Remember Trump's famous pledge to have Mexico pay for the border wall? Today, the orange-headed moron threatened to shut down the government unless the American taxpayer paid for the wall.

A bad week for Trump - he has added felony charges to his lies. The time is not far off when he will be meeting Bubba in a lock-up somewhere.

The wall was a bridge too far

Mexico is still laughing at the big dufus liar, and if repubs haven't built his wall, then the dems sure ain't. I think he is just changing the subject given the law is on his fat orange butt.

No, it is a key piece of his platform and ego dictates he gets what he wants so the stand off, the tantrum, give me what I want

So why hasn't he been negotiating with Mexico about this wall he promised and says is so important?

The Mexicans have told him they will not pay for it. The problem is an American problem, not a Mexican problem, besides it is being built in the wrong place, it should be built on the Mexican southern border

The Mexicans have told him they will not pay for it. The problem is an American problem, not a Mexican problem, besides it is being built in the wrong place, it should be built on the Mexican southern border

Maybe Mexico can make the dufus pay for it! He might go for it if they name it after him.

https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/168/16843/1684343.gif

Big beautiful wall

We used to talk about tarriff barriers as walls, maybe Trump could trade his tarriff barriers for a frontier wall

Oh Clete, if Mexico said NO! What makes you think China, Canada, France, Russia, or Iran will agree to the Dufus's nonsense? Even the Saudi's aren't that crazy! Everybody but the loonies think the wall is a DUMB idea and a waste of money.

No, the leftists think it is waste of money because they want more immigrants. I don't get it, what is the point of having poor immigrants. We encourage immigration by people with money and skills.

Whether others agree or not isn't the point, a sovereign nation can do what it wants but it only limits itself when you fight with others. Trump's tariffs are a waste of money, and not the money of those countries, but American money belonging to the American people, now I don't care, you can shoot yourselves in the foot if you want too, but a wall is infrastructure. Right now you border guards and troops on the border because the poor people are trying to get in. I hear in some places there is not even a visual barrier but if you didn't feed them and house them when they get there, there would be less incentive to come

Hello All

Tax payers need to pay for a filter on that idiot mouth and twitter account.

Hey I'll even start by donating $50 to start the fund.

I mean he must be an idiot not to know we were all immigrants from some country 100's of years ago.

FYI = My family mostly from England and that area though moved to New Zealand 80-120 years ago.

If Mexico does pay for it they should call it " Pared idiota " or " El muro de los idiotas "

Those who want a wall should do a GoFundMe drive . As far as the so called shutdown ;well if Trump was like the emperor he will inconvenience tourist unnecessarily by shutting down monuments that people want to see . The truth is that more than 85 % of the government is self funded in the budget and very little of it is discretionary spending that would negatively affect the people. I for one encourage lawmakers to take as long as they want . When they are not in DC they aren't doing mischief or costing us.

Well is there a shut down or not

I don't get it, what is the point of having poor immigrants.


The poorest immigrants are the best. The Irish, among the most destitute, produced generations of the best citizens in every field up to the President of the United States. The Italians, Germans, Hispanics, Greeks, etc have accomplished similarly. Keep sending us those "wretched masses, yearning to breathe free".

The truth is that more than 85 % of the government is self funded in the budget and very little of it is discretionary spending that would negatively affect the people. I for one encourage lawmakers to take as long as they want . When they are not in DC they aren't doing mischief or costing us.


Assuming your facts are accurate and well-sourced, you've made some excellent points.

The poorest immigrants are the best. The Irish, among the most destitute, produced generations of the best citizens in every field up to the President of the United States. The Italians, Germans, Hispanics, Greeks, etc have accomplished similarly. Keep sending us those "wretched masses, yearning to breathe free".

Yes they have an incentive to succeed, given they have opportunity, but it they are just coming to fulfil the role that others won't step up too, are you helping them or just enslaving them

Yes they have an incentive to succeed, given they have opportunity, but it they are just coming to fulfil the role that others won't step up too, are you helping them or just enslaving them


Helping them!

The newly-arrived poor immigrants take the jobs nobody else wants which help them support a family, which could not be done in the old country. Their children do a little better, and their children still better........ That's how it works. It's an old story. Probably most of the people posting here know that story well.

Most of the immigrants come here poor and work their way up, no matter where they came from or why. It's always been that way. Even the dufus did the same thing the Mexicans are doing except they have been doing it before the euros found the place. That's what's made America unique in the world Clete, a history of poor immigrants working hard to build a great nation. For all the chaos it still is the winning formula.

The President has now made an offer that includes some things Democrats have wanted in exchange for funding a wall or barrier on some parts of the border. Democrats ;the open border party say it’s a non-starter. Ok. What’s their counteroffer? Or will they simply not make one proving my point that they want open borders and nothing else ?

The President has now made an offer that includes some things Democrats have wanted in exchange for funding a wall or barrier on some parts of the border. Democrats ;the open border party say it’s a non-starter. Ok. What’s their counteroffer? Or will they simply not make one proving my point that they want open borders and nothing else ?

The choices they have been given were things taken away by Trump. Now he's dangling them in front of their faces, a big tease? And no, Democrats don't want open borders!

Democrats don't want open borders!


No, they will leave them open so long as it serves their purpose. It has been months since Trump moved on DACA and there has been nothing to solve that problem. The demonrats aren't interested anymore, no political capital in it for the moment, and they don't want a Trump solution

What you have now is the big shutdown, or the really, really big shutup.

Someone doesn't want Trump to get kudos from the wall, good idea or bad idea, politically noone is going to salute it. This is the not made here syndrome.

The President has now made an offer that includes some things Democrats have wanted in exchange for funding a wall or barrier on some parts of the border. Democrats ;the open border party say it’s a non-starter. Ok. What’s their counteroffer? Or will they simply not make one proving my point that they want open borders and nothing else ?


He is offering to undo the stuff he has done for a border wall. This is the guy who walked away from a grand deal last year. And walked away from a BI_PARTISAN deal to avoid a shutdown in the first place, after the right wing loonies blasted him for being soft.

The dems proposals are very simple Tom, open government and secure the borders, and keep talking. Pelosi and the dems were elected just like the dufus was, so no need to spread the political charged open borders lie, on top of the dufus grand lie that a wall solves the problem of gangs and drugs, when the drugs come through the points of entry with legit commerce.

This is a repub senate that filibustered keeping sanctions on the Vlad money machine. This is a senate that refuses to open government until the dufus is happy. Forget the open borders slander, the real question is who runs the senate, MITCH or DUFUS? Never mind, it's obvious The dufus runs the senate in his own feckless style.

That's not how it's laid out in the constitution, only in the minds of loony dufus sycophants in the repub house and senate. America cleaned out the house, guess what's NEXT? Oh just to mention the right wing loonies still ain't happy with the dufus idea. No wall, no government is their position.

That's not how it's laid out in the constitution either.

tal that is not a proposal .Guess we wait until the heat gets to the Dems. Many of them represent districts that voted for Trump specifically because of his position on border sercurity . McConnell brokered Trumps latest proposal along with Pence and Kushner. The Senate is ready to vote on a bill the President will sign. The onerous and the shutdown now resides in the open border Dems' court .

tal that is not a proposal .Guess we wait until the heat gets to the Dems. Many of them represent districts that voted for Trump specifically because of his position on border sercurity . McConnell brokered Trumps latest proposal along with Pence and Kushner. The Senate is ready to vote on a bill the President will sign. The onerous and the shutdown now resides in the open border Dems' court .

I bet they are if you call that a proposal.

The dems need to respond to Trump's offer. You give a little, I give a little. It's called negotiating. I think the dems are grandstanding for political purposes and will continue to do so as long as they see it as a winning hand. Could very well be true for Trump as well.

Gratifying that you acknowledge the possibility that both sides are playing to their bases. I agree that dems should respond to the offer on the table, but I would have a huge problem with making the lives of real people, specifically DACA, and government workers a leverage point. His offer also reflects previous deals he has REJECTED more than once. Essentially permanent wall funding for temporary DACA relief (3 years) seems a non starter, even though Slick Mitch is reportedly to add "sweeteners" to the proposal. I heard he plans to vote on the house proposals they have passed, and essentially the same ones the senate has passed by voice vote last December.

I guess we will see in the coming days. Not to change the subject but today is Martin Luther King Day and I would be remiss not to acknowledge the birthday of such a great American civil rights activist.

https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/cache/lw600/169/16933/1693390.jpg

The dems need to respond to Trump's offer. You give a little, I give a little. It's called negotiating. I think the dems are grandstanding for political purposes and will continue to do so as long as they see it as a winning hand. Could very well be true for Trump as well.

This isn't a negotiation, it is a demand. As I recall the Demonrats attempted to give Trump half the money before the shutdown and he refused so there is no give in Trump. He isn't prepared to take one dollar less because the lives of those affected by the shutdown don't matter to him. He doesn't see them as voters or at least not his voters. Trump is grandstanding and the Demonrats know they have the House and therefore the veto on funding Anything Trump offers requires funding so he isn't giving anything

He hasn't moved on funding for the wall, but he has moved on the DACA situation. The dems have not offered half the money. Their stand is they will not give more than one dollar. The only proposal I recall from the dems is a vague offer to increase spending for the border, but not for a wall. Both sides are grandstanding. It is the nature of politics.

Release the hostages!!! There are enough dem, and repub bills to do that and open the government and stop good people from suffering. Dump the dufus and his feckless sycophants!

Fund the wall and it shall happen.

Fund the wall and it shall happen.
"And if you continue to refuse to fund the wall, you'll be really, really sorry, sorrier than you are now!"

"And if you continue to refuse to fund the wall, you'll be really, really sorry, sorrier than you are now!"

You have that in quotes, but I can't find anywhere Trump said that. Are you saying that he did?

In your view, what would a reasonable compromise be in this situation, Wondergirl?

You have that in quotes, but I can't find anywhere Trump said that. Are you saying that he did?

In your view, what would a reasonable compromise be in this situation, Wondergirl?


Compromise? The only compromise is to keep the invaders out and not use military force to do so.

In your view, what would a reasonable compromise be in this situation, Wondergirl?
Increased numbers of well-trained immigration agents plus clean, well-run housing and empathetic support services for the refugees and immigrants who have passed through the initial phases of the visa process.


You have that in quotes, but I can't find anywhere Trump said that. Are you saying that he did?
You haven't been listening. What he did say was pretty much that.

He did say, "Walls work, whether we like it or not. They work better than anything.” He apparently hasn't studied what happened with Hadrian's Wall or the Great Wall of China or the Berlin Wall or the Walls of Troy or the Walls of Babylon.

Increased numbers of well-trained immigration agents plus clean, well-run housing and empathetic support services for the refugees and immigrants who have passed through the initial phases of the visa process.

OK. That's not a compromise, it's dictating terms. I would think the dems could offer 3 bil for the wall rather than 5, and ask for concessions for DACA and TPS.

Why is it that libs are always asking for "clean, well-run housing...support", paid for with someone else's money, or even worse with borrowed money?

OK. That's not a compromise, it's dictating terms. I would think the dems could offer 3 bil for the wall rather than 5, and ask for concessions for DACA and TPS.
I'm negotiating. That's my card on the table to counter tRump's.


Why is it that libs are always asking for "clean, well-run housing...support", paid for with someone else's money, or even worse with borrowed money?
Why is tRump going to use our money, especially MY tax money that I've/we've paid, so he can fund a wall I/we don't want? Let him use his own money.

I'm negotiating. That's my card on the table to counter tRump's.

Fair enough, but what would you propose as a genuine compromise?


Why is tRump going to use our money, especially MY tax money that I've/we've paid, so he can fund a wall I/we don't want? Let him use his own money.

Good reply. I think the difference is in giving money to individuals versus spending money on a project that will benefit us all.

Fair enough, but what would you propose as a genuine compromise?
We're not at the compromise stage yet. Trump stated his goal. I stated mine. Does he want to discuss, or will he storm out of the room, saying "Bye, bye!"


Good reply. I think the difference is in giving money to individuals versus spending money on a project that will benefit us all.
How will a wall benefit me? I have no problem with refugees and immigrants eventually becoming citizens, probably willing to do all those low-paying jobs (custodial work, harvesting crops, reroofing buildings, working in construction and rebuilding infrastructure, becoming CNAs) that our privileged white adult children and grandchildren won't do.

We're not at the compromise stage yet. Trump stated his goal. I stated mine. Does he want to discuss, or will he storm out of the room, saying "Bye, bye!"

You're dithering.


How will a wall benefit me?

Illegals consume billions upon billions of dollars in tax money every year. That's how it should concern you.


privileged white adult children


Funny how liberals can never stray far away from race.

You're dithering.[/QOUTE]

The dufus dithers helped along by Slick Mitch who instead of doing his job, defers to the dufus. That's how and why the government workers are in soup lines and can't pay their bills and must work nonetheless. Abject slavery. That's IMMORAL and illegal according to the 13th amendment which forbids involuntary servitude.

[QUOTE]Illegals consume billions upon billions of dollars in tax money every year. That's how it should concern you.

