Rated NSFW or Snowflakes
Contains some rude words

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2744315465891636&extid=MUlqujdvp7oZvwA9

Funny and excellent - right on target! Thank you.

No Facebooker, so left out of the fun, but the ratings notice probably tells it all.

No Facebooker, so left out of the fun, but the ratings notice probably tells it all.

Don't need a FB account to join in the fun.

Tal I'll sum it up for you . It is an actress pretending to be a postal service employee saying the word 'Bull sh+t 'alot (and some other curses ) .

Here is the YouTube version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klUweWE-u6A

all the this misses the point . The problem with mail in ballots occurred in states that did not have the infrastructure in place to accurately count the ballots . In the Maloney race in NY ,after a 3 week + count; in a primary contest where many fewer ballots were cast than in a general election ,more ballots were tossed for various reasons than the difference in the race between Maloney and Patel . In Patterson NJ a judge just decided ,even though there was clear ballot tampering with charges that should disqualify the candidate ;that there should be a new election . It had nothing to do with USPS ability to handle extra mail .

Tal I'll sum it up for you . It is an actress pretending to be a postal service employee saying the word 'Bull sh+t 'alot .

Almost, they are calling out the claims on mail voting fraud and how the service is currently being run into the ground by the latest presidential appointee..
Odd that most of the rest of the free world has absolutely no problems with such voting methods, it's the means the entire armed services and even the Trumps vote, yet the adverse claims are completely unsubstantiated.

Curly ,of course absentee balloting has been in place for years ;where the voter REQUESTS a ballot to fill out . You do realize of course that they are set aside and not even counted unless the contest is too close to call without counting them . So mostly the armed service ballots are treated as provisional . When Trump calls out the possibility of fraud it is not because he does not believe the service can handle the load . He does not trust the fact that ballots are being sent out whether requested or not to unverified and often rolls that are not updated . I can't tell you how often I get mail delivered to my address to the previous owner even years after they moved out and I moved in . See above I added to my comments to tal . In the Maloney race 20% of the mail in ballots were disqualified . So when you say other nations do it ;that is all well and good. We can do if the infrastructure is in place . That doesn't happen over night or in the 9 months from when the virus first manifested itself here . Some states have had mail in balloting and I'm sure they will do as well as always . Most states do not and have not even come close to addressing the simple fact that instead of having a machine doing the count ;they all will be counted by humans . You think hanging chads were a nightmare ? Wait until you get a load of this ! Florida 2000 in all 50 states .

Curly ,of course absentee balloting has been in place for years ;where the voter REQUESTS a ballot to fill out . You do realize of course that they are set aside and not even counted unless the contest is too close to call without counting them . So mostly the armed service ballots are treated as provisional . When Trump calls out the possibility of fraud it is not because he does not believe the service can handle the load . He does not trust the fact that ballots are being sent out whether requested or not to unverified and often rolls that are not updated . I can't tell you how often I get mail delivered to my address to the previous owner even years after they moved out and I moved in . See above I added to my comments to tal . In the Maloney race 20% of the mail in ballots were disqualified . So when you say other nations do it ;that is all well and good. We can do if the infrastructure is in place . That doesn't happen over night or in the 9 months from when the virus first manifested itself here . Some states have had mail in balloting and I'm sure they will do as well as always . Most states do not and have not even come close to addressing the simple fact that instead of having a machine doing the count ;they all will be counted by humans . You think hanging chads were a nightmare ? Wait until you get a load of this ! Florida 2000 in all 50 states .

That's great, however, as usual, the rhetoric is getting in the way of the message.
The linked vid is from an Australian firm based on how they see the situation.
It is rather concerning that a, supposed, World leading country doesn't have the infrastructure in place to deal with this straightforward part of the democratic process, especially during a pandemic.

Reality is what reality is . States run elections in our system .Converting to a vote by mail system is arduous and expensive, and most states simply aren’t set up to smoothly conduct a mail election with their present resources and laws. Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah and Washington are the only states that have default mail in systems . 29 states (plus DC) give voters the option to vote by 'no excuse' absentee voting in federal elections, but the the voter must request a ballot (I think that should be a minimal requirement ) . 16 states require voters to provide a valid excuse if they want to vote by mail, although this year, some states may accept concerns around the coronavirus as an excuse. As is the case in a Federal system ;it is a patchwork of laws and systems . The dictator in New Jersey recently proclaimed that they will flood the state with mail in ballots ;and even more perverted ,they would count the ballots of people who make the effort to go and cast their ballots at their polling location ,as provisional ballots . Concerning or not ,States just can’t just snap their fingers and pull off a mail election on a dime. But that is exactly what they are attempting to do . I see a disaster .You think this summer is hot ? Wait to you see the 'peaceful protests ' in a contested Presidential election if the decision is delayed a few weeks or more .

Reality is what reality is . States run elections in our system .Converting to a vote by mail system is arduous and expensive, and most states simply aren’t set up to smoothly conduct a mail election with their present resources and laws. Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah and Washington are the only states that have default mail in systems . 29 states (plus DC) give voters the option to vote by 'no excuse' absentee voting in federal elections, but the the voter must request a ballot (I think that should be a minimal requirement ) . 16 states require voters to provide a valid excuse if they want to vote by mail, although this year, some states may accept concerns around the coronavirus as an excuse. As is the case in a Federal system ;it is a patchwork of laws and systems . The dictator in New Jersey recently proclaimed that they will flood the state with mail in ballots ;and even more perverted ,they would count the ballots of people who make the effort to go and cast their ballots at their polling location ,as provisional ballots . Concerning or not ,States just can’t just snap their fingers and pull off a mail election on a dime. But that is exactly what they are attempting to do . I see a disaster .You think this summer is hot ? Wait to you see the 'peaceful protests ' in a contested Presidential election if the decision is delayed a few weeks or more .

What you are saying Tom is you don't want to move into the twentieth century, let alone the twenty-first century, and make truth about the idea that every vote counts. You want to remain in this eighteenth century wonderland because it might elect someone who agrees with your views, even if that person subverts the system

Finally scrolled down to see the video, duh, and find out what all the BS is about, rather amusing really, and I can see why the dufus would be scared sh1tless with the thought of millions of people voting against his 3 years of BS rather easily.

Dropping your ballots in a rich neighborhood mailbox was a novel idea, but humor aside, good luck to the dufus and repubs trying to scare up enough votes by hook and crook to convince the people hardest hit by the economy destroying virus with no jobs, losing homes and businesses, why their check ain't in the mail.

Hope you enjoy the red meat repubs convention Tom.

There is a process for change. Let the Dems propose the amendment that scraps our electoral system and Federal Republic and see how far they get . If the Dems gave a rat's a$$ about every vote counting then they would not dilute the legitimate vote . They would favor voter id .They would favor confirming that only eligible voters are on the rolls . They would not have same day registration .They would not allow people to harvest ballots and often filling them in when they are not the person on the card .Even the LA Slime ;which favors California's law ,admitted that the system .
"the Democrats set themselves up for exactly these kinds of allegations when they passed what really is an overly-permissive ballot collection law. It was written without sufficient safeguards, and suspicions of abuse were inevitable."....https://web.archive.org/web/20191104224933/https://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-ballot-harvesting-20181207-story.html


They would not have the Governor of New Jersey proclaiming that votes at the polling places only count as provisional ballots .
I don't know if those are issues in Australia .But they are here .

We'll just ignore all the voter ID laws struck down in Texas, or the confessions of the repubs to suppress the vote for their guys over the years, or the NC dude caught committing vote fraud that triggered a new election. We'll just trust the dufus and repubs hollering voter fraud with NO EVIDENCE to back up the claim.

Where's the lawsuit in the case in NY you cited?

why their check ain't in the mail.

because Madam Mim called the House back to vote on a bogus USPS bailout instead of extending the relief benefits ?




Where's the lawsuit in the case in NY you cited?

here ya go

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/suraj-patel-files-lawsuit-in-ballot-battle-with-rep-maloney/

https://queenseagle.com/all/maloney-expands-ny-12-lead-but-patel-wont-concede-until-lawsuit-resolved


We'll just trust the dufus and repubs hollering voter fraud with NO EVIDENCE to back up the claim.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/20/politics/paterson-new-jersey-city-council-voter-fraud/index.html

https://www.njherald.com/news/20200630/its-mess-paterson-voter-fraud-just-taste-of-mail-in-ballot-issues-plaguing-new-jersey

https://www.nj.com/passaic-county/2020/06/voting-fraud-charges-filed-against-paterson-councilman-and-councilman-elect.html

New Jersey was better than NY . They only did not count 1 in 10 ballots .

https://www.njspotlight.com/2020/06/one-in-10-ballots-rejected-in-last-months-vote-by-mail-elections/

Evita .......“‘Biden should not concede under any circumstances because I think this is going to drag out.”

Can the Dems make their game plan any more obvious ??

To reiterate ... if there is no declared winner on Jan 20 2021 ,Madam Mim becomes acting President under the 20th Amendment (assuming that the next Congress is seated and the Dems win the House majority )

Can the Dems make their game plan any more obvious ??




Yes Tom it is just a game of thrones what you are saying is there is no true separation between the house and the presidency

'Game of Thrones' meets 'House of Cards'

'Game of Thrones' meets 'House of Cards'

More likely house of cads

with the head cad being Madam Mim Pelosi https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/d/d6/Madam_Mim.jpg/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/450?cb=20160227095519

Evita .......“‘Biden should not concede under any circumstances because I think this is going to drag out.”

Can the Dems make their game plan any more obvious ??

To reiterate ... if there is no declared winner on Jan 20 2021 ,Madam Mim becomes acting President under the 20th Amendment (assuming that the next Congress is seated and the Dems win the House majority )

Now Tom, dems would be remiss if they weren't ready for any antics the dufus will pull. He has a lot at stake like his freedom and fortune if he loses. Making that happen is the dems game plan! DUH!

When I go vote, I have to show photo ID before I get a ballot. With this new version of mail in voting, how will they know that the people filling in the ballots are registered voters? How will they be sure I didn't get three ballots mailed to me by mistake and I sent all three back in? And if they don't know, then how can they be sure that the result is valid?

When I go vote, I have to show photo ID before I get a ballot. With this new version of mail in voting, how will they know that the people filling in the ballots are registered voters? How will they be sure I didn't get three ballots mailed to me by mistake and I sent all three back in? And if they don't know, then how can they be sure that the result is valid?

