The following answer is from another website. I don't know how many interviews like this one I've seen on TV. An odd correlation is that they often tend to be Trump cultists. (Maybe not so odd.....)

Answer:

Yes, and mind numbingly stupid. I was actually watching open mouthed an interview yesterday of two nurses who would rather lose their jobs than vaccinate.

They both were asking for religious exemptions. They were Catholic. But the pope had the vaccination and is encouraging Catholics to get it.

One nurse said, "Well, the pope was elected, he’s a hypocrite and he’s not following the Bible."

Huh? This woman knows more about the Bible than the Pope! Just like she knows more about infectious disease than doctors and researchers.

The other woman couldn’t answer a straight question, she wanted to talk about how the statistics were fake, how people who had brain cancer were being listed as dying of cancer. And it was an international conspiracy to keep the real numbers hidden.

She apparently doesn’t know there’s an immediate cause of death and a contributory cause and both are put on the death certificate: immediate-pneomonia, contributory-liver cancer. Immediate-covid, contributory-brain cancer.

She also felt betrayed because at the beginning of the pandemic, nurses were heroes and now she’s being marginalized.

But she’s never going to give up speaking the truth! She wants her children and grandchildren to know she fought. She had tears in her eyes and her voice trembled.

Her grandchildren are likely to be embarrassed and ashamed of her and wish that interview had never been shown on national news.


The above is one of the milder responses of anti-vaxxers. Many are truly bizarre - from aliens placing chips in our bodies with the vaccine to the vaccine being created by Bill Gates so he could take over the world.

Pretty tame compared to what AOC has said.

1. Wanted to do away with ICE.
2. Wanted to do away with DHS.
3. She once tweeted, "It is well past time we eliminate the Electoral College, a shadow of slavery’s power on America today that undermines our nation as a democratic republic,” Huh? What does the electoral college have to do with slavery?
4. Upon losing the Amazon headquarters, $27 billion in taxes and 25 ,000 jobs, AOC tweeted, ”Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, every day New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate green, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world.” So losing jobs is a good thing?
5. AOC sad, “Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. Unemployment is low because people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and can barely feed their family.” Politifact corrected her outrageous claims. The average number of hours worked in the private sector has been about 34.5 hours a week since 2006,
6. She exhibited her knowledge of government. “If we work our butts off to make sure that we take back all three chambers of Congress – rather, all three chambers of government: the presidency, the Senate, and the House,” AOC said in a conference call to a political action committee.
7. AOC predicted, “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change, and your biggest issue is, your, your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?” If she can find someone else to believe that, that will make two people on the earth who do.

Not sure why we worry about a few anti-vaxxers exercising their freedom when a liberal dem like AOC is actually engaged in making laws.

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2019/03/12/stupid-is-as-stupid-does/

There are multiple reasons why people are reluctant to take the covid vaccine To lump them into a generalization as selfish is wrong and unpersuasive . It is equally wrong to generalize about their politics. As a percent of the population Blacks and Hispanics lag behind whites in the population vaxxed. So is it safe to conclude that the unvaxxed minorities are "Trump cultists " (whatever than means ) ?


I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment ,disproportionately target minorities also .


Criticizing , blaming, punishing and shaming will not help if your goal is to get more people vaccinated . Forget far out reasoning like alien probes etc . That is an extremely small group of those who resist the covid vax. The rest have reasoned concerns , Does it make sense that someone would want to avoid putting unknown chemicals in their body? Is it reasonable not to fully trust the pharmaceutical industry? Isn't it true that we have only short term data on the effects and side effects of the vaccines, if only because the trials began less than two years ago. We are learning new things every day about the long term effects of having covid, So it is reasonable to have concerns about the vax side effects .

Otherwise healthy people under fifty have figured out that their level of risk is extremely low. "My body, my choice." They put no one at risk but themselves, so I don't know why it's anyone's business but their own.

There are multiple reasons why people are reluctant to take the covid vaccine To lump them into a generalization as selfish is wrong and unpersuasive .

You're right. My examples, admittedly far out, were hyperbolic to demonstrate a larger point. The bulk of anti-vaxxers are ill-informed and reluctant to learn. Blacks are a special case.

Putting unknown chemicals in your body is pretty much what Trump suggested early on. Based on video interviews and other statistics (which I won't cite since you won't read them), I maintain that Trump cultists are the largest anti-vax demographic. They are a cult since they follow Trump no matter what he does or says - it is a blind allegiance to a man who is clearly unhinged - a madman. That is what a cult is.


I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment disproportionately target minorities also

That may be true, but what is the alternative?


Criticizing , blaming, punishing and shaming will not help if your goal is to get more people vaccinated

Treating anti-vaxxers as intelligent adults has not worked. They are a danger to themselves and, more importantly, to others including their own friends and families. Blaming/punishing/shaming has worked better than persuasion.


Is it reasonable not to fully trust the pharmaceutical industry? Isn't it true that we have only short term data on the effects and side effects of the vaccines, if only because the trials began less than two years ago.

It is far more reasonable to trust the science than not to. A great amount of information is now available based on the nearly 4 BILLION people who have been vaccinated. There has been nothing like it in history.

I maintain that Trump cultists are the largest anti-vax demographic. They are a cult since they follow Trump no matter what he does or says - it is a blind allegiance to a man who is clearly unhinged - a madman. That is what a cult is.