Site your source and I will site mine as to the billions they contribute to the US treasury. Of course we can ignore that fact as the right ignores any fact that shows they are wrong,


Funny how liberals can never stray far away from race.

How can we since repubs use race in institutional ways to target oppressive, suppressive, policy at minorities women and children. Just look at the make up of the conservative repub base, and look at the liberal dem base and you might see what I am talking about. You already know but are in deep denial that we hate racist policies, and conservatives NEED racists.

You're dithering.
Has tRump stated his compromise position? (Psssst, he doesn't have one.)


Illegals consume billions upon billions of dollars in tax money every year. That's how it should concern you.
No, they don't. Do some research. They do all those dirty jobs whites refuse to do. Visit nursing homes and see who's washing the floors and residents' butts and befouled bedding. Talk with roofing and construction contractors who hire illegals on the cheap to do the scut (meaning menial) labor. Ask tRump whom he hired to do the crappy jobs when he built his towers and also ask him how many illegals work at Mar-a-Lago. And those illegals who don't have SS#s do pay taxes on goods and services.


Funny how liberals can never stray far away from race.
The r in Republican is for "racist."

What was very upsetting was that, because of the dictated federal "furlough," tRump had no kitchen staff to prepare dinner for the Clemson Tigers, but was reduced to feeding them stone-cold burgers and fries. *shudder*

Has tRump stated his compromise position? (Psssst, he doesn't have one.)

Psssst. Yes, he does have one and he has stated it. He was on television just last Saturday doing so. Gosh you dems must sleep a lot. Now you might not like his proposal, but neither you nor the dems have the gumption to come up with an alternative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tnCWsuR6u0


The r in Republican is for "racist."


Just another example of the unthinking, careless, and vindictive use of the term "racist" which is why it is rapidly becoming a word with no real meaning. It is about on the level of me trying to say the d in democrat stands for "dumb". Of course considering Warren, Ocasio-Cortez, and Sanders, there might at least be a little validity in the statement, but it would still end up being as outrageous as yours.


They do all those dirty jobs whites refuse to do. Why is it that you don't have the courage to add, "or that blacks refuse to do". Is that some self loathing at work, or some subtle racism? Why do you only zero in on whites? BTW, I know MANY white, black, and otherwise who do janitorial work, yard care, construction work, painting, and any number of low paying jobs. Having to compete with illegals drives down wages in those jobs. Where do you get your data?

The truth about illegals and taxes. https://www.justfactsdaily.com/illegal-immigrants-and-federal-income-taxes/

Psssst. Yes, he does have one and he has stated it. He was on television just last Saturday doing so. Gosh you dems must sleep a lot. Now you might not like his proposal, but neither you nor the dems have the gumption to come up with an alternative.
Offering to give back a crumb of what he took away is compromise????


Just another example of the unthinking, careless, and vindictive use of the term "racist" which is why it is rapidly becoming a word with no real meaning. It is about on the level of me trying to say the d in democrat stands for "dumb". Of course considering Warren, Ocasio-Cortez, and Sanders, there might at least be a little validity in the statement.
I'm a Republican and have been listening to fellow Republicans for over 50 years. I LIVE with one, am related to Republicans biologically and thru marriage. I know what I'm talking about when I say they are suspicious of and don't like anyone who isn't white.

Offering to give back a crumb of what he took away is compromise????

Far ahead of any proposal I have heard from you or the dems, which is nothing. That's why I asked you earlier what you would accept. You dithered. (Yes, I like that word.)

If you are a repub, then by your own statement you are a racist. Don't you find that strange?

As to the people you know, I live in Mississippi, and I don't know those people. I do know some black individuals who don't like whites, but not so much the other way around, and it is not epidemic in either group.

Psssst. Yes, he does have one and he has stated it. He was on television just last Saturday doing so. Gosh you dems must sleep a lot. Now you might not like his proposal, but neither you nor the dems have the gumption to come up with an alternative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tnCWsuR6u0



Pelosi and the dems have already hit the ground running sine January 3rd to open up the government, and relieve the suffering of works that the feckless repubs have allowed the dufus to do. Slick Mitch McConnel is the one who needs to show gumption and do his job.


Just another example of the unthinking, careless, and vindictive use of the term "racist" which is why it is rapidly becoming a word with no real meaning. It is about on the level of me trying to say the d in democrat stands for "dumb". Of course considering Warren, Ocasio-Cortez, and Sanders, there might at least be a little validity in the statement.


See my posts above.


Why is it that you don't have the courage to add, "or that blacks refuse to do". Is that some self loathing at work, or some subtle racism? Why do you only zero in on whites? BTW, I know MANY white, black, and otherwise who do janitorial work, yard care, construction work, painting, and any number of low paying jobs. Where do you get your data?

The truth about illegals and taxes. https://www.justfactsdaily.com/illegal-immigrants-and-federal-income-taxes/

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

Pelosi and the dems have already hit the ground running sine January 3rd to open up the government, and relieve the suffering of works that the feckless repubs have allowed the dufus to do. Slick Mitch McConnel is the one who needs to show gumption and do his job.

OK. What compromise have they proposed? What are the specifics?


How can we since repubs use race in institutional ways to target oppressive, suppressive, policy at minorities women and children. Just look at the make up of the conservative repub base, and look at the liberal dem base and you might see what I am talking about. You already know but are in deep denial that we hate racist policies, and conservatives NEED racists.

1. Be specific. What institutional ways are used to target minorities, women, and children? Are you referring to affirmative action, or AFDC, or the many welfare programs that positively target children, or free public education? Be specific.
2. What do you mean when you say, "Look at the makeup of the conservative repub base"? Are you suggesting that white people are inherently racist? And if you are, then please explain how you are not engaging in the racism you say you detest. If that is not what you meant, then what did you mean?

Pelosi and the dems have already hit the ground running sine January 3rd to open up the government, and relieve the suffering of works that the feckless repubs have allowed the dufus to do. Slick Mitch McConnel is the one who needs to show gumption and do his job.

OK. What compromise have they proposed? What are the specifics?

The bills the repubs passed in DEC by voice vote. Bipartisan supported I might add.
How can we since repubs use race in institutional ways to target oppressive, suppressive, policy at minorities women and children. Just look at the make up of the conservative repub base, and look at the liberal dem base and you might see what I am talking about. You already know but are in deep denial that we hate racist policies, and conservatives NEED racists.

1. Be specific. What institutional ways are used to target minorities, women, and children? Are you referring to affirmative action, or AFDC, or the many welfare programs that positively target children, or free public education? Be specific.

Voter suppression laws that require ID' and then close or drastically reduce DMV hours of operations in minority communities, often a lot bigger in population than surronding, white communities. An old tactic. Anothe example is the dakota law that requires and address with a street ID that reservation Indians NEVER had since their village had no "streets" with official names any way but effectively CANCELED their democratic votes. Repub party leaders have long admitted publically there tactics were meant to shave democratic votes, predominately minorities that are targeted.

2. What do you mean when you say, "Look at the makeup of the conservative repub base"? Are you suggesting that white people are inherently racist? And if you are, then please explain how you are not engaging in the racism you say you detest. If that is not what you meant, then what did you mean?

No not at all just, predominately WHITE. and MEN. That does include some publically avowed racists, but I would not broadbrush the entire party as racists. You need those numbers to get a vote total to keep repubs relevant as a national political party, Let's face it the dufus is the leader of your party now and he is a racist in words, actions, behavior, and HISTORY.

I would imagine that you feel as strongly disgusted about Hillary, and that's fair enough I suppose, but the difference is Hillary is history, and the dufus is the current racist in power NOW, so he is the target of the liberals, and even some of his own repubs, and conservatives as well.

That's because he is disgusting and may well prove to be a criminal, in which case his presidency will be illegitimate.

1. That's it?? Some states have voter ID. You have to have ID to do a lot of things. In Mississippi, there are a number of sources of voter ID cards, not just the DMV. That just won't fly. And the one example in the Dakotas. That's it? That's your proof of systematic racism? That's about the same as saying it does not exist at all.

2. Then why did you feel compelled to use "the makeup of the conservative repub base" as proof of racism in the republican party?

Far ahead of any proposal I have heard from you or the dems, which is nothing. That's why I asked you earlier what you would accept. You dithered. (Yes, I like that word.)
I've posted it here more than once: use the money to assign more well-trained immigration agents and, of course, use technology to keep the border secure.


If you are a repub, then by your own statement you are a racist. Don't you find that strange?
I've never bothered to change my party registration. This way I can vote on a Republican primary ballot and choose candidates who are worthy (not racist), then vote for candidates of either party during the general election.


As to the people you know, I live in Mississippi, and I don't know those people. I do know some black individuals who don't like whites, but not so much the other way around, and it is not epidemic in either group.
I was born in NC in the mid '40s and lived there for my first ten years. Thankfully, my minister father (from the Chicago suburbs) and mother (from south-central Idaho) had never learned to be racists, so I and my siblings were never taught to be racists either.

1. That's it?? Some states have voter ID. You have to have ID to do a lot of things. In Mississippi, there are a number of sources of voter ID cards, not just the DMV. That just won't fly. And the one example in the Dakotas. That's it? That's your proof of systematic racism? That's about the same as saying it does not exist at all.

No it's not and you know I could have written a lot more but Geez, it's a matter of history. Okay since you asked so NICELY!

https://www.thoughtco.com/examples-of-institutional-racism-in-the-u-s-2834624

https://www.bustle.com/p/this-is-proof-that-institutional-racism-is-still-very-much-a-problem-43610

https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/05/06/institutional-racism-is-our-way-of-life

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/institutional-racism-is-alive-and-well-in-us-says-rep-lee/

https://diverseeducation.com/article/64583/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Feagin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow

Let me know when you get through these as my archives on the subject is quite extensive and I hope informative and enlightening.


2. Then why did you feel compelled to use "the makeup of the conservative repub base" as proof of racism in the republican party?

I will let you consider that for yourself. It didn't take a lot of compelling to state the obvious.

The first article is a joke including slavery (been gone for 150 years) and problems in World War 2. The second one seems to make sense until you consider how much it might apply to a law-abiding black man and that would be none.

The problem I have with these discussions of institutional racism is that it deflects the conversation away from where it needs to be. What is the greatest problem in the black community? Very simple. The out of wedlock birth rate is over 70% which, just by itself, is devastating. A young black man is seven times more likely to commit murder than a young white man, and many times more likely to be the victim of a homicide (almost always at the hands of another young black man). The educational status of black children lags far behind the rest of the population, and that is especially true for males. Many black children are trapped in low-performing schools. The incarceration rate for black men is abysmally high because the crime rates are abysmally high. There is no law to fix these things. They are many times more the enemy of the black population than is institutional racism, yet they do not get talked about. Why? Because it would require major changes in the behavior of black people, and it is always much easier to talk about someone else changing than to talk about me (for instance) changing. Who is leading the charge against out of wedlock births and in favor of stable families? Who is? On the national stage, the answer is no one. What a tragedy.

Is there institutional racism? No doubt there is still some, but compared to the problems listed above they are not worth talking about. You want to see any population group make progress? Honor the family, honor education, and commit to working hard. It is practically a miracle to see the results that can bring.

I've posted it here more than once: use the money to assign more well-trained immigration agents and, of course, use technology to keep the border secure.

And as I replied then, that is not a compromise, it is simply a position. "Take it or leave it," is not a compromise. What Trump proposed is at least the beginning of a compromise.


I've never bothered to change my party registration. This way I can vote on a Republican primary ballot and choose candidates who are worthy (not racist), then vote for candidates of either party during the general election.

You are a repub. You said repubs are racists. Again, wouldn't that make you a racist? And if not, then your statement would be invalid. We both know it is anyway. It is just another inaccurate use of the term that is rendering it nearly meaningless.

The first article is a joke including slavery (been gone for 150 years) and problems in World War 2. The second one seems to make sense until you consider how much it might apply to a law-abiding black man and that would be none.

The problem I have with these discussions of institutional racism is that it deflects the conversation away from where it needs to be. What is the greatest problem in the black community? Very simple. The out of wedlock birth rate is over 70% which, just by itself, is devastating. A young black man is seven times more likely to commit murder than a young white man, and many times more likely to be the victim of a homicide (almost always at the hands of another young black man). The educational status of black children lags far behind the rest of the population, and that is especially true for males. Many black children are trapped in low-performing schools. The incarceration rate for black men is abysmally high because the crime rates are abysmally high. There is no law to fix these things. They are many times more the enemy of the black population than is institutional racism, yet they do not get talked about. Why? Because it would require major changes in the behavior of black people, and it is always much easier to talk about someone else changing than to talk about me (for instance) changing. Who is leading the charge against out of wedlock births and in favor of stable families? Who is? On the national stage, the answer is no one. What a tragedy.
So what are we (white people) doing to help improve the situation?

So what are we (white people) doing to help improve the situation?

I guess that's how we are different. I don't see the world by color. I don't get up in the morning and think, "What should I do to help xxxx class of people?" I try to be fair to people and generous when it is needed. What color they are doesn't matter. What color I am doesn't matter. I certainly don't always get it right, but I try not to pay attention to color. Pretty much have to in this thread since it is, for now, about institutional racism, but generally I just don't concern myself with it.

