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    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #1

    May 14, 2009, 01:50 PM
    How does a Comercial pilot, not know how to recover from a Stall.
    One of the first things you Learn, Power on and power off stalls, 1 thing I wanted to do, likely not allowed now. But I wanted to do a Power OFF stalls with no power for recovery.
    Gliders do it all the time?
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,379, Reputation: 2280
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    #2

    May 14, 2009, 02:06 PM

    So you are talking about the pilot who recently had his voice recorder released, right? Let's start with how he failed several tests so he's likely in the bottom half of his class. Also not familiar with the deicing of this particular plane and flying in ice conditions. When a wing ices up more power is not necessarily going to bring back the lift, the wing shape is now very simialt on top and bottom, no lift. My question is what idiot placed him in seat #1 to begin with.
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #3

    May 14, 2009, 02:55 PM

    Sort of reminds you of questions asked by Engineers and others on this site to help some VERY important Positions with their Test Questions. They are cheating themselves and Us.
    Only time I know to pull back on the yoke would be an inverted spin.
    Early days, pilots had a problem with that.
    Some people get their Ticket with MONEY, hope this is not the case.
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,379, Reputation: 2280
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    #4

    May 14, 2009, 04:16 PM

    The problem with the bottom half of any class is they graduate too, most of them. I wish the pilots license was posted on every plane with their class standing in big bold print.
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #5

    May 15, 2009, 05:01 AM

    Before Flying we would do "I'M SAFE" to see if up to flying.
    I lness
    M edication
    S tress
    A ttitude
    F atigue
    E motion.
    When I was getting screwed by a Local Jerk Real Estate Company. I would try the "I'm Safe" before flying, all I came up with is "I'm Stressed!", and wouldn't fly.
    When you do it for a living, and supporting a family, and you may loose your job if you don't fly, I think forces some to compromise Safety.
    dayslug24's Avatar
    dayslug24 Posts: 62, Reputation: 5
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    #6

    May 18, 2009, 05:30 AM
    I think the f.o. should have been in the left seat for that one.
    I think It's a classic human factors case - We may know what to do if we are answering it on a test sitting in a classroom, but we sometimes loose sense and panic in a sudden situation and
    Make the wrong reflex action.
    I have seen a good case in point when a mx crew was performing high power runs in winter with ice on ramp and aircraft pointing toward a hanger about 200 feet away.( This would be the very first dumb mistake) The chocks slid, of course and a/c just pushed them out of the way, sliding on ice even though brakes were locked. The airplane smashed through the closed hanger doors and luckily for the heavy check mx workers inside, the plane's wings hung up on what was left of the hanger doors.
    The astonishing part of this was that both engines were still at max T/O power at this point.
    A mx mechanic from INSIDE THE HANGER jumped into the cockpit and shut the engines down. At this time, the 3 mechanics that were performing the engine run were still trying to figure out why they had no brakes. They were so stunned that they did not do the first logical action, which would be shut the engines down. I listened to the cvr of this, and its scary how these guys, well trained engine run mechanics, reacted.
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #7

    May 18, 2009, 05:50 AM

    Panic has to be the worse enemy.
    ericjon's Avatar
    ericjon Posts: 3, Reputation: 2
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    #8

    May 28, 2009, 09:36 AM
    A commercial pilot is fully capable and has full knowledge about stalls, stall characteristics, stall recovery from various attitudes in various aircraft. Here are a couple thoughts about the Dash 8 accident in Boston and accidents in general. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye.

    (I have to double check the NTSB report; this is from what I heard from fellow pilots)

    This stall spin accident happened at night, most likely in IMC in severe icing conditions. Challenging conditions to say the least.

    Accidents are most often not caused by one singular event, but a chain of events that lead to a catastrophic result.

    There are numerous factors that could have put this crew in a position where recovering from the stall would be virtually impossible if not impossible. Such as improper use of
    Anti-ice and de-ice equipment to improper use of automation (autopilot). Incorrrect interpretation of the flight instruments leading to improper control inputs. Distractions in the cockpit can seriously interfere with decision making processes and crew coordination.

    An airplane that departs normal flight at night in IMC with instruments that may or may not have been displaying correct information, is at low altitude, heavy with ice, is a bad situtation for any pilot to be in.

    How does a commercial pilot not know how to recover from a stall? They do, but while quick and proper action by the PIC may have saved the day, stall recovery tecnique was not the cause of the accident. We will discover several factors that lead up to this catstrophic accident.

