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jlisenbe
Mar 11, 2019, 06:15 AM
Yes because NAFTA didn't address a problem in any place but Mexico

OK. And where are the great majority of illegal immigrants coming from? Mexico.

Besides all that, it is not our job to solve the problems of other nations. We send tens of billions of dollars to other nations in foreign aid only to be told we must do more. Build the wall. Protect the border and protect Americans first.

Socialist pump priming? That's a strange statement. It's the dems that are promoting socialism.

Wondergirl
Mar 11, 2019, 08:54 AM
Build the wall. Protect the border and protect Americans first.
And build a wall on our northern border too. The flood of fentanyl and other opioids coming into the US is massive!

jlisenbe
Mar 11, 2019, 10:03 AM
From the north?? I don't think so. Besides, I'm more concerned with the flood of illegal immigrants, and that is almost completely a southern border problem.

Wondergirl
Mar 11, 2019, 10:27 AM
From the north?? I don't think so. Besides, I'm more concerned with the flood of illegal immigrants, and that is almost completely a southern border problem.
Yes, from Canada. It's a much worse invasion that what's supposedly crossing our southern border (mostly poor people seeking better jobs, e.g., harvesting our crops). China sends fentanyl to Canadian drug dealers who then push it into the US. Haven't you read about the growing opioid addiction in this country? Guess why it's growing....

jlisenbe
Mar 11, 2019, 11:15 AM
So the answer to the Canada problem is to NOT build a southern wall? No, I don't think so. Let's stop the southern avalanche. We have a plan for that.

Besides, according to the link below, "Nearly all fentanyl sold on the streets of America enters the country through international mail. (https://www.statnews.com/2018/01/24/china-fentanyl-usps/) In early 2018, a Senate investigation discovered the government simply was not prepared to stop the influx of fentanyl from China. The report, which scrutinized six online fentanyl sellers, found that five operated in China; the location of one seller could not be established. These particular vendors mailed hundreds of packages of fentanyl to over 300 people in the U.S. relying on the U.S. Postal Service (USPS) to send millions of dollars’ worth of fentanyl overseas."

So how are you getting your Canada connection if most of it comes through U.S. mail??

https://fherehab.com/news/where-does-fentanyl-come-from

talaniman
Mar 11, 2019, 12:34 PM
A wall won't stop that dope mail, nor stop migrants coming from central America lawfully, or unlawfully.

jlisenbe
Mar 11, 2019, 03:00 PM
A wall won't stop that dope mail, nor stop migrants coming from central America lawfully, or unlawfully.

Well of course it won't stop the mail. No one has said it will. It will slow down the current river of illegal immigration to a mere trickle. I would be overjoyed with that.

paraclete
Mar 11, 2019, 03:03 PM
And how does this address the millions already there?

talaniman
Mar 11, 2019, 03:22 PM
Well of course it won't stop the mail. No one has said it will. It will slow down the current river of illegal immigration to a mere trickle. I would be overjoyed with that.

Not without effectively addressing the ROOT cause of the so called migration issue, and the mitigating Mexican cooperation in that effort. Without those the border wall in the southern border is a huge waste of time and OUR money.


And how does this address the millions already there?

No solution has been found yet, mostly because of the huge financially crippling logistical challenge finding people who have noo desire to be found, and have many friends, relatives and supporters on their side. I believe that those factors far outway the ones who think they need a gestapo squad to solve that issue.

paraclete
Mar 11, 2019, 06:08 PM
No solution has been found yet, mostly because of the huge financially crippling logistical challenge finding people who have noo desire to be found, and have many friends, relatives and supporters on their side. I believe that those factors far outway the ones who think they need a gestapo squad to solve that issue.

So surely the answer lies in amnesty and a path to citizenship, a one off you might say, so that you don't have to hunt down anyone but criminals

jlisenbe
Mar 11, 2019, 07:23 PM
So surely the answer lies in amnesty and a path to citizenship, a one off you might say, so that you don't have to hunt down anyone but criminals

Yeah. We can reward those who came in illegally. That would be the right thing to do.

Amnesty and a green card, yes. Path to citizenship? No way.

paraclete
Mar 11, 2019, 08:56 PM
Yeah. We can reward those who came in illegally. That would be the right thing to do.

Amnesty and a green card, yes. Path to citizenship? No way.

Why, once they are legally contributing to the nation, you could place some limits on it, such as 10 years residency after a certain date, no convictions, etc

Not suggesting you reward them, just recognise the inevietable. Look, some want to legalise drugs to solve a problem, is this different? take away the angst and put resources to something more productive. Protecting the border instead of chasing illegals all over the country, no more need for sanctuarys

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 04:45 AM
Why, once they are legally contributing to the nation, you could place some limits on it, such as 10 years residency after a certain date, no convictions, etc.

That could at least be a starting point for discussion. I'll grant you that. One thing is for sure is those people are not going to leave and we have no means to kick them out, so we need to come to some settlement. In the meantime, build the wall so we don't allow a big problem to become even bigger.

paraclete
Mar 12, 2019, 05:37 AM
That could at least be a starting point for discussion. I'll grant you that. One thing is for sure is those people are not going to leave and we have no means to kick them out, so we need to come to some settlement. In the meantime, build the wall so we don't allow a big problem to become even bigger.

Yes but half your country doesn't believe in it or won't allow Trump to have any sort of victory, so time for Plan B.

Sometimes you have to think bigger to solve a problem, pay Mexico to police the border, they are never going to pay for a wall but changing the game might achieve the objective

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 05:40 AM
I'm all for plan B so long as the "B" stands for Build the wall.

talaniman
Mar 12, 2019, 08:06 AM
Plan A should have been a humane process for men women and children that is both comprehensive and efficient. God might be watching.

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 08:58 AM
It's always easy to be humane and caring when you are using someone else's money.

talaniman
Mar 12, 2019, 09:11 AM
We are using OUR money. Lawfully and legally collected as tax as per our Constitution by OUR government, feckless and incompetent though it may be.

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 10:47 AM
Well, if you are talking about using OUR money, then I would prefer to use OUR money to build the wall. We are already spending all kinds of money for "humane" causes so let's spend some on what will work, which is a wall.

Wondergirl
Mar 12, 2019, 10:51 AM
let's spend some on what will work, which is a wall.
But it WON'T work!!!!!!!

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 10:59 AM
Well, walls work everywhere else, so I have no idea why we would not try this. It can't be any worse than what we are doing now.

talaniman
Mar 12, 2019, 11:22 AM
Like where do they work?

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 11:31 AM
Every prison in the world. Every gated community in America. The Vatican. The White House. The 75 miles currently on the southern border. Iran, Pakistan, India, Brunei, China, Thailand, Austria, Greece, and Hungary have all built or are building border walls.

Do they work perfectly? Of course not. Nothing does, but if someone escapes from jail, we don't just go in and tear down the walls.

Better question. Tell me where they DON'T work.

