Their refusal is the only thing preventing the end of the Covid pandemic in the US.

Their refusal is the only thing preventing the end of the Covid pandemic in the US. It is not that simple . The virus seems to mutate at a high rate . The vaccine does not prevent all infections or transmissions. Epidemiologists in 28 countries predict that the vaccines will be obsolete in a year .
Two-thirds of epidemiologists warn mutations could render current COVID vaccines ineffective in a year or less | Oxfam International (https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/two-thirds-epidemiologists-warn-mutations-could-render-current-covid-vaccines)

The incubator for the virus is in the developing world ;not the US . Delta and Lambda did not develop here . But here is where they landed and will land (Lambda aided by the Dem open border policy.)

The fight has to be at the source . So if anything the emphasis of vaccine distribution should be in the developing world . Also a new emphasis should be placed on treatments along with vaccines and boosters .

This virus is endemic similar to the flu and common cold and humans will have to adapt to that reality .

It is not that simple

Yeah, it's pretty simple.


The vaccine does not prevent all infections or transmissions.

The vaccine prevents 96% of the Delta variant. Not having a vaccine prevents ZERO infections.


The incubator for the virus is in the developing world ;not the US

The infection rate is higher in the US than in any other country.


Lambda aided by the Dem open border policy.

White Republicans make up the largest demographic of people in the U.S. who remain vaccine-avoiders with 53% saying they were not getting the vaccine. Democrats who have received the vaccine are 88%, far higher than Republicans.


The fight has to be at the source . So if anything the emphasis of vaccine distribution should be in the developing world

The fight is here and NOW. The possibility of a huge surge is looming, and will happen unless the vaccination rate accelerates. The emphasis for the US is in the US.

You'll be forever chasing your tail . The Delta ravaged India and other nations well before it came here . Vaccine protection remains very strong against severe disease and hospitalizations. But evidence is mounting that the Delta variant is capable of infecting fully vaccinated people at a greater rate than previous versions, and concerns have been raised that they may even spread the virus. You know this is true . Why would they not exclude the vaccinated from the mask mandates if vaxed people can't get it ?

The virus doesn't discriminate, what vaccination does is lessen the chances you will die from it

what vaccination does is lessen the chances you will die from itThat's true, but it's also true that the vaccines are very effective in preventing Covid. Not 100% by any means, but still very effective.

It doesn't prevent it with all variants, who knows with your attitude you might have it now

Very few things work all the time.

Very few things work all the time.
So let's make sure things don't work all the time.

You'll be forever chasing your tail . The Delta ravaged India and other nations well before it came here . Vaccine protection remains very strong against severe disease and hospitalizations. But evidence is mounting that the Delta variant is capable of infecting fully vaccinated people at a greater rate than previous versions, and concerns have been raised that they may even spread the virus. You know this is true . Why would they not exclude the vaccinated from the mask mandates if vaxed people can't get it ?

You're complicating something that is very simple.

GET VACCINATED AND SAVE LIVES AND DEFEAT THE COVID EPIDEMIC IN THE US.

The vaccines are not the problem. The problem is those who won't get vaccinated. Republicans are the largest group refusing vaccination. They are politicizing a deadly disease that should never be politicized.

Masks are required because the unvaccinated can't be trusted to not wear them. The arguments about liberty and freedom are total nonsense. The non-vaccinated do NOT have the freedom to injure and possibly kill others.

Since the vaccine seems to be effective, then the only people the non-vaxed are putting at risk are others who are non-vaxed. So if they choose to not take the vaccine, how is that anyone's business but their own?

I would encourage anyone over forty to take the vaccine, but I would not support the government forcing people to take it.

You're complicating something that is very simple. No i am being a realist ;and the science backs that up

The coronavirus is here to stay — here’s what that means (nature.com) (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2)


From pandemic to endemic: COVID-19 could be around forever, professor says | CBS 17 (https://www.cbs17.com/community/health/coronavirus/from-pandemic-to-endemic-covid-19-could-be-around-forever-professor-says/)


Here's the good news . As more people get it ; herd immunity kicks in and it will become a less potent illness.

Tom has a good point. This is something we are going to have to learn to live with. Already the death rate for infected people is much lower as more is learned about how to manage treatment. For otherwise healthy people under forty, the death rate is very, very low. In South Dakota, as has been already pointed out, the death rate has been zero for the past several weeks, so panicking would seem unwise. A great number of early deaths occurred in nursing homes and among the elderly, most of whom are now, I would think, vaccinated.

The great danger we currently face is out of control government spending and fiscal policies.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/covid-pandemic-mortality-risk-estimator

No i am being a realist ;and the science backs that up

What the science backs up is GET THE DAMN VACCINE.

Yes not the complete answer, but any port in a storm

They are refusing because unfortunately they are extremely vulnerable and they believe everything negative thing which is said about the vaccines, no matter who produces them.