The incidence of voter fraud is said to be small, so even if you fill in three ballots, which makes you a dishonest person, the impact is small and won't influence the overall result. It is said those ballots won't even be counted unless there is a close result so all this hohaa is just another storm in a teacup to disguise the real issue which is lack of voter turnout

We are not presently engaging in this type of voting where we just send out ballots by the tens of millions and simply hope they get to the right person. So I'll ask again. What is the plan for knowing that only registered voters are receiving and sending in ballots, and only one per person?

the premise of your question is false, since it presupposes dishonesty, which is not implicit in the sending out of ballots

No, it presupposes much more than that. It presupposes inefficiency. It presupposes unanticipated consequences and problems. It presupposes, most of all, that you still cannot answer the simple, essential, and very basic questions of how anyone can ensure that the ballots will be mailed to only registered voters, that the mailing lists will be even remotely accurate, and that ballots will only come in from registered voters. Until those questions can be answered, I'd say it's a lousy idea, and it's astonishing to me that anyone would seriously consider it. I remember the episode of the "hanging chads" and am pretty certain we don't need something like that multiplied several times over.

No, it presupposes much more than that. It presupposes inefficiency. It presupposes unanticipated consequences and problems. It presupposes, most of all, that you still cannot answer the simple, essential, and very basic questions of how anyone can ensure that the ballots will be mailed to only registered voters, that the mailing lists will be even remotely accurate, and that ballots will only come in from registered voters. Until those questions can be answered, I'd say it's a lousy idea, and it's astonishing to me that anyone would seriously consider it. I remember the episode of the "hanging chads" and am pretty certain we don't need something like that multiplied several times over.

I think it masks a different problem; the resolve to ensure that every person who wants to cast a ballot has the opportunity with out unnecessary delay. Long lines at polling places indicates an inefficient system so mail-in voting is convenient and avoids that problem. Every mail-in ballot should be contained in an envelop that contains a valid voter ID code which means mail-in ballots can only be mailed to registered voters at their registered address. What it takes is the need to change ideas from the long hallowed methods that work with small populations to deal with population density

The state maintains the voter rolls and also the rules and regs that govern the procedure by which ballots are mailed tracked and authenticated found on state and county websites. Far as I know the state attorney general is the head of elections with local collaboration. I think its because of covid that mail in voting has taken a priority, as absentee ballots have been around since I can remember. I really don't know of any state that uses the phone book to mail out ballots, but rely on the registered voter rolls to mail those ballots out. Counties are tasked with tracking registered voters and stopping duplication preventing people from casting votes in two different locations and we seldom have seen this happen after decades of voting despite what some may say about the process.

Still no answers. How will the states know that the ballots they are receiving and counting have come from registered voters? We've seldom seen this happen because it has typically not been done by sending out tens of millions of ballots to unverified addresses for people who did not request them. We can go to grocery stores. We can go to liquor stores. We can go to work places. We can certainly go to polling places as well.

Suppose candidate X loses a very close race to candidate Y. Candidate X then stands up with a box containing hundreds of ballots which were mailed to dead people, wrong addresses, or to voters who received several ballots, all of which have taken place. He challenges the election on those grounds and contends that the state counted invalid ballots. How will that challenge be handled? How will anyone have any confidence in election results under those circumstances?

When I go vote, I have to show photo ID before I get a ballot. With this new version of mail in voting, how will they know that the people filling in the ballots are registered voters? How will they be sure I didn't get three ballots mailed to me by mistake and I sent all three back in? And if they don't know, then how can they be sure that the result is valid?
My son is a registered in-person voter. As registered voter, he was sent an application by the county election commission in case he wants to vote by mail because of COVID-19. He filled out the application and sent it in. On the app were blanks for various ID info plus his signature. My husband, a registered voter, also received an app in the mail, but will probably go in person to vote. I always vote by mail, received a mailed app, filled it out, and mailed it back. In the past, I have called the county election commission office, and they verified by asking me for ID that I am indeed registered before they sent me a ballot.

In Illinois, applications have been mailed to registered voters. Ballots are not mailed to them until the apps have been received and verified.

Still no answers. How will the states know that the ballots they are receiving and counting have come from registered voters?
If the state election boards are smart, they will send out APPLICATIONS to people who, if they aren't registered voters, will register to vote, and will fill out and send in those apps if they don't want to vote in person and want to vote by mail. Voters rolls are checked and marked as ballots are received.

WG, that would work fine. I think that's how it typically works for absentee ballots, or at least something similar to it. That is not, as I understand it, what is being discussed for the future. They would simply mail out ballots en masse, and hope for the best. No requests and no way of verification. Reports like these are not encouraging. "And in New York's recent primary (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-mail-ballots-voting.html), with more than 10 times the number of mail-in ballots received over recent elections, election officials are still counting absentee ballots six weeks after the election, the New York Times reported."

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/voting-during-2020-election-what-you-need-to-know-about-vote-by-mail-online-ballots-polling-places/#:~:text=The%20idea%20of%20voting%20by%20mail%20is %20straightforward.,election.%20Across%20the%20US% 2C%20postal%20voting%20is%20widespread.

WG, that would work fine. I think that's how it typically works for absentee ballots, or at least something similar to it. That is not, as I understand it, what is being discussed for the future. They would simply mail out ballots en masse, and hope for the best. No requests and no way of verification. Reports like these are not encouraging. "And in New York's recent primary (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-mail-ballots-voting.html), with more than 10 times the number of mail-in ballots received over recent elections, election officials are still counting absentee ballots six weeks after the election, the New York Times reported."

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/voting-during-2020-election-what-you-need-to-know-about-vote-by-mail-online-ballots-polling-places/#:~:text=The%20idea%20of%20voting%20by%20mail%20is %20straightforward.,election.%20Across%20the%20US% 2C%20postal%20voting%20is%20widespread.
I know states are working hard on finding efficient ways to record and count legitimate votes sent in by REGISTERED voters (despite joyboy DeJoy's tampering with and removing USPS sorting machines and reducing employee hours).

The "subtitle" of your second link's headline is:

How states are working to help registered voters cast their ballots during the pandemic. [my bolding]

"Working hard to find" is a far cry from having an efficient method in place.

While I can understand the trepidation of some trying new ways of doing things, I think we all understand that there is no instant perfect success and the ones who have gotten it right are basically those that have been doing it a long while and learned how to get it right. If you don't try to do something new or different you will never get it right ever.

I'm sure those states that have done it for decades have worked diligently to overcome their obstacles, glitches and mistakes, and so will those that have never done it before. What's stopping those that have never done it before from modeling through communications those that have?

There is no one answer to your questions since every state does things differently, so contact your own state to see what the requirements and regulations are that apply to you. If they can track your Walmart orders then I'm sure tracking ballots of registered voters can't be that hard even if the locals screw it up sometimes, but they have a process for that too, and for sure you won't get an efficient method in place unless you work hard to achieve that goal.

This is a good answer Tal for a topic that is really just another blatant attempt by Trump to sabotage the coming election. With his flunkie running the Postal SERVICE and destroying mail counters and tightening work hours, Trump hopes to skew the votes in his favor by his desperate falsehoods concerning mail-in ballots.

He still has the Russians running interference for him. It becomes more and more obvious that Putin has a stronghold on Trump - probably financial.

As warned here previously, the coming danger will be the greatest between November 3 and January 20 as madman Trump attempts to do his absolute worst to keep the presidency.

"Working hard to find" is a far cry from having an efficient method in place.
The efficient method IS in place but COVID-19 is a problem when getting the crew together to count votes. Certainly Trump will somehow make COVID disappear....

his majesty Trump (Canute) shall turn the tide of covid 19 upon his command, oh wait, didn't he already try that

his majesty Trump (Canute) shall turn the tide of covid 19 upon his command, oh wait, didn't he already try that

You're right, he tried and failed. But in his mind, he succeeded. He lives inside his mind which is a very strange place, indeed.

The dufus's mind is strange and dangerous to anything it touches. He has a habit of touching everything he can, and we watch it wither and die. Think the wingers and sycophants will pay attention? They haven't yet. They're too busy being scared in the Dufus's America of everything including their own shadow.

Still no answers. How will we know that the ballots arriving in the mail are coming from registered voters? How will we know ballots are not being intercepted in the mail? What will you say to the persons who say they never received a ballot, or who received three ballots? How will you ensure that voter roll addresses are accurate? Most of all, how will you handle the elections where a person loses a relatively close race and calls for a recount, and who can demonstrate that the system was unreliable? A recount, bear in mind, of ballots which we can't even say are entirely legitimate. I just kind of think we should answer those questions BEFORE we enter your brave, new world rather than twenty years afterward.

Forget the Post Office (which hasn't been particularly efficient in my lifetime) and forget the excuses. Go to the polls and vote. So simple, and it's been working for over two centuries. We have become so soft. We can go to the liquor store, but we complain about going to vote. The guys who went ashore at Normandy must be shaking their heads in shame and amazement. Elections are far too important for this silly kind of experimentation.

Elections are far too important for this silly kind of experimentation.

you sound like a Trump mouthpiece

That's it? You have nothing of any more significance to say than that? Well, OK then. If you ever have any real answers to really important questions, feel free to express them.

That's why this board has become tedious. Ask serious, important questions, and that's what you get. "Oh, you are actually asking thoughtful, significant questions that I have no answers for, so you must be a Trump mouthpiece!!" Good grief.

Still no answers. How will we know that the ballots arriving in the mail are coming from registered voters? How will we know ballots are not being intercepted in the mail? What will you say to the persons who say they never received a ballot, or who received three ballots? How will you ensure that voter roll addresses are accurate? Most of all, how will you handle the elections where a person loses a relatively close race and calls for a recount, and who can demonstrate that the system was unreliable? A recount, bear in mind, of ballots which we can't even say are entirely legitimate. I just kind of think we should answer those questions BEFORE we enter your brave, new world rather than twenty years afterward.

Forget the Post Office (which hasn't been particularly efficient in my lifetime) and forget the excuses. Go to the polls and vote. So simple, and it's been working for over two centuries. We have become so soft. We can go to the liquor store, but we complain about going to vote. The guys who went ashore at Normandy must be shaking their heads in shame and amazement. Elections are far too important for this silly kind of experimentation.

AGAIN, in many states all those questions and bugs have been answered and addressed and are no longer an experiment . I doubt they abandon all their efforts because other states have no clue and have never tried to move in that direction which is fine, just keep doing what you've been doing. This horse is already out of the barn in many places and the door is shut. Many more are moving in the same direction so no better time to accept the new ways than now because you could be left behind by your own choice.

There is another component to this new adjustment and that's the virus, an aging volunteer force to man those in person polls, for fear of the virus and old polling machines nobody can fix, and those long lines repubs seem to love in dem urban areas. Yeah I would say plenty of reasons to find a better way and everybody loves the mailman, and resent he is being denied the chance to do the job they have always done which is worthy of praise in any weather.

Which states have been mailing out ballots to every registered voter for a general election and have had no problems? How did they make sure that the ballots were only received and sent back in by registered voters?

