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    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #1

    Mar 14, 2009, 11:14 PM
    What is in man that Jesus Knew?
    Today's gospel lesson.
    Jaoh 2: 13. The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    14. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.
    15. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
    16. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade."
    17. His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me."
    18. The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
    19. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
    20. The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
    21. But he spoke of the temple of his body.
    22. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
    23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;
    24. But Jesus did not trust himself to them,
    25. Because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
    <+><+><+>
    What is in man that Jesus Knew?
    Pace and kindness,
    Fred
    savedsinner7's Avatar
    savedsinner7 Posts: 412, Reputation: 52
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    #2

    Mar 15, 2009, 07:56 PM

    Our hearts. Our character.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #3

    Mar 15, 2009, 08:33 PM
    savedsinner7,
    Thanks for your answer, but it is very brawd
    Can you be a bit more specific, please?
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred.
    gromitt82's Avatar
    gromitt82 Posts: 370, Reputation: 23
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    #4

    Mar 16, 2009, 11:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Today's gospel lesson.
    Jaoh 2: 13. 24. but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
    25. because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
    <+><+><+>
    What is in man that Jesus Knew?
    Pace and kindness,
    Fred

    Jesus did not need anyone to tell Him about people, for He Knew everything about everyone around Him, for He is our creator. And He knows about you and I. And He knows it when we love Him and when we don’t; and He will watch out for us, all of our life and for all eternity.;);)
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #5

    Mar 16, 2009, 07:01 PM
    gromitt82,
    Indeed so.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    gromitt82's Avatar
    gromitt82 Posts: 370, Reputation: 23
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    #6

    Mar 17, 2009, 03:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    gromitt82,
    Indeed so.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    The older I grow, and I am what I could easily claim to be "rather" old, as you know, the easier I find to understand Jesus' message. I think it is mostly due to our tendency to complicate things that we feel like constantly trying to find new meanings to Jesus' words.

    Jesus was fully aware of the cultural level of the majority of the people He was addressing His Message to. Consequently, He used the parables to give examples of what He meant that were easy to understand by the multitudes.

    So if they could understand Jesus' words, why can't we?

    Claude:):(
    savedsinner7's Avatar
    savedsinner7 Posts: 412, Reputation: 52
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    #7

    Mar 18, 2009, 04:52 PM

    He knew the evil in their heart. Their unbelieving, deceitful, self-seeking hearts. We are all like this unless we let Jesus in to change our hearts.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #8

    Mar 18, 2009, 09:28 PM
    savedsinner7,
    Thank you.
    Jesus also knows that generally good people can do bad things fir various reasons.
    We are imperfect.
    God, please help us all struggle to attain your perfection.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    sndbay's Avatar
    sndbay Posts: 1,447, Reputation: 62
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    #9

    Mar 19, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    What is in man that Jesus Knew?
    Pace and kindness,
    Fred
    Cain: eldest son of Adam and Eve and the first murderer having murdered his brother Abel

    Cain's Tribe: Kenite = "smiths"

    Kenite: the tribe from which the father-in-law of Moses was a member and which lived in the area between southern Palestine and the mountains of Sinai

    I Corinthians 2:15
    And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

    Jabez: the head of a Calebite family, a town in Judah apparently near Bethlehem (Jabez was granted a blessing from God after he was said to have prayed for satan to bow and flee from him, yet also known as his mother's sorrow)

    Tiranthites : "men of the gate" one of the 3 families of Kenite scribes living at Jabez

    Shimeathites : "report" a family of scribes

    Suchathities : "bush-men" a family of scribes at Jabez and descendants of Judah through Caleb

    Hebrew defination of Scribes: enumerator, muster-officer, secretary, scribe; learned man, scribe

    Greek defination of Scribes : a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder, whose office and influence differed in different states, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with the priests and elders of the people. A religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven

    II Chronicles 34: 16 Also they were over the bearers of burdens, and were overseers of all that wrought the work in any manner of service: and of the Levites there were scribes, and officers, and porters.