There are a very few people who suffer side effects from the vaccine and I'm afraid that a very few have died but when we consider the millions upon millions worldwide who have had the vaccine and suffered absolutely no problems I believe those
people who won't have the vaccine should realise that the possibility of dying from the vaccine are millions to one.

and yet I know people who have had mRNA vaccines who have had horrible side effects ;both short term and long term. I know one person who received the DTP as a child who had to be put in a bath of ice to reduce the fever . I know another person who has suffered for over 2 years from side effects from the tetanus mRNA vaccine . Doctors quick conclusion is that it is all in their head.

My point for a long time is that covid 19 as a coronavirus is going to be endemic and we will be dealing with new strains for some time . Some of the strains will be vaccine resistant . Delta may be one in that it doesn't protect against either infection or transmission. What the vaccine probably does is reduce the severity of the infection .

DTP has a mRNA vaccine?

and yet I know people who have had mRNA vaccines who have had horrible side effects ;both short term and long term. I know one person who received the DTP as a child who had to be put in a bath of ice to reduce the fever . I know another person who has suffered for over 2 years from side effects from the tetanus mRNA vaccine . Doctors quick conclusion is that it is all in their head.

So we should follow your anecdotes rather than the science? Gimme a break.


My point for a long time is that covid 19 as a coronavirus is going to be endemic and we will be dealing with new strains for some time

Your point is pointless! Everything you have said on these pages serves nothing but purely political purposes.

The vaccine will enormously reduce the pandemic - that is not in dispute. So GET THE DAMN VACCINE and stop lobbying against it.

lol

No deaths, few hospitalizations, but 74% of those testing positive for COVID-19 in Cape Cod outbreak were vaccinated (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/no-deaths-few-hospitalizations-but-74-of-those-testing-positive-for-covid-19-in-cape-cod-outbreak-were-vaccinated/ar-AAMKFVq?ocid=msedgntp)

lol
Just wait! In about two weeks, far too many vaccinated but unmasked Lollapaloosa (Chicago, this weekend) attendees will be testing positive.

So think about what you're saying. "Far too many vaccinated but unmasked...attendees will be testing positive." Considering that masking does but little to prevent Covid, then the vaccine must not be so effective?? Well, the good news is this. If that turns out to be true, all the liberal dems on this board will immediately begin to call it the Trump vaccine.

Considering that masking does but little to prevent Covid,
Masking prevents the variants from causing grief.

Marginally. It's practically impossible to find a study that says wearing masks does much more than a little to stop the spread of Covid UNLESS it's an N-95 mask which practically no one wears.

lol

No deaths, few hospitalizations, but 74% of those testing positive for COVID-19 in Cape Cod outbreak were vaccinated (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/no-deaths-few-hospitalizations-but-74-of-those-testing-positive-for-covid-19-in-cape-cod-outbreak-were-vaccinated/ar-AAMKFVq?ocid=msedgntp)

Your link shows that the delta variant is so dangerous that even those vaccinated can transmit the disease. Deaths among those were non-existent. The number who were asymptomatic was very low.

And you think this is funny?

What's funny is that you can't even read your own link to get the facts. And that you expect the readers to conclude something nefarious by posting only the link with an idiotic lol.

Nobody's laughing.

The best way to defeat the disease is, as everybody but you knows by now, is GET VACCINATED.

Back to the original question; perhaps it is that people have woken to the dangers of the new technology in vaccines, the catastrophic long term after effects from these untested drugs rushed into manufacture to deal with a disease that is no worse than the flu we have been existing with for years. Yes, it is a pandemic, wide spread infections and many deaths but the death rate from this disease is no worse than the death rate from the flu, it is just the medical profession are running scared because the hospital systems cannot deal with the number of infections presenting

Back to the original question; perhaps it is that people have woken to the dangers of the new technology in vaccines, the catastrophic long term after effects from these untested drugs
The coronavirus is not at all unknown to scientists and medical professionals. It's the variants that are causing so much of the problem. I think we're at variant Lambda now, a new mutation.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-lambda-covid-variant-is-more-contagious-than-the-original-covid-19-doctor-says/ar-AAMIPuw?ocid=uxbndlbing

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-greek-alphabet-covid-variants-faq-tt-20210727-wa4l37x5rbe7lcvjrtgsbb46cu-story.html

And the SARs we have been vaccinated against for years has new variants every year and it goes on killing people. Yes the answer is vaccination, but with a vaccine that doesn't have long term side effects. Who knows perhaps being vaccinated will usher in the mark of the beast, where only the vaccinated can move freely and transact business. The plans for a vaccination passport are a thinly disguised move

Yes, it is a pandemic, wide spread infections and many deaths but the death rate from this disease is no worse than the death rate from the flu,

Deaths from COVID-19 are far worse than deaths from the flu. COVID 605,000 deaths and counting compared to about 35,000 on average for the last several years for the flu.