Your second paragraph does point out a genuine problem. A good answer might be to have polls open for two days rather than only one. Absentee ballots can be part of the answer. However, long lines are sometimes found in all kinds of communities. That's not a valid complaint.

I can only speak for Texas where early voting starts in October I believe, but you can check Colorado, Utah, Washington state and Oregon as well as Iowa for their policies and procedures that have been both efficient and secure as far as I know. There are many more.

Long lines are a valid complaint if you have to work, care for kids, old (Like my out of shape arse! 8D), or sick.

OK. So you don't know of a single place other than "as far as you know"? Sorry. That's not reassuring. No state has yet used mail out voting in a national, general election. Period. The five states you listed are going to do it this November assuming the courts allow it. I still don't know, and evidently neither does anyone on this board, the answers to the questions I have posed.

Early voting is not the same thing. That's been around for decades. We're talking about just mailing out a ballot to everyone on the voter roll and letting them mail them back in. Early voting is typically on the level of absentee voting. Different deal.

Here is one way it's being done. This sounds reasonable. They have your signature on file and validate signatures on each ballot. Ballots will not be forwarded to new addresses. Of course you still have to register and leave a signature on file. I'd like to know a little more about it, but it's at least a move in the right direction. More expensive to do, I would imagine.

https://www.kold.com/2020/07/07/fact-finders-how-secure-is-my-vote-by-mail-ballot/

https://www.newsweek.com/these-are-states-where-you-can-vote-mail-1505245

"Before the pandemic struck the U.S., only five states—Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah and Washington—conducted their elections using a vote-by-mail system. Though all states allow voters to vote by mail in certain circumstances, before the pandemic 16 required voters (https://www.newsweek.com/vote-mail-absentee-elections-covid-19-1495373)to provide reasons for those preferences before their applications were approved. Those restrictions have been significantly relaxed over the past couple of months, with many states actively working to expand options for at-home voting in an attempt to limit foot traffic at polling places."

AND https://www.newsweek.com/vote-mail-absentee-elections-covid-19-1495373

Like I said in some states the horse has left the barn and the barn door is closed.

Same questions for those five states, and they are still unanswered. Only one county in Arizona has been shown to have what seems to be safeguards. You seem all too willing to let the horse out of the barn with no saddle, no bridle, no rider, and no idea if it's coming back or not. I have not been able to find how, or if, Colorado, for instance, insures that the ballots they receive came from registered voters. I did find out that you don't have to show proof of citizenship to register to vote. No surprise there.

Your data is faulty,

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb19-1156




BILL SUMMARY

In connection with current procedures permitting an elector to register to vote on or immediately prior to or on election day, the bill requires that the elector provide a form of identification that includes proof of citizenship.

Based on the link you provided, that is a bill that was proposed in 2019 and was postponed indefinitely in committee. Look under the "bill history" tab. It seems it was never even voted on. You are legally required to be a citizen to register, but you don't have to provide proof of citizenship. That is exactly what I stated above.

"Colorado does not require proof of citizenship for voter registration."

https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_in_Colorado

Based on the link you provided, that is a bill that was proposed in 2019 and was postponed indefinitely in committee. Look under the "bill history" tab. It seems it was never even voted on. You are legally required to be a citizen to register, but you don't have to provide proof of citizenship. That is exactly what I stated above.

"Colorado does not require proof of citizenship for voter registration."

https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_in_Colorado

I suppose the thought has never occurred to you that uniformity in rules regarding voting may have some advantage, a little something about universal franchise and knowing the law no matter where you are, you are afterall, first and foremost, a citizen of the USA, that has been a fact since the Civil War and this issue of state rules is just an inconvience

Even if it didn't become a law, then the old law applies which is referred to the phrase "IN CONNECTION WITH..." MEANING THE OLD APPLICABLE LAW.

https://www.dmv.com/co/colorado/apply-id-card#:~:text=Colorado%20DMV%20ID%20Requirements.%2 0Colorado%20DMV%20state%20ID,Numbers%20or%20eviden ce%20of%20ineligibility%20for%20an%20SSN.


Colorado DMV state ID requirements mandate that applicants prove their identities, including date of birth and state residency. Applicants must also supply valid Social Security Numbers or evidence of ineligibility for an SSN. Finally, they must prove that they are citizens of the United States, or are otherwise legally present in the country.

Come on, Tal. We can read here. DMV. Department of Motor Vehicles. That's talking about getting a driver's license type of ID, not voter registration. And even for that you don't have to prove citizenship. Your own quote showed that clearly. "...or are otherwise legally present in the country."

It's a simple truth. You don't have to provide proof of citizenship to register to vote in Colorado. That's why some group introduced the bill. They wanted to change the situation, and the Colorado legislature, run by democrats, wouldn't even vote on it. That is shown by the link you provided.

https://www.dmv.org/co-colorado/voter-registration.php

You cannot register to vote without an ID which requires among other things a proof of citizenship.

"In order to register to vote in Colorado, you must be:


A United States citizen.
A Colorado resident who has lived in the state for at least 22 days before the election in which you plan to vote.
At least 18 years old by the date of the next election."

You are still in the DMV site. DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES!!! You don't have to have their DMV ID to register.

I really don't know how else to put it. The ballotopedia site I linked above says it pretty clearly.

"Verification of citizenship

See also: Laws permitting noncitizens to vote in the United States (https://ballotpedia.org/Laws_permitting_noncitizens_to_vote_in_the_United_ States)

Colorado does not require proof of citizenship for voter registration."

Even your own link above showed it clearly when speaking of the DMV ID card. "Finally, they must prove that they are citizens of the United States, or are otherwise legally present in the country."

I am not suggesting that Colorado is allowing illegals to vote by the hundreds of thousands, but it would certainly seem to be pretty logical to require proof of citizenship to register to vote. It is important.

Federal law says that only citizens can vote in a national election, even though states allow some non-citizens to vote in some local elections.

Federal law also says illegals cannot be employed. How's that working out? Saying you must be a citizen to vote is one thing. Ensuring that only citizens can register is a different story. Wouldn't requiring a SS card and photo ID to register be fairly logical?

Which states have been mailing out ballots to every registered voter for a general election and have had no problems? How did they make sure that the ballots were only received and sent back in by registered voters?
Ballots haven't even been printed yet. I called our county board of election commissioners yesterday to find out how this is being handled. I was told ballots in Illinois will be mailed out on or slightly before October 24th only to registered voters who have properly filled out and returned an application. When ballots are mailed in to the county, they will be checked and doublechecked for duplication. I asked if my application has been received yet. He verified my name, rank, and serial number (i.e., my personal information on file), and yes, I am on the mailing list to receive a ballot. ONE ballot.


Here is one way it's being done. This sounds reasonable. They have your signature on file and validate signatures on each ballot. Ballots will not be forwarded to new addresses. Of course you still have to register and leave a signature on file. I'd like to know a little more about it, but it's at least a move in the right direction. More expensive to do, I would imagine.
My signature is on file and I had to sign the application for a ballot. I will be sent ONE ballot.

Federal law also says illegals cannot be employed. How's that working out? Saying you must be a citizen to vote is one thing. Ensuring that only citizens can register is a different story. Wouldn't requiring a SS card and photo ID to register be fairly logical?

Don't ask me why there are 50 different ways of doing things surrounding state and local functions or why not everyone has the same logic or levels of enforcement. Frankly I have a hard enough time dealing with my own state government and meeting requirements they demand to function lawfully.

don't you think this might be a diversion started by Trump along with his many other diversions

don't you think this might be a diversion started by Trump along with his many other diversions

No doubt at all he is just throwing crap in the game like he always does.

A Trump diversion? Yeah. That's bound to be it. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with legit concerns about a secure and reliable election.

A Trump diversion? Yeah. That's bound to be it. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with legit concerns about a secure and reliable election.

What makes you think Trump could have any concerns about that, his only concern is what advantages him, which of course are the same concerns the demonrats have

I guess we could start with the questions I asked on this board that no one had answers to.

why? if we didn't answer then then we arn't going to answer them now, you missed a whole week of discussion, we covered all of that earlier and don't want to endlessly review the issues.

Just face it, there are holes in the electoral process, this is because you think you live in a democracy but you don't

you missed a whole week of discussion, we covered all of that earlier and don't want to endlessly review the issues.That won't work. I read the discussions I missed. No answers. Try again.

We think we live in a democracy but we don't? Hmm. Definition of democracy. "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives." Sure sounds a lot like us.

That won't work. I read the discussions I missed. No answers. Try again but be honest this time.

We think we live in a democracy but we don't? Hmm. Definition of democracy. "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives." Sure sounds a lot like us.

I always give you my honest opinion, it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. As Tom has taken great pains to point out often, you live in a constitutional republic which is not a democracy

I was referring to your contention that the questions I posed had been answered earlier in the thread and you simply didn't want to repeat them. Sorry. I just rather doubt that. I read the posts that preceded mine and didn't notice anything that even approached being an answer to my questions. Perhaps I missed them. Feel free to post them if I did. I will be happy to admit my error.

As to democracy, we are not a pure democracy. Neither is, to my understanding, anyone else. All democracies operate around a fixed set of "rules". Ours is our Constitution, but all advanced nations have something similar. Otherwise we would be starting over every year, and no one does that. Now being a republic does change things somewhat, but that does not negate the fact that our country is operated by democratically elected representatives and a democratically elected executive.

We have 50 states empowered to run their affairs and govern as they see fit within the framework of the federal law under that constitution, so why be surprised that there are different answers to your questions? Whether you accept them or not is up to you.

I'm not surprised that a red stater such as yourself criticizes blue state controlled policy, governance and language, and questions the logic, so be it as I do the same, but I've never lived in anything but conservative red states even if it's the blue neighborhood. 8D!

https://www.findlaw.com/voting/my-voting-guide/can-noncitizens-vote-in-the-united-states-.html

Seems voting is an ever evolving process, imperfect and complicated as well as tedious. States make their own rules. That's the simple answer.

States make their own rules. That's the simple answer.That is no answer at all. It's simply stating the obvious.

Told you, no answers here

That is no answer at all. It's simply stating the obvious.

The obvious IS the answer! Accept it or NOT!

The obvious? You mean that we still don't know the answers to the questions? OK. I accept that.

When I go vote, I have to show photo ID before I get a ballot. With this new version of mail in voting, how will they know that the people filling in the ballots are registered voters?
They don't and they are content with that reality . The emperor and the Quid went out of their way to oppose even the normal purging of the rolls to eliminate the dead and those who have moved out of the district . They called it suppression to even propose that .