    I don't know who first said this but it is so true and I pass it on to my students. "Takeoffs are optional, landings are manditory." Which means before we get to the plane, before we leave the ground we practice good aeronautical decision making and risk management.

    Grace and peace to families, friends and loved ones.

    EJ
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #9

    May 28, 2009, 02:53 PM

    I agree there was other factors. What your Brain thinks and what your Instruments say, can appear to be 2 different things.
    I did Chopper traing in Vegas by a Pilot with the initials R.P. about 30 year ago. Great instructor.
    FlyYakker's Avatar
    FlyYakker Posts: 378, Reputation: 41
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    #10

    May 28, 2009, 04:55 PM

    Aside from the low altitude and instrument flight conditions, the aerodynamics of the plane were likely so fouled up by ice that recovery would have been difficult anyway.

    As noted, there were other factors leading up to the problem.
    gianmaria's Avatar
    gianmaria Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Jun 3, 2009, 03:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ballengerb1 View Post
    Let's start with how he failed several tests so he's likely in the bottom half of his class.
    Every pilot has failed checkrides, and it makes you a better pilot, not a worse one, for the experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballengerb1 View Post
    My question is what idiot placed him in seat #1 to begin with.
    The NTSB hearings have made it clear that fatigue was probably a factor. I think a better question is: what A**hole is paying pilots so little that they have to commute across the continent to work, because they can't afford to live in domicile?
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #12

    Jun 3, 2009, 03:56 PM

    Corporate Greed, Maximum profit. Money being Bottom Line.
    I feel comfortable with 2 Airlines, that I know of, that I feel, Safety is "Botttom Line", Not the dollar.
    Flying Blue Eagle's Avatar
    Flying Blue Eagle Posts: 2,056, Reputation: 225
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    #13

    Jun 4, 2009, 11:14 PM
    To all of you -- you all have come up with some very important questions and answers to the problem : What about the air liner that{ flew past}it's destanation < a/c was on auto pilot and crew {all} was asleep??
    I know being up there for up to 18 hrs at a time in the b-$& jet bomber it got pretty hetic and fategu was high: : Good going guys :: Stay safe and keep her between the clouids ::happy flying ::f.b.e.
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #14

    Jun 5, 2009, 01:58 AM

    FBE,
    How about an Alarm clock set prior to reaching Destination? One may have save them.
    Flying Blue Eagle's Avatar
    Flying Blue Eagle Posts: 2,056, Reputation: 225
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    #15

    Jun 5, 2009, 12:19 PM

    STRATMANDO- I don't remember which one of the airlines it was but it seem like it was DELTA AIR LINES. That's A GIOOD IDEA :MAYBE WE SHOULD RECONMEND IT TO ALL THE AIR LINES::HSAHAHAHA
    HAVE A GREAT DAY STRAT: GLAD YOUEER DOING OK TALK TO YOU LATER EAGLE1 OUT
    F.B.E.
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #16

    Jun 5, 2009, 12:50 PM

    Although we're joking, may not be a bad Idea. Sure couldn't hurt.
    Could be with GPS, so when within so many miles to the Airport, alarm/buzzer sounds.
    NO SNOOZE BUTTON! Take Care
    Flying Blue Eagle's Avatar
    Flying Blue Eagle Posts: 2,056, Reputation: 225
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    #17

    Jun 7, 2009, 09:55 PM
    To all on this thread

    To you all on this thread [AMEN ]
    ON my post above I hit the wrong keys it was susposed to be { B-47 jet bomber } Yopual have a great day and stay between the clouds unless you are {Ifr} F.B.E.:):rolleyes:
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #18

    Jun 8, 2009, 07:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Blue Eagle View Post
    To you all on this thread [AMEN ]
    ON my post above I hit the wrong keys it was susposed to be { B-47 jet bomber } Yopual have a great day and stay between the clouds unless you are {Ifr} F.B.E.:):rolleyes:
    I had figured that and seen what numbers corresponded with the Characters.
    Came up with B47, Didn't know if it was code?
    Flying Blue Eagle's Avatar
    Flying Blue Eagle Posts: 2,056, Reputation: 225
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    #19

    Jun 22, 2009, 10:19 PM

    STRATMANDO- I never learned to type, when I was in school it was't taught;I guess they didn't think that ,those new fangled things would be used later in the century [ FUTURE}
    I have been trying to learn but my fingers have gotten to stiff ,so I hunt and peck as the saying goes; BUT I'm trying ;;CLUCK CLUCK
    HAVE a great day tomorrow and GOD BLESS
    Thumbs up ;;F.B.E.

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