And yet it was Trump who fast tracked getting the vax to the public . As I recall it was the Dem politicians that were demagoguing the vaccine including VP Kam the Sham who said she would not get vaxxed because it was a Trump deal ... talk about bizarro reasoning !


I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment disproportionately target minorities also


That may be true, but what is the alternative? No government mandates .



Blaming/punishing/shaming has worked better than persuasion.

Speaking for myself ,I did not get vaxxed until I had a series of discussions with a doctor who was not a traditional practitioner and applies alternate medical care . None of the above methods of "persuasion " would have worked on me . I came from the pharmaceutical industry and know that not everything is for the best scientific reason.

I give you Merck as example A . They have a perfectly good therapeutic drug on the market that is inexpensive and available as a covid anti-viral treatment .They have actively suppressed it's use so they could fast track their new much more expensive covid drug that they also happen to have a $1.2 billion agreement with the government to supply.

I have seen NDAs approved after FDA officials were bribed . The doctor I spoke of does not have a shelf full of samples given to him by industry detail people to push on his patients . The industry spends an average of $20,000 per doctor annually marketing drugs to them . That included the samples I mentioned ,and gifts and perks for scripting the drug to patients . And I've only mentions a few of the institutional corruption practices . So someone like me may be a skeptic . I'm sure those health care providers you dismiss as kooks have similar such tales .


There has been nothing like it in history.
exactly
The incidents of drugs being rushed to the market only later to be recalled is extensive . I don't have to go as far back as the thalidomide disaster . I'm talking relatively recent examples
Valdecoxib lasted about 4 years .It is an anti-inflammatory. Then it was recalled because it was causing heart attack, and stroke ,and deaths and a slew of other side effects .
Pemoline used to treat ADHD , after 5 years recalled because it caused liver damage
Vioxx another anti-inflammatory recalled because it caused heart attacks . It was given to over 20 million patients .
Accutane was given to treat acne . It was recalled because it caused birth defects ;miscarriages premature deaths and suicides .
Meridia an appetite suppressant . Recalled because heart attacks and strokes .
Rezulin used to treat diabetes . Recalled because it caused liver failure and death.
Raptiva used to treat psoriasis . Recalled because it damaged the brain and neverous system .

I became convinced it is worth the risk . I don't blame those who take a different view .

That may be true, but what is the alternative?


No government mandates .Absolutely true. Isn't it amazing that acts which result in clear discrimination against minorities are simply in the "That may be true," category when being orchestrated by liberal dems? No big deal!

And yet it was Trump who fast tracked getting the vax to the public

Only after far too long of dissing the whole Covid-19 situation causing hundreds of thousands of deaths by his inaction.


As I recall it was the Dem politicians that were demagoguing the vaccine including VP Kam the Sham who said she would not get vaxxed because it was a Trump deal ... talk about bizarro reasoning !

Your recollection is wrong! The Dems never demagogued the vaccine and Harris said, accurately after Trump's bizarro statements re COVID, that she would never take a TRUMP vaccine. Neither would I - especially one filled with fish tank cleaner or disinfectant. The bizarro is all Trump's who finally DID take the approved vaccine and kept it a secret.


No government mandates

A solution that is worse than the problem.


Speaking for myself ,I did not get vaxxed until I had a series of discussions with a doctor

Good for you. No objection to that. If every denier did that, we'd be ahead of the game.


I give you Merck as example A . They have a p ............................ their new much more expensive covid drug ..... The industry spends an average of $20,000 per doctor annually marketing drugs to them .................... corruption practices

I don't deny the industry, like all industries, has its share of screwups - honestly and otherwise. How do the examples you noted compare to the successes?


I'm sure those health care providers you dismiss as kooks have similar such tales

I never said I dismissed health care providers as kooks. Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. That was done consistently by another here, and it is quite annoying, especially when it becomes habitual. I have the highest regard for health care providers.


I became convinced it is worth the risk . I don't blame those who take a different view .

Your conviction is admirable, but it is the exception. I DO blame those who refuse to get the vaccine for the flimsiest of reasons based on ignorance and misplaced politics.

Reality check . Covid is here to stay. It cannot be eradicated with vaccines , It will eventually mutate to a less serious virus because that serves it's purpose . Flu in all it's variants, and the 4 coronaviruses that make up the common cold are also endemic .Acquired immunity ,memory B cells and T cells over time has brought us to a point that we tolerate the seasonal deaths and illnesses without requiring mandatory vaxxing , lockdowns, masks and social distancing. That will also happen with covid and all the hand wringing won't change that .

What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians
who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext

Perhaps a better question would have been, "Are mandatory vaxxers tyrants?"

Perhaps a better question would have been, "Are mandatory vaxxers tyrants?"
What do you suggest regarding vaxxing?

What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext
"Give me liberty and possibly death!"

I would quote Franklin but it is too obvious . I guess our deal with the government is Faustian . We empower them to provide safety and then they use that to enslave us . That was Franklin's warning in his famous quote .

All the framers had that concern too.

It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. (Federalist 51 Hamilton and Madison )

What do I suggest? I suggest people take the vax. I know of no good reason not to other than the distinct possibility that some long term effects might show up. But I absolutely encourage those who don't want to take it to stand their ground and not take it, and that would especially include the under 40 crowd and those who have already had and survived Covid. In my relatively small state alone, that's about a half million.