Wondergirl
Mar 12, 2019, 02:42 PM
Where they DON'T work:

Every prison in the world.
Every gated community in America.
The Vatican.
The White House.
The 75 miles currently on the southern border.
Iran, Pakistan, India, Brunei, China, Thailand, Austria, Greece, and Hungary
The Great Wall of China
Hadrian's Wall in England
The Western Wall
The Berlin Wall
Etc.

jlisenbe
Mar 12, 2019, 03:19 PM
WG, you can't be serious. To suggest that a wall does not work because the occasional person manages to breach it is on the level of saying I will no longer lock my front door at night because locked doors don't stop everyone. Nothing works all the time, but it is better to build a wall, if for no other reason, to at least make the enemy put out much greater effort to cross it, and thereby know that you will be, not perfectly safe, but much safer than you would have been otherwise.

We can have two plans for a prison. Plan A is to build a wall knowing that someone might get out. Plan B is to build no wall and know that EVERYONE will get out.

I think I'll go with Plan A.

paraclete
Mar 12, 2019, 04:15 PM
You want your borderl to be 100% effective, you are going to have to kill someone. The idea of a wall is to avoid killing

tomder55
Mar 13, 2019, 02:12 PM
so the idea is that if it is not 100% effective ,it should not be tried ? What a silly argument . I can assure you no one unauthorized crosses the Azerbaijan Baku border with Russia .

Wondergirl
Mar 13, 2019, 02:21 PM
WG, you can't be serious.
I surely hope you aren't. There are so many other, better ways to secure our southern border and control who tries to cross it. This is 2019, not the Middle Ages.

jlisenbe
Mar 13, 2019, 02:40 PM
I surely hope you aren't. There are so many other, better ways to secure our southern border and control who tries to cross it. This is 2019, not the Middle Ages.

I can't think of anything better than a wall.

paraclete
Mar 13, 2019, 03:28 PM
so the idea is that if it is not 100% effective ,it should not be tried ? What a silly argument . I can assure you no one unauthorized crosses the Azerbaijan Baku border with Russia .

Now if you had a short border and snow capped mountains your border may be more effective. I think it comes down to what happens to you if you are caught

Wondergirl
Mar 13, 2019, 03:46 PM
I can't think of anything better than a wall.
It can be gone over, under, and around.

Also, it would block migrating animals, family get-togethers, and business efforts. And building it on US land would prevent our access to and use of the Rio Grande.

jlisenbe
Mar 13, 2019, 05:21 PM
Also, it would block migrating animals, family get-togethers, and business efforts. And building it on US land would prevent our access to and use of the Rio Grande.

Just as prison walls allow for controlled access into and out of the prison, I think we can come up with a wall that would do the same, as opposed to the current situation of uncontrolled entrance resulting in hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants each year. Now as for all those many thousands of family get-togethers in the middle of nowhere next to the river, I guess we might lose some of those.

Face it. If Obama had suggested a wall, you would be all for it. The problem with the wall is the fact that Trump came up with the idea.

Wondergirl
Mar 13, 2019, 07:06 PM
Just as prison walls allow for controlled access into and out of the prison, I think we can come up with a wall that would do the same, as opposed to the current situation of uncontrolled entrance resulting in hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants each year. Now as for all those many thousands of family get-togethers in the middle of nowhere next to the river, I guess we might lose some of those.

Face it. If Obama had suggested a wall, you would be all for it. The problem with the wall is the fact that Trump came up with the idea.
My opinion would be the same no matter WHO thinks it's a good idea. It's a STUPID idea.

Putting a wall down there will keep us in (like the prisons you are so fond of mentioning), and will not keep "them" out. Oh, and where do you plan to build that wall -- on the US side of the river????

A wall can be gotten under, over, and around. (Ask those prisoners you write about.) And there are always boats. Maybe "they" will begin to land in Mississippi, and that state can build a wall.

talaniman
Mar 13, 2019, 07:45 PM
I can't think of anything better than a wall.

If you can't think of a better idea than the dufus, you're in big trouble.


so the idea is that if it is not 100% effective ,it should not be tried ? What a silly argument . I can assure you no one unauthorized crosses the Azerbaijan Baku border with Russia .

They don't have a wall, they have a barbed wire fence, with sensors, and shoot to kill guards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan–Russia_border

paraclete
Mar 13, 2019, 08:05 PM
Let's clarify this before it gets ridiculous, a wall has been part of planning for years, it is not an exclusive Trump idea, in fact, Trump doesn't appear to have original ideas. He uses hyperbole, exaggeration, to make a point.

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 04:11 AM
They don't have a wall, they have a barbed wire fence, with sensors, and shoot to kill guards

So you're saying that's what we should do on our southern border?

paraclete
Mar 14, 2019, 04:46 AM
So you're saying that's what we should do on our southern border?

As I said, until you shoot someone, you don't have an eppective Border

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 04:52 AM
Let's do the humane thing. Build the wall.

talaniman
Mar 14, 2019, 06:19 AM
We have a barrier, we just need an effective humane way to process them. Amazing how we dealt with migration for generations, and now we seem to have forgotten. Save the building for schools, roads, and a brand new power grid that serves us through THIS century.

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 06:26 AM
If we have a barrier, it is the most ineffective, porous barrier imaginable. The prediction is for close to a million illegal crossings just this year alone.

Why on earth do we need a brand new power grid? And do you really think the 10 bil projected for the wall will build all the roads and schools we need?

Build the wall. Get on with it.

talaniman
Mar 14, 2019, 07:42 AM
Priorities dude. Most of us are not threatened by brown people fleeing bad situations, but our kids and grandkids have needs to be addressed. They deserve the best we can give them and a start on better things. Your wall is but a distraction from THAT priority.

Like the dufus will be happy with 10 billion bucks even after repubs deficit trillion dollar tax cuts for the rich. He will keep coming back for more and we BOTH know that.

Wondergirl
Mar 14, 2019, 10:11 AM
The prediction is for close to a million illegal crossings just this year alone.

Build the wall. Get on with it.
Fact: 396,579 people were caught illegally crossing the border in the year ending September 30, 2018.
Source: U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration/fy-2018)

Hard to believe it will be a million. And illegal immigrants pay taxes but don't get government help.

Fact: Two-thirds of the recent unauthorized immigrant population entered the U.S. on valid visas, then stayed in the country after that visa expired.
Source: Center for Migration Studies (http://cmsny.org/warren-overstays-undocumented-decline/)

talaniman
Mar 14, 2019, 11:04 AM
Build the wall. Get on with it.

You do understand such a project would take YEARS, even if you had the votes in congress... which OBVIOUSLY you don't. Even repubs have doubts about the Dufus plan.

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 11:41 AM
Hard to believe it will be a million. And illegal immigrants pay taxes but don't get government help.

Their children certainly get benefits. They are also eligible for workmen's comp, emergency med care, and WIC benefits.

Suppose it is merely half a million. Is that supposed to make us feel better?

talaniman
Mar 14, 2019, 01:16 PM
Can you verify what you say are facts? The guidelines for those benefits are fairly strict for eligibility, and necessary for CHILDREN. You do have to sign up for them so how illegal can the parents be?

How does your wall address the flaws in our system?

