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    civicdx92's Avatar
    civicdx92 Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jun 25, 2006, 04:54 PM
    92 civic engine cranks but it won't start!
    Hello,

    I have a 92 civic dx manual with 188k miles
    My son drove it to School had it towed home.
    The engine cranks over but it wonít start.
    Iím not getting fuel over to the fuel rail.
    I have no pressure.
    I got no problem codes.
    Check engine light never came on.

    I Checked and replaced fuel pump relay no fix.
    I Checked and replaced fuel pump no fix.
    I checked and replaced ICM along with Coil no fix.
    I replaced all these parts because the car is over 13 years ald and I've never really had any problems with it.
    I plan on keeping this car for another 10 years or so Hondas are great cars.

    What Iím I missing here guys?

    Thanks,
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #2

    Jun 25, 2006, 07:34 PM
    I suspect the voltage going from your ECM to the MAP sensor is the problem. Check for 5v. Going to the MAP sensor's reference wire (+) and ground. It's probably a fraction of a volt, indicating the ECM is failing. If the signal wire from the MAP sensor is real low, you won't get spark and the fuel system will shut down. This is the KEY sensor on Hondas and a major design flaw, in my opinion. They should have designed a more fault tolerant electrical system. The real test is to turn the ignition switch OFF, disconnect the D harness to the computer, turn the ignition switch ON, and measure the voltage between computer pins D19(+) and D21(-). If there is less than approximately 5 v. then substitute a known good ECM. If you have approximately 5 v. between D19 and D21, then repair an open between the ECM and YEL/GRN reference wire going to the MAP sensor. Odds are your computer has failed and it's time to replace it. MAP sensor failure is another possibility, as well. Both are easy to check out.

    In return for the help, let me know the ultimate solution.
    civicdx92's Avatar
    civicdx92 Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jun 26, 2006, 11:43 PM
    I get only about 300mvdc at the MAP sensor connection.
    I'm having a problem IDing pin D19 and D21 at the ECM My book is real generic and basic.
    I'm not sure if I mention that I get no codes but the check engine light stays on all the time and never goes off.

    Thanks,
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #4

    Jun 27, 2006, 06:33 AM
    The odds are your MAP sensor test confirmed your ECM is bad. By the way, the check engine light staying on and no codes being thrown are characteristics of this problem. Checking the voltage at the ECM only confirms that you do not have an open between the ECM and the MAP sensor. Honda wants about $850 for a new ECM. I suggest going to O'Reilly Auto Parts and buying an A1 Cardone remanufactured ECM, with a lifetime warranty, for around $260. I'm certain this will solve your problem.

    ECMs are nothing more than "power transistors," whose job is to supply the proper voltage to a host of sensors, under constantly varying conditions. Some websites bogusly claim the odds of a Honda ECM going bad are virtually zero. Don't believe it for a minute. When you remove your ECM, disconnecting the negative battery terminal first, look at the heat discoloration on the metal covers. You will observe a spiral blue pattern. ECMs don't have fan motors to cool them and, to make matters worse, are covered by carpeting. Heat, vibration, and shorts reduce their lives. You did well getting 188,000 miles out of your ECM. Once you replace it, your car will fire right up, run like a top, and the check engine light will go out. Most Honda technicians are in the dark when it comes to diagnosing the situation you encountered. They don't understand the vital significance of MAP sensors in Hondas. They are the single most important transducer in these cars. If they don't get the proper voltage, your ignition and fuel systems shut down. You will have just saved yourself a lot of money and learned some valuable information about trouble-shooting your car. It's all in the diagnosis, not in "replacing and playing." Too many main relays, fuel pumps, ICMs, and coils are being unnecessarily replaced for a "won't start situation." Even the Honda Shop Manual did not include this test for this situation. Spread the word and help others.

    Please keep me posted with what happens.
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #5

    Jul 5, 2006, 08:20 PM
    So what did you end up doing?
    civicdx92's Avatar
    civicdx92 Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Jul 5, 2006, 09:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey
    So what did you end up doing?
    Well I ended up purchasing a used ECM from my local junkyard $125 from a 95 civic.
    I would like to thank you for all you great input, I would not had been able to figuire it out with out your help.
    THanks,
    :D
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #7

    Jul 6, 2006, 06:46 AM
    Your posting makes my day. Thanks. I was really interested in your situation and I'm glad you were able to fix it so reasonably. You're a good dad and I'm sure your son appreciates your effort.
    kean's Avatar
    kean Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Jul 31, 2006, 03:26 AM
    Good day txgreasemonkey,

    I have the same problem as civicdx92.