The bottom line is this. It is strictly a personal decision. You put no one at risk other than yourself and anyone else who has chosen not to be vaxed. I have no idea why it is any business of the government.


"Give me liberty and possibly death!"That was, in fact, an entirely accurate description of the situation the men in the Continental Army found themselves. Liberty is always less safe but far more satisfying and filled with potential.

I have no idea why it is any business of the government.
Thank goodness the government doesn't force us to wear seatbelts! Or get a driver's license! Or get ID for voting! Or demand MMR/polio/DPT etc. vaccinations for our children!

force us to wear seatbelts!Was a terrible idea from the beginning. Why is it someone else's business if I choose not to wear a seatbelt?


Or get a driver's license!Completely different situation. It is certainly the other driver's concern for me to have demonstrated an ability to drive safely and to be forced to help pay for safety on the highways.


Or get ID for voting!Same thing. It is everyone's business that we have elections that are not corrupted. Check out 2020 for evidence.


Or demand MMR/polio/DPT etc. vaccinations for our children!Kind of debatable. The government says it has the authority to force parents to do what is in the best interest of their children. My chief objection would be the concept of the slippery slope upon which, predictably, we find ourselves now.

It's a very simple principle. Is this largely a personal decision with consequences which primarily impact me and me alone, or can the gov demonstrate a genuine public reason for concern with my actions? So a good way to frame it is this. How would my refusal to do XXXXX affect Wondergirl? If that answer is basically, "in no way", then the gov should mind its own business and let me mind mine.

So a good way to frame it is this. How would my refusal to do XXXXX affect Wondergirl? If that answer is basically, "in no way", then the gov should mind its own business and let me mind mine.
NO, not WG. How would your refusal affect your relatives/friends/neighbors, those who drive on the same roads you do, the children and teachers your own children interact with?

Fair enough. It's really the same principle. But it has to be a direct impact and not simply indirect. If not, then I could say, "How WG spends her money affects, in many ways, her entire community. Therefore the government has a vested interest in telling her how to spend her money."

Fair enough. It's really the same principle. But it has to be a direct impact and not simply indirect.
Those direct impacts without seat belts can be killers! That unvaccinated kid with whooping cough who's coughing on my kid has a direct impact on him. Guess how quickly chicken pops can run through a school if no vaccinations.

If not, then I could say, "How WG spends her money affects, in many ways, her entire community. Therefore the government has a vested interest in telling her how to spend her money."
I pay both state and federal taxes.

Those direct impacts without seat belts can be killersNot to other people. Only to the driver or any other passenger choosing not to click it.


That unvaccinated kid with whooping cough who's coughing on my kid has a direct impact on him. Guess how quickly chicken pops can run through a school if no vaccinations.Not if your kid is vaxed. It's really very simple.


I pay both state and federal taxes.I was not talking even one small bit about taxes.

Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those businesses all suffer indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom to spend your money elsewhere. However, I suspect you would have no problem with it.

Not to other people. Only to the driver or any other passenger choosing not to click it.
Ever hear of t-boning? rear-ending? front-end crashes? All can be deadly even for the drivers/passengers wearing seatbelts.

Not if your kid is vaxed. It's really very simple.
Why would my kid get vaxxed? It's a government plot.

I was not talking even one small bit about taxes.
Paying taxes to state and federal governments is a legal requirement.

Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those are all indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom on how to spend your own money.
This isn't part of the discussion, doesn't happen.

I suspect you would have no trouble with it.
Please stop. Right now.

from Tomder
What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext



"Give me liberty and possibly death!"

Brilliant!

Ever hear of t-boning? rear-ending? front-end crashes? All can be deadly even for the drivers/passengers wearing seatbelts.Ever hear of minding your own business? How is that any concern of yours?

This question remains, very pertinent and very unanswered. Wonder why? If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money? Why are you so fearful of answering questions?

Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those are all indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom on how to spend your own money.

Ever hear of minding your own business? How is that any concern of yours?
No concern of mine? Like people being vaxxed? I might be in one of those t-boned cars.

This question remains, very pertinent and very unanswered. Wonder why? If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money? Why are you so fearful of answering questions?
Fearful? I answered.

Then put on your seatbelt. Not complicated. Take care of you, and let other people be free to take care of themselves as they see fit.

You answered? Sure you did. "This isn't part of the discussion, doesn't happen." That's not an answer.

Here it is again.
This question remains, very pertinent and very unanswered. Wonder why? If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money? Why are you so fearful of answering questions?

Then put on your seatbelt. Not complicated. Take care of you, and let other people be free to take care of themselves as they see fit.
Seatbelted people have been badly injured and even killed when the car they're in was t-boned. Or rear-ended. Or front-ended.

You answered? Sure you did. "This isn't part of the discussion, doesn't happen." That's not an answer.
It. Doesn't. Happen. Name a for-instance.

Seatbelted people have been badly injured and even killed when the car they're in was t-boned.And that's your argument for the gov requiring seatbelts??? Well...OK then. "Wear seatbelts. Get killed in a wreck!"

Read the question carefully. You are completely missing it.


If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money?

And that's your argument for the gov requiring seatbelts??? Well...OK then. "Wear seatbelts. Get killed in a wreck!"

Read the question carefully. You are completely missing it.
You have totally gone off the track of your questions and my responses. 'Bye.

Still don't like answering questions? Well, you just don't get it. Too bad.