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 01:29 PM
"The law includes important exceptions for certain types of services. Regardless of their status, not-qualified immigrants are eligible for emergency Medicaid if they are otherwise eligible for their state’s Medicaid program. The law does not restrict access to public health programs that provide immunizations and/or treatment of communicable disease symptoms (whether or not those symptoms are caused by such a disease). School breakfast and lunch programs remain open to all children regardless of immigration status, and every state has opted to provide access to the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)."

The children can certainly attend public schools.

https://www.nilc.org/issues/economic-support/overview-immeligfedprograms/

As to the workman's comp, that is evidently a state by state decision. Many states allow illegals to get WC.

How does the wall address flaws? It prevents illegal immigrants from simply strolling across the border. I would say that's about the biggest, largest, most humongous flaw in the system.

talaniman
Mar 14, 2019, 01:56 PM
You don't need a wall for that, just adequate processing system to deal with the bottleneck of people at points of entry, and a walk through southern deserts is hardly a stroll. It's a very dangerous life threatening journey.

All kids in OUR country should be in a school, fed well, taken care of, and immunized against disease. Legal or not!

Wondergirl
Mar 14, 2019, 01:59 PM
Those illegal immigrants will pick your crops, reroof your house, build your garage, and even wipe your butt in the nursing home. And for how much per hour????

paraclete
Mar 14, 2019, 02:33 PM
Are we talking minimum wage now?

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 02:53 PM
Build the wall. Let them enter legally with a green card. They can work all they want.

I'm all for these immigrants. Sometimes I think they are more American than a lot of people who were born here. They work hard, but they are ILLEGALLY in the country. For those of us who actually believe in the rule of law, that is not a good thing.

I think the ONLY reason the average democrat politician is for a blanket amnesty is that they see a potential new voting block. They don't care about these people. They talk a lot, but if you look at what they have done personally, with their own money (of which they typically have a lot), they have done nothing.

Wondergirl
Mar 14, 2019, 03:20 PM
I think the ONLY reason the average democrat politician is for a blanket amnesty is that they see a potential new voting block. They don't care about these people. They talk a lot, but if you look at what they have done personally, with their own money (of which they typically have a lot), they have done nothing.
Now, let's talk about Republican voting blocs and what they promised. Republican politicians don't care about these people. They talk a lot, but if you look at what they have done personally, with their own money (of which they typically have a lot), they have done nothing.

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 07:19 PM
Now, let's talk about Republican voting blocs and what they are promised. Republican politicians don't care about these people. They talk a lot, but if you look at what they have done personally, with their own money (of which they typically have a lot), they have done nothing.

We were promised a wall. Trump is fighting for a wall. We were promised Supreme Court justices who believe in the Constitution. Trump is fighting for that. He is pro-life and pro-Israel. The one great area he is missing is in balancing the budget.

Still, your comment is a somewhat fair one. Most politicians seem most interested in being re-elected.

Wondergirl
Mar 14, 2019, 07:32 PM
Still, your comment is a somewhat fair one. Most politicians seem most interested in being re-elected.
I simply stole your words and switched party names.

jlisenbe
Mar 14, 2019, 08:13 PM
I simply stole your words and switched party names.

I understood that. My reply was to illustrate I don't completely agree with you. It is not typically repubs that love to illustrate their charitable inclinations by spending the money of other people.

Wondergirl
Mar 15, 2019, 11:29 AM
I understood that. My reply was to illustrate I don't completely agree with you. It is not typically repubs that love to illustrate their charitable inclinations by spending the money of other people.
No. The repubs hoard their money and buy fun stuff like islands and planes (to fly to their islands) and college admissions for their kids.

jlisenbe
Mar 15, 2019, 12:07 PM
No. The repubs hoard their money and buy fun stuff like islands and planes (to fly to their islands) and college admissions for their kids.

First of all, if it's their money, then why would it be your business or my business what they do with it? Second, if anyone really believes that the typical Republican owns an island and an airplane (and of course you really don't believe that), then he/she need to seek help immediately. I know a lot of republicans, and I can say that none of them owns an island or an airplane. Most of them, like me and I imagine you, drive a several years old car and have worked their entire life to accumulate what they have. For that reason, they (and I) dislike the tendency of liberals to want to spend our money in order to demonstrate their charitable superiority.

Wondergirl
Mar 15, 2019, 12:57 PM
Typical Republican? Where did "typical" come from?

tomder55
Mar 15, 2019, 01:00 PM
No. The repubs hoard their money and buy fun stuff like islands and planes (to fly to their islands) and college admissions for their kids. actually that would be liberal hollywierdo elites . Did anyone catch the irony of Elizbeth Warren saying she had zero sympathy for the cheaters ? You would think she would have at least 1/1024 sympathy .

jlisenbe
Mar 15, 2019, 01:02 PM
Typical Republican? Where did "typical" come from?

Typical. You know, sort of like "average" or "one who is a representative example". Kind of like what you meant when you said repubs have airplanes so they can fly to their private islands. If that is not what you meant, then your writing needs to become much more exact.

I hope you realize that some of what I write is in jest, such as you needing to be more exact. Unfortunately, there are no smiley faces we can attach to our posts to make that an obvious thing.

talaniman
Mar 16, 2019, 10:29 AM
They had to delay sentencing for Gates and Flynn AGAIN because they aren't through cooperating.

jlisenbe
Mar 16, 2019, 03:55 PM
"Cooperating" as in saying anything and everything in order to get a lighter sentence.

After all this, two years of spending multiple millions of dollars and Maxine Waters practically developing heart disease, there is nothing to indicate collusion with Russia, so now they have to start investigating anyone and anything that even smells like it might be sufficient to bring the hated Trump down. What a sorry spectacle of a once respectable democracy.

paraclete
Mar 16, 2019, 04:25 PM
Yes a sorry spectacle

talaniman
Mar 16, 2019, 05:16 PM
If repubs, who spent millions investigating Hillary, after a bi partisan report that was enacted, had done their oversight DUTY, we wouldn't be here. While I concede that cheating is not a good thing, the dufus is caught cheating and he tried to cover it up, unlike the leach Bill who all they caught him on is CHEAING on Hillary. He paid the cost of impeachment, and just on that so must the dufus!

Fair is fair, and let the chips fall where they fall! The Clinton investigation costs MILLIONS, and all you got was lying about a BJ.

jlisenbe
Mar 16, 2019, 06:20 PM
If repubs, who spent millions investigating Hillary, after a bi partisan report that was enacted, had done their oversight DUTY, we wouldn't be here. While I concede that cheating is not a good thing, the dufus is caught cheating and he tried to cover it up, unlike the leach Bill who all they caught him on is CHEAING on Hillary. He paid the cost of impeachment, and just on that so must the dufus!