I guess that's how we are different. I don't see the world by color. I don't get up in the morning and think, "What should I do to help xxxx class of people?" I try to be fair to people and generous when it is needed. What color they are doesn't matter. What color I am doesn't matter. I certainly don't always get it right, but I try not to pay attention to color. Pretty much have to in this thread since it is, for now, about institutional racism, but generally I just don't concern myself with it.
Your entire screed was on what's wrong with the black community. I just jumped off that.

I agree, we're all in this together. How can I help my neighbor? (Hmmmm, I think I read that question in some book....)

Your entire screed was on what's wrong with the black community. I just jumped off that.

Fair point. As I said, I was responding to institutional racism. Of course many of the problems I cited afflict the country as a whole and not just the black community, but that is where the conversation was.

The first article is a joke including slavery (been gone for 150 years) and problems in World War 2. The second one seems to make sense until you consider how much it might apply to a law-abiding black man and that would be none.

The problem I have with these discussions of institutional racism is that it deflects the conversation away from where it needs to be. What is the greatest problem in the black community? Very simple. The out of wedlock birth rate is over 70% which, just by itself, is devastating. A young black man is seven times more likely to commit murder than a young white man, and many times more likely to be the victim of a homicide (almost always at the hands of another young black man). The educational status of black children lags far behind the rest of the population, and that is especially true for males. Many black children are trapped in low-performing schools. The incarceration rate for black men is abysmally high because the crime rates are abysmally high. There is no law to fix these things. They are many times more the enemy of the black population than is institutional racism, yet they do not get talked about. Why? Because it would require major changes in the behavior of black people, and it is always much easier to talk about someone else changing than to talk about me (for instance) changing. Who is leading the charge against out of wedlock births and in favor of stable families? Who is? On the national stage, the answer is no one. What a tragedy.

Is there institutional racism? No doubt there is still some, but compared to the problems listed above they are not worth talking about. You want to see any population group make progress? Honor the family, honor education, and commit to working hard. It is practically a miracle to see the results that can bring.

At the risk of being called racist, you have noted the high crime rate, etc, among the black population, but such statistics are not confined to the american black population, they are observed among black populations of various ethnicity in various places where they are a minority population. So, two observations; perhaps the eminent researcher who concluded that black persons are not as smart might be right, it might be genetic. Two; the victim mentality and the poverty trap. These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses

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Follow your leader!

These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses.

I don't see it as racial, but it is likely true that when people are allowed, or even encouraged, to see themselves as victims, then their problems automatically become the fault of others. That's why I hate seeing this emphasis on institutional racism. It makes a big deal out of a small deal.

At the risk of being called racist, you have noted the high crime rate, etc, among the black population, but such statistics are not confined to the american black population, they are observed among black populations of various ethnicity in various places where they are a minority population. So, two observations; perhaps the eminent researcher who concluded that black persons are not as smart might be right, it might be genetic. Two; the victim mentality and the poverty trap. These people see themselves as victims and dispossessed, therefore their problems are always the fault of someoneelse not themselves, not their lifestyle, and not their responses

Your no racist, just a bit prejudiced and misinformed but I would like to know more about these black populations of various ethnicity in greater detail. Also I am curious about your observation #2. Who sets the poverty trap?


I don't see it as racial, but it is likely true that when people are allowed, or even encouraged, to see themselves as victims, then their problems automatically become the fault of others. That's why I hate seeing this emphasis on institutional racism. It makes a big deal out of a small deal.

I would feel very insulted if I didn't know you are clueless about the black experience in this country, but your solutions are just as old.bible thumper. I say that with affection and without judgement... or malice.

My remarks did not mention the black population. You are the one who assumed that. In fact, I said I didn't see it as a racial item.

As to being a "Bible thumper", I wear that badge with honor.

If honoring family, honoring education, and honoring hard work are too old for your tastes, then I would suggest you start thumping the Bible a little yourself. It would solve 90% of the problems of those who do not honor those qualities, especially if "honoring God" was put at the head of the line.

Said with great affection and no malice. Sincerely.

#2. Who sets the poverty trap?

.

Socialist society. By insisting upon welfare what we get is a situation where jumping over that divide between a welfare recipient and an income earner is very difficult becauce the difference between welfare and low end wage may be nonexistent. This is why the minimum wage should be a living wage, not a youth wage

This is why the minimum wage should be a living wage, not a youth wage

That's an interesting proposition. I could be talked into considering it, but I have two, huge hesitations. If we go to let's say fifteen dollars an hour, then we will lose a lot of jobs and we'll accelerate the move towards AI taking the place of humans. That is already being done in a number of places and greatly increasing the cost of labor will not help. So people will end up with zero dollars an hour, not fifteen.

I'm also concerned with teens who want part time or entry level work. At fifteen bucks an hour, most of them won't get it.

Perhaps a better approach is to begin to teach people how to make themselves valuable as an employee and therefore worth a higher wage.

Besides brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up to the boss, do you have any examples of being more valuable to your boss?

Besides brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up to the boss, do you have any examples of being more valuable to your boss?

Sometimes you write things that just amaze me and that is one of them. You've never heard of learning more skills, becoming great at what you do, getting to work consistently on time, staying late if needed, not being a whiner, getting along with your fellow employees, working hard without complaining every five seconds, and producing outstanding work results?? What on earth has happened to our country when "becoming a valuable employee" is interpreted as "brown nosing, back stabbing, and kissing up". I never cease to be amazed at how differently we see the world, and how glad I am I don't see it the way you so often seem to do.

That's an interesting proposition. I could be talked into considering it, but I have two, huge hesitations. If we go to let's say fifteen dollars an hour, then we will lose a lot of jobs and we'll accelerate the move towards AI taking the place of humans. That is already being done in a number of places and greatly increasing the cost of labor will not help. So people will end up with zero dollars an hour, not fifteen.

I'm also concerned with teens who want part time or entry level work. At fifteen bucks an hour, most of them won't get it.

Perhaps a better approach is to begin to teach people how to make themselves valuable as an employee and therefore worth a higher wage.

It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage

It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage
Don't ever work in a public library.

It is all in the point of view, 15 bucks an hour is a miserly sum if paid to an adult, a slave wage

Not if you're the one whose job goes away.

Not if you're the one whose job goes away.

It's a fallacy, jobs abolished by not paying fair wages are literally not worth having. You might think it is better than welfare, but if it is not a living wage forcing someone to work two jobs, if they can get it, all it is doing is making small business owners rich at the employees expense. Better to pay them more and have less inefficient workers. It is called productivity..

You do know there is a reason unions were formed and it is because employers would not pay fair wages. I do not subscribe to the idea a manager or owner is work hundreds of times the lowest workers wage. What I say is pay the drones at the top less so income is fairly distributed, reward talent and loyalty. Capitalist ideas are what starts revolutions when the people are oppressed rather than fairness enforced

I'm going to take a wild guess you don't own your own business. Try opening a fast food outfit and paying 15 dollars an hour. You won't last long. Sad but true. And when you or anyone else gets to decide what management gets paid, then freedom has gone. Better solution is to teach people how to move up the wage scale. Talent gets rewarded already, and loyalty does as well.

I'm going to take a wild guess you don't own your own business. Try opening a fast food outfit and paying 15 dollars an hour. You won't last long. Sad but true. And when you or anyone else gets to decide what management gets paid, then freedom has gone. Better solution is to teach people how to move up the wage scale. Talent gets rewarded already, and loyalty does as well.

I'm going to guess you are a theorist. I have owned my own business and managed staff and businesses having responsibility for large businesses. I know that if we treated our employees as minimum wage slaves we couldn't expect their loyalty. Some people can't "move" up the wage scale, not everyone has equal ability. Your capitalist utopia doesn't work for anyone but the elite

I'm going to guess you are a theorist. I have owned my own business and managed staff and businesses having responsibility for large businesses. I know that if we treated our employees as minimum wage slaves we couldn't expect their loyalty. Some people can't "move" up the wage scale, not everyone has equal ability. Your capitalist utopia doesn't work for anyone but the elite.

And you did all of this because of government mandates, or because it was a sound business decision? No, I am not a theorist. I was a school principal for more than twenty years, so I have experience in managing personnel. Even more so, I had a lot of contact with people who worked minimum wage jobs. You might think it would have been better if they had no job at all, but I don't agree with you. The vast majority of people who start at minimum wage move past that within a couple of years. For that matter, I worked at minimum wage in my younger years on several occasions and at sub-minimum wage once in my teens. There was no oppression involved, and I got past that. It worries me when the wage theorists like you want to start telling everyone else what to do. Leave the system alone. It works.

When you speak of a minimum wage in the face of decades long prices going up, you cannot ignore the fact that the minimum wage has not kept pace with those rises, nor account for the difference between a minimum wage, and entry level wages. Let's face it, times have changed and every job should pay a living wage, and it should be against the law for any business to not do otherwise. I always use the Walmart example of paying low wages (And getting tremendous tax breaks from local governments) and workers on some kind of welfare, and we aren't talking teens we are talking adults with families, and must note they have since raised the wages of their workers, and show no signs of going out of business.

They got their tax break and in fact LOCAL, and state minimum wages have CHANGED.

minimum wage is an artificial construct .

minimum wage is an artificial construct .

So is capitalism.

minimum wage is an artificial construct .

Your constitution is an artificial construct, which makes your country and in fact every country an artificial construct

so when did you become an open border globalist ?

Let's face it, times have changed and every job should pay a living wage, and it should be against the law for any business to not do otherwise.

1. How have times changed such that every job must pay a "living wage"? Did people not need a "living wage" 40 years ago?

2. How many jobs are you prepared to see go up in smoke in order to make you and others feel better about people doing well? What do you tell to those people who no longer can get a job, or lose their job, in order that the minimum wage might be doubled?

3. What's wrong with someone working 65 hours a week in order to make ends meet? Whoever said life was going to be easy?

1. How have times changed such that every job must pay a "living wage"? Did people not need a "living wage" 40 years ago?

2. How many jobs are you prepared to see go up in smoke in order to make you and others feel better about people doing well? What do you tell to those people who no longer can get a job, or lose their job, in order that the minimum wage might be doubled?

3. What's wrong with someone working 65 hours a week in order to make ends meet? Whoever said life was going to be easy?

I seem to remember what happen to the last man I know who espoused that credo.

Industries fail, they can be helped to restructure or the people can be helped to retrain. If they are so inefficient that they can only survive with minimum wage then they deserve to fail, this is the capitalism you love, enslave the population under the guise of doing something for them. I thank God I don't live in such a society

this is the capitalism you love, enslave the population under the guise of doing something for them.

Is that the same capitalism that built the most prosperous country in history?

Is that the same capitalism that built the most prosperous country in history?

Off the backs of slaves and immigrants doped, whipped, raped, ravaged, and beat down like animals.

Off the backs of slaves and immigrants doped, whipped, raped, ravaged, and beat down like animals.

They don't get it, tal, but then the greedy never do

Off the backs of slaves and immigrants doped, whipped, raped, ravaged, and beat down like animals.

The North was always the most prosperous, and they did not have slavery. At any rate, that ended over 150 years ago, last I heard.

Slavery may have ended long ago but not all the animal treatment that followed, and they have invented better tools to enslave people, like the minimum wage.

I don't think the minimum wage has enslaved anyone. The biggest problem most of us have is the person looking at us in the mirror. We live in the freest country in the world. Most of our failure is caused by the person in the mirror

You're right, how dare those employees forced to work for nothing go to a food bank. Oh wait, these aren't poor people, they were middle class government workers. The nerve of those guys.

You must be bummed even conservative run states voted to give the poor a raise. The dufus gave himself one too.

You're right, how dare those employees forced to work for nothing go to a food bank. Oh wait, these aren't poor people, they were middle class government workers. The nerve of those guys.

You must be bummed even conservative run states voted to give the poor a raise. The dufus gave himself one too.

Try to understand, the capitalists don't want the poverty of the worker inflicted upon themselves, so they hoard money rather than being generous. This frugal mindset is thought to be Christian, but it was never Christian since the early Christians had everything in common, an idea so foreign to the prosperous, American state as to be seen as communism. Ok, was Christ a communist?

since the early Christians had everything in common,

Not true now and was not true then. They shared their possessions as each had need, but there was never common ownership.

2.5% of workers earn the minimum wage. Yeah man. So that is the great curse of capitalism, that the vast, vast majority of people working earn above, and generally far above, minimum wage? And you want to call that an economic failure? If everyone was driving a BMW, you would still find something to complain about. Most people in America who are poor are poor by their own doing. Might sound harsh, but it is true. Didn't bother to get educated. Had children out of wedlock. Not willing to work. Not willing to be responsible. Major problems with the law. They are still people and we should still be of help to them, but don't blame their poverty on capitalism. That's nonsense.

I help out at a drug rehab center. We recently had two guys graduate, meaning they completed a six month course. Both of them had a job within a week, even with addiction in their history. So yeah, I think anyone can get a job and take care of him/her self in this country if that person is mentally/physically sound.