How will they be sure I didn't get three ballots mailed to me by mistake and I sent all three back in? And if they don't know, then how can they be sure that the result is valid? There is no verification with mail in ballots . Here in bluer than blue NY we have to sign in at the polls . There are poll watchers who compare out signatures to pervious signatures on record .
Nothing like that happens with mail in ballots . They just start counting them. States that allow harvesting are open to even more possibilities of fraud . I heard reports here in NY during the primaries ,that some people tossed the ballots mailed to them thinking they were sample ballots that are sometimes mailed out . AND as I've mentioned already ; it appears to be the norm that around 20% of the mail in ballots were tossed because of various challenges to them during the count . It took 3 weeks to count a couple of the Democrat primary votes ;and the number of ballots disqualified were more than the difference in the contests .

But we know already that is the game plan by the Dems . They don't want the election resolved on November 3 . They want it unresolved on Jan 20 .

The method used in the county in Arizona might be effective, but to have to check signatures for every ballot mailed in would be, I would think, expensive, and if your ballot gets disapproved, I guess you'd never know your vote didn't count.

There is no verification with mail in ballots .
In Illinois there is! As I said in an earlier post in this thread, I received by mail and filled out an APPLICATION for a ballot WITH MY SIGNATURE that is on file and sent it to my county's election commissioner's office. I called a week or so later to make sure they had received my app (which they had) AFTER they verified who I am. Illinois is sending out appplications, NOT ballots. If verifiable apps have been received, the REGISTERED voter will receive a ballot if all his/her information/signature lines up. I also asked about mail-in and in-person vote counting, but you wouldn't believe anything I posted, so I won't fill your head with details.

The method used in the county in Arizona might be effective, but to have to check signatures for every ballot mailed in would be, I would think, expensive, and if your ballot gets disapproved, I guess you'd never know your vote didn't count.
Check the Arizona voting site. It doesn't sound like it works that way. Registration comes first. No ballots are sent out willy-nilly.

https://followmyvote.com/voter-resources/online-voting-voter-registration-by-state/online-voting-in-arizona/

Are we forgetting that winning the popular vote doesn't mean you win the election?

WG, it sounds like that amounts to absentee ballots. It's not what we've been discussing. Our topic has been the latest plan to just mail ballots out to everyone on the voter list, requested or not. Not the same thing.

Besides one being requested and the other not, please explain the difference and what difference it makes. Even if the voter declines to use the mailed ballots is that a concern for fraud? I don't, but think its the next logical step after years of absentee voting and a logical step to safety amid the covid virus threat. almost 190 thousand dead and we should ignore that, or the 6 million cases and what of those to sick to vote, or quarantined at the last crucial moment?

The right has hollered voter fraud for decades and have yet to produce any of significance, while making laws based on those unfounded fears. I see those objections and actions as just another attempt at targeted voter suppression, like all of a sudden the pressure on the post office and the rolling slowdowns because of sickness and slashing of the means to cover those manpower shortfalls.

If I request a ballot, they will have documentation of my request including my signature, and they will know my address is correct. In other words, they know a registered voter is home. As to COVID deaths, did you read the latest report from the CDC regarding that issue?

If you're mailed a ballot without a request they still have your information and it's reasonable to assume you're the one getting it, just like meds or checks or BILLS, whether use use it or not.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/opinions/colorado-debunking-myths-mail-in-voting-trump-stern/index.html

https://www.9news.com/article/news/politics/colorado-is-a-leader-in-mail-in-ballot-voting/73-d1e49cef-8558-4b49-9a00-956ebd20fa53

Tell us what's the latest CDC says about the virus.

Virus, are we still talking about yesterday, today the issue is to Trump or not to Trump, that is the question, whether to plumb the depths of dispair, or scale the heights of rhetoric, soring even unto utopia

it's reasonable to assumeThe flaw in your thinking.

CDC analysis of Covid data shows that only 6% of deaths were from Covid only. The other 94% were from other health factors which contributed to the deaths.

CDC analysis of Covid data shows that only 6% of deaths were from Covid only. The other 94% were from other health factors which contributed to the deaths.

yes but without covid those deaths would have not happened when they did. The lesson is the nation, the world, population is unhealthy, full of life style disease

The flaw in your thinking.

There is always a flaw in human thinking, but you could acknowledge the progress states like Colorado have achieved over the last several years and election cycles and no one was objecting when Senator Cory Gardner was elected under this system and now it's an abomination?

I acknowledge your concerns though with states that have never done this before and have no experience or the support infrastructure and policies and procedures in place to address those issues you have raised. Anything humans do can always be improved on.


https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jlisenbe https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3857191#post3857191)
CDC analysis of Covid data shows that only 6% of deaths were from Covid only. The other 94% were from other health factors which contributed to the deaths.


That's pretty specific, but something we already knew in the general sense of who was more at risk of dying because of the covid infection.

covid is something we will learn to live with, like the common cold, and what we have to learn is to abandon the fast food culture and be less fat

I think you have completely missed the point. I'm not arguing against mail in voting. I'm asking questions that any reasonable person who has an interest in honest elections should be asking. That you defend mail in voting and yet can't answer those questions is amazing to me. That you don't see that as a problem is even more astonishing.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jlisenbe https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3857191#post3857191)

CDC analysis of Covid data shows that only 6% of deaths were from Covid only. The other 94% were from other health factors which contributed to the deaths.

from talaniman;
That's pretty specific, but something we already knew in the general sense of who was more at risk of dying because of the covid infection.


The CDC has lost much of its credibility. Under Redfield, it has become a shill for Trump - which is exactly what Trump wants so he can promote his falsehoods through that agency.

The Center for Science in the Public Interest accused (https://cspinet.org/news/cspi-urges-administration-not-appoint-dr-robert-redfield-history-scientific-misconduct-cdc) Redfield of having a bad record “and an extreme religious agenda.” Redfield was appointed in 2018.

However, the 6% statistic was NOT the fault of the CDC. The 6% death figure, retweeted by Trump and QANON, has since been deleted. It was incorrect and showed a misunderstanding of how deaths are classified.

The full story can be found here: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cdc-did-not-admit-only-6-of-recorded-deaths-from-covid-19/

I think you have completely missed the point. I'm not arguing against mail in voting. I'm asking questions that any reasonable person who has an interest in honest elections should be asking. That you defend mail in voting and yet can't answer those questions is amazing to me. That you don't see that as a problem is even more astonishing.

Perhaps my guiding you to find those answers has been inadequate so let me try that again in keeping with the example we have been using.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/elections/main.html?menuheaders= (https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/elections/main.html?menuheaders=5)

I see problems as opportunities to resolve issues and not a reason to not take actions that are necessary for better outcomes given particular circumstance. I daresay I have found answers to your questions that satisfy me, even if you are unsatisfied, so no I don't see the problems you ask as being unresolved.

@Athos.

Thanks for clarifying the facts for us as they do make a difference in how we process data. Unfortunately everybody is not as diligent in presenting such facts of which I am guilty of far to much.

CDC analysis of Covid data shows that only 6% of deaths were from Covid only. The other 94% were from other health factors which contributed to the deaths.
Like 'Clete said ("yes but without covid those deaths would have not happened when they did"). For instance, I have a friend who has diabetes. She and her doctor are managing it very nicely. She's scared she'll get Covid and end up dead -- not from the diabetes, but because Covid complicated things and hastened her demise.

Perhaps my guiding you to find those answers has been inadequate so let me try that again in keeping with the example we have been using.So your guiding amounts to another link that you likely have not read, and one that only concerns Colorado at that? No thanks. If you can't answer the questions, then just admit you don't know. Would be a lot easier.

As to the CDC data, it's interesting that some consider the CDC to be a "shill for Trump", but then proceed to refer to CDC data as though it's completely reliable. Well, you can't have it both ways. At any rate, Trump's portrayal of the data, unsurprisingly, was inaccurate. He stupidly retweets material that anyone on his staff could verify in ten minutes. But the fact remains that the great majority of Covid deaths occur in people with underlying health problems. In other words, an already unhealthy person got the virus and died. So to say that 160,000 people have died of the Covid virus is not entirely accurate. It's on the level of a person with serious cardiac problems having a car wreck and dying, and it getting reported that he/she was "killed by a car wreck". But a healthy person would not have died, so that's the dilemma.

CDC is stating an obvious irrelevant point . From the earliest reporting it has been clear that people are at worst risk when they suffer contributing factors.Would they have died if they did not get Covid 19 ? . There are often contributing factors in deaths ,most don't get on the death certificate .Cause of death pneumonia . Contributing factor cardio illness etc .

The problem with the mail in balloting in this cycle is that states that don't have a proper verifiable system in place have rushed sending out ballots . In the case of NJ the dictator decided that ONLY mail in ballots will count and people who go to the polls will have their ballots considered as provisional . Bass ackwards . Assuming we MUST accommodate those who are afraid to go to their polling place ,shouldn't it be on them to REQUEST an absentee ballot ,instead of this willy nillie way, mailing ballots out as if they were just any piece of junk mail ?

The moral of the story seems to be that healthy people are not in any great danger of dying from Covid.

So to say that 160,000 people have died of the Covid virus is not entirely accurate. It's on the level of a person with serious cardiac problems having a car wreck and dying, and it getting reported that he/she was "killed by a car wreck". But a healthy person would not have died, so that's the dilemma.
Nope. He/she WAS killed in a car wreck. Covid goes after weakened body parts and kills people who have COPD, diabetes, heart problems, kidney disease, and more -- and, if you don't have any medical problems, Covid will weaken your body in some way so you'll be much more susceptible to illness..

https://www.eatthis.com/covid-19-cdc-high-risk-list/?utm_source=yahoo-news&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=yahoo-feed

Nope. He/she WAS killed in a car wreck.Nope. He/she DIED in a car wreck. What killed the person? Hard to say. Did the trauma of the wreck induce a heart attack? Quite possible, and that's the whole point. The vast majority of those who have died from Covid had other health issues from the outset. Covid was a contributor, but by no means the only, or even primary, cause of death. Referred to as comorbidity.

I'm just curious about the link you provided. Did anything in it surprise you, or contradict anything that's been said already? Not sure what your point is.

If all of that is not enough, the NY Times, hardly a bastion of Trump supporters, reported recently that the great majority of people testing positive for Covid, perhaps as much as 90%, have so little of the virus that they pose no risk to others and have no real need to quarantine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html

https://headlineusa.com/nytimes-vast-majority-of-covid-cases-likely-not-contagious/

I realize this is all getting off topic. My apologies. I will redirect myself.

So your guiding amounts to another link that you likely have not read, and one that only concerns Colorado at that? No thanks. If you can't answer the questions, then just admit you don't know. Would be a lot easier.

I'm trying to learn and get answers too dude, and we were specifically using the Colorado model to that end.