We must be getting better at treating the disease. Three states to look at are South Dakota, Alabama, and Florida. All three have been experiencing serious spikes in confirmed cases, but relatively few deaths. In SD, active cases are up somewhat, but there have been no deaths in over two months, so we are clearly learning how to manage cases better. In the long run, vaccinations and efficient med treatments for those who do get ill could be the answer. Considering that the vaccination is turning out to be far from 100% effective, it would seem clear that vaccinations alone will not be the complete answer. Reducing the number of cases to manageable levels and finding effective treatments is likely the best we can hope for, which is essentially what Tom has been saying.

74 percent of the 469 cases in an outbreak in Barnstable County, Mass., following the July 4 weekend were in vaccinated people . But you still believe in the vaccine panacea . The relevent information is that few patients were hospitalized and none died.

Strangely, it would seem that the non-vaxed people in Barnstable were less likely to become infected. At any rate, I imagine part of what we are seeing is that once we get vaccinated, we start getting bolder. I know I have. You kind of feel armor-plated.

There is no doubt that the vaccines have been effective to a degree . The real question is for how long ? The Israeli's have the most effective vaccination program in the world . But now they are going to initiate a booster program for the most vulnerable.
Eventually we will come to the realization that the only way to deal with an endemic virus is to protect the vulnerable and to let the rest of the people get on with their lives .

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by paraclete https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3872429#post3872429)
Yes, it is a pandemic, wide spread infections and many deaths but the death rate from this disease is no worse than the death rate from the flu,



Deaths from COVID-19 are far worse than deaths from the flu. COVID 605,000 deaths and counting compared to about 35,000 on average for the last several years for the flu.

The Spanish Flu infected a third of the world killing millions . Various mutations of it(H1N1) still exist and infect people today with a new strain every season. Some are more problematic than others(remember the 1968 pandemic ? No ? That's because so many other more interesting things were happening that year ) . Over time a virus becomes less deadly because the Darwinian science says it is not in the interest of the virus to kill off it's hosts .

Darwinian science, Darwin was not a "scientist" none of his theories can be proven in the scientific manner

Darwin was not a "scientist" none of his theories can be proven in the scientific mannerWrong and wrong. His observations about adaptations and natural selection, for instance, can very easily be observed to be true. They are so clearly true that basically no one argues against them. I don't agree with his major premise, but fair is fair.

Eventually we will come to the realization that the only way to deal with an endemic virus is to protect the vulnerable and to let the rest of the people get on with their lives .

The only way to deal effectively with the COVID pandemic is to get vaccinated. Those who refuse endanger everyone else. I have no idea why you're so blind on this issue, tomder.

Those who refuse endanger everyone else.Flatly untrue. If the vaccine is effective, then those who are vaccinated are not endangered at all. If the vaccine is not effective, then your statement simply falls apart. Either way, it is NOT TRUE. I'm all for the vaccine, but it is not, by itself, a complete answer.

This alone clearly demonstrates that. "74 percent of the 469 cases in an outbreak in Barnstable County, Mass., following the July 4 weekend were in vaccinated people." So about 350 vaccinated people caught Covid and were, at that point, quite capable of passing it on to someone else. Thus they, "endanger everyone else".

If we believe public policy; (which is different from science ); then we are being told by the suggestion that vaxed people should also wear masks ;that the vaxed do endanger others . There have been 350 million jabs in the US .Another 35 million have gotten covid and have antibodies . What we don't know yet is how long immunity from the virus and the jab lasts .

You want to know what public policy would be the most effective to controlling the virus ? Stopping the flow of illegals crossing the borders . Quid is keeping the travel ban. Why doesn't he close the border too ? What makes it even more hypocritical is that vaxed Canadians cannot enter the US . But thousands of unscreened people cross the border .Over 1 million apprehensions of illegal aliens this year already . Detainees are tested after they are transferred to other locations ,bringing the virus across the border with them . Covid cases are surging in detention centers and one can only imaging how many successfully crossed with out being detained .

Stopping the flow of illegals crossing the borders .Remember that Commissar...er, Vice President Harris is now in charge of the southern border, so I'm sure that in just a few more decades she'll have it all under control.

Private poll added for information.

is there a 3rd for probably or maybe ? Or if not ,with those caveats in mind I will put yes I will be .But I am not vaxed yet . The last test done recently showed I have antibodies from my illness last year .

I am not vaxed yet . The last test done recently showed I have antibodies from my illness last year .


The CDC warns that people who have had the virus and people who have been vaccinated can still get Covid-19, and both can transmit the virus. For people who have already had the virus, the level of transmission is unknown. For people who are vaccinated, research shows their viral load is lower, reducing transmission.

Thank you Dr Athos, I now no longer need to consult my GP on the matter.

The way out of this for all of us is mandatory mask wearing, mandatory distancing, mandatory vaccination and mandatory restrictions on travel. What has spread the virus more than anything else is travel, and stupid gatherings

Thank you Dr Athos, I now no longer need to consult my GP on the matter.


You're welcome - I'll send you my bill in the morning.

refer it to medicare, they pay all my consultations

CDC becoming one of the least credible sources . Give them another couple of days and their contradictory guidelines will be reversed or amended again. The White House is pushing back against the CDC and the compliant press over the news from Mass, So expect the CDC to revise their comments or clarify their comments to fall in line with Quid's playbook .