I have no idea what you are talking about. BC was not brought up for impeachment for cheating on his wife, but for lying to a grand jury.

talaniman
Mar 17, 2019, 06:52 AM
About cheating on his wife.

tomder55
Mar 17, 2019, 10:07 AM
if cheating on his wife means perjury to a Grand Jury regarding the sexual harassment of Paula Jones ;and
the nature and details of his relationship with Monica Lewinsky , a subordinate Government employee
…….the perjury related to Federal civil rights cases against him in the matter....the numerous attempted cover up including suborning perjury and witness tampering ,then yes it was about cheating on his wife.

tomder55
Mar 17, 2019, 01:48 PM
https://www.westernjournal.com/president-trump-quietly-signs-largest-wilderness-preservation-bill-decade/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=rightalertsfacebook&utm_campaign=ttp&utm_content=2019-03-15&fbclid=IwAR0AH8-JstAt_pp-MMPihs6KD3EAHmdcuGnVsMVa_B5gc4VRKcSTNWd5kJY

talaniman
Mar 17, 2019, 02:07 PM
Good for the goose..

paraclete
Mar 17, 2019, 08:10 PM
Which goose is that, seems to be a lot of them

talaniman
Mar 18, 2019, 05:16 AM
Way back in the day the right investigated the Clintons every business action and found only his lying about his dalliances. Now history repeats itself somewhat, so seems fitting and proper the dufus endure the same scrutiny, but the right calls it a deep state conspiracy, strangely reminiscent of the right wing conspiracy talk of the Clinton era. It's like a remake of an old story playing out for this generation.

A made for cable mini series of drama and intrigue in the highest level of government. The dufus is the star and revels in his fan base, while his critics (ME) find his character and intent bereft of any good orderly direction, and has crossed the lines of good behavior many times. Still though it's but a fascinating distraction for the real world lack of good governing required to achieve a good path forward for the country.

The right loves his show though, and until they don't chances are it won't be cancelled any time soon.

tomder55
Mar 18, 2019, 10:54 AM
dalliances ? I guess Bubba is the big exception to the me too movement .
Shameful apologizing if you ask me .

talaniman
Mar 18, 2019, 11:00 AM
Whatever we call it it's cheating with a chick on the side. MeToo wasn't invented and hardly practiced, but times have certainly changed as women are standing their ground and speaking out. I offer no apologies for men who get caught with there pants down. The differnce between the two presidents was that Clinton actually testified about his trists before a grand jury.

Love to see that happen NOW.

paraclete
Mar 18, 2019, 01:44 PM
Love to see that happen NOW.

Clinton did it while in office, whatever Trump did has nothing to do with his office. What you want to do is convict a man for protecting his reputation

Wondergirl
Mar 18, 2019, 02:03 PM
What you want to do is convict a man for protecting his reputation
Reputation for what?

talaniman
Mar 18, 2019, 02:21 PM
Clinton did it while in office, whatever Trump did has nothing to do with his office. What you want to do is convict a man for protecting his reputation

It has everything to do with his office since, while true it was done before he got elected, the cover up, or using your words, protecting his reputation, was done while he sought that office. I mean the guy has been married and divorced a few times and had many cuties on his arm in between. I get maybe the wife didn't know but after the locker room talk tape came out, and the women he allegedly assaulted, what reputation was he protecting? One is suing him in court NOW!

He also has a reputation for LYING profusely and insulting everybody. If he wanted to protect his reputation he would own his actions and show contrition. We have seen none of that. So what else is he protecting? You don't know.

Like WG asks...a reputation for WHAT?

paraclete
Mar 18, 2019, 02:24 PM
If he wanted to protect his reputation he would own his actions and show contrition. We have seen none of that. So what else is he protecting? You don't know.

I don't know and I don't care. Your electorate made the mistake of electing him, whatever baggage he comes with is what you get but then you love gossip, love to dig the dirt. Maybe he sees nothing wrong in what he has done, he is a man of his society

talaniman
Mar 18, 2019, 02:40 PM
Totally agree! We got what we deserve no doubt. That's why we have elections though and another looms as we speak. Hopefully we can unpack some of the baggage and make an INFORMED choice.

waltero
Mar 18, 2019, 03:04 PM
"informed choice", Like that is ever going to happen!
Lets get Hillary back on the Ballot, she's a strait shooter.


If only the Dems wouldn't have got sucked into playing Trumps game.
This reality show has just begun, lets see if anybody can outplay the game master.


My Favorite part was when all the Trump haters started balling followed by utter-hatred...entertainment at its finest.

jlisenbe
Mar 18, 2019, 03:33 PM
The amazing part to me is how the liberal dems were perfectly happy with Obama and Clinton, both of whom have lied repeatedly, and then want to be the "holier than thou" crowd with Trump. Come on. If you want to be outraged about unethical behavior, at least try to look a little bit consistent.

talaniman
Mar 18, 2019, 04:26 PM
Just speaking for myself I have consistently blasted the dufus. I hate bullies, LIARS, and cheaters. He is all those things and a PUNK for talking ill of the dead.

Wondergirl
Mar 18, 2019, 04:35 PM
He is all those things and a PUNK for talking ill of the dead.
...and the disabled and non-white people and women and LGBTQ persons and....

jlisenbe
Mar 18, 2019, 05:20 PM
Just speaking for myself I have consistently blasted the dufus. I hate bullies, LIARS, and cheaters.

Unless, of course, they are named Clinton or Obama.

paraclete
Mar 18, 2019, 10:15 PM
Well we could also speak of Bush and his associates

talaniman
Mar 19, 2019, 03:35 AM
I suppose we cannot help who we like.

jlisenbe
Mar 19, 2019, 03:54 AM
I suppose we cannot help who we like.

It all comes down to policies. I support Trump's policies (for the most part) and you supported Obama's. They are both guilty of lying, so that is not the difference maker. It's the policies.

tomder55
Mar 22, 2019, 04:21 PM
and he plagerized his critique of McCain ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwLt4XE1i2s

talaniman
Mar 22, 2019, 06:46 PM
The attack on McCain is a simple distraction, as his MO is to change the subject when he doesn't like the conversation about him.

paraclete
Mar 30, 2019, 05:43 PM
Trump has an injection into his wall, not from Mexico, but from the Pentagon. Apparently, there must be a military necessity, or is it emergency, to stop the flood of foreigners across the border to leach off the overinflated budget deficit. Come on, Tal, you surely don't want Trump to have to stop foreign aid so he can feed the millions already in your own land

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKYEE1-U_tc

talaniman
Mar 31, 2019, 04:57 AM
The Dufus's emergency is an overblown lie like everything else he says. That's why half the country didn't vote for him, and even more think he is a crook.

paraclete
Mar 31, 2019, 05:12 AM
The Dufus's emergency is an overblown lie like everything else he says. That's why half the country didn't vote for him, and even more think he is a crook.

Your lies are just as bad, half the country wouldn't vote for any Repelican no matter who he is, just as half the country wouldn't vote for any Demonrat. The country is balanced on a knife edge when it comes to votes for the Presidency and the only thing that makes any difference is the electoral college.

jlisenbe
Mar 31, 2019, 05:36 AM
There is an emergency and has been for years. Build the wall.

talaniman
Mar 31, 2019, 04:24 PM
The emergency is incompetence and inefficient government that no wall can fix.

paraclete
Mar 31, 2019, 04:28 PM
The emergency is incompetence and inefficient government that no wall can fix.