As to the CDC data, it's interesting that some consider the CDC to be a "shill for Trump", but then proceed to refer to CDC data as though it's completely reliable. Well, you can't have it both ways. At any rate, Trump's portrayal of the data, unsurprisingly, was inaccurate. He stupidly retweets material that anyone on his staff could verify in ten minutes. But the fact remains that the great majority of Covid deaths occur in people with underlying health problems. In other words, an already unhealthy person got the virus and died. So to say that 160,000 people have died of the Covid virus is not entirely accurate. It's on the level of a person with serious cardiac problems having a car wreck and dying, and it getting reported that he/she was "killed by a car wreck". But a healthy person would not have died, so that's the dilemma.

Fact is a lot of people have health issues be they addressed, or not and this covid virus acts on those issues and is dangerous enough to raise the potential of death in many. Even some with NO issues can and have died as a result of contracting it. We cannot predict the outcomes of contraction, nor can we ignore those possibilities either.

The problem with the mail in balloting in this cycle is that states that don't have a proper verifiable system in place have rushed sending out ballots . In the case of NJ the dictator decided that ONLY mail in ballots will count and people who go to the polls will have their ballots considered as provisional . Bass ackwards . Assuming we MUST accommodate those who are afraid to go to their polling place ,shouldn't it be on them to REQUEST an absentee ballot ,instead of this willy nillie way, mailing ballots out as if they were just any piece of junk mail ?

Glad you specified the issue of mail in ballots tied to THIS CYCLE, while forgetting the circumstance of covid virus which is the driving underlying fear that surrounds not just voting but the whole freaking economy and way of life we have enjoyed and considered as normal.

I can agree that people should be requesting ballots, but sadly too many don't have a clue of how to go about it. After years of repub shenanigans to suppress the vote, surely you can understand the reactions of dems to increase the vote.

I'm trying to learn and get answers too dude, and we were specifically using the Colorado model to that end.Fair enough. I'm looking for answers as well. I think just mass mailing ballots, which has been proposed, is a terrible idea, but the way it's done in the Arizona district I linked to seemed reasonable.

There is another consideration. Should healthy people be expected to get off their duffs, get out of the house, and go vote? Is it wise to make everything TOO easy? Should those too lazy to work be allowed to vote? Should welfare recipients have the right to vote for pols who promise to take money from working Americans to give to the welfare crowd? Should people who pay no taxes be allowed to vote? Should people who live in tents on the streets of San Francisco have the same right to vote that people who discipline their lives to work for a living have? I'm assuming all of these people are mentally and physically healthy. Should they have the same right to vote as people who work and pay taxes?

I'm just speaking in general terms and not considering Covid.

After years of repub shenanigans to suppress the vote yeah ok . Dems think cleaning voter rolls as suppression .

Let the dead vote!! Suffrage for the dead! 8D

As of today, the number of deaths from Covid are approaching 188,000. For those who need to understand this figure, I've added a link which explains the death count.


https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cd...from-covid-19/

Your link is a link to nowhere.

Not sure what "understanding" of the figure is needed. It's 1,000 less than 189,000?

My apologies - this is the link.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cdc-did-not-admit-only-6-of-recorded-deaths-from-covid-19/

Fair enough. I'm looking for answers as well. I think just mass mailing ballots, which has been proposed, is a terrible idea, but the way it's done in the Arizona district I linked to seemed reasonable.

I can go with that at face value and sorry I didn't find the link you mentioned, and if you could be so kind to re-provide the link or highlight the points you like I will peruse it and give my feedback.


There is another consideration. Should healthy people be expected to get off their duffs, get out of the house, and go vote? Is it wise to make everything TOO easy? Should those too lazy to work be allowed to vote? Should welfare recipients have the right to vote for pols who promise to take money from working Americans to give to the welfare crowd? Should people who pay no taxes be allowed to vote? Should people who live in tents on the streets of San Francisco have the same right to vote that people who discipline their lives to work for a living have? I'm assuming all of these people are mentally and physically healthy. Should they have the same right to vote as people who work and pay taxes?

By Constitution every one has equal protection and rights under the law and no consideration is given to disposition, attitude, aptitude or ability, or any other arbitrary classification. My answer is yes everyone should be able to vote without discrimination or contrivance.


I'm just speaking in general terms and not considering Covid.

Hard to dismiss or ignore such a devastating condition, but I get your point, thus my answer above.


yeah ok . Dems think cleaning voter rolls as suppression .

The way repubs do it you're darn skippy.

I can go with that at face value and sorry I didn't find the link you mentioned, and if you could be so kind to re-provide the link or highlight the points you like I will peruse it and give my feedback.Happy to. https://www.kold.com/2020/07/07/fact-finders-how-secure-is-my-vote-by-mail-ballot/


By Constitution every one has equal protection and rights under the law and no consideration is given to disposition, attitude, aptitude or ability, or any other arbitrary classification. My answer is yes everyone should be able to vote without discrimination or contrivance.I understand that. I was just suggesting some potential changes. I think that in order to vote, you should have, as they say, some "skin in the game." At any rate, we don't let those under 18 vote and individuals in jail usually cannot vote, so it is restricted. In the American revolution, the battlecry was, "No taxation with representation." Perhaps we should examine, "No representation without taxation." Just throwing it out there for discussion sake.

My reference to Covid was just to say that I was thinking long term and not just for 2020.

Upon my return to posting, I am trying hard not to be a smartaxx. You can feel free to call me out if needed. I do know I can have a tendency in that direction.

My apologies - this is the link.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cd...from-covid-19/ (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cdc-did-not-admit-only-6-of-recorded-deaths-from-covid-19/)Isn't that the same link you posted yesterday? https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showpost.php?p=3857196&postcount=91

At any rate, the basic argument seems to center around how much impact Covid had on those who died. I imagine it ranges from a little to a lot.

Upon my return to posting, I am trying hard not to be a smartaxx. You can feel free to call me out if needed. I do know I can have a tendency in that direction.
But we love you anyway! -- and missed you terribly!

But we love you anyway! -- and missed you terribly!We're just one, big happy family!!

emphasis on the happy

Isn't that the same link you posted yesterday? https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showpost.php?p=3857196&postcount=91

At any rate, the basic argument seems to center around how much impact Covid had on those who died. I imagine it ranges from a little to a lot.

Yes, it's the same link. You said it went nowhere, so I posted it again. It explains why the 6% business was incorrect and was a full explanation of the accuracy of the death count due to COVID being around 188,000. It notes how Trump and QANON retweeted the false information.

Here's a sampling from Dr. Fauci:

“So the numbers you’ve been hearing — the 180,000-plus deaths — are real deaths from Covid-19. Let [there] not be any confusion about that,” Fauci said.

CDC describes it this way. "Conditions Contributing to Deaths where COVID-19 was listed on the death certificate" In other words, Covid was not the only cause.

Additionally, this was stated. "For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death."

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3xvPBE9Q6NXcwqMIGtg439k100XtM fvy-9YBimKZMOSSRpCwiitPLS3vs#Comorbidities

We already knew that people with health issues were at higher risk but 6% of deaths had NO high risk conditions meaning otherwise healthy people can die from this disease. (If you believe the given figure)


NOTE: Number of deaths reported in this table are the total number of deaths received and coded as of the date of analysis and do not represent all deaths that occurred in that period. Counts of deaths occurring before or after the reporting period are not included in the table.
*Data during this period are incomplete because of the lag in time between when the death occurred and when the death certificate is completed, submitted to NCHS and processed for reporting purposes. This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death.


Indicates a higher number than reported. Not good no matter how you look at it.

If C-19 did not exist.. How many of the dead would be alive ? The vast majority would . They can't be suggesting that contributing factors are the major cause of death.

Let's face it . The CDC has been a POS organization for years ....just like the WHO

All you have to do is a quick search to find sourcing like this :


https://www.virology.ws/2019/03/25/trial-by-error-the-cdcs-pathetic-response-to-reuters/

https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/13/health/ebola-cdc/index.html

They screwed up the testing

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/what-went-wrong-with-the-coronavirus-tests/2020/03/07/915f5dea-5d82-11ea-b29b-9db42f7803a7_story.html

They misreport test results
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/05/cdc-and-states-are-misreporting-covid-19-test-data-pennsylvania-georgia-texas/611935/

All you need to know about the CDC is that at a critical time early in the pandemic when giving the correct information to the public could've saved lives ;the CDC and the sanctified Dr Fauchi outright lied to us about the need to wear masks .

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

6% of deaths had NO high risk conditionsActually, it doesn't even say that. It simply noted that there were no other health conditions noted in the reports. Might have been there, and yet they didn't report it.


If C-19 did not exist.. How many of the dead would be alive ? The vast majority would .That's an interesting question to ponder. Another would be, "How many of the dead would have still been alive 12 or 24 months from now without Covid?" I would imagine it would be many fewer.

Forget EVERYBODY else, just follow your leader!

Forget EVERYBODY else, just follow your leader!

For leader, the pick is between an orange-headed goofball OR the leading epidemiologist in the USA.

“So the numbers you’ve been hearing — the 180,000-plus deaths — are real deaths from Covid-19. Let [there] not be any confusion about that,” Fauci said.

Is that the same "leading epidemiologist" who advised us NOT to wear masks back in the spring?

Back then, Fauci told “60 Minutes” that face masks might make people “feel a little bit better,” but they simply don’t protect people and, instead, bring “unintended consequences.”
“When it comes to preventing coronavirus, public health officials have been clear: Healthy people do not need to wear a face mask to protect themselves from COVID-19,” CBS News reported March 8. citing Fauci.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/watch-remember-fauci-said-masks-might-make-feel-little-bit-better-wont-stem-spread-covid-19/

the leading epidemiologist in the USA. He is a life time government bureaucrat . This demigod Fauci is the same one who said it was ok to take cruises during the pandemic . January he told us there was no risk . He also argued against the flight ban from China . Even worse about the masks ;he knew he was lying . As he later admitted he was concerned that there would be a shortage of masks . So he said the public doesn't need to wear them.

Is that the same "leading epidemiologist" who advised us NOT to wear masks back in the spring?

Back then, Fauci told “60 Minutes” that face masks might make people “feel a little bit better,” but they simply don’t protect people and, instead, bring “unintended consequences.”
“When it comes to preventing coronavirus, public health officials have been clear: Healthy people do not need to wear a face mask to protect themselves from COVID-19,” CBS News reported March 8. citing Fauci.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/watch-remember-fauci-said-masks-might-make-feel-little-bit-better-wont-stem-spread-covid-19/

Guess he was wrong, but was he as wrong as the dufus who said it would disappear when the weather warmed up? Or he had it under control when there was only 15 deaths? , Is the dufus wrong now, declaring today we've turned a corner on the virus?

You tell me who I should believe?

Biden, for sure. The man who is really convinced that Edison did not invent the light bulb. Real science and history expert, so he likely knows a lot about medicine.

In the meantime, 1.4 million jobs added in August. Stock market up more than 50% during the Trump years. Hmmm. Sounds like the guy knows something about the economy.