Mentally or physically sound is where most people fall through the cracks. Even those that are mentally and physical (Or EMOTIONALLY) sound are subject to things beyond their control like plant closings and government shutdowns. It is not an easy thing to adjust or cope with such outside changes and could take YEARS to overcome. That's with the proper love, support, help, and guidance.

There is a lot more to worry about than being the victim of some criminal immigrant. Not denying that it can happen, but focusing so much resources on slowing HIM down seems a denial of much more important priorities and resources. We just have the wrong leader to adequately and reasonably address the REAL issue, as the evidence says that the resources to process and help first time migrants that struggle yield many useful productive citizens in subsequent generations.

I don't want a guy like the dufus taking my money and forcing me to help build his wall when he has lied, cheated and stolen all his life, and even now his criminal buddies are being exposed and are going to jail, and forces honest workers to work for nothing bringing unnecessary hardship to them and their families and all who use the services they provide. Colludes in the interest of enemies and conflicts with our allies. His rich guy cabinet has no empathy or experience in managing the lives of ordinary citizens, and has brought more chaos than order to America.

And you wonder why most Americans refuse to follow and resist this dufus?

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In fact the minimum wage has been a failure . What is really does is prevent entry level people from getting jobs .It destroys entry level jobs ;denying them to teens who are in desparate need of learning basic job and life skills .Moderate increases in pay become a heavy burden to low margin businesses like restaurants and grocery stores, the places most likely to have low skill work that teens traditionally used as a starting point. You can stop your moralizing about it . The fact is that the real reason the left likes the minimum wage is because every increase become the new base for union negotiations .

You would be a slave for rich guys if it weren't for unions, and lets face it, adults need a living wage, no matter their mental, physical or emotional soundness and regardless of where they work, or the condition of who they work for, but I understand your capitalist view that favors the business mans concerns over the people who work, and your aversion for worker uniting and expressing their needs, or worth. Is that why the minimum wage is a failure? You think there are still entry levels jobs JUST for teens to get their feet wet? Naw, that tradition is no longer a luxury in today's world.

Capitalism is what has been the failure.

nah I would never be a slave . I have worked where I am as long as I have because as the company has grown ,I was given the opportunity to grow with them .Other places I came and went on my terms . I consider employment a contract . I give my best effort and get compensated accordingly . When that arrangement has changed I have moved on without any bad feelings . Each place I have worked allowed me to hone my skills . My new employer benefited from what I learned at my former employer and so on.

Capitalism is what has been the failure.

Yeah. Just think what we could have done if we had socialism like Venezuela.

About 11% of American workers belong to unions, so that has not been the salvation of the American worker. For a person who works hard, increases his/her skill level, gets along with people, and stays out of trouble, the sky is still the limit, thanks to capitalism.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/how-socialism-turned-venezuela-from-the-wealthiest-country-in-south-america-into-an-economic-basket-case

Yes union membership has shrunken over the years, but the benefits are still being shared by all. Venezuela is a failed state but like most communism it fails because of the way it is implemented. Just like capitalism. No different from any class and privilege system in the world, that favors some over others.

Maybe when you conservatives stop puffing your chests out about how hard you work you would see that and be grateful enough for your own blessing, because but for the grace of God you got those blessings.

You could have been the descendent of slaves, and still fighting for the freedoms you were promised centuries later, in a country that was built on the backs of those slaves while the master takes the ALL credit. The cafeteria workers and janitors work as hard as the school administrators. Who gets credit for the great school?

You could have been the descendent of slaves, and still fighting for the freedoms you were promised centuries later,

Which lack of rights is responsible for 75% out of wedlock birth rates? You can keep blaming all those woes on others, for the greater part of the problem by far is cultural. But as long as people can be convinced their lack of success is someone else's fault, they will never change. That is the great evil of the "poor ole us" approach you frequently take.


in a country that was built on the backs of those slaves while the master takes the ALL credit.

How does that apply to the northern and western states? How does it apply to California? Answer: Not at all. It's a dead end argument and flatly untrue.


The cafeteria workers and janitors work as hard as the school administrators. Who gets credit for the great school?

Having been there, I can tell you that everyone gets credit. The "poor ole us" argument won't work there either.

but for the grace of God you got those blessings. nope there were as many other paths in life I could've taken and saw others of my "class" (how I despise that description) take turns that led to perdition and ruin. But yes blessed is the man who seeks God's grace . First you have to put yourself in the right path .

You could have been the descendent of slaves, and still fighting for the freedoms you were promised centuries later, in a country that was built on the backs of those slaves while the master takes the ALL credit. The cafeteria workers and janitors work as hard as the school administrators. Who gets credit for the great school?
I wish I had posted that :) . And I learned first-hand that it's the bottom-of-the-pecking-order pages a.k.a. shelvers who are the heart of the library, who work as hard as -- and probably harder than -- the reference librarians, catalogers, and even the director. If library materials are not where they are supposed to be, the library can't function.

I wish I had posted that :) . And I learned first-hand that it's the bottom-of-the-pecking-order pages a.k.a. shelvers who are the heart of the library, who work as hard as -- and probably harder than -- the reference librarians, catalogers, and even the director. If library materials are not where they are supposed to be, the library can't function.

Poor ole you.

In fact the minimum wage has been a failure . What is really does is prevent entry level people from getting jobs .It destroys entry level jobs ;denying them to teens who are in desparate need of learning basic job and life skills .Moderate increases in pay become a heavy burden to low margin businesses like restaurants and grocery stores, the places most likely to have low skill work that teens traditionally used as a starting point. You can stop your moralizing about it . The fact is that the real reason the left likes the minimum wage is because every increase become the new base for union negotiations .

What a load of clap trap and old boll0cks

that is why gorcery stores are rushing to automate the check out. So they can reduce payroll ,The minimum wage just gives them incentive to hasten the process .I'm guessing you were a privileged kid who did not need to work as a teen to earn money to go to school . Lucky you. I am thankful that some head of household wasn't competing for that job. I would've been priced out of the market .

that is why gorcery stores are rushing to automate the check out. So they can reduce payroll ,The minimum wage just gives them incentive to hasten the process .I'm guessing you were a privileged kid who did not need to work as a teen to earn money to go to school . Lucky you. I am thankful that some head of household wasn't competing for that job. I would've been priced out of the market .

We abolished exploitation of children a long time ago, yes, we have youth employment in the fast food industry but that only applies to a limited number. Checkouts are automated to move people through the checkout process quicker, I rarely use a traditional checkout, preferring to bag my own groceries

We abolished exploitation of children a long time ago, yes,

So a teenager having a job to earn some spending money and learn something about responsibility is now, in Clete's view, the exploitation of children. In the words of Charlie Brown, "Good grief."

So a teenager having a job to earn some spending money and learn something about responsibility is now, in Clete's view, the exploitation of children. In the words of Charlie Brown, "Good grief."

Indeed it is, we have minimum age for the employment of minors and laws that keep kids in school, as I said there are limited opportunities for employment of minors. No doubt the mum and dad business mainly run by migrants employ their kids but who knows if they are paid. Many businesses like 7-11 have been prosecuted for underpaying. As a young person I was employed in jobs such as you refer too and I now understand I was exploited

I understand I was getting experience that translated to more opportunities when I was an adult . My employers did not have to waste valuable training time teaching me how to work .

Voter fraud update : The Texas Sec State discovered
approx 95,000 individuals identified as non-U.S. citizens have a matching voter registration record in Texas, approx 58,000 of whom have voted in elections.

Only in right wing loonyville is the needs of parents with kids, below the need for a kid to have spending money. It's 2019 my gosh and grocery store and fast food training was a thing back in the last century. It's not a right kids have after school jobs, isn't that part of a parents job? If they need to help out financially at home that's a different dynamic and they may as well get out there and compete in the real world, and today's real world the so called JOB CREATORS, not the government makes those rules. Government should though set good standards and give guidance to protect it's citizens against any bad behavior or practice that could be exploitive, and we KNOW for fact that always happens.

That's why lobbyist get the big bucks and politicians get a cut. Between huge budget busting tax cuts and rich guys demanding MO MONEY what's lost is the dynamic of practical need of citizens and the government charged with the promoting and protecting it's citizens. Yeah I know, all the taxes on the rich will never pay for the debts we have incurred, but smart taxation will certainly fund things we need as a country. Yeah only the loony right can come up with a plan to compete with the rest of the world by cutting taxes for rich guys and keep wages low while ordinary conservatives beat their chest about how hard they worked to get where they are, and blast anybody else as lazy victims.

Oh poor YOU! Get them darned ultra conservatives and right wingers out of my government PLEASE, and take that lying cheating dufus and his sycophants with you. That's what will surely let America be GREAT.

Only in right wing loonyville is the needs of parents with kids, below the need for a kid to have spending money. It's 2019 my gosh and grocery store and fast food training was a thing back in the last century. It's not a right kids have after school jobs, isn't that part of a parents job? If they need to help out financially at home that's a different dynamic and they may as well get out there and compete in the real world, and today's real world the so called JOB CREATORS, not the government makes those rules. Government should though set good standards and give guidance to protect it's citizens against any bad behavior or practice that could be exploitive, and we KNOW for fact that always happens.

That's why lobbyist get the big bucks and politicians get a cut. Between huge budget busting tax cuts and rich guys demanding MO MONEY what's lost is the dynamic of practical need of citizens and the government charged with the promoting and protecting it's citizens. Yeah I know, all the taxes on the rich will never pay for the debts we have incurred, but smart taxation will certainly fund things we need as a country. Yeah only the loony right can come up with a plan to compete with the rest of the world by cutting taxes for rich guys and keep wages low while ordinary conservatives beat their chest about how hard they worked to get where they are, and blast anybody else as lazy victims.

Oh poor YOU! Get them darned ultra conservatives and right wingers out of my government PLEASE, and take that lying cheating dufus and his sycophants with you. That's what will surely let America be GREAT.

Indeed it is, we have minimum age for the employment of minors and laws that keep kids in school, as I said there are limited opportunities for employment of minors.

My first two part-time jobs as a teenager were jobs working at less than minimum wage. After that, while in college, I worked summers and part-time. At no time was I exploited. In fact, I view as a blessing. I learned a lot of practical lessons. How to get somewhere on time, work hard, handle people, handle money, be honest, and spend wisely were all lessons I could not have learned in a classroom. It grieves me that young people are being denied those life lessons because the liberal do-gooders can't just mind their own business.

We were taught those lessons in grade school by parents and teachers. You have all my sympathy for not having been educated in those areas earlier.

We were taught those lessons in grade school by parents and teachers. You have all my sympathy for not having been educated in those areas earlier.

No, you weren't, not in the same way you learn those lessons in the real world. You can't be taught, for instance, how to handle your own money wisely until you actually have some money. It is one thing to get to class on time when you are already at school, and another thing altogether to have to get up, put on clothes, and drive yourself 10 miles to work in a car you bought yourself with money you earned so as to get to work on time.

Not even close to being the same thing. You have all my sympathy for apparently not having had to the opportunity to learn real world lessons.

I learned a lot of practical lessons. How to get somewhere on time, work hard, handle people, handle money, be honest, and spend wisely were all lessons I could not have learned in a classroom. It grieves me that young people are being denied those life lessons because the liberal do-gooders can't just mind their own business.
My husband and I learned all those things at home AND at school, as did our kids. Working at paying jobs put all those lessons into the real world of work.


You can't be taught, for instance, how to handle your own money wisely until you actually have some money. It is one thing to get to class on time when you are already at school, and another thing altogether to have to get up, put on clothes, and drive yourself 10 miles to work in a car you bought yourself with money you earned so as to get to work on time.
My dad paid me a penny per pine cone (yes, we had several pine trees in our yard) that I picked up so he could cut the grass. I received birthday and Christmas money from far-away relatives; that money was put in my piggy bank and saved to buy fabrics which then were made into skirts and dresses for me (when I was older, I did the sewing). I was responsible to set my alarm clock and get up and dressed for school and Sunday morning church. When I was 15, I started working after school and Saturdays at the IGA a half-mile walk from my house, was responsible for getting there on time, serving as stockclerk and cashier (handling money, keeping customers happy, stocking shelves), dealing with wilted produce and a grumpy owner. My two sons were brought up the same way with the same expectations but had jobs in convenience stores and public libraries. Yes, lots of practical lessons -- first at home and then in the real world!

My dad paid me a penny per pine cone (yes, we had several pine trees in our yard) that I picked up so he could cut the grass. I received birthday and Christmas money from far-away relatives; that money was put in my piggy bank and saved to buy fabrics which then were made into skirts and dresses for me (when I was older, I did the sewing). I was responsible to set my alarm clock and get up and dressed for school and Sunday morning church. When I was 15, I started working after school and Saturdays at the IGA a half-mile walk from my house, was responsible for getting there on time, serving as stockclerk and cashier (handling money, keeping customers happy, stocking shelves), dealing with wilted produce and a grumpy owner. My two sons were brought up the same way with the same expectations but had jobs in convenience stores and public libraries. Yes, lots of practical lessons -- first at home and then in the real world!