Undoubtedly, but it didn't start with Trump, and it won't end there. You need to get rid of the inefficient form of governance which relies on influence peddling and corruption

jlisenbe
Mar 31, 2019, 04:55 PM
You cannot patrol a thousand miles of border on foot. If we haven't learned anything else, we've learned that. I'm sure the government could be more efficient and competent, but a wall is the only solution I have heard of that stands a good chance of working.

Wondergirl
Mar 31, 2019, 04:57 PM
You cannot patrol a thousand miles of border on foot. If we haven't learned anything else, we've learned that. I'm sure the government could be more efficient and competent, but a wall is the only solution I have heard of that stands a good chance of working.
This is 2019. Technology rules!

And on which side of the river will you build that wall? We'll cut off our nose to spite our face?

talaniman
Mar 31, 2019, 05:21 PM
Undoubtedly, but it didn't start with Trump, and it won't end there. You need to get rid of the inefficient form of governance which relies on influence peddling and corruption

I can't argue with the effects of Mo'Money on the elected officials.


You cannot patrol a thousand miles of border on foot. If we haven't learned anything else, we've learned that. I'm sure the government could be more efficient and competent, but a wall is the only solution I have heard of that stands a good chance of working.

So we won't need all those humans patrolling our border? What about under and over it?


This is 2019. Technology rules!

And on which side of the river will you build that wall? We'll cut off our nose to spite our face?

An electronic wall!

jlisenbe
Mar 31, 2019, 05:38 PM
So we won't need all those humans patrolling our border? What about under and over it?

What they are doing now without a wall is plainly not working. With a wall, they will have a much better chance.

As to an electronic wall, go check on the prisons and jails and see how many of them are using an electronic wall. It's just a pipedream.

Wondergirl
Mar 31, 2019, 05:43 PM
What they are doing now without a wall is plainly now working. With a wall, they will have a much better chance.
Yes, it's plainly now working! Chance at what? On which side of the river would this wall be?

jlisenbe
Mar 31, 2019, 06:26 PM
Yes, it's plainly now working! With hundreds of thousands of illegal crossings a year, I don't know how you can regard that as working.


Chance at what? Reducing the numbers to merely thousands rather than hundreds of thousands.


On which side of the river would this wall be? It would have to be our side. There are presently walls and fences at various points. Which side are they built on?

Wondergirl
Mar 31, 2019, 06:36 PM
Yes, it's plainly now working!

With hundreds of thousands of illegal crossings a year, I don't know how you can regard that as working.
That's what YOU said.


It would have to be our side. There are presently walls and fences at various points. Which side are they built on?
What about the river? Why would we block ourselves off from that very important waterway?

paraclete
Mar 31, 2019, 06:43 PM
That's what YOU said.


What about the river? Why would we block ourselves off from that very important waterway?

If it were me I would build it up the centre of the river, has advantages like no tunnels and much more difficulty in getting to it and climbing it, also less eminent domain issues but then maybe I don't know the terrain but building it back from the river is just inviting people to cross

jlisenbe
Mar 31, 2019, 06:45 PM
Whoops. That "now" should have been "not". Good catch.


What about the river? Why would we block ourselves off from that very important waterway?

Gates? That's what prisons use, gates. Seem to work pretty well. "Gated" communities used gates. Schools surrounded by fences use... gates.

Wondergirl
Mar 31, 2019, 06:54 PM
Gates? That's what prisons use, gates. Seem to work pretty well. "Gated" communities used gates. Schools surrounded by fences use... gates.
There are easier and cheaper ways than a wall in the middle of a river. The construction alone boggles the mind, never mind maintenance and oversight.

paraclete
Mar 31, 2019, 08:56 PM
There are easier and cheaper ways than a wall in the middle of a river. The construction alone boggles the mind, never mind maintenance and oversight.

What a maintenance? What oversight? No more than you spend now, and easily built using pile drivers on barges. If this boggles the mind, you are easily boggled

Wondergirl
Mar 31, 2019, 09:09 PM
What a maintenance? What oversight? No more than you spend now, and easily built using pile drivers on barges. If this boggles the mind, you are easily boggled
Then you move here and show us, please. I've read articles by engineers who say the cost alone would be mindboggling. And going from country to country would be horrendous.

paraclete
Mar 31, 2019, 11:14 PM
Then you move here and show us, please. I've read articles by engineers who say the cost alone would be mindboggling. And going from country to country would be horrendous.

I thought you had bridges and checkpoints to go from country to country so that is a different issue. The cost of any wall is mindboggling, many miles, difficult terrain but if you are going to build it, get on with it, or contract it out to the Chinese, they have wall building skills, a willing work force and you may be able to convince them to go home when the job is done

jlisenbe
Apr 1, 2019, 04:41 AM
We already have some areas that are fenced. I don't understand why you think it is such a difficult undertaking to build a wall. Move a couple of hundred yards north of the river and build the wall. Simple.

paraclete
Apr 1, 2019, 05:41 AM
We already have some areas that are fenced. I don't understand why you think it is such a difficult undertaking to build a wall. Move a couple of hundred yards north of the river and build the wall. Simple.

Eminent domain, access to water, not to mention you have allowed illegals on to your land

talaniman
Apr 1, 2019, 06:41 AM
By law, migrants are NOT illegal until they have been processed. What's illegal is denying them that process. Like that stops the immigration hardliners from siding with the dufus not just about a wall, but the inhumane management of this classic issue, just as he mismanages MANY of our issues we face as a country.

The wall is but a smokescreen that the hardliners can rally around against the real issue of divide and conquer and GET PAID. Even sadder that the bible thumpers and racist coalition rally behind the side of fear and division and LIES.

jlisenbe
Apr 1, 2019, 10:16 AM
The wall is but a smokescreen that the hardliners can rally around against the real issue of divide and conquer and GET PAID. Even sadder that the bible thumpers and racist coalition rally behind the side of fear and division and LIES.

We want to stop the flood of illegal immigrants, clean and simple. Sad that in your mind that makes us "bible thumpers and racist coalition". Yet you are the guy that wants to bemoan the practice of name calling by Trump. Sounds to me like the two of you have a lot in common.

talaniman
Apr 1, 2019, 10:58 AM
We want to stop the flood of illegal immigrants, clean and simple. Sad that in your mind that makes us "bible thumpers and racist coalition". Yet you are the guy that wants to bemoan the practice of name calling by Trump. Sounds to me like the two of you have a lot in common.

The dufus has passed a judgement on migrants and branded them illegal and treated them like criminals without the proper due process required by law. You have aided, abetted, and enabled such bad behavior with your support of him. The fact that you as a Christian have joined the supremist to this end speaks volumes.

I'm not calling names but calling you out since you ignore the example of your own savior.

Wondergirl
Apr 1, 2019, 11:24 AM
The dufus has passed a judgement on migrants and branded them illegal and treated them like criminals without the proper due process required by law. You have aided, abetted, and enabled such bad behavior with your support of him. The fact that you as a Christian have joined the supremist to this end speaks volumes.