In the meantime, 1.4 million jobs added in August. Stock market up more than 50% during the Trump years. Hmmm. Sounds like the guy knows something about the economy.
He knows only because HIS stocks are up. He had nothing to do with it.

Oh please. He has done what Obama did not come close to in his eight years. You just hate the guy and refuse to give him credit for anything. Besides, just improving stocks he owns would not raise the DJIA by that amount. And to say he had nothing to do with it??? He's the president of the United States. He had a LOT to do with it.

how could he have anything to do with it when he has had a obstructionist house, are you saying you have a tariff led recovery?

The only thing the dufus has done is give rich guys a tax cut, and appoint conservative judges and take credit for a growing economy Obama had to build from scratch. Wall Street hasn't crashed because the fed is pumping trillion into it to keep us from a disaster.

The dufus claim to fame is lying, cheating, and stealing.

Your basic argument is that you hate Trump, so he couldn't have done anything good. Well, the stock market is up drastically, jobs are recovering, and unemployment was at historic lows when the Covid disaster hit, so I guess we just have to chalk it up to incredible coincidences. Remember that the growth in manufacturing jobs in Trump's first 18 months was 10 TIMES greater than in Obama's 96 months. Coincidence?

In the meantime, Trump's approval ratings are back up to pre-Covid levels, and that explains the assault of unsourced accusations from the left. They are terrified. And I say this as a non fan of Trump, but I am willing to give credit where credit is due. I have no rabid hatred of him to cloud my judgment.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-approval-up-pre-coronavirus

No, my argument was stated in post 129 and you can quote me on that.

Obama doubled the national debt in only 8 years so your fed argument doesn’t work.

hatred clouds judgment. If Obama had accomplished what Trump has you would be singing his praises.

Obama doubled the national debt in only 8 years so your fed argument doesn’t work.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/12/fed-to-pump-more-than-500-billion-into-short-term-bank-funding-expand-types-of-security-purchases.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/investor/2020/06/23/will-the-market-crash-now-that-the-fed-stopped-pumping-the-stock-market/#4190cc5355f4

https://needtoknow.news/2020/03/the-federal-reserve-has-already-pumped-9-trillion-into-wall-street-in-the-past-six-months-and-now-is-offering-banks-another-1-5-trillion/


hatred clouds judgment. If Obama had accomplished what Trump has you would be singing his praises.

Obama dealt with his health and economic crisis's, is it too much to expect the same of this dufus?

I have pointed out his economic successes which far surpass anything that Obama did. Your general approach is to cheer wildly for anything associated with Obama and to dismiss anything associated with trump. Hard to carry on that kind of discussion.

LOL, hard to have a discussion when you wildly exaggerate the dufus accomplishments while minimizing what was done before him. Like giving Edison all the credit for the light bulb and ignoring the improvement Latimer made to it.

I get it though given a big election is on the horizon, and covid has everyone screwed up and on edge. The dufus works for you, but not for me, thus my support for Biden, and mail in voting. That won't change. I'm ready to vote my own interests, and do what I have to survive despite the challenges as I always have.

Probably the same as you are.

you wildly exaggerate the dufus accomplishmentsHow did I do that?

I give Edison all the credit for developing the first practical light bulb, just like every other even halfway knowledgeable person in the world does except for Biden and (possibly) you.


thus my support for Biden, and mail in voting.Interesting that your support for mail-in voting is tied to wanting Biden to win. So much for objectivity on your part.

Clete, are you familiar with this story?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ppb0fsYFM

How did I do that?

I laid it out in post 135, and 133.


I give Edison all the credit for developing the first practical light bulb, just like every other even halfway knowledgeable person in the world does except for Biden and (possibly) you.

I don't, and historical FACTS are on my side.

https://www.livescience.com/43424-who-invented-the-light-bulb.html#:~:text=The%20story%20of%20the%20light%2 0bulb%20begins%20long,practical%20method%20of%20ge nerating%20electricity%2C%20the%20voltaic%20pile.


In 1882, Lewis Howard Latimer, one of Edison's researchers, patented a more efficient way of manufacturing carbon filaments. And in 1903, Willis R. Whitney invented a treatment for these filaments that allowed them to burn bright without darkening the insides of their glass bulbs.

Just one of many involved in the development of the light bulb that had been going on for years.


Interesting that your support for mail-in voting is tied to wanting Biden to win. So much for objectivity on your part.

Actually you confuse my choice for president, with my choice for how to vote. I actually would prefer biometric ID's and electronic voting but by mail is where we're at.

Ok. I give up. Thomas Edison did not actually invent the light bulb. Every reputable history book needs to be changed. Every historian with even half a brain must change what he or she teaches since after all that fount of knowledge named Biden knows it all.

Your two posts laid out nothing.

Would you rather debate who discovered America?

Clete, are you familiar with this story?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ppb0fsYFM


Yes one of the great actions the RAN took part in in WWII, up there with the Sydney. We hear a great deal about US exploits but we Aussies fought the japs with little resources and stopped them in New Guinea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Sydney_(1912)#:~:text=HMAS%20Sydney%20was%20a %20Chatham-class%20light%20cruiser%20of,Expeditionary%20Force %2C%20and%20escorting%20the%20first%20ANZAC%20conv oy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Milne_Bay

Perhaps you are familiar with these unsung stories

I was not. I enjoyed the reading.

As I noted ,the game plan of the Dems has been revealed . Axios reported that the Dems expect that initially at least Trump will win a decisive victory ...... and then they will start 'counting ' the mail in ballots .Evita has advised Quid to not concede the race even if Trump appears to have won a decisive victory. As we know already ,states that did not have mail in voting previously had trouble with their counts in the primaries where some results for Congressional primaries took 6 weeks ,and are still contested 3 months later .

https://www.axios.com/bloomberg-group-trump-election-night-scenarios-a554e8f5-9702-437e-ae75-d2be478d42bb.html

Once they start counting the mail in ballots the election results will turn and Biden will "win" according to the scenario .

I think the challenges to the election results, and the inevitable chaos will last weeks or more ;perhaps even past the Jan 20 transition date .

Are the Dems preparing for that scenario ? Of course they are .

A so called bi-partisan group has game played the scenario. The Transition Integrity Project claims to be non-partisan . But they are a collection of Biden supporting leftists and NeverTrumpers . Rosa Brooks who founded the group is a Biden supporter and a contributor to his campaign. There are NO Trump supporters in the group . Brooks was was Counselor to Under Secretary of Defense for Policy and Special Coordinator for Rule of Law and Humanitarian Policy under the emperor , along with a Senior Advisor t0 Bill Clinton’s State Department. She also served as Special Counsel to the President at the Open Society Institute (aka George Soros) and now serves on the advisory board of the foundation . Last month the group published their report .

https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2020/08/04/transition-integrity-project-preventing-a-disrupted-presidential-election-and-transition/

They assess that Trump is likely to contest the result by both legal and extra-legal means, in an attempt to hold onto power. According to Brooks ,"All of our scenarios ended in both street-level violence and political impasse," (as if this isn't happening now with the "peaceful protests " by the milita wings on the Democratic Party ;Antifa and BLM ). Quid predicted on 'The Daily Show ' that Trump would have to be escorted out of office by the military .

That's not so far fetched given the hyper partisanship of the politics and the sophistication of both sides. You just left out the other side, your side in this grand scheme to defeat the dufus which as you highlighted in your last paragraph painting social unrest as a political end and conflating protesters with criminals working together. Right out of the right wing re elect the dufus playbook. The rights strategy of suppressing the DEM vote is old as the hills and can be seen best with the dufus shenanigans with mail delivery coupled with the massive fraud lie about mail in voting.

Let's not forget even the right wing 2nd amendment folks taking to those same streets for the dufus to "defend " cops and property supposedly adding more confusion to the basic message of police brutality against black people that goes back decades yet unheeded and unattended.

So lets be fair and balanced here Tom just for the sake of accuracy, because the wingers on the right are scheming just as hard as the left, with the money to do it, even if they are back in the shadows. Nice try though just spinning the left as the partisan bad guys and ignoring they can't all be just the left, as many repubs have crossed over, and protestors are not just black people. You, and the dufus need every white vote you can scare up, racists, extremists and nut cases alike.

We all know that results won't be tallied the same night, that's no big deal for anyone but a great weapon to be used so the dufus can holler rigged...AGAIN! Heck Tom, he started that cry months ago.

As I noted ,the game plan of the Dems has been revealed .

Once they start counting the mail in ballots the election results will turn and Biden will "win" according to the scenario .

I think the challenges to the election results, and the inevitable chaos will last weeks or more ;perhaps even past the Jan 20 transition date .

Another conspiracy theory. I'm starting to think tom is the source of many of them.

The links I provide prove the Dems are the ones hung up on conspiracy theories .' The Transition Integrity Project ' put out the various scenarios they believe Trump will attempt to steal the election .
This scenario called 'The Red Mirage' was told to HBO by an analytical group assembled by nanny Bloomy to support the Dems ,
https://www.axios.com/bloomberg-group-trump-election-night-scenarios-a554e8f5-9702-437e-ae75-d2be478d42bb.html

painting social unrest as a political end and conflating protesters with criminals working together. Right out of the right wing re elect the dufus playbook.

Sorry it is the 'peaceful protesters 'that are playing into Trump's hand . Here is an incident Saturday at the Pittsburg 'Civil Saturday ' protest where BLM activist clear out a restaurant's outdoor dining area ;vandalize /destroy property ,and accost an elderly couple . This is guaranteed to make it into a Trump campaign ad .
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/restaurants-bars/black-lives-matter-protester-drinks-womans-beer-as-diners-harassed/news-story/cccd012893b7bc227fa218d90616ee5d

A bit of exaggeration for effect eh Tom?

Sorry it is the 'peaceful protesters 'that are playing into Trump's hand . Here is an incident Saturday at the Pittsburg 'Civil Saturday ' protest where BLM activist clear out a restaurant's outdoor dining area ;vandalize /destroy property ,and accost an elderly couple . This is guaranteed to make it into a Trump campaign ad .
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/restaurants-bars/black-lives-matter-protester-drinks-womans-beer-as-diners-harassed/news-story/cccd012893b7bc227fa218d90616ee5d

That video is a disgrace to the Black Lives Matter movement. Violent "protestors" like those in the video are NOT helping the movement. These incidents should get TV press coverage just like the bad police actions.

Athos I can agree that it doesn't help the cause they are protesting for, but it's hardly "BLM activist clear out a restaurant's outdoor dining area ;vandalize /destroy property ,and accost an elderly couple"! In your face white people, yes and as inappropriate as harassing the woman in the diner. Yes they will make political hay over it, as they are with "defund the police" and back in the day "burn baby burn". fallout.

Still no excuse to ignore or condone police brutality, or it's fallout. Bad behavior breeds more bad behavior, over time.