    I only get more or less 2V on D19 and D21 of the ECM(tested that while the ECM was unbolted from the body of the car, I don't know if there will be a grounding issue). I checked the map sensor pin connector and it gave me the same reading (ECM was unbloted from the body).

    I suspect my ECM is bad also, but sometimes it does work!
    After several times of turning the ignition key back and forth sometimes the CEL goes out and the engine will start OK.

    So I isolated any problem with distributor.

    I had my mitsuba relay resoldered, and I can hear it click.

    Is my ECM bad? I would want to change it but the OEM is quite expensive and I doubt the reliability of a used ECM because it might perform just like mine?

    Please help

    Thank you in advance.
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #9

    Jul 31, 2006, 07:37 AM
    kean, I'm sure your ECM is bad. Try and buy a remanufactured ECM with a lifetime warranty. You can buy a Cardone ECM from O'Reilly Auto Parts, with a lifetime warranty, for $293.99 in the U.S. Other outfits sell Cardone ECMs but only with a 1 year warranty. Here's O'Reilly's offering:

    CARDONE INDUSTRIES - Remanufactured Electronic Control Unit
    Part No: 72-2048
    1 Per Vehicle
    Limited lifetime warranty
    w/OEM #37820
    P06
    A00, A01
    ENG CTRL MODULE
    w/MAN TRANS
    EXC CALIF
    Our Price: $293.99


    Each
    [Core: $70 ]
    kean's Avatar
    kean Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Jul 31, 2006, 09:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey
    kean, I'm sure your ECM is bad. Try and buy a remanufactured ECM with a lifetime warranty. You can buy a Cardone ECM from O'Reilly Auto Parts, with a lifetime warranty, for $293.99 in the U.S. Other outfits sell Cardone ECMs but only with a 1 year warranty. Here's O'Reilly's offering:

    CARDONE INDUSTRIES - Remanufactured Electronic Control Unit
    Part No: 72-2048
    1 Per Vehicle
    Limited lifetime warranty
    w/OEM #37820
    P06
    A00, A01
    ENG CTRL MODULE
    w/MAN TRANS
    EXC CALIF
    Our Price: $293.99


    Each
    [Core: $70 ]
    hello txgreasemonkey,

    sorr for not being convinced but I looked for a same model car and we switched our P27 ECM, his ECM just worked fine with me, my ECM was really bad. For the moment I will just buy a used ECM to be able use the car. But I don't think it will stay long since it will be the same age as my ECM and the probability of failing is high. That includes humid, hot, and cold weather, and more places are flooeded during rainy days.

    I plan to keep the car for long since it is my 1st car.

    looking for branches of Cordone Industries, I found one in mississauga ontario canada where most of my ralatives live. I hope they have a stock

    I will just ask them to buy me one and give it to me on their next visit to us this November.

    thank you very much for your help
    zortmo's Avatar
    zortmo Posts: 10, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Aug 8, 2006, 06:54 PM
    Txgreasemonkey,
    I also have similar prob. I show no voltage between 19 & 21 at the ecu but I show .12 at map sensor. Is that possible or am I doing something wrong? I have 2 ecu's, one is supposed to be known good. They both measure the same voltages. I'm pretty sure I have fuel pressure as I hear it buzz for a couple of seconds at key on. Just no spark...
    Thanks,
    Mike
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #12

    Aug 8, 2006, 07:32 PM
    Your description is an impossibility. You must have at least .12 v. at the ECM, if you record .12 v. at the MAP sensor. Are you turning the ignition ON, when you record your readings at the ECM? No matter, your readings are SO low that both ECMs are bad, if you are running the tests properly. Is your DMM set for DCV?

    I think I just figured out what you are doing. You are testing for voltage on the D19 and D21 "female" connector. That's why you are reading zero volts. You need to test the voltage on the ECM's "male" pins.