Wikipedia: "Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services. Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product."

jlisenbe
Apr 1, 2019, 02:44 PM
The dufus has passed a judgement on migrants and branded them illegal and treated them like criminals without the proper due process required by law. You have aided, abetted, and enabled such bad behavior with your support of him. The fact that you as a Christian have joined the supremist to this end speaks volumes.

Uhm... let's see. There is a legal way to enter the country. If you just walk in and don't follow the law, then you are breaking the law and deserve to be treated as a criminal. Not real complicated.


Wikipedia: "Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services. Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product."

I'd love to see this alleged research. How would anyone have any idea how much taxes are paid by illegals? And yes, legalizing the illegal population would add greatly to the democrat voting base which is why they are all in favor of it.

Wondergirl
Apr 1, 2019, 02:59 PM
Research


"The Impact of Unauthorized Immigrants on the Budgets of State and Local Governments" (https://www.cbo.gov/publication/41645). Congressional Budget Office. December 2007.
^ a (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:10_4-0) b (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:10_4-1) "The economic impact of US immigration policies in the Age of Trump" (http://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/2/56826033/ageoftrump_june2017.pdf#page=70) (PDF).
^ a (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:11_5-0) b (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:11_5-1) Liu, Xiangbo (2010-12-01). "On the macroeconomic and welfare effects of illegal immigration" (https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/15469/1/MPRA_paper_15469.pdf) (PDF). Journal of Economic Dynamics and Control. 34 (12): 2547–2567. doi (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1016/j.jedc.2010.06.030 (https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.jedc.2010.06.030).
^ a (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:12_6-0) b (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:12_6-1) Palivos, Theodore; Yip, Chong K. (2010-09-01). "Illegal immigration in a heterogeneous labor market". Journal of Economics. 101 (1): 21–47. doi (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1007/s00712-010-0139-y (https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00712-010-0139-y). ISSN (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number) 0931-8658 (https://www.worldcat.org/issn/0931-8658).
^ a (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:14_7-0) b (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_ref-:14_7-1)
See Wikipedia article for more. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States



And yes, legalizing the illegal population would add greatly to the democrat voting base which is why they are all in favor of it.
Why on earth would it add to the dem voting base???? It would definitely add to repub business owners' bank accounts because crops would get harvested, hospital and nursing home and office floors would get swabbed, roofs would get roofed, and homes and office buildings would get built.

jlisenbe
Apr 1, 2019, 05:21 PM
1. I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest you have not read a single one of the research papers. If you had, you would have found the following fascinating text.

"This paper examines the effects of illegal immigration in a neoclassical growth model with two groups of workers, skilled and unskilled. We show that although illegal immigration is a boon to a country as a whole, there are distributional effects, whose sign is in general ambiguous. This is because all sources of income of both groups are affected and some of these changes tend to move income in opposite directions. Nevertheless, calibration exercises show that the wealth distribution is likely to become more unequal as the number of illegal immigrants increases. We confirm most of our calibration results analytically in a small open economy version of the basic model. Finally, our results remain robust when we extend the model to allow for endogenous skill acquisition."

I found nothing that supported the Wikipedia article. But if that article is correct, then wouldn't it be wise to just open the border up and let anyone and everyone in? Is that what you are proposing?

2. Most of the illegals are Hispanic. Hispanics overwhelmingly vote democrat. You do the math.

tomder55
Apr 2, 2019, 05:19 PM
The dufus has passed a judgement on migrants and branded them illegal
If they crossed the border illegally ,then by definition they are illegals .

tomder55
Apr 2, 2019, 05:28 PM
some of the headlines in the last few months .

https://bigleaguepolitics.com/texas-border-town-overwhelmed-by-mass-migration/

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/12/23/asylum-seekers-travel-to-portland-in-droves-overwhelming-city-services/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/03/tijuana-asylum-seekers-women-children-trump/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzp80KfEUjk
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

https://onenewsnow.com/culture/2019/01/29/flooded-by-asylum-seekers-maine-rethinking-aid-program

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-asylum-seeker-surge-at-quebec-border-choking-canadas-refugee-system/

talaniman
Apr 2, 2019, 06:03 PM
"This paper examines the effects of illegal immigration in a neoclassical growth model with two groups of workers, skilled and unskilled. We show that although illegal immigration is a boon to a country as a whole, there are distributional effects, whose sign is in general ambiguous. This is because all sources of income of both groups are affected and some of these changes tend to move income in opposite directions. Nevertheless, calibration exercises show that the wealth distribution is likely to become more unequal as the number of illegal immigrants increases. We confirm most of our calibration results analytically in a small open economy version of the basic model. Finally, our results remain robust when we extend the model to allow for endogenous skill acquisition."

That in no way precludes the veracity of any of the accepted data. The text obviously refers to state counties and regions in the US, and that's an important distinction. The wealth gap is widening with or without undocumented immigrants. Yes more than half are hispanic so what? That population hasn't grown greatly in a decade while others are, and that is what is accounting for the spike at the southern border.

Maybe it would be more practical if we build a wall at Mexico's southern border...and we pay for it!

jlisenbe
Apr 2, 2019, 07:36 PM
This paper examines the effects of illegal immigration in a neoclassical growth model with two groups of workers, skilled and unskilled.

Yes. That certainly makes a lot of sense. I think frequently about a neoclassical growth model. I'm sure you do as well.

Wondergirl
Apr 2, 2019, 07:42 PM
Yes. That certainly makes a lot of sense. I think frequently about a neoclassical growth model. I'm sure you do as well.
I won't post the entire explanation, since you get irritated so easily.

"What Is the Neoclassical Growth Model?The Neoclassical growth model is based on an economic theory that outlines how a steady economic growth rate (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/economicgrowthrate.asp) results from a combination of three driving forces: labor, capital, and technology."

jlisenbe
Apr 3, 2019, 04:11 AM
Read all the goobly-gook you want. Then build the wall.

In the meantime:

https://a57.foxnews.com/hp.foxnews.com/images/2019/04/1280/533/e18a3935aade8775af87ba5909279098.jpg?tl=1&ve=1

talaniman
Apr 3, 2019, 05:37 AM
Nust be worse than we though where they are running from.

tomder55
Apr 6, 2019, 01:18 PM
Refugees should be armed,trained and encouraged to take back their country from the leaders of the nation ,who can either reform or die.

tomder55
Apr 6, 2019, 01:27 PM
Open borders encourages money laundering and people smuggling and disincentivizes patriotism in the Third World .
If the globalists really want to prevent failing states they should make it difficult for any high ranking 3rd world official to move themselves, their money or their families to the West unless specially cleared.
The idea is already contained in the Magnitsky Act. Since 2016 the bill, which applies globally, authorizes the US government to sanction those who it sees as human rights offenders, freezing their assets, and ban them from entering the U.S. . you remember the Magnitsky act don't you ? The act the Ruskies TRIED to get Trump to repeal ?

https://www.news.com.au/world/south-america/children-of-venezuelas-elite-including-exleader-hugo-chavezs-daughter-flaunt-wealth/news-story/22af92afbb1a12ec841fa36348748a1f

Wondergirl
Apr 6, 2019, 02:01 PM
No one is in favor of "open borders"!!!!

jlisenbe
Apr 6, 2019, 02:06 PM
Only the democrats. They favor security with their words, but have no real ideas of how to achieve it. Build the wall.

talaniman
Apr 6, 2019, 04:45 PM
And repubs believe a wall is their savior? What a dufus idea.