Still no excuse to ignore or condone police brutality, or it's fallout. Bad behavior breeds more bad behavior, over time.

Never would I ignore police brutality. Nor would I ignore (or justify) the actions portrayed in the video. I'm not equating the two, I'm saying they are NOT reminiscent of MLK or John Lewis or any decent person. They will only hurt support for Black Lives Matter.

BLM is just another liberal action fiest, any distraction will do. Cops kill more whites than blacks, but any killing of a black is sensationalised. Yes there have been what appear to be unnecessary killings and police brutality but there has also been mob brutality

BLM is just another liberal action fiest, any distraction will do.

BLM is a protest against cops killing blacks unnecessarily. All sides (right and left) should support such a movement.


Cops kill more whites than blacks,

Irrelevant. It's not about shooting/killing in the line of duty when called for under the circumstances.


but any killing of a black is sensationalised.

Geez, how wrong can one person be? Did you see the videos of the last several months? Is that what you call sensationalized?


Yes there have been what appear to be unnecessary killings

APPEAR TO BE? Do you have eyes?


and police brutality but there has also been mob brutality

They are not equivalent. The police are officials designated by society to keep the peace. Mob brutality comes from criminals.

but any killing of a black is sensationalised.Clete, I think that's a fair statement. The police are generally deemed guilty before an investigation takes place. The Michael Brown case in Ferguson is a prime example. BLM instigated riots and burned down several businesses, only to find months later that the police officer had behaved properly. The Tawanna Brawley case of years ago is another example.

In the case of George Floyd, it is now known that he had a lethal dose of fentanyl in his blood. Jacob Brooks, who had been previously charged with sexual assault, resisted arrest, wrestled two cops to the ground, and then got up and was reaching into his car for who knew what. I'm not suggesting the cops are innocent of wrong-doing, but I am saying we need to let the investigative process play out.

These cases are sensationalized because they fit a false narrative being pushed by liberals that there is some sort of widespread, malicious campaign by the nation's police forces against black men. There is no compelling evidence at all to back that, so these unfortunate cases are thrown up as some sort of evidence.

In the meantime, the truly serious pathologies which afflict black America are tragically swept under the rug and ignored.

In the meantime, the truly serious pathologies which afflict black America are tragically swept under the rug and ignored.

Yes poverty and injustice is hard to overcome

Out of wedlock births, under-performing schools, and being raised in a culture of family and educational failure are far, far greater problems. Poverty of mind and culture are the real enemies of any group.

That's really a load of crap since you say let's wait for the investigation while blaming the dead guy. Worse is the complete ignorance of the trauma of yet another event caught on camera. This has been happening for decades hidden and covered up, and it's mind blowing to see a cop actually kill a guy. Hard to dismiss it even if it's sensational conspiracy by the black guys. Police brutality is but the tip of the iceberg, and ignoring and dismissing it just makes it more persistent.

If you weren't so focused on what you think people should be doing, you could understand what they want. I mean does it really take a month to investigate 8 minutes of a knee on the neck? Months to investigate a botched drug raid in the wrong house? Years to investigate a choke hold? Months to investigate vigilantes stalking and killing a jogger? How long to figure out 7 shots in the back at close range just ain't right by any stretch of the imagination.

How dare the community take to the streets and say so. Sometimes you white people just piss me off with that crap! Praying for understanding though has only resulted in the reality of talking to a box of rocks and expecting an intelligent answer.

I can only protest the atrocity loudly, peacefully and persistently and vote!

while blaming the dead guy.That's a lie. I attached blame to no one. I simply stated the truth.


Sometimes you white people just piss me off with that crap!Who looks like the racist now? Now I really don't think you are a racist, but that's the kind of race-loaded speech that many blacks despise when it's made about them, and rightfully so. I guess if I was Latino or Asian and made the same statement, it wouldn't "piss" you off? For that matter, what is wrong with the statement? Is it the truth that you find irritating?


I can only protest the atrocity loudly, peacefully and persistently and vote!Great idea. I support it completely.

Just make sure you can explain your position to the officer involved in the Michael Brown shooting. He was judged guilty for weeks before the INVESTIGATION concluded that he had behaved properly. I would suggest you give the cops the same presumption of innocence that you would want to have. Unless, I suppose, they are now some of those white people who piss you off with that crap. And hopefully, while you are protesting, you can find time to protest the 17 million black babies murdered by abortion in the past fifty years, or the thousands of innocent black people murdered by other black people every year. Gonna protest that? Even plan on talking about it? Probably not, since you can't get any political advantage from those stories.

Was the black guy guilty before he was executed murdered? Pretty convenient to have the rules skewed for the cops to have a presumption of innocence and the murdered black guy is well dead, and cannot defend himself.

He had been charged with a crime (sexual assault). He was certainly guilty of resisting arrest. Should he have been shot seven times? If I was the cop, and a man who was out of control and violent was reaching into his car for who knows what, then I would have responded in some way. Shoot seven times? I don't know. I await what I hope will be a fair and impartial hearing to determine that.

Jacob Brown is not dead.

Everyone accused of a crime, in our country, is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Did you not know that?

Should I take your word for anything in your post? Love to but please post a link.

Take my word for it? I wouldn't suggest it. Verify everything, but be willing to accept the truth when you are faced with it. Stop your practice of finding a person guilty, and then examining the evidence.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/08/facts_emerging_on_jacob_blake_shooting_contradict_ the_narrative_that_sparked_riots.html

The link includes this.




The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller's keys/vehicle.
Officers were aware of Mr. Blake's open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.
Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.
The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake's vehicle.
Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The "main" video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.
The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.
The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.
The officers next went "hands-on" with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.
Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers' attempt to gain compliance.
The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.
Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.
The officers once more went "hands-on" with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.
Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.
A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.
Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.
Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers' commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.

So what should the officers have done, confronted with Blake, armed with a deadly weapon and attempting to drive away the vehicle with three young children in it? The fact that he was able shrug off two tasers suggests he may have been on some mind-altering substance like methamphetamine, PCP, or angel dust. The children reasonably could be believed to be at risk in a vehicle fleeing arrest.

Jacob Brown is not dead.
His name is Jacob Blake.

What's going on with police these days???

On Saturday a distraught WHITE mom whose WHITE son was having an Asperger's meltdown called 911, quickly explained the situation, and asked for emergency mental health assistance to calm him. Sooooooo, cops came over, sent her outside to wait, and shot him because he wouldn't lie down on the floor. (https://news.yahoo.com/utah-police-shoot-13-old-153244126.html)

I

The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative. POLICE HAD GUNS DRAWN.
The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint. POLICE HAD GUNS DRAWN.
The officers next went "hands-on" with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control. STUPID MOVE.


Police need tons and tons of proper training on how to deescalate a situation. Flashing their guns isn't the way. Yelling isn't the way. Manhandling isn't the way. They should start this training by learning how to deescalate the situation with a two-year-old having a temper tantrum.

And you were a policeman how many years? That's pure fantasy you are putting forward. You really think you have some special knowledge and experience so as to judge these guys and call them stupid? You try it a couple of weeks and get back with us. And your accounts that you added above about guns drawn is not true. Read the account. Guns were drawn at the end, and not at the beginning.


Sooooooo, cops came over, sent her outside to wait, and shot him because he wouldn't lie down on the floor.As usual, make up your mind before an investigation is even started. Even your own link showed your story to be untrue. What an anit-cop bias you have.

And yeah, I'm overreacting. My apologies. Perhaps it would be good, however, for you to understand that a retired librarian knows about as much about police work as a retired principal does. Perhaps it would be good to wait for the investigation to play out before we make any sweeping and insulting pronouncements.

Remember Ferguson? Remember, "Hands up", and how it all turned out to be a BLM fairy tale? Did we learn anything from that?

Take my word for it? I wouldn't suggest it. Verify everything, but be willing to accept the truth when you are faced with it. Stop your practice of finding a person guilty, and then examining the evidence.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/08/facts_emerging_on_jacob_blake_shooting_contradict_ the_narrative_that_sparked_riots.html

The link includes this.


The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller's keys/vehicle.
Officers were aware of Mr. Blake's open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.
Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.
The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake's vehicle.
Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The "main" video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.
The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.
The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.
The officers next went "hands-on" with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.
Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers' attempt to gain compliance.
The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.
Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.
The officers once more went "hands-on" with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.
Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.
A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.
Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.
Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers' commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.


So what should the officers have done, confronted with Blake, armed with a deadly weapon and attempting to drive away the vehicle with three young children in it? The fact that he was able shrug off two tasers suggests he may have been on some mind-altering substance like methamphetamine, PCP, or angel dust. The children reasonably could be believed to be at risk in a vehicle fleeing arrest.

Well that's just great using a low ranked loony right wing digital rag to verify your account! REALLY DUDE?

As usual, make up your mind before an investigation is even started. Even your own link showed your story to be untrue. What an anit-cop bias you have.
Who didn't read the link??? "When two officers arrived, the mother said she was asked to wait outside while they entered the house. She said that within minutes of police entering her home she heard an order to “get on the ground” and several gunshots."

REALLY DUDE?Did you bother to read it, DUDE??? Did you bother to notice who that information came from, DUDE?? I didn't think so.


Who didn't read the link??? "When two officers arrived, the mother said she was asked to wait outside while they entered the house. She said that within minutes of police entering her home she heard an order to “get on the ground” and several gunshots."Have you always been this deceptive, that you don't bother to post another rather important segment of the story like this and thus attempt to create a false narrative?


Salk Lake City Police Sergeant Keith Horrocks said in a press conference on Saturday (http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=44681X1458326&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F2325976034202 18%2Fvideos%2F785151122260702%2F&sref=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-police-shot-13-year-old-autistic-boy-golda-linden-barton-b419143.html) that police were called to a home in Glendale, Salt Lake City, on Friday to a report of a “violent psyche issue involving a juvenile” who had made threats with a weapon.
Sgt Horrocks said the boy fled on foot away from the address and was shot by an officer during a short foot pursuit. He said he believed the boy was in “serious condition".

And BTW, I didn't say you didn't bother to read the link. I said you have an anti-cop bias as shown by the fact that you are already making judgmental remarks about the cops when the investigation, that you clearly have no interest in, has barely begun.

REMEMBER FERGUSON!!
REMEMBER TAWANNA BRAWLEY!!