I see what is happening here . We are moving from vax recommendationsand persuasion to vax coercion and mandates . The headlines read the CDC says the "war has changed " . Their over heated rhetoric is designed to change my mind <sarc>
The first step in the mandate is to threaten people's livelihood . In that effort the government has recruited allies in the shadow state private industry . Government mandates cannot be far behind even though Roberts in the Obamacare case wrote “Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority.”

It still comes down to the idea that governments think that liberty can be suspended when governments decide it is a public safety issue.

If they try to make the vax compulsory, it is going to be trouble. There are a lot of people out there who still value liberty.

When we began winding down restrictions there were far more people dying from covid than are today.
Despite ‘Delta’ Alarmism, US COVID Deaths Are at Lowest Level Since March 2020, Harvard and Stanford Professors Explain - Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org) (https://fee.org/articles/despite-delta-alarmism-us-covid-deaths-are-at-lowest-level-since-march-2020-harvard-and-stanford-professors-explain/)

Roughly half the country has been vaccinated .85% of the vulnerable over 65 crowd has been vaxed.

“By immunizing the elderly and many other vulnerable people, we have provided them with excellent protection against severe disease in case they get infected. Also contributing is widespread natural immunity from recovered COVID patients. Though cases may rise, deaths will no longer follow in proportion. "

Of course, proponents of big government and government officials themselves will be the last ones to acknowledge the reality that the most dangerous phase of this pandemic has long since come to an end in the US. Why? Because the rhetoric of “emergency” and “crisis” is the government’s favorite tool to use in expanding and maintaining its power over our lives.

Ben I want to thank you. If I expressed contrary views on FakeBook or Twitter i would've already been cancelled .

Of course, proponents of big government and government officials themselves will be the last ones to acknowledge the reality that the most dangerous phase of this pandemic has long since come to an end in the US. Why? Because the rhetoric of “emergency” and “crisis” is the government’s favorite tool to use in expanding and maintaining its power over our lives.Exactly correct. Best data I could find is from Great Britain where cases have spiked greatly, but deaths remain very low. This same trend is true in many states here. With most of the older folks vaccinated, the new cases are likely in younger people whose risk of death is very, very low.


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

With most of the older folks vaccinated, the new cases are likely in younger people whose risk of death is very, very low. That is what I have heard is the situation in Florida .It is the 25-40 year old that are spiking .

Exactly correct. Best data I could find is from Great Britain where cases have spiked greatly, but deaths remain very low. This same trend is true in many states here. With most of the older folks vaccinated, the new cases are likely in younger people whose risk of death is very, very low.


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
What has really helped with the latest UK wave is a high uptake of vaccinations, so while people do get infected the effects are generally mild with low hospitalisations and deaths.

So you are saying that the vaccine is being given to people who then get sick anyway but not so sick as they would have been?

I don't think your statement is entirely correct. The number of new cases was well over 40K per day for a number of days. If all those people had been vaccinated, then the vaccine is plainly not as effective in preventing the disease as we had hoped. I imagine that Tom's point about the age range of those being infected is probably the best explanation of the dramatically lower death rate.

But I do see your point. It does seem to be true that the vaccine, if not preventing Covid, does seem to make an infection not as dangerous as it might have been.

Yes vaccines do that, no vaccine is 100% effective although the H1N1 vaccines I have been given in recent years appear very effective but then they have had years to perfect it

and the H1N1 needs annual boosters because of mutations . Again evolution . The H1N1 isnot as deadly except for high risk people . There are no mandates ;even in schools for the annual outbreak .

So you are saying that the vaccine is being given to people who then get sick anyway but not so sick as they would have been?

I don't think your statement is entirely correct. The number of new cases was well over 40K per day for a number of days. If all those people had been vaccinated, then the vaccine is plainly not as effective in preventing the disease as we had hoped. I imagine that Tom's point about the age range of those being infected is probably the best explanation of the dramatically lower death rate.

But I do see your point. It does seem to be true that the vaccine, if not preventing Covid, does seem to make an infection not as dangerous as it might have been.

As 'clete points out that's how these vaccines work.
Most of the current crop of positive infections are classed as asymptomatic, ie infected, but not displaying symptoms.
Our Tack and Trace systems has caused a pingmageddon with recent large scale events, so people have been testing to see if they really do need to isolate for 10 days.
This has had a knock on effect all of it's own.

Worth a read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57889961

As 'clete points out that's how these vaccines work.They're advertised as being 90-95% effective. I assume "effective" means they prevent the disease. Perhaps not.

They're advertised as being 90-95% effective. I assume "effective" means they prevent the disease. Perhaps not.

90-95% effective in reducing symptoms, which they do very well.
Remember asymptomatic people, while infected, are not actually unwell with this disease..

90-95% effective in reducing symptoms, which they do very well.


Don't think that is true.