Wondergirl
Apr 6, 2019, 05:00 PM
Only the democrats. They favor security with their words, but have no real ideas of how to achieve it. Build the wall.
And if the refugees and immigrants were blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasians, we'd send buses south to bring them here.

Dems believe in technology, knowing that the brrr brrr noise it makes doesn't cause cancer.

jlisenbe
Apr 6, 2019, 05:47 PM
And if the refugees and immigrants were blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasians, we'd send buses south to bring them here.

Yet another hateful, prejudiced statement. Very disappointing. You have essentially jumped on the Trump train. And yes, I have probably again gotten carried away and perhaps too harsh in my response, but I don't like your implication that conservatives are racists. It is a terribly unfair accusation.


Dems believe in technology, knowing that the brrr brrr noise it makes doesn't cause cancer.

What???

Wondergirl
Apr 6, 2019, 07:18 PM
Yet another hateful, prejudiced statement. Very disappointing. You have essentially jumped on the Trump train.
You don't think Trump would agree with that? At an Oval Office meeting with lawmakers, he said he doesn't want immigrants from “$h!thole countries” (Haiti and Africa) and called for more immigrants from places like Norway (blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasians).


What???
Drones are quiet, and other technologies that can be used at the southern border are quiet, unlike, according to Trump, wind turbines that go brrr brrr and give one cancer. And when there's no wind, your tv doesn't work because the electricity is off.

jlisenbe
Apr 6, 2019, 07:25 PM
You don't think Trump would agree with that? At an Oval Office meeting with lawmakers, he said he doesn't want immigrants from “$h!thole countries” (Haiti and Africa) and called for more immigrants from places like Norway (blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasians).

No, I don't think Trump would agree with your statement. As for me, I'm all for immigrants so long as they come here to work and believe in our system of government.

tomder55
Apr 6, 2019, 07:36 PM
"Good fences make good neighbours." Robert Frost

Wondergirl
Apr 6, 2019, 07:49 PM
"Good fences make good neighbours." Robert Frost

Have you ever read and explicated the entire poem? Frost (the poem's narrator) is against walls and fences:

"Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down...
He will not go behind his father's saying."

Frost's neighbor is stubborn and wants to put up a wall "just because" his father always did.

From https://www.gradesaver.com/the-poetry-of-robert-frost/study-guide/summary-mending-wall-1914 :

In the poem itself, Frost creates two distinct characters who have different ideas about what exactly makes a person a good neighbor. The narrator deplores his neighbor’s preoccupation with repairing the wall; he views it as old-fashioned and even archaic. After all, he quips, his apples are not going to invade the property of his neighbor’s pinecones. Moreover, within a land of such of such freedom and discovery, the narrator asks, are such borders necessary to maintain relationships between people? Despite the narrator’s skeptical view of the wall, the neighbor maintains his seemingly “old-fashioned” mentality, responding to each of the narrator’s disgruntled questions and rationalizations with nothing more than the adage: “Good fences make good neighbors.”

jlisenbe
Apr 7, 2019, 05:42 AM
Was either neighbor allowing his family members to cross at will and camp out on the other guy's land?

talaniman
Apr 7, 2019, 06:26 AM
That's the story of America isn't it? The Euros came and kept coming and I bet if the natives could have enforced their sovereignty they would have. They were outgunned and out numbered eventually, and no doubt those same Euros are making sure the natives don't get it back right?

Heck that's the history of mankind. I get why you want walls and fences. Your tribe just wants to keep what they took from another tribe.

jlisenbe
Apr 7, 2019, 06:45 AM
Heck that's the history of mankind. I get why you want walls and fences. Your tribe just wants to keep what they took from another tribe.

It seems to me that most liberals are fine with illegals flowing across the border, but they never seem to have any of them camped out in their own backyard. It's OK so long as it's someone else's problem.


Your tribe

What tribe is that?

talaniman
Apr 7, 2019, 08:03 AM
Are you a native? Are you Hispanic? Euro? SLAVE descendent or all the above? Pick one and you tell me.



It seems to me that most liberals are fine with illegals flowing across the border, but they never seem to have any of them camped out in their own backyard. It's OK so long as it's someone else's problem.


How do you know their illegals without due process by law? Seeking asylum doesn't make you illegal. Overstaying your visa does, but nothing said about that. Selective prejudices?

Wondergirl
Apr 7, 2019, 09:45 AM
Was either neighbor allowing his family members to cross at will and camp out on the other guy's land?
The poem's narrator wouldn't have cared. The neighbor wanted a fence only because his father had ranted that there had to be one.

In my neighborhood (and suburb) we don't have barriers to keep each other out. If we found a family camped out in our large, tree-shaded back yard, we'd help them figure out more comfortable and safe housing by connecting them with Catholic Charities (an office with social workers is nearby) and area churches.

jlisenbe
Apr 7, 2019, 11:55 AM
If we found a family camped out in our large, tree-shaded back yard, we'd help them figure out more comfortable and safe housing by connecting them with Catholic Charities (an office with social workers is nearby) and area churches.

1. How often have you actually done that?
2. Why connect them with Catholic Charities? Why not help them yourself? Why do liberals always want to pass people off to someone else to help?

talaniman
Apr 8, 2019, 02:48 AM
What could be wrong with networking for the good? Only a twisted mind would limit others and tell them what they should do to help others for a better outcome.

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 04:19 AM
I didn't tell anyone what to do. You are the one doing that. I just asked a couple of questions.

talaniman
Apr 8, 2019, 06:47 AM
All due respect my friend, but your questions came off rather crass especially the last one, which I felt was an insult to the selfless hard working volunteers who are giving of themselves to help those in need. Networking with organizations is just more effective for more people, than just what one can do on their own.

Surely your own good works have shown you that.

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 07:10 AM
I'm all for Catholic Charities. My point was that liberals are constantly wanting to impress everyone else with their charitable inclinations by letting other people take care of the poor. I like to know what a person is doing on an individual basis. At least tell me that you are a volunteer at CC, or support them with financial donations, but don't try to say that driving someone down to an organization amounts to helping the poor. It can be a good thing to do, but it is still not a personal involvement in an individual's life.

It's the same thing I have been saying repeatedly. Charity is not when A helps B with C's money. Charity is when A helps B with A's money.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 09:11 AM
1. How often have you actually done that?
2. Why connect them with Catholic Charities? Why not help them yourself? Why do liberals always want to pass people off to someone else to help?
1. I've never found people camped out in my back yard.
2. One of my master's level internships was working for nine months at Catholic Charities. I was able to combine counseling families with tutoring and home visits and helping seniors and the disabled to be the best they can be. Catholic Charities offers a very wide spectrum of services, services I couldn't provide on my own. (Lutheran Social Services is another excellent provider of services.) Of course, I continued to be "lightly" involved with my clients after my internship ended.