Remember Ferguson? Remember, "Hands up", and how it all turned out to be a BLM fairy tale? Did we learn anything from that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest


The Department of Justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Justice) (DOJ) concluded Wilson shot Brown in self-defense.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LATimes.Federal-16)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-FOOTNOTEUSDOJ201580%E2%80%9382-17)
In response to the shooting and subsequent unrest, the DOJ conducted an investigation into the policing practices of the Ferguson Police Department (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Police_Department_(Missouri)) (FPD).[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-WSJ.JusticeDept-18)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-Washington_Post-19) In March 2015, the DOJ announced that they had determined that the FPD had engaged in misconduct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_misconduct) against the citizenry of Ferguson by, among other things, discriminating against African Americans and applying racial stereotypes in a "pattern or practice of unlawful conduct."[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-DOJ.Report-20)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-DOJ.findings-21)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-Washington_Post_Editorial-22) The DOJ also found that Ferguson depended on fines and other charges generated by police.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-23)


I didn't see any reference to BLM, but you can scroll down to Racial context for some good insights into the roots of the problem that is manifest to this day as in these statements:


The Los Angeles Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Times) argues that the situation that exploded in Ferguson "has been building for decades," and that protesters initially came from the town and neighboring towns that have pockets of poverty, the poorest of St. Louis, and lists "the growing challenge of the suburbanization of poverty" as the catalyst.[226] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-LATimes.Economy-226)
Time magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_(magazine)) argued that "Blacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American) in this country are more apt to riot because they are one of the populations here who still need to. In the case of the 1992 riots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots), 30 years of black people trying to talk about their struggles of racial profiling and muted, but still vastly unfair, treatment, came to a boil. Sometimes, enough is simply too much. And after that catalyst event, the landscape of southern California changed, and nationally, police forces took note."[227] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-TM-227)
Another aspect of this situation might stem from a system that burdens the poor and black in Ferguson.[228] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-228) Minor traffic offenses are the starting point, and the costs spiral up rapidly if the offenders do not pay the fines on time or do not appear in court.[229] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-229) The income from court fines represented the second-largest source of revenue for Ferguson in 2013. On October 1, 2014, the city of St. Louis canceled 220,000 arrest warrants and gave a three-month delay to the offenders to get a new court date before the warrants would be reissued.[230] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest#cite_note-MNSBC.Warrants-230)


The simple take is the years of racism and oppression.

You cannot change the fact that the entire false narrative about M. Brown's death was false and that false story was used to incite a riot which caused enormous damage.


Time magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_(magazine)) argued that "Blacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American) in this country are more apt to riot because they are one of the populations here who still need to.One of the dumbest, most stupid comments I have heard in a long time.

As to the laws in Ferguson, the city is heavily majority black. If they don't like the laws, they can change them. So no, I have sympathy for them at all. If you don't like the laws, then make new ones. To say otherwise is simply idiotic.

To say otherwise is simply idiotic.

so if our opinions differ to yours we are idiotic?

No. I’m saying that to suggest that it is ok to complain about laws when you have it in your power to change them would certainly seem to be an idiotic approach.

ordinary people do not have the power to change laws that adversely affect them

Who didn't read the link??? "When two officers arrived, the mother said she was asked to wait outside while they entered the house. She said that within minutes of police entering her home she heard an order to “get on the ground” and several gunshots."

I read them, and the embedded links of the reporting. very disturbing.

Of course they do. You elect city councilmen/women who agree with your positions.

ordinary people do not have the power to change laws that adversely affect them

Not at first but in time it can be done.

only in fantasy land or utopia

Maybe not in Aussie land, but happens all the time over here. Just look at NYC.

Some laws take longer to change after many election cycles and generational shifts, often with very strong opposition to that change, and rather messy bloody confrontation.

Maybe not in Aussie land, but happens all the time over here. Just look at NYC.

We have a much more unified approach than you do, local government cannot just do what it likes and they don't have jurisdiction over law enforcement, schools or health so changing laws requires State, or Commonwealth, much more difficult to gain concensus

Like I said. Maybe not in Aussie land, but happens all the time over here.

Just like hurricanes and forest fires, Clete, happens all the time here.

Tal, your memory is short concerning fires and Australia.

No memory needed as the west coast is burning it's a$$ off big time, and a hurricane just blew through a few days ago that was devastating. Brought us a few days of big thunderstorms, rain to North Texas.

I imagine you needed it. Wifey and I were in Nacogdoches last weekend.

At a really high cost to people and property else where, personally I would rather sweat, but for the grace... which explains how I feel about videos of dead and dying, sick and suffering.

At a really high cost to people and property else where, personally I would rather sweat, but for the grace... which explains how I feel about videos of dead and dying, sick and suffering.

As we now know for sure, Trump cares nothing about other's suffering or babies caged, his view of the world is how it affects him - no one and nothing else matters.

He even admitted COVID was 5 X worse than the flu, while saying the opposite in public.

This will have little effect on his core, but it moves the marker another nudge.

babies cagedYou mean the children placed in the cages Obama started?


As we now know for sure, Trump cares nothing about other's sufferingYou might want to learn something about the dangers of overstating your case.

I doubt there will be many holding their noses to vote for Biden, but they will likely be wearing a mask.

If they are not holding their noses, then they have no idea of who they are voting for.

mail in balloting explained ....
3 trays of mail that included absentee ballots found on side of road in Wisconsin
https://fox11online.com/news/local/mail-found-in-ditch-in-greenville

Military ballot discarded in Pennsylvania
https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdpa/pr/revised-statement-us-attorney-freed-inquiry-reports-potential-issues-mail-ballots?fbclid=IwAR0juxtCp2M4PQEXy2ZcmrxE49iFXIb99 st-GIb2ichrAZXHofdsff4g33s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggJNrDf6S_4&fbclid=IwAR1PO2ZJ18WJsdXcODhpbLPLjErdFYH-KCO1gLmkRMT537b1zC97j-180F4

If they are not holding their noses, then they have no idea of who they are voting for.

Long as they know who they are voting against.


mail in balloting explained ....
3 trays of mail that included absentee ballots found on side of road in Wisconsin
https://fox11online.com/news/local/mail-found-in-ditch-in-greenville

Military ballot discarded in Pennsylvania
https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdpa/pr/revised-statement-us-attorney-freed-inquiry-reports-potential-issues-mail-ballots?fbclid=IwAR0juxtCp2M4PQEXy2ZcmrxE49iFXIb99 st-GIb2ichrAZXHofdsff4g33s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggJNrDf6S_4&fbclid=IwAR1PO2ZJ18WJsdXcODhpbLPLjErdFYH-KCO1gLmkRMT537b1zC97j-180F4

Stick to cartoons. Man I use to love those old gangster movies.

So when the facts work against you, then just go with cartoons? Well...OK.

Facts sure, but they are still small local stories. Like you making a peanut butter sandwich and calling yourself a gourmet cook.

Like you making a peanut butter sandwich and calling yourself a gourmet cook.Ah. I can tell you have never had one of my peanut butter sandwiches. Reserve judgment until you do! They'll make a grown man cry.

I like mine with jam for breakfast, and mayonnaise for lunch.

I'm with you on the jam, but PB and mayo??? Just can't see that.

Mail in voting explained from the same state that gave us Al Franken as a Senator ,who's vote in the Senate was the key vote in getting Obamacare passed . They kept on finding more missing ballots until it put him over the top.

This is an undercover video by Project Veritas recording illegal ballot harvesting for cash on behalf of Rep Ilhan Omar (16 minutes so hang in there )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=ZWK56l2VaLY&feature=emb_logo

This is the guy who did this video?

https://www.businessinsider.com/james-okeefe-project-veritas-sting-fails-2017-11#okeefe-accidentally-records-himself-describing-plans-to-infiltrate-and-embarrass-executives-at-a-foundation-funded-by-george-soros-5

And

https://minnesotareformer.com/2020/09/28/right-wing-group-alleges-minneapolis-primary-tainted-by-illegal-voting-scheme/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Veritas

What the heck are you doing with these loony fringers?

So are you saying the video evidence he presented is not the fact ? Is Tulsi Gabbard also a loony fringer ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19n9L0Fg96A

So are you saying the video evidence he presented is not the fact ?

Project Veritas is a known right-wing loony who makes and doctors videos for right-wing purposes. This is so well known, I'm surprised you aren't aware of it, Tomder.

Project Veritas is a known right-wing loony who makes and doctors videos for right-wing purposes. This is so well known, I'm surprised you aren't aware of it, Tomder.Documentation??

YEP you got it and so far the law enforcers of Minnesota agree. My links explained that. TG has it right, if you think it's a problem change the laws.

I've know of this loony fringer for decades, and its a simple easy Google search if you don't trust my link.

Do you even bother to read the links you post? Even a little? What documentation in those three links do you see?

I'll ask again So are you saying the video evidence he presented is not the fact ?
In Minnesota a third party can return only three ballot papers . The video showed one operative with 300 ballots .Omar Jamal,of the Somali Justice Advocacy who works in a sheriff's office in St. Paul ,told Veritas that he believes ballot harvesters in the community are hired and take advantage of elderly community members. Was he lying ?

I'll ask again So are you saying the video evidence he presented is not the fact ?
In Minnesota a third party can return only three ballot papers . The video showed one operative with 300 ballots .Omar Jamal,of the Somali Justice Advocacy who works in a sheriff's office in St. Paul ,told Veritas that he believes ballot harvesters in the community are hired and take advantage of elderly community members. Was he lying ?

The number was expanded and changed back and belief of a winger isn't evidence and maybe we wait for a proper investigation. He made this video a few months ago. Maybe you should see his other videos before you elevate this dude to investigator status, or see where he gets his money from.

At least look up his witnesses. I doubt you even know who the Somali Justice Advocacy is.

I've seen his videos . He has taken down Repubs too so you are wrong in the claim that he is a Repub operative . I especially enjoyed when he infiltrated PP and got them to admit they harvest baby parts .

belief of a winger isn't evidenceSometimes I think I'm just having a bad dream. Evidence? The guy is on videotape saying these things!! How much more do you want? You were ready to reject Kavanaugh on NO evidence. Here you have a guy ADMITTING wrong doing. It just gets weirder as this goes along.

And again.
What documentation in those three links do you see?

Yeah, boy. That mail in voting thingie is going just great. After all, it is benefiting liberal dems! One thing I am absolutely certain of. If these were Trump supporters pulling this garbage, then your head would be exploding, but since it is helping liberal dems, then all is good.

I've seen his videos . He has taken down Repubs too so you are wrong in the claim that he is a Repub operative . I especially enjoyed when he infiltrated PP and got them to admit they harvest baby parts .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe


Sometimes I think I'm just having a bad dream. Evidence? The guy is on videotape saying these things!! How much more do you want? You were ready to reject Kavanaugh on NO evidence. Here you have a guy ADMITTING wrong doing. It just gets weirder as this goes along.

And again.

Yeah, boy. That mail in voting thingie is going just great. After all, it is benefiting liberal dems! One thing I am absolutely certain of. If these were Trump supporters pulling this garbage, then your head would be exploding, but since it is helping liberal dems, then all is good.

I should have figured you would trust a guy with a history of deception. He is backed by dufus donors and dufus supporters.