“The formula for this calculation is risk of contracting illness among unvaccinated (placebo) group minus the risk among vaccinated group, over the risk among unvaccinated groups,” Jain says.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/covid-19-efficacy-rates-explained-5112463

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/learning/what-does-95-effective-mean-teaching-the-math-of-vaccine-efficacy.html

As infectious diseases are not my forte I can only comment on what's reported.
Either way the UK has a high rate of vaccination, 70%+ overall, and, despite increased infection rates, reducing hospitalisation and death rates.

despite increased infection rates, reducing hospitalisation and death rates.Same thing happening here. Question is why. Hard to say, but it does seem to be good news.

Perhaps covid 19 will ultimately become as benign as the common cold

As infectious diseases are not my forte I can only comment on what's reported.
Either way the UK has a high rate of vaccination, 70%+ overall, and, despite increased infection rates, reducing hospitalisation and death rates.

Here, (US), the infections are increasing (64%), the hospitalizations are increasing (46%), and the deaths are increasing (33%).

The figures are as of July 30,2021 and are the percentage average increase over 7 days from the previous 7 days. 4 variants have now been found in Florida. Delta has an enormously greater transmissable factor than the previous.

More than ever, the proper action to defeat the virus is to get vaccinated. Those who worry about their "liberty" and their "rights" are leading their followers to sickness and death.

Their real concern is money and being elected to public office.

Quid calls it the pandemic of the unvaccinated . The CDC scientists sings a different tune identifying 35,000 infections among the vaccinated EACH WEEK ! https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21026654-57c98604-3b54-44f0-8b44-b148d8f75165 Insults, coercion, and contradictory messages are not good persuasive techniques .

https://scontent.fmem1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/230259958_4553875644625319_4566906832608874998_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=rRGCJUYmzEsAX_YFmJe&_nc_ht=scontent.fmem1-2.fna&oh=53a31913d615e65f13a86b95ebbf3444&oe=612FB61C


Here, (US), the infections are increasing (64%), the hospitalizations are increasing (46%), and the deaths are increasing (33%).For which Biden is clearly to blame??

Quid calls it the pandemic of the unvaccinated .

That's exactly what it is.


The CDC scientists sings a different tune identifying 35,000 infections among the vaccinated EACH WEEK !

You fail to note that the 35,000 is out of 165 MILLION vaccinated - a tiny percentage (.0002) - and that includes comorbidities.

The unvaccinated are 8 times more likely to become infected than the vaccinated. They are 25 times more likely to be hospitalized. And 25 times more likely to die.

The lesson is clear - GET VACCINATED.

Also from your link:

Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential to reduce transmission of the Delta variant

You fail to note that the 35,000 is out of 165 MILLION vaccinated - a tiny percentage (.0002)You failed to note that it is, "35,000 infections among the vaccinated EACH WEEK." And bear in mind that those are only the symptomatic cases. Asymptomatic cases would likely add several tens of thousands of cases per week. Now you're talking about perhaps three million cases per year.

panic why don't you

Honesty and clarity are not panic.

This whole thing has been panic, panic in a population that won't protect itself

Australia won’t protect itself? Maybe you should address that.

Australia won’t protect itself? Maybe you should address that.

It is being addressed even as we speak, but I speak more generally, for throughout the world this thing has been allowed to spread through foolishness. We protected this nation by protecting our borders even though it took a little while to realise the threat and so the first wave was an inconvenience. The delta variant arrived with returning travellers and we continue to protect ourselves even though infection rates are low by world experience, 300 cases a day and perhaps one death a day.

The lockdowns are an extreme measure but there is a recalcicant element in the community that doesn't respond

Eradication is and was impossible . In human history only one virus was eradicated through vaccination (small pox);and that was because it did not mutate .It took decades of a global response to eradicate it .

Covid mutates rapidly and is zoonotic .It was derived from bats ;most probably with the assistance of Gain of Function "reserarch" .New research shows it can also infect animals, and for the first time, variants have been able to infect mice(in laboratories )
. Veterinarians in UK and Texas have discovered the virus in dogs .It has also been discovered in the mink population .

Eradication is and was impossible

Strawman. Nobody but you has even mentioned "eradication". The goal is control so that the population achieves herd immunity. With the Delta variant, that has increased from what it originally was pegged at - all the more reason to get vaccinated.

DeSantis decries the feds for using their power (which they haven't done) while he is threatening to use his governmental power to withdraw funding from any school districts that fail to toe the line that he draws in the sand.

His supporters will completely ignore the contradiction.

DeSantis has legal authority over the schools. The feds do not have legal authority to enforce mask rules or to mandate vaccinations. There is no contradiction.

What is herd immunity for a disease that rapidly mutates ? How many Greek letters are left ? Conservative estimates are now at 90% to achieve herd immunity . And then what ? The virus has already show it can infect and be transmitted by vaxed and previously infected hosts .So herd immunity is a fictional false promise in this case .

It is especially true if you think being vaxed = sufficent anti-body protection to achieve herd immunity .

Scientists at Rockefeller University put it to the test .