I would agree with that. Both are needed. A high minimum wage tends to keep kids out of part-time and summer jobs. That's a shame.

Mom and dad can buy groceries without assistance.

Voter fraud update : The Texas Sec State discovered
approx 95,000 individuals identified as non-U.S. citizens have a matching voter registration record in Texas, approx 58,000 of whom have voted in elections.




Fake news from Trump.

Tom, you have to stop re-tweeting Trump's tweets. Surely you know by now the moron is a liar and doesn't understand numbers.

He has totally misconstrued Texas Sec'y of State report on voter figures. For one, the 58,000 number is over a period of 22 years! And even then the report doesn't say they are non-US citizens.

Please read it for yourself and don't depend on Trump for your facts. He doesn't read well and has poor reading comprehension.

When you post false figures like you've done here, you make us wonder about other "facts" you post.

Sounds pretty accurate to me. What facts are you using? This comes from that great bastion of conservative thought, the NY Times.

"The Texas secretary of state’s office on Friday called into question the citizenship status of 95,000 registered voters who were found to have identified themselves at some point to a state law enforcement agency as noncitizen, legal residents of the United States.
The office said its findings were a result of an 11-month investigation with the Texas Department of Public Safety that also found that about 58,000 people on the list had voted since 1996. The results of the investigation were referred on Friday to Attorney General Ken Paxton, who said he planned to open a potentially sprawling investigation."

The 58,000 means they have voted since 1996, so that sounds like it was done repeatedly over a period of 22 years. Is it a big deal? That depends on whether this is the iceberg or the tip of the iceberg.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/us/noncitizens-voting-texas.html

Let me explain the repub voter playbook. First they allow no immigration policy or language that allows illegals to become legal. Then they expand the illegal label, and that justifies greater scrutiny, and justifies purging the voter roll, with or without evidence that it's an accurate process. Then they fudge the numbers for example 3 million illegals voted, and leave out the 10 year period of the finding, to scare the heck out of folks and justify more polling/election security, and purge undesirable voters. And that's only ONE tool in the bag of tricks.

What makes it work, is an unaware public who doesn't verify the findings or reports, and willing to believe those that say the findings are flawed. The motive? To keep power despite changing demographic, and changing veiws and attitudes. Control the congress and control the money, and the power and influence that goes with it.

The solution is an informed electorate, and greater voter participation, as well as an accurate and robust process of oversight. Till then we only have the courts to settle these disputes.

Then they fudge the numbers for example 3 million illegals voted, and leave out the 10 year period of the finding,

Where did you get those figures from?

I presented no figures but have lived through the tactics as have many. Repubs holler widespread voter fraud and even have a list of names as proof, but upon investigation, they end up with far fewer, and single digit convictions in a good year. That's how it's been done in Pennsylvania, where local repubs admitted to their goal to suppress votes of dems, Wisconsin, Florida, Georgia, Michigan and the Carolinas, and at home in Texas. It's an old story, and they NEVER report the outcomes after an investigation, leaving the lie to linger about fraudulent voters as the justification for even stricter voter suppression laws. Create the fear, blow it up, and come to the rescue with suppressive solutions by repub state legislatures.

It's no wonder that the lying cheating dufus is embraced by lying cheating repubs. Despicable, and as I said old tricks done in public to sway elections. I will let you get your own links just Google voter fraud in... and add any state you want.

Here's but a sample in Texas. Silly season has begun AGAIN for 2020.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/texas-voter-fraud-allegations_us_5c4f8708e4b00906b26c62ac

They tell it very well. This from the Brennan Center is also submitted for your perusal,

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

I will include this article of suppression as another example of repub dirty election tricks.

https://www.care2.com/causes/what-does-voter-suppression-look-like-here-are-6-examples.html

I presented no figures

Uhm...other than the figures of 3 million illegals voting over a period of ten years? So where did you get those figures??

And no, I'm not going to waste my time digging through three articles that, if history is any indicator, will provide no justification for the figures you stated. Did you just make them up, or is there any source you can point to?

I actually used YOUR post and link to cross reference your article with local news TV reports.

I actually used YOUR post and link to cross reference your article with local news TV reports.

My link only referred to about 90,000 total and 50,000 or so voting, so I have no idea how you could come up with the figures you used, but I like yours a lot better! 3 million is a lot more serious than "merely" 58,000. And you wonder why we conservatives want voter ID. Nonsense just like this is the reason why.

Again from your link



were a result of an 11-month investigation with the Texas Department of Public Safety that also found that about 58,000 people on the list had voted since 1996.


23 years by my count and no telling if the status of those had changed in that time. With no prosecutions then like you're wall solution to illegal immigration, your voter fraud crisis is overblown BS!

23 years by my count and no telling if the status of those had changed in that time. With no prosecutions then like you're wall solution to illegal immigration, your voter fraud crisis is overblown BS!

Now let's see. Millions are here illegally, with the number growing daily, but we don't need a wall. And if we use your figure, millions have voted illegally, but nothing to worry about there either. I guess we just view things differently.

All those mexicans taking back the country you stole from them, how is manifest destiny looking now?

Ever heard of the republic of Texas? Have you heard of how Mexico seceded from Spain, who had taken the land from indian nations? Check your history.

The republic of Texas, a very short lived nation who gave in to manifest destiny. I expect they didn't want to be a barrier nation and so they became a barrier state. The republic of Texas stole the land. They were invited in as settlers and rebelled, starting a war, and in the longer term The US invaded Mexico and took even more land. How's that for history, not the nice sanitised version and the daring do of the Alamo is it?

You americans don't want to admit that all you want to do is expand by conquest, it is in your blood, in the very nature of your peoples extending far back in history since you are the successors to those european and asiatic hordes who were forever moving west. Enough history for you?

As I said, Spain took land from the indians. Mexico rebelled against Spain. Texas declared its independence from Mexico. The United and Mexico fought a war resulting in Mexico ceding land to the U.S. Was it all nice and moral? Probably not, just like the history of Australia was not. Was Australia already settled by natives when your ancestors arrived? Are those natives still in control of things?

Now let's see. Millions are here illegally, with the number growing daily, but we don't need a wall. And if we use your figure, millions have voted illegally, but nothing to worry about there either. I guess we just view things differently.


There is no evidence at this time that millions have voted illegally, or that a wall will stop illegals from getting here. Putting people in jail hasn't stopped drugs either, so maybe the solutions you propose to solve those problems are a waste of money and grossly inadequate.

Let's just stop listening to a lying cheating dufus and his merry band of sycophants. LOL, here in Texas the ranchers and landowners are still fighting Bush's eminent domain attempt for his FENCE. So yeah we see things very differently.



All those mexicans taking back the country you stole from them, how is manifest destiny looking now?


Everybody throughout the history of man calls their conflicts something to justify and sanitize the brutal savage and bloody actions that facilitate their conquests. That's just the history and nature of man.

As I said, Spain took land from the indians. Mexico rebelled against Spain. Texas declared its independence from Mexico. The United and Mexico fought a war resulting in Mexico ceding land to the U.S. Was it all nice and moral? Probably not, just like the history of Australia was not. Was Australia already settled by natives when your ancestors arrived? Are those natives still in control of things?

There were natives here when the British arrived just as they were in your own nation. They were not organised hardly more than scattered family groups. There was some resistance at times but just as in your own nation gold changed everything. As to the natives being in control, they would like to be, but as a minority their voice is heard more in protest than governance but their ethos exists here. Even after 200 years they still protest invasion and the fact we dare to celebrate the arrival of those ill fated convicts

There is no evidence at this time that millions have voted illegally,

I was using your figures. "Then they fudge the numbers for example 3 million illegals voted, and leave out the 10 year period of the finding," If there is no evidence, then why did you state that?


that a wall will stop illegals from getting here

There are some walled areas on the border. Where they are, there is very little border crossing. It is actually established that walls stop illegal crossings.


Let's just stop listening to a lying cheating dufus and his merry band of sycophants. LOL, here in Texas the ranchers and landowners are still fighting Bush's eminent domain attempt for his FENCE. So yeah we see things very differently.

So where do they find all those ranchers that have been interviewed and are in favor of a wall? And if all you Texans see things differently, then why did you overwhelmingly vote for the candidate in favor of the wall?


There were natives here when the British arrived just as they were in your own nation. They were not organised hardly more than scattered family groups. There was some resistance at times but just as in your own nation gold changed everything. As to the natives being in control, they would like to be, but as a minority their voice is heard more in protest than governance but their ethos exists here. Even after 200 years they still protest invasion and the fact we dare to celebrate the arrival of those ill fated convicts

So how did that manifest destiny work out for you? Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?

There were natives here when the British arrived just as they were in your own nation. They were not organised hardly more than scattered family groups. There was some resistance at times but just as in your own nation gold changed everything. As to the natives being in control, they would like to be, but as a minority their voice is heard more in protest than governance but their ethos exists here. Even after 200 years they still protest invasion and the fact we dare to celebrate the arrival of those ill fated convicts

The British conquered everybody at one time or another, but like most empires, they have shrunk, but Australia like America became independent and even trusted allies because of that common ancestry. Alliances are often better than colonies, and no doubt all intend to keep it that way. You overwhelmed the natives just with NUMBERS since you had the power to declare your migrants LEGAL and sanctioned by the British government (And then the Australian government). Pretty much how the America's were conquered by the British with competing Euro interests. What money couldn't buy people with guns could, and did.



I was using your figures. "Then they fudge the numbers for example 3 million illegals voted, and leave out the 10 year period of the finding," If there is no evidence, then why did you state that?

I was just reporting JL, the figures they used which THEY fudged, but it's not the numbers, but the SPIN because to create certain laws and sell them to the public there must be a crisis or condition to justify them. I mean FACT is though there are cases of fraud, why aren't there 3 MILLION people going to jail? So despite all the rhetoric and legislation they haven't caught but a handful of people as the said article points out, so evidence points to a great exaggeration of the problem, to mask another intent.


There are some walled areas on the border. Where they are, there is very little border crossing. It is actually established that walls stop illegal crossings.

Another fact people don't know is that border guards already know full well the flaws in the fence and that's where they concentrate the resources. Go ahead, build a wall, and somebody blows a hole in it and floods the zone with people to overwhelm the guards patrolling that area. Imagine blowing 4 holes in your wall and flooding people through them. LOL, even for every tunnel you find imagine 8 more that you don't.


So where do they find all those ranchers that have been interviewed and are in favor of a wall? And if all you Texans see things differently, then why did you overwhelmingly vote for the candidate in favor of the wall?


Dude Texas is a huge state, and a republican voting one, even with all us liberals running around. Many didn't vote because of this wall nonsense, or despite it, but if you need more links besides the ones I have already supplied then here we go.

https://www.npr.org/2017/02/23/516895052/landowners-likely-to-bring-more-lawsuits-as-trump-moves-on-border-wall


Large federal land acquisition projects typically take years. Today, 91of the landowner cases in South Texas remain open and evenmore are expected. When Trump signed his executive order last month calling for his "big beautiful wall," Hanen knew what that would mean. "What I thought was, 'Oh, this is going to be a lot more work for us,' " Hanen says. "It's gonna be a lot of headache. The people in South Texas, there are a lot of hard feelings about the wall."


So how did that manifest destiny work out for you? Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?

Australians have a right to call the conquest of their land anything they want.

I was just reporting JL, the figures they used which THEY fudged

You believed the figures, wherever you got them from, enough to state them. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah, those Mexicans are always blowing up walls and then rushing thousands of illegals through. It's happened so many times in the past, like ZERO times. Next you'll be saying they'll use army tanks to demolish the wall and then army trucks to rush the illegals through. You do have a vivid imagination. I'll give you that. As for the tunnels, that is a threat, but having to use tunnels means the numbers are reduced to a relative trickle, and if we can cut illegal immigration by 80% or 90% by constructing a wall, then I'm all for it.

No, I will not look up your article. It will be no more useful than the last ten ones you have posted.

Again, Texas voted overwhelmingly for the guy who promised to build the wall. No, I do not believe that Texas is opposed to the wall.

You believed the figures, wherever you got them from, enough to state them. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah, those Mexicans are always blowing up walls and then rushing thousands of illegals through. It's happened so many times in the past, like ZERO times. Next you'll be saying they'll use army tanks to demolish the wall and then army trucks to rush the illegals through. You do have a vivid imagination. I'll give you that. As for the tunnels, that is a threat, but having to use tunnels means the numbers are reduced to a relative trickle, and if we can cut illegal immigration by 80% or 90% by constructing a wall, then I'm all for it.

No, I will not look up your article. It will be no more useful than the last ten ones you have posted.

Again, Texas voted overwhelmingly for the guy who promised to build the wall. No, I do not believe that Texas is opposed to the wall.

Don't underestimate what Mexicans, or Central Americans will do, nor their resourcefulness. Yeah blowing a hole through the wall was a hypothetical as was your assumption that all Texans are for the wall. 4 in 10 Texans did vote for Hillary. So it's very accurate to say a lot of Texans oppose the wall. I can say that about most Americans in general, especially if you shut the government down to get it.