Still don't like answering questions? Well, you just don't get it. Too bad.
I. Answered. Every. One.

I don’t think you did, but it’s fine. Good night.


If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money?

Driving is not a right Driving comes with many preconditions for licensing and insuring . Other vaxes may eradicate the disease . Covid vax surely doesn't . It doesn't prevent getting the virus or transmitting the virus . The covid vax will eventuallly be like the flu vax with constant boosters required and constant tweaking of the formulation . A real $$$ bonanza for big pharm. and their government enablers ;and eventually will stop being a government freebee

from Tomder
What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext




https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Wondergirl https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3874771#post3874771)
"Give me liberty and possibly death!"



Brilliant!

more like ' obey or die ' Then maybe Herr Doctor Fauci will permit us to gather for Christmas as a reward for compliance . I'm more of a 'Live Free or Die 'type of a person
People who decide to skip getting vaxed are not anti-science ,Luddites or domestic terrorists .

Smallpox was fatal in up to 30% of cases . Covid less than 1% More people die from the annual flu than die from car crashes and yet the flu vaccine is not mandated .

Sweden Denmark halted the Moderns vax for people under 30 due to the adverse effects risks . Finland did for men under 30 . Why ? “The Swedish health agency said it would pause using the shot for people born in 1991 and later as data pointed to an increase of myocarditis and pericarditis among youths and young adults that had been vaccinated. Those conditions involve an inflammation of the heart or its lining. ‘The connection is especially clear when it comes to Moderna's vaccine Spikevax, especially after the second dose,’

Sweden, Denmark pause Moderna COVID-19 vaccine for younger age groups | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/sweden-pauses-use-moderna-covid-vaccine-cites-rare-side-effects-2021-10-06/)


The Moderna vax was available to me sooner . I declined . I waited until the Pfizer shot was available to make an appointment and stipulated that was the only one I would take. Pfizer received FDA approval .... Moderna's has not ;only emergency use authorization

This From the FDA


Reports of adverse events following use of the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine under emergency use authorization suggest an increased risk of thrombosis involving the cerebral venous sinuses and other sites (including but not limited to the large blood vessels of the abdomen and the veins of the lower extremities) combined with thrombocytopenia and with onset of symptoms approximately one to two weeks after vaccination.• Most cases of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia reported following the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have occurred in females ages 18 through 49 years; some have been fatal.• Specific risk factors for thrombosis with thrombocytopenia following the Janssen COVID19 Vaccine and the level of potential excess risk due to vaccination are under investigation.• Based on currently available evidence, a causal relationship between thrombosis with thrombocytopenia and the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine is plausible.

Janssen Letter Granting EUA Amendment (April 23, 2021) (valdezak.gov) (https://www.valdezak.gov/DocumentCenter/View/9414/65d2-Janssen-COVID-19-Vaccine-EUA-Letter-of-Authorization-Amendment-20210423?bidId=)

Smallpox was fatal in up to 30% of cases . Covid less than 1% More people die from the annual flu than die from car crashes and yet the flu vaccine is not mandated .That is at the core of my question to the mandatory vaxxers. What principle of governance are they applying? If the gov can mandate that I put a drug into my body, then why would it not also be able to do a great many other things not presently being done? It is the question for which I can get no answer, and I suspect it's because they have no idea what to say.

To the Dems it is about control and the covid "crisis " is a pretext. They have their climate change "crisis "warming up in the bull pen.

To the Dems it is about control and the covid "crisis " is a pretext. They have their climate change "crisis "warming up in the bull pen.

We KNOW the vaccine works. By denying its use in the name of liberty you are ensuring to help in its spread and mutation.

Yeah. We wouldn't want "we the people" making up their own minds about these things. How dare they!!

We KNOW the vaccine works.

You know nothing of the kind . At best you know that vaxxed people survive the virus better and are less likely to be hospitalized in the short term . What we do know is that ANY immunity that the Vax offers is short lived . That is why they now recommend boosters . Immunological studies have documented a steady decline of antibody levels among vaccinated individuals


However, the antibody levels declined at 12 weeks and 6 months post-vaccination, indicating a waning of the immune response over time. At 6 months after the second dose, the Spike antibody levels were similar to the levels in persons vaccinated with one dose or in COVID-19 convalescent individuals.

Dynamics of antibody response to BNT162b2 vaccine after six months: a longitudinal prospective study - ScienceDirect (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266677622100185X?via%3Dihub)


Interpretation

The mRNA vaccine induces a strong antibody response to SARS-CoV-2 and five VOCs at 1 week post-vaccination that decreases thereafter. T cell responses, although detectable in the majority, were lower in individuals with higher T cell immunosenescent The deterioration of vaccine response suggests the need to monitor for the potential booster vaccination.


Even Pfizer's unpublished study reached that conclusion, In 2030 we will be looking at our 10th booster jab and the world will not have yet reached either herd immunity or protection from the various mutated variants .(Already we are running out of Greek letters ) .
2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf (medrxiv.org) (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf)

The CDC reported in August that vaccine effectiveness among front line workers declined to 66% after the delta variant became dominant in the U.S., compared with 91% before it arose.
Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccines in Preventing SARS-CoV-2 Infection Among Frontline Workers Before and During B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant Predominance — Eight U.S. Locations, December 2020–August 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov) (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm?s_cid=mm7034e4_w)

Measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox ,small pox hardly mutate at all, but at least eight variants of the Sars covid have already been detected . You are living in a delusional pipe dream if you believe that the vax is the solution . You are the tilter of windmills if you think so.