The researchers analyzed patients convalescing from acute SARS-CoV-2 infections and found that they produced B-cell responses for up to a year after infection. During that year, so-called memory cells not only increased in absolute numbers, but also produced broad and potent antibodies that were active in fighting both the original virus and to many of the variants. When convalescing patients then received an mRNA vaccine after initial recovery, they produced even higher levels of plasma neutralizing antibodies. However, in naïve (not previously infected) individuals, the administration of a vaccine followed by a booster also increased the quantity of antibodies, but the antibodies lacked the potency of those produced in previously infected patients who received subsequent mRNA vaccination (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html).
As such, the probability of a vaccine strategy providing “Herd Immunity (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808)” has moved from arguable to improbable. Part of the problem is that SARS-CoV-2 is not following the patterns of previous influenza epidemics (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/basics/past-pandemics.html). It is not a flu that peaks and then disappears within weeks or months. This is an ever shape-shifting virus, finding new ways to outmaneuver our defenses as evidenced by the occurrence of so-called breakthrough infections. Simply being vaccinated does not ensure that one will not become infected, spread the virus, or become ill (albeit with milder symptoms). Recent data from Israel, the UK (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201), and Provincetown, MA (https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/us/provincetown-outbreak-residents-response/index.html), show the limits of vaccine protection. We must realize that Covid-19 vaccines are now prophylactic therapeutics that mitigate, and sometimes prevent the most serious consequences of SARS-CoV-2 infection.

Novavax’s Manufacturing Issues Are Solvable, But Covid-19 Vaccine Herd Immunity May Not Be (forbes.com) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephenbrozak/2021/08/06/novavaxs-manufacturing-issues-are-solvable-but-covid-19-vaccine-herd-immunity-may-not-be/?sh=2b10344a39b6)

People love to toss around the term "herd immunity" without having any clear idea of what it means. That might be because, in all likelihood, there is no real definition available, or at least nothing with any real specifics.

What is herd immunity for a disease that rapidly mutates ?........ .So herd immunity is a fictional false promise in this case


The science is clear and action reflects current knowledge. No one knows what the future holds, and that is no reason for doing nothing. Your constant critique of what is happening is hard to understand. Like so many on the far-right, you appear to actually want the disease to infect as many as possible. I hope I'm wrong.

and the far left is orgasmic over the prospect of keeping people in a state of fear and permanent pandemic . The vaxed and the unvaxed is the new American divide they feed off of. Next up is Nazi show your vax papers .

It would be simplier to identify the vaxed with a yellow arm band and save the expense of stop and search. I said before this virus is an excuse to set up the conditions for the scenario of Revelation where you cannot trade without the identifying mark

and the far left is orgasmic over the prospect of keeping people in a state of fear and permanent pandemic .

You're becoming hysterical, tomder. Obviously, the far left, the left, the center, and the Republicans (a very small fraction of them) are trying to get the whole population vaccinated. That is hardly being "orgasmic" for keeping people in a state of permanent pandemic.

I'm surprised that you've gone off the deep end.

The separation of the lepers has begun.

The Italian government announced Thursday that proof of at least one dose of vaccine, a negative coronavirus test or recent recovery from COVID will be required to access indoor dining, theaters, swimming pools, gyms, museums and other facilities .

New York City will require proof of vaccination to enter all restaurants, fitness centers and indoor entertainment venues, Mayor Bill de Blasio announced Tuesday.

In the last week, companies from Disney to Walmart to Google have begun mandating their employees get vaxed .

So unvaxed can't work or go out in public. Round em up !!

As for lockdowns ,The educated office workers and members of the teacher's unions will retreat to their Hampton hideaways with little disruption to their lives while the uneducated subhuman rubes will be deemed essential and will be compelled to deliver services to the privileged elites. Students will receive sub-par remote education while the teachers retain their pay.

Not to worry . Generous gimmees like breadcrumbs to the pigeons would be paid for with government monopoly money printing presses . The subsequent inflation .... who does it hurt most ? You got it . They very poor people they proclaim to champion. Limousine liberal elitism in a nutshell.

This is heading to an ugly place.

So unvaxed can't work or go out in public. Round em up !!

The solution is simplicity itself. GET VACCINATED and stop putting yourself and others in danger.

Except, of course, that getting vaxed plainly does not provide complete protection against the known variants of Covid, nor against the coming variants. So to say the Trump vaccine is the solution is not simplicity so much as it's simplistic.

If a person wants to provide a fairly reliable protection for himself, then he can get vaxed. He can then mind his own business about what other people do.

Sandinista Bill is in a real pickle . As NRO explains ;“The shark most ominously lurking in the waters is the different rates of vaccination among demographic groups. Only about 40 percent of African Americans in New York City have received at least one dose. Among Latinos, the number is higher (63.5 percent) but still nothing to boast about.” These are the people who would be unable to present proof of vaccination, unless of course they were mandated to receive them. As with everything else, the poorest will be hit hardest and that spells trouble.
NYC Vaccine Rules Will Have Unintended Consequences | National Review (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-unforeseen-consequences-of-new-york-citys-vaccine-passports/)

He could not and would not enforce lock downs during last summer's riots ooops I mean mostly peaceful BLM protests in NYC .Let's see him enforce his vax mandates .