Sorry you don't read my links or disagree with them, so I won't present the FACTS to back my assertion that illegal immigration has gone down in the last decade and deportations are up, WITHOUT A WALL, and I can get a lot of people and dope through a tunnel you didn't/haven't found, but most of it comes through the LEGAL points of entry with commerce. To add a growing number of your illegals flew here LAWFULLY, but stayed after their documents expired, and a wall won't help that.

So let me ask about the dufus plan to spend my tax dollars on walls and such to keep illegals out while employing hundred at his personal properties. Is that hypocrisy, or should we believe he just didn't know?

your assumption that all Texans are for the wall.

Your imagination is at work again. I have never said or assumed that.

You are correct that the wall will not stop all illegal crossings, anymore than you locking your door will prevent thieves (or Mueller's team!) from breaking in, but it does make it more difficult and therefore less likely. The wall does the same thing.

Politifact says illegal immigration is the lowest in 17 years, but that is based on how many were caught crossing, so I don't know how accurate that "guesstimate" would be. Still, sounds reasonable. I think we would agree that we also need to address the issue of the millions who are here now and are unlikely to simply return home.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/apr/25/donald-trump/illegal-immigration-lowest-17-years-trump-said/

You are correct that the wall will not stop all illegal crossings ... but it does make it more difficult and therefore less likely. The wall does the same thing.
Nope, the wall won't do that. Instead, it will prevent family and business interactions between people living in the two countries, prevent animal migrations, anger Texans whose private property is taken by the federal government, and won't be high enough or deep enough. A wall didn't work for Hadrian or the Chinese, nor did the Berlin Wall work for East Germany.

Why not remove our lust for illegal drugs? That includes legalizing certain ones and getting serious about treating drug addiction. If there's no market....

Nope, the wall won't do that. Instead, it will prevent family and business interactions between people living in the two countries, prevent animal migrations, anger Texans whose private property is taken by the federal government, and won't be high enough or deep enough. A wall didn't work for Hadrian or the Chinese, nor did the Berlin Wall work for East Germany.

You don't know your history. All three walls you mentioned worked quite well for a long period of time. In fact, the Berlin wall worked so well that one of the first acts upon the fall of the Soviets was to dismantle it. And, of course, there will still be crossing points, as there are now, so business and LEGITIMATE crossings will not be affected. As to migrations, that is also already in discussion as to how to mitigate those effects.

Remove our lust for illegal drugs by legalizing them? Yes. That will certainly dial back their use. Are you kidding? Show me where the legalization of drugs has resulted in their use diminishing. Dope is now legal in Cally and Colo. Has the use increased or decreased? We have a "fun mentality" in our country and a loss of appreciation that all we have came from, and belongs to, God. We have lost the sense of the value of life and a responsibility to use our's wisely. Maybe we could start emphasizing that.

I said legalizing CERTAIN ones. How you misquote and change what was meant!

P.S. Building a wall is stoopid.

If you say you want to legalize "certain ones", then you want to legalize drugs. I didn't suggest you wanted to legalize them all. I don't think I changed your meaning, but OK. Which "certain ones" would you legalize?

um there is an OBVIOUS difference between a border fence to keep invaders out and the Berlin wall intended to keep East Germans enslaved . Both the Dems and Republicans supported and paid for a 274 mile wall between Jordan and Iraq and Syria to keep the Islamic State out of Jordon last year . Spare me the nonsense that walls don't work . The Egyptian steel wall in the Sinai has been very effective in stopping smuggling into or from Egypt by Hamas . Spain's wall has been effective in reducing human trafficking from Morocco . In 2014, approximately 19,000 people attempted to cross into Spain.. That number diminished to approximately 3,700 in 2015 .There have been a number of new walls built in Europe to stem the flow of migrants .

The ones trying to cross are refugees looking for a safe place to live and immigrants looking for work that pays a living wage. The drugrunners come here from China via the ocean ports. (And from Canada -- hmmmm, we need a wall....)


If you say you want to legalize "certain ones", then you want to legalize drugs. I didn't suggest you wanted to legalize them all. I don't think I changed your meaning, but OK. Which "certain ones" would you legalize?
Yes, you changed my meaning!!!!!

I haven't researched which currently illegal drugs are being used and which of those should be legalized. *putting on my librarian hat*

I haven't researched which currently illegal drugs are being used and which of those should be legalized. *putting on my librarian hat*

Well, I guess we'll just wait.

Well, I guess we'll just wait.
Help yourself to a few opioids in that bowl on the coffeetable.

Border patrol today interdicted the largest illegal fentanyl shipment ever at the Mexican border . 254 lb worth .But heroin is the biggest threat according to the DEA and 2nd easiestonly to pot to obtain. The primary source is from poppy fields grown in Mexico and imported into the US by the cartels .The fentanyl is primarily made in China and smuggled into the US through the southern border although a growing trend is to ship into ports or in parcels sent direct from China.

The weakest argument to me in favor of the wall is drug interdiction. Unless the demand side of drug abuse is addressed then interdiction is at best a half measure .

You talk of refugees ? Well that is debatable because there is no provision in US law or international law that allows for economic refugee status .There are laws for the admission of refugees into the country and that does not include the bum rushing of the border . Refugee applications should be made BEFORE entry into the country and anyone who violates that is breaking the law and should be dealt with appropriately with immediate deportation .

Refugee applications should be made BEFORE entry into the country and anyone who violates that is breaking the law and should be dealt with appropriately with immediate deportation .
...after their children are taken away and sent to camps where they will be drugged and kept in cages.

.after their children are taken away and sent to camps where they will be drugged and kept in cages.

Yeah, and those high schoolers from Kentucky assaulted a nice Native American man who is a Vietnam veteran.

One story is about as true as the other.

Yeah, and those high schoolers from Kentucky assaulted a nice Native American man who is a Vietnam veteran.
Assaulted? You apparently haven't been keeping up with emerging details on that story.

You're saying no children were separated from parents and then drugged and caged?

Assaulted? You apparently haven't been keeping up with emerging details on that story.


I was saying that the high school kids story was about as true as you suggesting taking kids from parents and putting them into cages is standard operating procedure by the border patrol.

come here legally ;problem solved . I am not swayed by sob stories .

come here legally ;problem solved . I am not swayed by sob stories .

My brother!

Border patrol today interdicted the largest illegal fentanyl shipment ever at the Mexican border . 254 lb worth .But heroin is the biggest threat according to the DEA and 2nd easiestonly to pot to obtain. The primary source is from poppy fields grown in Mexico and imported into the US by the cartels .The fentanyl is primarily made in China and smuggled into the US through the southern border although a growing trend is to ship into ports or in parcels sent direct from China.

The weakest argument to me in favor of the wall is drug interdiction. Unless the demand side of drug abuse is addressed then interdiction is at best a half measure .

You talk of refugees ? Well that is debatable because there is no provision in US law or international law that allows for economic refugee status .There are laws for the admission of refugees into the country and that does not include the bum rushing of the border . Refugee applications should be made BEFORE entry into the country and anyone who violates that is breaking the law and should be dealt with appropriately with immediate deportation .


Tom I know you are trying to address the practicalities rather than the political nuiances, however the border wall is a political issue. Like locks, walls only stop honest people. As these illegals have overwhelmed the border, the practicalities of finding, arresting and deporting millions is daunting to say the least, which is why it hasn't happened. There is a way but you liberty loving will not take it. Identity card, photo ID, only obtainable by proving citizenship. Without it and a Green Card where applicable, anyone caught by whatever means, violation, traffic stop, etc and you can do your catch and release once you have solved the problem of how to actually transport millions and have them accepted Those FEMA camps would come in handy

walls only stop honest people.

I guess that's why they put them around prisons?? Around the Vatican?

It's also true that door locks only stop honest people, but we all use them. Why? Because it's makes it much more difficult for DIShonest people to cross, and therefore slows down the traffic. Same thing is true of border guards, but no one suggests we do away with them.


Without it and a Green Card where applicable, anyone caught by whatever means, violation, traffic stop, etc and you can do your catch and release once you have solved the problem of how to actually transport millions and have them accepted Those FEMA camps would come in handy.

I'm tempted to agree with you, but having to have your "papers" with you at all times reminds me too much of Nazi Germany.

I'm tempted to agree with you, but having to have your "papers" with you at all times reminds me too much of Nazi Germany.

Do you drive without a drivers licence? If you travel overseas do you take your passport with you? I don't see the difference

I see your point, but the DL is only to show that you are a qualified driver. To have to identify yourself for simply sitting in your house or walking down the street seems excessive.

I see your point, but the DL is only to show that you are a qualified driver. To have to identify yourself for simply sitting in your house or walking down the street seems excessive.

Where I come from driver's licence is defacto photo ID and I carry a Social Security ID and a Medicare ID both issued by the government. It is no big deal, But one thing for sure no one can say I'm not a citizen

Where I come from driver's licence is defacto photo ID and I carry a Social Security ID and a Medicare ID both issued by the government. It is no big deal, But one thing for sure no one can say I'm not a citizen.

Pretty much the same thing here. Most people have their DL all the time and we old folk carry our medicare card with us, but very few carry a SS card since people love to steal SS numbers in order to make a fake credit card account. However, in many states, an illegal immigrant can get a DL, so that becomes less reliable.

Pretty much the same thing here. Most people have their DL all the time and we old folk carry our medicare card with us, but very few carry a SS card since people love to steal SS numbers in order to make a fake credit card account. However, in many states, an illegal immigrant can get a DL, so that becomes less reliable.

In order to get any kind of bank account here you need three forms of ID, a passport or drivers licence, mail with your address on it such as a utility bill, and the other ID's.

The law actually says that any immigrant can apply for asylum, and be duly processed and adjudicated. A great deal of them do get deported. Hiding kids not new nor losing them either and it did make Obama stop and change the process, but the dufus brought it back on steroids until a court stepped in.

Not sure about legalizing anything but pot, but for sure it, and other drugs should be reclassified and decriminalized immediately. At least a chance for some to get clean enough to pass the drug test for first hires, and help for the working slug. At least like they do for drinkers. Which I think is a highly more destruct drug than is pot. But there has always been a huge market for a variety of drugs here. That's not going to be solved with jails or walls or treatment. That 254 lbs. of the fent is probably a small amount compared to what they didn't find though for sure.

Wonder how much the dufus made of his illegals? He sends in a request every year for cheap labor, and I doubt if he cares about the papers. Obviously it's been going on for whatever reason for a long time since those fired folks been here for many years working for him.

What a strange attitude towards freedom we are developing in our country. Free to smoke pot (and at least according to WG, free to take certain drugs now illegal), freedom to marry same sex, but not free to choose not to participate in that wedding. Freedom for a man to go into the women's restroom so long as he is wearing a dress. Just a strange series of events. I don't think we value the true meaning of freedom anymore.

Freedom for a man to go into the women's restroom so long as he is wearing a dress.
JL, have you ever been in a women's washroom? Do you know how they're designed?

JL, have you ever been in a women's washroom? Do you know how they're designed?

Strange to say, I have. Twice, to be exact, and both times inadvertently. I'm sure you are trying to make the point that there are toilets in stalls, so there is privacy. Now if you want your 10 year old daughter in the restroom with a man on that basis, then go for it, but I think it's a basically crazy idea with no justification other than the equally crazy idea that if a man thinks he is a woman, then he surely must be.

BTW, Wondergirl, have you decided yet which illegal drugs should be legalized?

BTW, Wondergirl, have you decided yet which illegal drugs should be legalized?
I haven't decided yet. Alcohol and tobacco and in some states cannabis are already legal, so can't list them. Legalizing currently illegal drugs would be a type of reverse psychology. Fentanyl perhaps? Cocaine? Meth? Heroin? Legalize them and we won't need a wall.

Fentanyl perhaps? Cocaine? Meth? Heroin? Legalize them and we won't need a wall.

Will still need a wall to stop the half million illegal immigrants currently pouring across each year. As to the drugs, I hope you are joking.

Those who want to legalise drugs are not joking, they think prohibition doesn't work, you can't protect people from themselves.

There are some things society needs to change for addiction to become unnessary

Will still need a wall to stop the half million illegal immigrants currently pouring across each year.
But tRump needs those illegal immigrants to build his towers, staff them, and work at Mar-a-lago.

There are some things society needs to change for addiction to become unnessary.

What would that be?

A return to believing in something other than self and self gratification

A return to believing in something other than self and self gratification
And better ways to handle physical and emotional pain.

A return to believing in something other than self and self gratification.

Clete, I'm starting to like your posts.

Clete, I'm starting to like your posts.

Well, of course. What's not to like?

A return to believing in something other than self and self gratification

I like that too, Clete!

I like that too, Clete!

We agree on something! It's a miracle.

The power is in the point of agreement. I wish politicians would learn that

Unable to get his funding Donald the orange has built a wall of vehicles and men upon the border showing those caravaneers that they shall not cross. This may be a more practical solution as the numbers of refugees are matched by law enforcement and troops and he doesn't need Nancy's approval

he won't need her approval to give them a wiff of grape.