You are living in a delusional pipe dream if you believe that the vax is the solution

That world of delusion I live in is inhabited by every epidemiologist on the planet. Good company, I'd say.

good thing they are not our elected leaders then. Epidemiologists don't have to concern themselves about the balance of public safety and individual liberty . They are more like Herr Doctor Fauci dressing up like the Soup Nazi for Halloween ... " No Christmas For You " !!!!!!!

https://i.imgflip.com/3ytd75.jpg

The only options right now are to make the pandemic somehow less serious in the future than it is now. The vax would seem to be part of that plan, but if we all wake up in five years with an extra hand growing out one of our ears, then it might look a little different. Now that is facetious, but other long term health problems are certainly possible.

good thing they are not our elected leaders then. Epidemiologists don't have to concern themselves about the balance of public safety and individual liberty . They are more like Herr Doctor Fauci dressing up like the Soup Nazi for Halloween ... " No Christmas For You " !!!!!!!

I'm always amazed at how the fringe right treats this decent public servant like a Nazi. If you're looking for a Nazi, look no further than Mar-a-Lago.

What I dont understand is if it is so bad not to get the shot then why did they start exempting people from getting it like the postal service ?

Welcome Cdad.

Thank you. It has been a long time since I logged in.

What I dont understand is if it is so bad not to get the shot then why did they start exempting people from getting it like the postal service ? This is a case where the compliant press' fact checkers did not fact check their own . The Washington Compost's Jacob Bogage

I understand however where he screwed up . Quid with the spine of a jelly fish did not want to alienate a powerful union . So he "forgot " to mention the postal workers have to comply to his EO . The cover was that although Quid did not say the postal workers had to comply ;that in fact they had to comply with OSHA directives. Technically they are not directly hired by the government and that is where the confusion came from.

The reporter buried the correction in the paper and did a tweet .

26 fire houses in NYC are not operating due to vax mandate staffing shortages. WTG Sandinista Bill ! Fire fighters rather than getting the vax or get fired have opted to stage sick outs. They are going to use all their benefit time before getting canned . Keep in mind that these essential workers stayed on the job while the city was being ravaged by covid to a point that tent hospitals were set up in Central Park ;an emergency hospital was set up in the Javits Center , hospitals in Brooklyn were lining up meat trucks to cold storage corpses ,and the US government sent a hospital ship to the city .
They are being rewarded for their heroic actions with the threat of being fired for refusing an experimental medical procedure Maybe firefighters capable of protecting the citie complicated structures are simply a dime a dozen and easily replaceable with volunteers from Long Island and Westchester . But I don't think so.

They are being rewarded for their heroic actions with the threat of being fired for refusing an experimental medical procedure

What is the experimental medical procedure they are refusing?

I don't care that the FDA was pressured to give the vaccines full approval . The clinical trials the FDA typically will rely on to decide whether to license often last for two years or longer to collect adequate data to establish that the vaccines are safe and effective enough for the FDA to license.

I don't care that the FDA was pressured to give the vaccines full approval . The clinical trials the FDA typically will rely on to decide whether to license often last for two years or longer to collect adequate data to establish that the vaccines are safe and effective enough for the FDA to license.

According to you, the paperwork wasn't done so the vaccination program is an "experimental medical procedure" that firefighters should refuse.

I can hardly find words to describe this comment.

Le the facts speak for themselves: In 2021, a month after the US began administering the COVID vaccine, 99.5% of deaths from the virus were from the unvaccinated. That includes the Delta variant.

In 2021, a month after the US began administering the COVID vaccine, 99.5% of deaths from the virus were from the unvaccinated. That includes the Delta variant.Age is still the greatest contributor. As CDC data below shows clearly, those unvaccinated and over 65 are far and away at greatest risk. For those below 65, even for the unvaxed, the death rates plummet. As MLK said, "Let freedom ring." An unvaxed person only puts him/herself and any other unvaxed person they might come in contact with at risk. I would recommend they take the vaccination, but mandates? Not hardly.



https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

NYC is going to be very sad when NYPD officers opt to go t work for a welcoming Suffolk County where they will not be forced to take a vax they don't want.

People are very slow to learn. Detroit, after sixty years of democrat mayors, has lost 60% of its population. Entire square miles of once thriving neighborhoods now are filled with grasslands. It's one of the sad events of our time, and yet they still insist on voting in liberal dem mayors and city councils. Unreal.

NYC is going to be very sad when NYPD officers opt to go t work for a welcoming Suffolk County where they will not be forced to take a vax they don't want.

In that case, they can continue endangering themselves and everyone they come in contact with including their families and friends. Seems like a drastic decision to lose their job because of a vaccine they don't want to take. What's next - refusing to pay taxes because they don't want to be forced to pay?

They will have jobs with equal pay initially and better pay as they get tenure .They will be in a community that respects law enforcement and their right to make medical decisions will not be violated .
Suffolk hiring over 700 cops, including possible NYPD officers (nypost.com) (https://nypost.com/2021/10/31/suffolk-hiring-over-700-cops-including-possible-nypd-officers/)

In that case, they can continue endangering themselves and everyone they come in contact with including their families and friends.Except that is not true. Only the unvaxed family and friends would be put in danger. They could choose to take the vax if they wanted.

their right to make medical decisions will not be violated .