    I Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and]Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

    Luke20:46-47 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #10

    Mar 19, 2009, 01:40 PM
    sndbay ,
    That is interesting.
    Thanks,
    Fred
    sndbay's Avatar
    sndbay Posts: 1,447, Reputation: 62
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    #11

    Mar 19, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    sndbay ,
    That is interesting.
    Thanks,
    Fred
    The Word says man fell asleep when this took place or do you think they just turned they heads?... Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

    Matthew 13:38-39 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #12

    Mar 19, 2009, 04:02 PM
    sndbay,
    Point well made.
    Fred
    Maggie 3's Avatar
    Maggie 3 Posts: 262, Reputation: 41
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    #13

    Mar 23, 2009, 06:58 PM

    There is nothing in man that Jesus does not
    Know.

    Maggie 3
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #14

    Mar 23, 2009, 07:21 PM
    Thanks, Maggie 3.
    Fred
    gromitt82's Avatar
    gromitt82 Posts: 370, Reputation: 23
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    #15

    Mar 24, 2009, 05:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie 3 View Post
    There is nothing in man that Jesus does not
    know.

    Maggie 3
    Jesus is GOD, and as such, not only there is nothing in man He does not know, but there is nothing in the Universe, past, present and future, that He does not know also.
    God is eternal, everlasting. COnsequently, past, present and future must mean exactly the same for the concept of time cannot exist in eternity... :):)
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #16

    Mar 24, 2009, 01:59 PM
    gromitt82,
    That is not only true it is also amazing.
    It boggles the mind.
    Fred
    jakester's Avatar
    jakester Posts: 582, Reputation: 165
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    #17

    Mar 24, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Today's gospel lesson.
    Jaoh 2: 13. The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    14. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.
    15. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
    16. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade."
    17. His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me."
    18. The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
    19. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
    20. The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
    21. But he spoke of the temple of his body.
    22. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
    23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;
    24. but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
    25. because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
    <+><+><+>
    What is in man that Jesus Knew?
    Pace and kindness,
    Fred

    Fred - this is an interesting section of scripture to me... I have many thoughts about it that are of particular interest to me.

    One interpretation of the opening section (that you quoted) is that Jesus's overturning of the tables and chasing out of the money changers is the beginning of the end for Jesus, if you will. The disciples reflect on a psalm of David in which the context is that David is proclaiming that in his pursuit of following God, it has brought strife into his life. David's thoughts are this: "God, my enemies are taking out their hatred of you on me. I am doing your will and those that hate you are now hating me." David's cry to God is, "God, please save me from my enemies who despise me because they despise you." Read Psalm 69 to get a better context.

    At any rate, the disciples are making a connection to the life of David in observing what Jesus did in the Temple. They realized that by doing what he did in the Temple, it was inviting the wrath and hatred of the Jewish leaders. Similarly, David was hated and pursued by his enemies because of the stands he took for God. Jesus exhibited a greal deal of courage in standing up to the religious establishment in that fashion. He knew that his actions would not go unnoticed. Ultimately, his actions would lead to the calls for his crucifixion, as the Gospels all go on to chronicle. This event in the Temple set the ball in motion from that point forward.

    Now, the question is about the language concerning bearing witness. The context again is following the situation in the Temple. The question regarding his actions was this: "what sign do you have to show us for doing this?" In other words, how can you prove that God is really on your side after coming in here and destroying our business like this... the tone of their question suggests that they are trying to figure out if Jesus had lost his mind because if he were anyone else, they may have already killed him. So they play with him by asking him for a sign. What does he say? He says, kill me and in three days I will raise this temple from the dead. Right there he challenges them and predicts his death all in one breath. But they didn't get what he was saying. He did fulfill his sign, though.