So you have to have proof of vax to eat out or work, but no proof of ID to vote? Hmmm.

Let's see him enforce his vax mandates .

Tomder, why not spend all this energy on encouraging the unvaccinated to get vaccinated rather than politicizing the issue where it helps nobody and, in fact, may even discourage those people from getting vaccinated. Is that what you want?

So much for the reliable vaccine. "San Francisco health officials say the city is averaging 176 new cases a day in the past week, a ten-fold jump from the beginning of June. Most cases have been in unvaccinated or partially-vaccinated people, but there has been a notable amount of cases among the vaccinated as well."

Like I said. "Simplistic" is the word.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/07/30/covid-breakthrough-cases-surge-among-san-francisco-hospital-staff/

In the meantime, the utterly reliable and responsible NY City teacher's union [sarc] has 40% of its members who have not taken even one of the two shots. Yeah, those Trump republicans are sure sleezeballs. [big time sarc]

https://ny.chalkbeat.org/2021/7/26/22594169/nyc-mandate-covid-vaccine-teachers

it's like the guy said in Jurassic Park . … the kind of control you’re attempting simply is… it’s not possible. If there is one thing the history of evolution has taught us, it’s that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, it expands to new territories and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously, but, uh… well, there it is.

One more. "A study out of the UK released last week proved — once again — what we’ve known for more than a year: Kids transmit the coronavirus (https://www.foxnews.com/category/health/infectious-disease/coronavirus) at a much lower rate than do adults. Epidemiologist Shamez Ladhani, who led the study, found that children 'aren’t taking [the virus] home and then transferring it to the community. These kids have very little capacity to infect household members.' "

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/covid-kids-masking-children-karol-markowicz

If there is one thing the history of evolution has taught us, it’s that life will not be contained. Evolution also teaches us that the primary mover is survival. The unvaccinated who become infected are 25 times more likely to die than the vaccinated. You can't fool Mother Nature.


but, uh… well, there it is.

Right!

The unvaccinated who become infected are 25 times more likely to die than the vaccinated.That's a valid point.

https://www.popsci.com/science/delta-variant-viral-load-breakthrough-cases/

Ok . India had a very low vaccination rate and the Delta variant went through the nation in less than 3 months before the spike dropped rapidly . Yes the death rate is a concern . But in the US the most vulnerable are already vaccinated . (90% of seniors )

But in the US the most vulnerable are already vaccinated . (90% of seniors )Another good point which probably explains why the death rate has not spiked anywhere close to the level of the rate of infections.

But in the US the most vulnerable are already vaccinated .

The most vulnerable are the states with the fewest vaccinations. They are the southern states of Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, North and South Carolina, and Tennessee. Also Arizona, Missouri, and Oklahoma.

The most vulnerable population groups are those over fifty. It would be better to be unvaccinated and twenty five than to be vaccinated and seventy.

the evidence doesn't show that, our experience now is that younger persons are being infected

The point is that young people are far less likely to be hospitalized or die.

The point is that no infection can be allowed to run rampant, whether in the young or the old, this is why these superspreader events are stupid

so is the military going to fire on the lockdown protesters in Sydney ?

In Australia I would not be surprised.

Obama's party and the maskless crowd attending. I'm sure all of the pro-maskers on this site will express their shock and dismay. [sarc]


https://twitter.com/i/status/1424373805296889856

so is the military going to fire on the lockdown protesters in Sydney ?

That superspreader event is over, the threat of a strong police response was sufficient to put an end to that foolishness which was pushed on a gullible public by rabble rousers

the threat of a strong police response was sufficient to put an end to that foolishness which was pushed on a gullible public by rabble rousersLand of the somewhat free.

vaccination is an issue, but will we ever get another vacation away from home? given my advanced age, I suspect it is unlikely

vaccination is an issue, but will we ever get another vacation away from home? given my advanced age, I suspect it is unlikelyThat's very unfortunate. I hope you get a dozen more.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Had I followed il duce's strict travel requirements I never would've had the time or opportunity to find my home in SC.

Epidemiologists speaking of Iceland with it's over 90% vaccination rate says that herd immunity will not be achieved by immunizations . It will come from viral transmission.

I wonder if they are taking into account the rate at which this virus is mutating?

How do you take that into account?

By realizing that the Trump vaccine might very well not be effective against every variant. If that is the case, then herd immunity is a fantasy.

It is effective within vaccine norms and more effective than some . As an example ,the flu vaccine has about a 60% efficacy. But it does not last long. That is why Pfizer is promoting a booster ;and Israel is giving booster shots to high risk population . Despite that the Delta cases in Israel continue to go up .
I am pretty sure that all the vax makers are hard at work tweeking their vaccine to make them into a Delta vax

then herd immunity is a fantasy.

Herd immunity is a fantasy, a bed time story for the sheeple. There is no herd immunity to the common cold, there is no herd immunity to influenza, there is no herd immunity to SARS.