I wonder if their children will be forced to be vaccinated for school violating their right to make medical decisions.

do they mandate vax for the flu ? That would be the question . What other corona virus do they mandate vax for ? They don't because it would be silly to do so .

do they mandate vax for the flu ? That would be the question . What other corona virus do they mandate vax for ? They don't because it would be silly to do so .
Vaccinations and boosters are required for MMR, polio, chicken pox, whopping cough, tetanus, and many other diseases/conditions. Why not covid-19?

Those are all proven vaccines. Covid 19 is not, and there is also not a compelling reason for otherwise healthy children to be vaxed.

That would be the question .

The question was about kids getting shots to attend school. Does that violate the right to make medical decisions?

yes but it depends on the shots you are talking about . A shot for a corona virus would not fall into that category. SCOTUS original decision on mandatory vax was a question if the state has the power to fine for refusal (jacobson v Mass,) . The court then used this case to expand vax mandates for schools in Zucht v King .

I am understanding of the principle of protecting the people when a virus that can be eradicated by a proven effective vaccine becomes mandated . That is not the case with covid . Not only can people vaxed get covid ;they can pass it along . Covid mutates rapidly and the only argument that is made for mandating the vax is the mortality rate . That in school aged kids is a rare event . In fact ;covid mortality is less than 1% among all people .
So your mandates are more about political power than the science .

I am understanding of the principle of protecting the people when a virus that can be eradicated by a proven effective vaccine becomes mandated . That is not the case with covid

In 2021, 99% of the Covid deaths have come from the unvaccinated. Isn't that an argument for its proven effectiveness?


Not only can people vaxed get covid ;they can pass it along

It's true there are breakthrough cases and that they can be transmitted, but they are very rare and very mild when they occur not resulting in hospitalization or death.


Covid mutates rapidly and the only argument that is made for mandating the vax is the mortality rate

That is not the only argument but it is a helluva good one.


That in school aged kids is a rare event

That was true in the beginning, but it is much less true now. Plus kids can pass the virus along to their families. Anyway, should kids health be subject to a gamble?


In fact ;covid mortality is less than 1% among all people

760,000+ dead and growing. Far more than the annual flu. Plus long Covid effects are still unknown. 14%+ infection cases in the US so far. That's almost 50 million people - not a small number. It will diminish as more get vaccinated.


So your mandates are more about political power than the science .

I don't buy the argument that vaccines are more about politics than science. That was Trump's position and even his own Dr. Birx said Trump's lackadaisical attitude was responsible for 200,000 deaths. Other than Trump, it's always been about science.

Anyway, should kids health be subject to a gamble?You mean like riding in buses, or riding in cars, or not getting the flu vax, or playing on swingsets, or playing with dogs, or riding bikes, or getting a Covid vaccine that is not yet fully vetted?

NY Giants had 13 positive covid cases Tuesday . When they were RE-tested today only 1 of the coaches tested positive .
Giants had a dozen false positive COVID test results? | Yardbarker (https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/giants_had_a_dozen_false_positive_covid_test_resul ts/s1_127_36327803)

How many false positives were thereon a global level that weren't re-tested, and taken as positive covid cases ?

“We got vaccines that help you with your health, but they only slightly reduce transmission.” (Bill Gates )

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD2qhKJVEAEvyXy?format=jpg&name=small

A unanimous 3 judge panel at the 5th Circuit Court ruled that the vax mandate "grossly exceeds OSHA's statutory authority" and that the mandate "raises serious constitutional concerns."
Biden business vaccine mandate: Court calls requirements 'fatally flawed' (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/13/federal-appeals-court-calls-biden-vaccine-mandate-fatally-flawed-and-staggeringly-overbroad-.html)

The appeals court was responding to several lawsuits challenging the vaccine mandate, including complaints by businesses, employees, and five states (Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah), all of which are now consolidated under the heading BST Holdings v OSHA .
Back in 1989 before OSHA was governed by hysterical ninnies they decided that "health in general is an intensely personal matter," and OSHA prefers to encourage, rather than try to force by governmental coercion, employee cooperation in [a] vaccination program.. The same is true when OSHA issued covid recommendations in June .
Federal Register :: Occupational Exposure to COVID-19; Emergency Temporary Standard (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/21/2021-12428/occupational-exposure-to-covid-19-emergency-temporary-standard)
It was Quid that decided to go against OSHA recommendations after he had said he would not issue such a mandate .
The court correctly points out that the goal is not public safety as much as the government's desire to ramp up vaccinations by any means necessary .
"After the President voiced his displeasure with the country's vaccination rate in September, the Administration pored over the U.S. Code in search of authority, or a 'work-around,' for imposing a national vaccine mandate. The vehicle it landed on was an OSHA ETS."
The court also concluded that the 5th Circuit says, the ETS "likely exceeds the federal government's authority under the Commerce Clause, because it regulates noneconomic inactivity [i.e., the decision to forgo vaccination] that falls squarely within the States' police power."..... "concerns over separation of powers principles cast doubt over the Mandate's assertion of virtually unlimited power to control individual conduct under the guise of a workplace regulation.".

And that is what all the covid rules have come down to ;government power over the individual in the guise of public safety .