    Do you hear your fuel pump run, when your ignition is turned to ON? Does your Check Engine Light stay on?

    Where did you go?
    zortmo's Avatar
    zortmo Posts: 10, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Aug 9, 2006, 04:50 AM
    You are correct... I was checking female end (DCV). The fuel pump runs for a couple of seconds after turning the key on and the CEL comes on and then goes off about the same time as the fuel pump stops buzzing. I have to go to work... I will test again this afternoon. Thanks for your help.
    kean's Avatar
    kean Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Aug 9, 2006, 05:43 AM
    You already have a known good ecu then why don't you just plug it to ecu harness and check if there will be approximately 5V on MAP sensor pin?

    Or just start the engine.

    Having a solid CEL is one sign of a bad ecu, and you can't retrieve any code.

    In your case having a click in the main ralay and fuel pump goes off after 2 secs as well as the CEL, isolate the problem with a bad ecu.

    Once you fixed the problem, you may try to use your old ecu and check if it works.
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #15

    Aug 9, 2006, 07:27 AM
    At this point, I don't think your problem is going to be your ECM. Just for the heck of it, though, take a MAP sensor connector reading on the right most wire and let me know what you get. Make sure you get a really good ground on the black test lead. Press the lead into the G101 bolt, where the ECM grounds.

    I'd focus more on your distributor; e.g. igniter and coil.
    zortmo's Avatar
    zortmo Posts: 10, Reputation: 1
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    #16

    Aug 9, 2006, 02:40 PM
    Ok, I have 5 vdc leaving the ecu to map and I have the same voltage at map sensor. I didn't have a good ground in previous test.
    Here's where I am... I have battery voltage at both coil leads/ICM (key on). I have 9.7 at the other lead on top right of ICM... Battery voltage (12.5) at the lead on the side of ICM. I have to wait until some gets home to measure voltages while cranking. I read somewhere I should test at coil +... connected and disconnected whil cranking. Is that correct?
    If I didn't tell you before, I have a solid CEL when 2 pin connector is shorted @ ECU. No error codes. If I remove the jumper from 2 pin connector, CEL goes off like normal after a couple of seconds after key on... fuel pump buzzes during the couple of seconds.
    Thanks much for the help.
    Mike
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #17

    Aug 9, 2006, 02:50 PM
    Based on the age of your Civic, I'd replace the igniter, coil, rotor, and distributor cap. I'd recommend this, even if your car started. You are at the stage where you don't want things to go bad on you one at a time. Go for "like new" performance and put some new parts in it. Advance Auto has the cheapest ICM and RockAuto.com has the best price on coils. O'Reilly Auto Parts sells Wagner rotors and distributor caps with brass contacts and a lifetime warranty. Hondas are notorious for problems with ICMs, coils, and main relays. Just my opinion, though.

    Let's go back to the MAP sensor connector for a minute. With the ignition ON, what voltage do you get between the YEL/GRN reference wire+(right wire) and the GRN/BLU neutral wire-(center wire)? How about between the WHT+ signal wire (left wire) and the GRN/BLU neutral wire-(center wire)?
    zortmo's Avatar
    zortmo Posts: 10, Reputation: 1
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    #18

    Aug 9, 2006, 03:26 PM
    My wire colors are different than you describe... yel/red -- grn/wht -- what
    Between yel/red and center 5.0 vdc
    Between white and center 3.5 vdc
    Mike
    TxGreaseMonkey's Avatar
    TxGreaseMonkey Posts: 16,756, Reputation: 5596
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    #19

    Aug 9, 2006, 03:52 PM
    The voltage between WHT+ (D17) and center- (D21) should be 5 volts. Here's what you need to do. Disconnect negative. Battery terminal and remove the "D Harness" from the ECM. Then, reconnect the negative. Battery terminal and turn the ignition ON. Measure the voltage between male pins D17+ and D21- on the ECM. Tell me what voltage you observe.
    zortmo's Avatar
    zortmo Posts: 10, Reputation: 1
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    #20

    Aug 9, 2006, 04:02 PM
    3.54 vdc @ ECU, between d17+ and d21- (When I measure it starts at 3.9 and quickly drops to 3,54)

    Just to add... same voltage on both of the ecu's

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