Those who cannot cope with the virus will leave us. Immunisation will mean less will die

Here immunity is not 100% immunity . Herd immunity is when enough people have immunity then most of those who encounter someone who has a virus will not get sick. There are many examples of herd immunity ....polio ,measles ,chicken pox are rare these days .

There is no real herd immunity with mutating viruses like the flu ,common cold or Sars Covid appears the be in this group .

Likely the greatest example of herd immunity is smallpox which has been essentially wiped out. But it does not reside in animals and seemed not to mutate, so the small pox vax was very effective. Covid is a different animal.

From a survey conducted by Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh .5 million adults surveyed .


The association between hesitancy and education level followed a U-shaped curve with the lowest hesitancy among those with a master’s degree (RR=0.75 [95% CI 0.72-0.78] and the highest hesitancy among those with a PhD (RR=2.16 [95%CI 2.05-2.28]) or ≤high school education(RR=1.88 [95%CI 1.83-1.93]) versus a bachelor’s degree.

Time trends and factors related to COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy from January-May 2021 among US adults: Findings from a large-scale national survey | medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full)

Every other education level group grew less hesitant over time, those with Ph.D.s never wavered in their hesitancy

In the rush to achieve the myth of herd immunity other more dangerous side effects like heart disease and MS may result from vaccines available fighting covid is like fighting climate change the modelling has taken over

As long as vaccinations are not available to the whole world then any though of herd immunity is impossible . Right now Delta is going through Indonesia . The developing world is breeding ground to new strains that eventually infect the developed world .

Australia has reached a new level of insanity . Here is a quote from New South Wales Chief health officer .......

“We all need to work together. We need to limit our movements. We need to consider whenever we leave our house that anyone with us and anyone we come into contact with, could -- can convey the virus. So, whilst it is in human nature to engage in conversation with others, to be friendly, unfortunately, this is not the time to do that. So even if you run into your next door neighbor, in the shopping center, at Coles or Aldi or any other grocery shop, don't start up a conversation.”

Australia’s NSW Chief Health Officer: ‘Whenever You Leave Your House... Don’t Start up a Conversation’ (clip) :: Grabien - The Multimedia Marketplace (https://grabien.com/file.php?id=1298539)

Yes, keep your distance and go about your business, don't stop to gossip, that is what cell phones are for

So now Australia is an anti-social state too .Picturing Crocodile Dundee cowering in his room . When are they going to start mandatory neutering ?

watch this video ...


Mount Vernon Community School Board Meeting 1 (rumble.com) (https://rumble.com/vkxozl-mount-vernon-community-school-board-meeting-1.html)

So now Australia is an anti-social state too .Picturing Crocodile Dundee cowering in his room . When are they going to start mandatory neutering ?

should have done that a long time ago, made a condition of entry to protect us from stupidly. The virus isn't the real threat, it is stupidity, stupidity of ethnic groups, stupidity of the young and the careless, stupidity of the indigenous who just have to visit their 'lations. Crocodile Dundee is a myth, just like the Superman fighting for the american way, Crocodile Dundee was send up of australian society and american society

Did the Taliban take over Australia too ?
Is it true that Aussies drinking outdoors have to wear their masks while drinking ?


“There will be no removal of masks to consume alcohol outdoors,” Andrews said.
“You will no longer be able to remove your mask to drink a cocktail at a pop-up beer garden on a footpath as part of a pub crawl.”


Is it true that kids can't play in the playground in the couple hours they are permitted to leave their prison homes ?

Victoria implements new mask rule after Richmond ‘pub crawl’ draws anger | 7NEWS (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/victoria-implements-new-mask-rule-after-richmond-pub-crawl-draws-anger-c-3695477)
Coronavirus Victoria lockdown update: Full list of new restrictions after Melbourne lockdown extension announced including 9pm curfew | Explainer (9news.com.au) (https://amp.9news.com.au/article/d4058f11-9da6-4e7a-b229-44a044a29f3e?__twitter_impression=true)

Is Australia the test case nation to see how far governments can force people to sacrifice liberty for safety ?

The Aussies appear to be on board with this
So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause.( Star Wars ;'Revenge of the Sith ')

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That is the funniest post I've read in a long time. Funny and yet sadly accurate. Liberty given up easily can only be regained at great expense. Australia seems so content to become a serfdom.

You forget at your peril, and it appears our leaders have forgotten, the power of the ballot box. Gladys will pay for her arrogance and indecision, Scomo will pay for backing the wrong vaccine. The other state premiers will pay for the lockdowns and destroyed lives.

there is no herd immunity from a mutating virus. Have we become immune to influenza? to the common cold, a corona virus?

Have we become immune to influenza? to the common cold, a corona virus?

Of course not ! We have vaccines that work nominally well and therapeutic treatments and public education . Then we live our lives free of ridiculous impositions .

Perhaps we would be better off living our lives free of ridiculous politicians and their panicking medical advisors. Public education has failed in so many ways, why would it be effective here