This judicial smackdown is so overwhelming that it’s fair to conclude the Administration gave only passing thought to the law. It acted for political reasons, but even that has proven to be a mistake. The White House panicked amid the Afghanistan fiasco and Delta variant breakout, but it missed how resistant millions of people are to government orders regarding their health.
The mandates have increased political polarization, and they are becoming less popular as people see that the vaccines, while effective, do not prevent infection as well as we might have hoped. They are still worth getting, but it ought to be a personal choice. Mr. Biden chose the progressive default of coercion.
This is typical of his Presidency, and it’s one reason he has sunk in the polls. The Administration says it plans to continue defending the mandate but it will almost certainly lose if a challenge makes it to the Supreme Court. The Covid scourge has given government a political excuse to exceed its legal powers, and it’s vital that the courts rein it in for liberty’s sake.


An Illegal Vaccine Mandate - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-illegal-vaccine-mandate-fifth-circuit-osha-covid-work-employees-11636921717?mod=opinion_lead_pos1)

Sandinista Bill is putting the knife in the back of the fledging NYC economy as a goodby FU

He is doing a private business vax mandate . He says that Omicron is not in NYC yet in any meaningful numbers He is doing the mandate as a preventive .Already 90% of residents have had the jab. But that is not good enough for the dictator. About 184,000 private businesses will now have to enforce his dictate .

And this is a hard mandate .There is no testing provision as an alternative for those who object. He will evidently allow for religious and medical exemptions he sees are valid .

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AARzlGf.img?h=416&w=799&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

In 2020, there were 385,343 COVID deaths .

2021 with the benefit of vaccines and other interventions 404,926 and counting .

Where is the guy on this board who incessantly accused Trump of being responsible for hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths? Does Biden carry any responsibility, or does he get a pass since he's a liberal dem?

In 2020, there were 385,343 COVID deaths .

2021 with the benefit of vaccines and other interventions 404,926 and counting .

Thats some pretty dishonest math Tom, and seems to be intentionally so, and can you deny the right wing loony noise machine contributes greatly to the continued covid crisis? I guess you have the right to spin facts and reality any way you want, as others can exercise the right to reject your spin.

These are the numbers as of October 6th, so the figures for 2021 would be higher by now.


As of Wednesday, U.S. localities have reported 353,000 deaths since January 1, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html).

That surpasses the 352,000 deaths reported in 2020 in the 10 months following the first recorded domestic outbreaks of the disease in March.
Sure makes Tom's figures look believable, especially considering it comes from Johns Hopkins. I have occasionally disagreed with some of Tom's conclusions, but his data is generally right on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2021/10/06/us-covid-19-deaths-for-2021-surpass-toll-from-2020/?sh=16f188806cc2

glad to see you here

I got the info right from the CDC .

CDC COVID Data Tracker (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_totaldeaths)

and explain how you think that the "right wing loony noise machine contributes" .
Americans are getting vaccinated ....over 200 million fully vaccinated so far . Oh I know the left would love to pin all blame of covid cases on conservatives . But the facts get in the way .

UNITED STATES CASES
Updated Dec 11 at 10:52 AM local


Confirmed
49,846,943

Deaths
796,943

-- Johns Hopkins stats
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu

Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Illinois, and Indiana are the top six states for increased COVID-19 hospitalizations, together accounting for about 60% of new beds added over the past month.
Blue states lead rise in COVID hospitalizations despite harsh pandemic restrictions | Just The News (https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/4-6-states-increased-covid-hospitalizations-are-democrat-governed)

Tom said 385,343 COVID deaths for 2020 and 404,926 so far in this year. Add those together and you get 790,269. WG said the total deaths for the two years combined is 796,943. Those two figures are very close, so what justification is there for questioning Tom's data? Just not following that thinking.

Those two figures are very close, so what justification is there for questioning Tom's data? Just not following that thinking.
I'm a librarian and a factchecker. It's worse than tomder posted. Why?

The great likelihood is that his figures came from a little earlier date than yours. But even at that, most people who work with stats realize that a 1% difference is not generally significant. It's a marginal difference not really pertinent to his point which is that deaths in 2021 are higher than the previous year despite the fact that we have the Trump vaccine this year.

I asked "why" -- not about the numbers, but why are deaths so high with all the vaccinating and boostering going on?

Great question. It would seem that the vaccine is perhaps not so effective as we had hoped. Perhaps Fauci is not so smart after all? Perhaps the Biden admin has not been effective? Perhaps the means of preventing the spread of the disease are not as effective as we were told as Tom's link above seems to illustrate? Perhaps we are just going to have to plow through this and accept that some deaths will occur? Perhaps science is not nearly so advanced as we have been told?

What are your thoughts?

We can discuss these things, but to question Tom's data is really foolish. He was clearly right. And yes, I realize that you have not done that. I am not referring to you. Perhaps surprisingly, I think your posts here have been very good. Did you expect me so say such a thing?

Great question. It would seem that the vaccine is perhaps not so effective as we had hoped.
Is the vaccine the problem -- or something else? Why do we get a flu shot every year? Why isn't one enough, like for chicken pox or rubella?

The flu of 1918 H1N1 so called Spanish flu was very deadly .It also mutated over and over again and never went away.It is now the seasonal flu . Every so often it becomes more severe as it combines with bird or swine flues . That happened in 1957, 1968 and 2009. Those pandemic events caused millions of deaths .