    Lastly, the final point is the last section. Jesus has demonstrated his Messiahship through various miracles and works already. But the people have proven to be fickle in their commitments; much like Israel after they were led out of Egypt. God showed many miracles and performed many works in their midst, yet their hearts were hardened to these things and they refused to obey God. No matter how many times God demonstrated his authority and power, the people's hearts refused to believe. It was the same way with Jesus. Even though his testimony was true and from God, the witnesses of his miracles and works failed in their testimony of these miracles in that they refused to see them for what they were... from God. From God's perspective, he did not need man to testify of Christ's miracles because man was flawed. Which immediately brings the writer to the next point he was making: since man is incapable of being a reliable witness of the miracles of God due to the sinfulness of his own heart, it is proof in of itself that Jesus does not need to bear witness of man because man has already proven his own unreliability in seeing the truth for what it really is. Jesus does not need to give a discourse on man because man's own evil is readily apparent in his inability to rightly see and believe in what the Son of God was doing in his midst.
    arcura's Avatar
    arcura Posts: 3,773, Reputation: 191
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    #18

    Mar 24, 2009, 08:04 PM
    jakester,
    Thank you for that thoughtful answer and I do agree.
    But I do keep in mind that not all the people had hard hearts which were unmoved by Christ and His many miracles.
    He had 12 apostles and many disciples who went out into the world doing as Jesus instructed.
    The preached. Performed, miracles, and wrote the books that eventually became the bible and more.
    As a result we have a world today with about 2 billion Christians and growing.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
    sndbay's Avatar
    sndbay Posts: 1,447, Reputation: 62
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    #19

    Mar 25, 2009, 05:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    God showed many miracles and performed many works in their midst, yet their hearts were hardened to these things and they refused to obey God. No matter how many times God demonstrated his authority and power, the people's hearts refused to believe. It was the same way with Jesus. Even though his testimony was true and from God, the witnesses of his miracles and works failed in their testimony of these miracles in that they refused to see them for what they were...from God.
    I agree with what you are saying here.. Yet I would remind us all that we have been told those in darkness do not see the light. It is a choice of belief in opening the door that Christ stands waiting to come in... We acknowledge that God knows the hearts, and the conviction of each heart of man's flesh... It is God that reveals and increases the truth within those that He wilt.

    I Corinthians 2:10-11
    To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
    Quote Originally Posted by jakester View Post

    From God's perspective, he did not need man to testify of Christ's miracles because man was flawed. .
    This I would feel differently about because I feel God indeed used man in many ways. One example was the blind man from birth shown to be an ensample of one he would use as a servant in labor to show God's power. Many that saw believed...

    (John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.)



    As for man being flawed, I agree because none walk this earth in perfection without God who will anoint ... And without Christ as the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.
    (I Peter 2:25) ( II Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God)

    Quote Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    Which immediately brings the writer to the next point he was making: since man is incapable of being a reliable witness of the miracles of God due to the sinfulness of his own heart, it is proof in of itself that Jesus does not need to bear witness of man because man has already proven his own unreliability in seeing the truth for what it really is. Jesus does not need to give a discourse on man because man's own evil is readily apparent in his inability to rightly see and believe in what the Son of God was doing in his midst.
    I would reference to the parable of the tares. There are those that are of darkness within the field of the world, and they will remain until the returning of Christ. The tares were planted by satan, and do follow satan's enticing word of temptation.

    Jakester would you agree that we can not discount the ability of what God granted to those who remain in the light of Christ. Who in Christ walk as he ensampled, and have the promise of being anointed. That indeed they can still sin of the flesh, ( being weak as the disciples were) but in the spirit are one with Christ
    sndbay's Avatar
    sndbay Posts: 1,447, Reputation: 62
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    #20

    Mar 25, 2009, 05:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    jakester,
    Thank you for that thoughtful answer and I do agree.
    But I do keep in mind that not all the people had hard hearts which were unmoved by Christ and His many miracles.
    He had 12 apostles and many disciples who went out into the world doing as Jesus instructed.
    Agree


    Quote Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    The preached. performed, miracles, and wrote the books that eventually became the bible and more.
    As a result we have a world today with about 2 billion Christians and growing.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred

    All done in obedience to what God wilt, as inspired by God, increased in truth and revealed unto them by God. To the glory of God forever .. Amen

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