I hear he is going to get some funding to build a little more wall maybe he could use that to build a little wall instead of a big beautiful wall but it has to be cheaper to build it with vehicles there must be a lot of tanks, APC and trucks in mothballs looking for a home

Oh look , Trumpy the dumpy going to get some of his mula in an agreement that will see the government not shut down for a second time.

Seriously, Will any political party give in if someone cries that much.

Oh well, back to Stephen Colbert for updates.

Oh well, back to Stephen Colbert for updates.

Exchanging one dill for another?

I haven't decided yet. Alcohol and tobacco and in some states cannabis are already legal, so can't list them.


cannabis is not legal .The Federal government ,that has primacy in the constitution ,has so far chosen to not enforce it's laws regarding marijuana .

Trump has lost it completely, he now wants to declare a national emergency and dirvert funds to build the wall. Is this the art of the deal or just ego in full stride? It is obvious he either lacks advisers or cannot listen to anyone but himself

The mad king of america is worse than King George

>crunch... munch... crunch!< Told you to get popcorn and enjoy the show! When you gonna to listen?

Well, of course, Tal, we know it is a circus and the Clown in Chief holds the centre ring. Personally I have a circus of my own to watch at the moment but yours is much more entertaining. You see, it couldn't happen here that a money bill could originate in the Senate and our Head of State has no individual power of appropriation

as I said elsewhere the last King of America was MAD and this King is also MAD! I think you have a different emergency

If Trump-haters paid attention to this core idea, they might understand why Trump supporters care far more about whether the president builds the wall and strengthen border security than they care about whether Mexico pays for the wall directly or indirectly.

If Trump-haters paid attention to this core idea, they might understand why Trump supporters care far more about whether the president builds the wall and strengthen border security than they care about whether Mexico pays for the wall directly or indirectly.

The same people who are upset about Trump now making the American taxpayer pay for the wall were remarkably quiet when Obama did not deliver on "You can keep your doctor/private plan."

He did deliver on that, but severely neglected to warn of maybe your doctor didn't want you. That was the biggest sticking point going forward from Obamacare. Many doctors don't take my new Medicare plans... BUMMER!

He did deliver on that, but severely neglected to warn of maybe your doctor didn't want you.

You and perhaps five other people in America believe that. Changing to a different plan (couldn't keep your old one contrary to what Obama/Pelosi had promised) meant changing networks which meant, in many cases, you could not keep your doctor. Medicare has nothing to do with what happened to most people with Obamacare.

As far as I'm concerned ,the National Emergency Act(NEA )50 U.S.C. § 1601 is just another abdication of power by the Legislative Branch.In our constitutional system, Congress is supposed to do the legislating, which includes determining the conditions ;emergency or otherwise ; that call for legislation. The rise of the imperial Presidency began with the Wilson administration with the expansion growing every term. Precedence is with the President at this point .But if I were a property owner on the border ;and the President used executive powers to seize my land ,I would feel abused and would join a court challenge .
Congress passed Obamacare .It was not accomplished by declaring a national emergency . I think it was a bad law ;but it was passed as law should be passed.The payback will come when future President AOC declares the climate a national emergency requiring executive action.

Tomder, I think you stated it well. I think Trump is making a mistake with this declaration of an emergency where there is plainly not one. However, it would seem that there are real emergencies that do need to be dealt with and require time-sensitive responses that legislation cannot meet. How should those be dealt with?

59 emergencies have been declared since the law passed .Most of them do not go away. Here is the list of National Emergencies we are operating under . Not many of them were real emergencies when the executive invoked them .
even those which began under emergency conditions, like 9/11, have lingered well past all reasonable understanding of the term.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/list-31-national-emergencies-effect-years/story?id=60294693

Before the NEA Presidents always had the power to declare emergencies and Congress generally trusted the Presidents to responsibly exercise their inherent Article 2 powers .If Congress wanted to they could always defund .
Lawmakers were generally comfortable with giving the commander in chief the benefit of the doubt that he had the nation’s best interests at heart and would also use his authority responsibly.

But that wasn't always the case . FDR used it to intern Japanese American citizens . Harry Truman attempted to use emergency powers to seize American steel mills .
Lincoln conceded that his unilateral suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War was constitutionally questionable, but defended it as necessary to preserve the Union. The Constitution says only Congress has to power to suspend habeas corpus. ….“when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it” and “provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.”
In theory the NEA was supposed to give the legislative branch a share of the responsibility .

The law says that Congress is mandated to meet six months after a specific emergency is issued “to consider a vote on a joint resolution to determine whether that emergency shall be terminated.” If, for whatever reason, both houses of Congress believed a declaration was no longer appropriate, lawmakers could pass a joint resolution ending it. The truth is that it has never been invoked .Congress has never even met to consider ending one ;let alone every six months, to vote on whether to end them.

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/430335-why-trump-will-win-the-wall-fight

Yeah we don't need a wall


“It’s cheap. And abundant. That is why we are seeing a dramatic escalation of crystal methamphetamine use because it is being shipped to our county at the border. People aren’t making it anymore, because it comes here so cheap from Mexico.”Cleveland says meth labs started popping up in Ashtabula in 2002, but due to a crackdown “in the last 18 months, we’ve seen almost a wholesale elimination” of them. “That void . . . is being filled by Mexican cartels bringing meth across the borders,”
https://nypost.com/2019/02/16/mexicos-killer-meth-is-sweeping-through-america-and-ruining-lives/

A wall isn't going to make a dent in the drug trade.

Drug trafficking » Immigration to the United States (http://immigrationtounitedstates.org/466-drug-trafficking.html)

If the wall helps with the drug trade, then that's great, but the much greater purpose, at least in my mind, is to cut back on illegal immigration.

You really think a big beautiful wall will deter migrants? How many illegals will it stop , since most fly in on a visa and don't go home. The gang members and criminals get caught and deported many times so how will a wall work for them? You think a gangster can't get a visa? You think they worry about a wall? You've seen the tunnels, and they find new ones all the time. It's a never ending story.

Maybe the best outcome is helping the dufus build a wall and if it doesn't work as advertised then the taxpayers can send him the bill. HEHEHE I doubt we do much collecting on that, it's more likely we get stiffed like everybody else who deals with the dufus.

You really think a big beautiful wall will deter migrants? How many illegals will it stop , since most fly in on a visa and don't go home. The gang members and criminals get caught and deported many times so how will a wall work for them? You think a gangster can't get a visa? You think they worry about a wall? You've seen the tunnels, and they find new ones all the time. It's a never ending story.

Maybe the best outcome is helping the dufus build a wall and if it doesn't work as advertised then the taxpayers can send him the bill. HEHEHE I doubt we do much collecting on that, it's more likely we get stiffed like everybody else who deals with the dufus.

Yes undoubtedly the wall needs to be built some place else and the southern Mexican border would be a cheaper and quicker option but the Mexicans don't appear to be concerned by the flow of refugees, etc

since most fly in on a visa and don't go home. The gang members and criminals get caught and deported many times so how will a wall work for them?

So we just keep doing what we've been doing which is working... lousy?? No, most don't fly in on a visa. Most walk in from south to north, and yes, I think a wall will slow that down considerably. As for the gang members and criminals, we need to put them in a hot jail in the middle of the Nevada desert and let them sit for a few years.

So we just keep doing what we've been doing which is working... lousy?? No, most don't fly in on a visa. Most walk in from south to north, and yes, I think a wall will slow that down considerably. As for the gang members and criminals, we need to put them in a hot jail in the middle of the Nevada desert and let them sit for a few years.

It is a mistake to keep these people in jail in country, you need to deposit them in a dark place far away so they cannot develop their networks in a prison population. Think, what would Kim do with them. Ah. But you are too civilised to do this. Put them to work, perhaps building a border wall. No pay of course, enslave them the way they enslave others. This they understand

last night at the Academy Awards .... oh the irony https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52853974_10155779872422471_938540187711963136_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=d1c0131f20c3874a07864b761734d52d&oe=5CE87895

I've always suspected the Academy was run by a bunch of racist homophobes. The wall proves it! Down with the Academy and their big, beautiful wall. (<:

There is no irony over temporary security measures for an event.

I'm into permanent security measures ,

I'm into permanent security measures ,
Then we'd better build a wall protecting us from fentanyl shipments flooding the US from Canada.

There can be no such thing as permanent security measure since the bad guys watch closely, learn, and adjust to whatever the good guys do. Security must also be ready willing and able to adjust, or what's the point?

what's the point ? Here is a photo of Pelosi's home .Note the big beautiful wall that serves as part of permanent security for her and her family .
https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2018/02/nancy_pelosi_house_wall_meme.jpg?resize=865,452 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiZwoLhl9jgAhUHPN8KHfEnAioQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.snopes.com%2Ffact-check%2Fis-this-a-wall-around-nancy-pelosis-home%2F&psig=AOvVaw3ZTKWE0rOoN36Wf9H6eKGA&ust=1551228018642477)

Here is the emperor's Washington DC home . Note the wall he expanded once he moved in to enhance his security .https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/01/06/18/3BE5AA0400000578-4095126-Workers_were_seen_at_the_property_on_Friday_mornin g_constructing-a-2_1483726247259.jpg (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi9iMjBmNjgAhVQNd8KHR1pBgEQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fart icle-4095126%2FWorkers-seen-building-wall-Obamas-new-Washington-DC-home.html&psig=AOvVaw198f_xwsRh5b8s1QabapPR&ust=1551228961661771)

Here is Evita's home . Evita ;tear down that wall !!! https://freemartyg.com/images/Clinton_house_google_maps_2.jpg (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjl4I-RmdjgAhUDT98KHag_AycQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffreemartyg.com%2Fmrs-clinton-tear-down-this-wall-around-your-house&psig=AOvVaw2ijt6_gc97Dh_nRY0Y8zWr&ust=1551229141495092)

here is the new wall that Sandanista Bill De Blasio had built around Gracie Mansion https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/12/13/nyregion/13GRACIE/13GRACIE-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiM_IXnmdjgAhXCY98KHf1uDoYQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2014%2F12%2F13 %2Fnyregion%2Ffence-at-gracie-mansion-now-taller-than-de-blasio.html&psig=AOvVaw18tEbpaoMdlObX8-zZjjXO&ust=1551229343569664)

Hey I get it and endorse it, I have my own modest version of a big beautiful wall to keep out unwanted visitors but the reality is the left doesn't want to keep visitors out and they don't want to keep potential residents out but it is obvious on a personal level that they think walls preferable to guns, maybe?

Behind those walls are men with guns, as will be the great wall the dufus wants. Unfortunately the dufus conflates unarmed men and even more women and children as invaders and criminals which is a lie or more charitably a great exaggeration. I think a human process of humans without that soaring exaggeration would yield better results and separate the desperate from the criminal very easily since asylum seekers are LEGAL under our law.

Plus I think it's pretty stupid to even listen to the conniving schemes of a proven liar, cheater, and bully who has ripped off citizens for decades. Only the loony right could find such a character to follow.

Plus I think it's pretty stupid to even listen to the conniving schemes of a proven liar, cheater, and bully who has ripped off citizens for decades.

I agree completely. I don't listen to Hillary either.

since asylum seekers are LEGAL under our law. then you are completely unfamiliar with the law if you believe someone bum rushing the border is obeying asylum laws .

Let's face it Tom, law is only a convenience to the left. They can use it to coerce

I agree completely. I don't listen to Hillary either.

That's fair enough on it's face, but you do listen to the dufus so that's not exactly a step up. Since elected he has told enough LIES that you cannot use the Hillary excuse any longer.


then you are completely unfamiliar with the law if you believe someone bum rushing the border is obeying asylum laws .

There you go with your soaring rhetoric, not unlike the dufus LIES! The law is the law.

That's fair enough on it's face, but you do listen to the dufus so that's not exactly a step up. Since elected he has told enough LIES that you cannot use the Hillary excuse any longer.

I do agree with you up to a point. When Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall, that was ridiculous. He promised to release his income tax returns and has not done so. So yes, he has lied. I would just point out that he has not lied to anywhere near the level Obama and Clinton did who lied about dead Americans, and yet liberals turn red in the face about Trump but were strangely silent about Obama and H.C. One thing I nearly always take issue with is inconsistency, and that's what I see at work in your comments.

don't forget this emperor lie . 'I will close GITMO ' .

Tal asylum seekers need to prove they are either the victim of past persecution or fearfuture persecution. In the case of past persecution, you must prove that you were persecuted in your home country or last country of residence.The persecution must have been based on at least one of five grounds, either :


race
religion
nationality
political opinion, or
membership in a particular social group .

THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR ECONOMIC REASONS . The vast majority seeking asylum at the border are there for economic reasons.

I have a good question ? Why aren't the Dems begging us to take in Venezuelan refugees (who are legitimately suffering political persecution ). Maybe because the Venezuelans know the truth about living in a command economy centralized socialist state .

don't forget this emperor lie . 'I will close GITMO ' .

Repubs said no!


Tal asylum seekers need to prove they are either the victim of past persecution or fearfuture persecution. In the case of past persecution, you must prove that you were persecuted in your home country or last country of residence.The persecution must have been based on at least one of five grounds, either :


race
religion
nationality
political opinion, or
membership in a particular social group .

THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR ECONOMIC REASONS . The vast majority seeking asylum at the border are there for economic reasons.

Only going through a humane process can determine that... RIGHT?


I have a good question ? Why aren't the Dems begging us to take in Venezuelan refugees (who are legitimately suffering political persecution ). Maybe because the Venezuelans know the truth about living in a command economy centralized socialist state .

Let me know when the dufus spots a caravan of Venezuelans.

I have a good question ? Why aren't the Dems begging us to take in Venezuelan refugees (who are legitimately suffering political persecution ). Maybe because the Venezuelans know the truth about living in a command economy centralized socialist state .
Tal is right. They're pouring into Colombia, not the US. Should we send buses?

What are you all going on about? Why do you feel the need to prove he (Trump) is a liar and a thief.
SO what! We have an unscrupulous president.


If you think he will ever spend time incarcerated you are as foolish as he.
He will not be Impeached.
The wall is nothing, none of this has to do with building a wall or the money to build it.
Preventing the president from doing his Job is what it's all about.
From day one many of our politician's declared they were not going to do their job thereby preventing our standing President from doing his.


Yes, maybe we should have voted-in the better Politician (liar and thief).
Trump was never a politician, he can't be expected to lie (with the best of them) like a true politician.
Let the Man do his job, he might surprise you.

We said that when Obama was elected so we all should know it doesn't work that way. Stop being a baby hollering foul, and protect your dufus.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tomder55 https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/trumps-border-wall-paid-mexico-842470-11.html#post3830526)
don't forget this emperor lie . 'I will close GITMO ' .



Repubs said no

why didn't he do it by fiat like he did with DACA ?




https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tomder55 https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/trumps-border-wall-paid-mexico-842470-11.html#post3830527)
Tal asylum seekers need to prove they are either the victim of past persecution or fearfuture persecution. In the case of past persecution, you must prove that you were persecuted in your home country or last country of residence.The persecution must have been based on at least one of five grounds, either :



race
religion
nationality
political opinion, or
membership in a particular social group .


THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR ECONOMIC REASONS . The vast majority seeking asylum at the border are there for economic reasons.



Only going through a humane process can determine that... RIGHT?

There is a humane process . It is called applying for asylum in your own country with the US embassy .




https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tomder55 https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/trumps-border-wall-paid-mexico-842470-11.html#post3830625)
I have a good question ? Why aren't the Dems begging us to take in Venezuelan refugees (who are legitimately suffering political persecution ). Maybe because the Venezuelans know the truth about living in a command economy centralized socialist state .



Let me know when the dufus spots a caravan of Venezuelans.







I don't see the Dems making any effort to get them asylum status . The same thing happened with Cubans . For years they had a provision to allow them in if they made it to shore . It was called 'wet foot dry foot '. Well the emperor did not want anyone really repressed from a communist state here telling Americans what life is like under socialist oppression so he ended that policy . You see the Cubans had a legitimate claim to asylum ;not the economic one that the Honduran border raiders have .

why didn't he do it by fiat like he did with DACA ?

The fight over Gitmo was a tough battle but but Obama reduced the number of prisioners from 245 to 41, and the dufus so far has removed 1 himself, and the courts held that Obama had the authority to prioritize who he hunted down and deported. Criminals were his priority, and KIDS were not. All done lawfully, humanely and he may not have fully succeeded in his aims, he worked at it, took his lumps and pressed forward, as contrast to this heavy handed style of the dufus who thinks he is an emperor.


There is a humane process . It is called applying for asylum in your own country with the US embassy .


That's just not what the LAW says Tom, https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states


I don't see the Dems making any effort to get them asylum status . The same thing happened with Cubans . For years they had a provision to allow them in if they made it to shore . It was called 'wet foot dry foot '. Well the emperor did not want anyone really repressed from a communist state here telling Americans what life is like under socialist oppression so he ended that policy . You see the Cubans had a legitimate claim to asylum ;not the economic one that the Honduran border raiders have .

I am aware of history, and aware of how the US helped ravage those Central Americans way back in the day. Not that it took that much to tilt the balance of power, nor is it any surprise that the same thing is happening in other countries in the CA. You better watch XI, and Vlad down there.

You want to stop the migration patterns? Deal with the root causes of them. Political wars. Good LUCK with that... bring a big lunch and cancel the golf game tomorrow.

The left never changes ... always blame America first

Big difference between blaming and acknowledging accountability. Hey all the empires of man have the same blood of the vanquished foe on their hands. Some more than others maybe, but same behavior, with very similar outcomes... devastation and death that can last a very long time.

"You break it, you own it", as Colin Powell once said. Is the right in such denial?

Big difference between blaming and acknowledging accountability. Hey all the empires of man have the same blood of the vanquished foe on their hands. Some more than others maybe, but same behavior, with very similar outcomes... devastation and death that can last a very long time.

"You break it, you own it", as Colin Powell once said. Is the right in such denial?

So what is it you want them to own? Afghanistan, it was broken before you came, Iraq, a basket case which you made worse? Libya, yes Obama should own that one and go and fix it with his peace prize in his pocket. Maybe the world is better off now with a little less islamic militancy after the guts have been kicked out of the Muslim Brotherhood, out of Al Qaeda, out of ISIS, but I wonder how much of it was a crisis of your own making, and you are doing it again in Venezeula

I generally think we would do better if we would mind our own business more frequently. Still, after 9/11 we had to do something. Did we do the right something? In large measure yes, but I do understand that people can have other opinions about it.

We are still our own worst enemy. 22 tril in debt (half of it under the Obama admin), the insane idea that wind and solar can supply our energy needs, the thinking that increased government spending will grow the economy, and a growing belief that taxing the rich can solve all our problems will do us in faster than any foreign enemy.

I generally think we would do better if we would mind our own business more frequently. Still, after 9/11 we had to do something. Did we do the right something? In large measure yes, but I do understand that people can have other opinions about it.

We are still our own worst enemy. 22 tril in debt (half of it under the Obama admin), the insane idea that wind and solar can supply our energy needs, the thinking that increased government spending will grow the economy, and a growing belief that taxing the rich can solve all our problems will do us in faster than any foreign enemy.

Yes you had to do something but you lashed out on al qaeda and go rid of their bases but you didn't identify your true enemy and became a lackey of Saudi and Israeli aggression and pursuing regime change in the ME has you embroilled in ongoing tribal wars

If anybody is going to take advantage of Venezuela it will be the United States, Not China.
The US Placed Saddam in power, who else can pull him from power.

I agree, the US lost sight of the Ball. We are Screww-uuu-uuwwdd (and so are you ;-P)!

ENJOY.

We don't need to worry about foreign powers. Our own lack of discipline (22 tril in debt) is our greatest enemy.

If anybody is going to take advantage of Venezuela it will be the United States, Not China.
The US Placed Saddam in power, who else can pull him from power.

I agree, the US lost sight of the Ball. We are Screww-uuu-uuwwdd (and so are you ;-P)!

ENJOY.



Yes indeed that is what the US excels at taking advantage and creating situations of disadvantage

Yes indeed that is what the US excels at taking advantage and creating situations of disadvantage

What a statement. Saved the world in World Wars 1 and 2. Rebuilt the world with the Marshall plan. Single-handedly props up the United Nations. Gives more to foreign aid than probably the next 10 nations combined. Yeah, we sure take advantage of people.

What a statement. Saved the world in World Wars 1 and 2. Rebuilt the world with the Marshall plan. Single-handedly props up the United Nations. Gives more to foreign aid than probably the next 10 nations combined. Yeah, we sure take advantage of people.
You won world war 1, what a stretch, you won world war 2, with out Russia kicking Hitlers but it would have taken longer and maybe you could have unleashed mass murder in Europe since your saturation bombing couldn't get the job done. Don't think propping up the UN is doing us any favours. Tied foreign aid isn't aid it is keeping jobs in the US disquised as aid, if any of it actually gets out of the US. Remember aid to Haiti? You need to get a new song because that one is getting very tired

When I read your comments, I am reminded of the old saying which goes, "No good deed goes unpunished." I'm not saying we have sprouted angel wings, but anytime a natural disaster occurs anywhere in the world, both public and private funds are sent pouring out of the U.S. Most of our foreign aid is tied to nothing. And yeah, if the U.S. had not entered WW 1, the Germans would have won.

I'm Not sure about the First World War.
As Far as the Second World War; Only until America Entered WWII was it decided.

I'm Not sure about the First World War.
As Far as the Second World War; Only until America Entered WWII was it decided

Fair enough statement.

When I read your comments, I am reminded of the old saying which goes, "No good deed goes unpunished." I'm not saying we have sprouted angel wings, but anytime a natural disaster occurs anywhere in the world, both public and private funds are sent pouring out of the U.S. Most of our foreign aid is tied to nothing. And yeah, if the U.S. had not entered WW 1, the Germans would have won.
No the germans would not have won Russia denied them vital oil supplies, it would just have taken longer and Europe would have been conquered by Russia I grant your achievement in the Pacific which might have been quicker if you were not preoccupied with Hitler

I'm as America first as you can get . The war in Europe was won by Russia with our assistance . The Battle of Stalingrad was the deciding factor in the war ;not the Normandy Invasion on D Day. The real deciding factor was the Russian T 34 tank . The Soviets suffered 20x the number of casualties as the US ;and we "let them take Berlin. " which cost them 30,000 casualties . Actually the deciding battle was Russia v Japan at
Khalkhyn Gol where the greatest General in the war ,General
Georgi Zhukov defeated the Japanese (which caused the Japanese to look South for an empire eventually taking on the US) . He also led the defense of Moscow and Leningrad

If not for the United States, Germany would have won the Battle of the Atlantic and taken the Brits out of the war. That would have allowed the Germans to point everything at the Soviets.

80 % of the German forces were deployed in Russia . Bigger than the Battle of the Atlantic was the Lend Lease program that helped the Russians survive the early onslaught. General Zukov could very well be the most under rated General in history . He totally annihilated the Japanese at
Khalkhyn Gol and then came West to defeat the Germans The Russian counter offensive began in the winter of 1941 ;a year before we entered the war . Zukov executed a double envelopment of the Germans . By D day the Germans had been pushed out of Russia and were being pushed out of Eastern Europe.

Never mind, it is always johnny~come~lately who claims victory. The US was lucky not to be annihilated at Normandy, Had Hitler committed the panzer reserves the situation may have been very different and if the Germans had not have made the mistake of invading Russia it is doubtful a successful invasion could have been mounted

General Zukov could very well be the most under rated General in history .


Hitler was the best general the Allies had.

Hitler was the best general the Allies had.

Very true.

Hitler was the best general the Allies had.

Agreed, without him, who knows. In the same way Trump is the best general both Kim and Xi have

Agreed, without him, who knows. In the same way Trump is the best general both Kim and Xi have

And Vlad.

Yes let us not forget Vlad.

The dufus will submit his budget next week. What a great battle that should be.

The dufus will submit his budget next week. What a great battle that should be.

He seems obscessed with the wall, wanting to rip money out of other programs to build the wall. Fancy wanting a legacy that is miles of rusting steel posts. He just cannot resolve the difference between rhetoric and reality. This will be know as the days of Donald the Destroyer

Or, viewed another way, the legacy of a secure southern border.

The southern border emergency would be easily solved by a humane process that addresses people as humans and not some boogie man for right wing talking points for votes. The bigger more emergency problem is WHY they migrate in such great numbers[?'. Of course the loony right predicates this on a fear of scared desperate brown people, so their policies reflect that unchristian fear, and they rally around the unchristian path a lying cheating dufus guides them too.

You want security on the southern border? Seems you would cooperate with Mexico, and get a shared humane process. They may not pay for a big beautiful wall, but may just engage in humane food, water, shelter, and processing that benefits BOTH counties, and the flow of humans running from DEATH.

That's a start.

You are correct, the problem lies far to the south outside your borders and short of an invasion of central america all you can hope to do is force an orderly migration process and strangely enough a wall has been part of thinking on this for a long time. Instead of wanting Mexico to pay, Trump should have reversed the thought and helped Mexico to stem the flow, but NO! He instead tried to make things harder for Mexico by revising NAFTA.

Perhaps you should take a leaf out of someone else's book and create a greater American prosperity zone, so that prospertity doesn't just exist north of the Tropic

The southern border emergency would be easily solved by a humane process that addresses people as humans and not some boogie man for right wing talking points for votes.

What are you suggesting?


Perhaps you should take a leaf out of someone else's book and create a greater American prosperity zone, so that prospertity doesn't just exist north of the Tropic

We had NAFTA and the river of illegal immigration just continued.

Build the wall. It will work.

We had NAFTA and the river of illegal immigration just continued.

Build the wall. It will work.

Yes because NAFTA didn't address a problem in any place but Mexico and was fairly limited attracting people to the border regions and they just kept going. They didn't understand the industries had moved south and didn't really employ many because of modern techniques. The point is; people aren't really needed in large numbers in a modern economy, but that message hasn't been preached.

Building a wall is just more socialist pump priming, great for the steel industry, great for border states employment for a while but very alienating in some places