But this is the first time we have had so big a government overreaction.
SOME people get flu shots annually (about 52% in 2019) There are certainly no mandates to vax ,distance or mask for the annual flu .

The flu vax is about 45% effective . Some years more ;others less. Too early to gage the effectiveness of covid vax .Nobody knows for sure how many breakthrough cases there are .

Yet the seasonal flu isn't always deadly -- only if it infects both the upper and lower respiratory tract, causing pneumonia, or challenges other medical conditions due to age or a weakened immune system.

usually around 35,000 - 50,000 annually . Last year was less because everyone was taking extreme precautions for covid . American elderly are the least likely to get the flu but they are the most vulnerable . The flu vax prevented only 6,300 deaths 2019-2020 .
Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden Averted by Vaccination | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/past-burden-averted-est.html)

One of my favorite movie lines comes from the old western Conagher. "None of us is going to get out of this thing alive." He was speaking of life. Perhaps we think too much about extended years and not enough about a life of meaning.

There are more deaths in 2021 because of the new mutation delta (and, recently, omicron) plus the natural progression of the disease among the unvaccinated along with the refusal to force the unvaccinated to get the vaccine. When the government tries to save people, it's called "socialistic communism". Deaths in 2021 have been 95-99% among the unvaccinated. That should be proof of the value of vaccination.

Then thank goodness for the Trump vaccine. I'm all for people getting vaxed.

Still, there's something a little fishy about those figures. Minnesota, for instance, is 62% vaxed but has a very high covid infection rate. Florida, on the other hand, is only at 61% and yet is among the lowest states in infection rate. I just have a funny feeling that there is more to this than meets the data.

Infections are not deaths.

Hybrid immunity gives greater protection than vaccination . Vaxed AND Hybrid immunity offers greatest protection . That is why I got vaxxed . My body my choice.

Deaths last 7 days.

Minnesota. 256

Florida. 13

New York. 68% vaxed, 272 deaths the past 7 days.

There's more to it than just vaccinations.

Good ole Mississippi. 47% vaxed and 30 deaths last seven days.

Louisiana. 49% vaxed and 51 deaths.

Gotta mention one more. Only two states have zero deaths the past seven days. Oklahoma is one of them. Vax rate? 51%.

No secret the dem cities/states have the denser population which is a huge factor in calculating cases and mortality rates. Conservatives would have us believe EVERYBODY has a natural immunity which isn't the case. That's what makes right wing spin a crock of crap. Even crybaby Tucker Carlson blasting mandates by Joe hypocritical since his boss has it's own mandate policy in place, and has for a longtime.

Gotta mention one more. Only two states have zero deaths the past seven days. Oklahoma is one of them. Vax rate? 51%.
Have you ever been there? I have, once. Have avoided it ever since. Covid feels the same way.

What is missing in these offered stats of infections and deaths is that deaths occur far later then infections. To compare them on a weekly basis shows a basic misunderstanding how the pandemic works.

Infection leads to recovery OR sickness. Can take weeks.
Sickness leads to recovery OR hospitalization. Can take weeks.
Hospitalization leads to recovery OR ventilator. Can take weeks.
Ventilator leads to recovery or death. Can take weeks.

An infection may take months to end in death. The far better comparison is over a year's time to see the relation between infection and hospitalization/death.

The facts are that the unvaccinated represent roughly 95% of all deaths from COVID in the entire year of 2021. Deaths among the vaccinated are comparatively miniscule for the same time period.

What better argument to get vaccinated?

The far better comparison is over a year's time to see the relation between infection and hospitalization/death.That wasn't the comparison. The comparison was vax rate vs. deaths, or vax rate versus infections. I don't recall any attempt to establish a relationship between infections vs. deaths.

I think everyone here is in favor of people getting vaxed.

I think everyone here is in favor of people getting vaxed.
But but but God will protect me!!!

The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

Great Barrington Declaration (gbdeclaration.org) (https://gbdeclaration.org/)

What is missing in these offered stats of infections and deaths is that deaths occur far later then infections. To compare them on a weekly basis shows a basic misunderstanding how the pandemic works.

Infection leads to recovery OR sickness. Can take weeks.
Sickness leads to recovery OR hospitalization. Can take weeks.
Hospitalization leads to recovery OR ventilator. Can take weeks.
Ventilator leads to recovery or death. Can take weeks.

An infection may take months to end in death. The far better comparison is over a year's time to see the relation between infection and hospitalization/death.

The facts are that the unvaccinated represent roughly 95% of all deaths from COVID in the entire year of 2021. Deaths among the vaccinated are comparatively miniscule for the same time period.

What better argument to get vaccinated?


COVID-19 Infection Fatality Ratio is About 1.15%, (webmd.com) (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201030/covid-19-infection-fatality-ratio-is-about-one-point-15-percent)

The Democrat Guv of Colorado pronounced the obvious Friday He said the crisis is over .
The vax has been out for a year . Theraputics are available and more are scheduled to come on the market soon.


You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault. If you haven't been vaccinated, that's your choice. I respect that. But it's your fault when you're in the hospital with COVID.
Interview: Gov. Polis leaves mask mandates to local officials, says the state shouldn’t ‘tell people what to wear’ | Colorado Public Radio (cpr.org) (https://www.cpr.org/2021/12/10/interview-gov-jared-polis-mask-mandates-covid/)