.

    So, again, why do we pray for His intercession in our lives? Does He intercede? If He does, why would He help one but not another?
    If he does intercede, no effect on free will. Helping one and not another, no effect on free will.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,303, Reputation: 10854
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    #12

    Jan 19, 2021, 01:33 PM
    I have always thought assigning human qualities to the concept of God limits understanding greatly. It also leaves you open to whatever others say about God that may sound great, but may be inaccurate. Trust but verify!

    If he does intercede, no effect on free will. Helping one and not another, no effect on free will.
    That's why I focus on my own stuff and let God handle his stuff. Part of having free will is being responsible for the good, and the "bad" choices, or are they just our own failures and flaws that God allows us to make, or bad stuff happens to good people?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #13

    Jan 23, 2021, 05:37 PM
    If it is true that human actions can be other then what God has foreseen then God is in error. Is it possible for God to make a mistake?
    A classic argument for a really difficult topic. We might reply by asking, "How can love be truly love if the person has no choice? Wouldn't genuine love mandate freedom?"

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