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 10:09 AM
That's good and wonderful, but an internship is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about going out and engaging with needy people in an unpaid position just for the sake of doing it and being a blessing. That's my complaint with liberal people. It's generally about getting someone else to help the needy. What is needed is for many of us to become personally engaged, not simply professionally engaged.

And I'm not trying to engage in finger-pointing at you personally. I have no idea what you do to help others. It might be considerable, but as I said, I have not seen that to be the case with liberals I have met or communicated with.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 10:44 AM
That's good and wonderful, but an internship is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about going out and engaging with needy people in an unpaid position just for the sake of doing it and being a blessing. That's my complaint with liberal people. It's generally about getting someone else to help the needy. What is needed is for many of us to become personally engaged, not simply professionally engaged.

And I'm not trying to engage in finger-pointing at you personally. I have no idea what you do to help others. It might be considerable, but as I said, I have not seen that to be the case with liberals I have met or communicated with.
Of course, I'm not going to list all the ways I help people and animals. Oh yeah, I will tell you that, for many years, my husband and I have been feral/stray cat rescuers, eventually adopting them ourselves or finding loving homes for them. My working in public libraries for years allowed me to get to know the community and the residents, and my starting and overseeing a multi-cultural volunteer corps that included court-ordered community-service workers gave the library staff many wonderful opportunities to help others at the library and from home. No one asked first who belonged to what political party; we all just dug in to make lives better.

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 12:23 PM
I commend you. It's a fine thing to help animals. It's good to have a volunteer group to help the library. I'm happy for you. Just saying that when it comes to actually spending their own money and their own free time to literally go out and help needy, poor people, that's a different situation for most people. So before a person starts getting all judgmental about the motives of those of us who want a secure border, I want to know if they are putting their own time and money where their words are with the poor and needy.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 02:02 PM
the motives of those of us who want a secure border, I want to know if they are putting their own time and money where their words are with the poor and needy.
Yes, I am, beyond your wildest dreams. I know I'm not the only "liberal" (???) doing so. And we can definitely have a secure border without putting up a medieval wall that can be gone under, over, and around.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 02:41 PM
JL, you musta missed my point. The library staff, as well as its volunteers AND court-ordered community service workers helped the entire community as needed -- and didn't drag politics into it.

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 03:40 PM
JL, you musta missed my point. The library staff, as well as its volunteers AND court-ordered community service workers helped the entire community as needed -- and didn't drag politics into it.

My congratulations! You are, in my experience, very much the exception.

As for the wall, we need to build it for the simple reason that everything else does not work. It will.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 03:48 PM
My congratulations! You are, in my experience, very much the exception.

As for the wall, we need to build it for the simple reason that everything else does not work. It will.
Thank you! As far as border control, we haven't tried technology yet along the entire southern border, nor are there enough well-trained immigration agents at enough checkpoints. Walls fall. Technology sings (and doesn't go rrr rrr and cause cancer).

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 05:14 PM
Thank you! As far as border control, we haven't tried technology yet along the entire southern border,

Been there. Done that. It doesn't work.


nor are there enough well-trained immigration agents at enough checkpoints. You mean Mr. Obama didn't hire enough??


Walls fall. Not new ones.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 05:20 PM
Been there. Done that. It doesn't work.
Not true!


You mean Mr. Obama didn't hire enough??
Who's he? Get with it. This is 2019.


Not new ones.
Walls can be gotten under, over, and around.

jlisenbe
Apr 8, 2019, 06:55 PM
Walls can be gotten under, over, and around. I guess that explains why jails and prisons do not use them.


Not true!


You liberals had eight years with Obama to employ all these magnificent tech advances and yet you found no need to do so. This is just a delaying tactic. "Oh! Oh! We know about all these wonderful techie thingies that will work just like, you know, awesome!" No, we are not going to fall for that one.

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 07:13 PM
I guess that explains why jails and prisons do not use them.
I sure hope your wall will be a Christian one.


You liberals had eight years with Obama to employ all these magnificent tech advances and yet you found no need to do so. This is just a delaying tactic. "Oh! Oh! We know about all these wonderful techie thingies that will work just like, you know, awesome!" No, we are not going to fall for that one.
How did I get to be a liberal -- because I think a wall is stoopid?

paraclete
Apr 8, 2019, 08:25 PM
I sure hope your wall will be a Christian one.

Walls are neutral



How did I get to be a liberal -- because I think a wall is stoopid?

Got it in one, you are not stoopid after all

Wondergirl
Apr 8, 2019, 08:51 PM
Walls are neutral
This will be a wall dripping with evil and ill will.

What about cages and separating kids from parents? And we will have to print up a lot of flyers to distribute in Central American countries and Mexico to alert people that we no longer believe in the words carved onto the Statue of Liberty and no longer follow Jesus' commands.

paraclete
Apr 8, 2019, 11:54 PM
This will be a wall dripping with evil and ill will.

What about cages and separating kids from parents? And we will have to print up a lot of flyers to distribute in Central American countries and Mexico to alert people that we no longer believe in the words carved onto the Statue of Liberty and no longer follow Jesus' commands.

I think you need to avoid dragging Jesus into your rhetoric. I see nowhere that Jesus expected you to allow your country to be overrun, he said to take the message to the ends of the Earth, not invite the inhabitants of the Earth to come to you. As to leaflet drops, great idea, it beats dropping bombs. It isn't that you don't believe the words but they were written long ago, when your country was empty except for your unfortunate native americans, and you can no longer afford sentimentality

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 04:25 AM
This will be a wall dripping with evil and ill will.

Getting a little carried away, aren't we?


What about cages and separating kids from parents? And we will have to print up a lot of flyers to distribute in Central American countries and Mexico to alert people that we no longer believe in the words carved onto the Statue of Liberty and no longer follow Jesus' commands.

Why is it that when we want to have border security, you suddenly become concerned with the commands of Jesus, but when we talk about abortion you are strangely silent concerning His commands? You sure are selective in your outrage. Just one way in which you qualify as a liberal.

I don't think Jesus would have a problem with us securing our southern border. Building a wall does not mean we don't want to continue to have immigration. It just means we would like to do so in a lawful manner.

As for separating kids from parents, do you want to put the children in jail with the parents? They are not being put in cages. Their parents should be completely ashamed of themselves for dragging their kids into this illegal entry.

talaniman
Apr 9, 2019, 04:36 AM
The country is still empty and the brown people aren't pouring in. That's just the exageration the right puts on everything. A lie perpetrated by a lying cheating racists whose followers love that kind of BS to feel better about themselves but are a minority. Walls and immigration are there priorities while the majority are trying to get health care and educate their kids for the 21st century economy.

The dufus needs a platform for the election and he sure has no answers for what Americans are concerned about, so he has to make one up at a cost to taxpayers, like everything else he does. Even repub lawmakers are moaning and groaning and resisting, but he is doing what he does best sucking up face time and feeding his base red meat, that is really BS. He has proven his dufusness yet again though, by putting himself first and the nation last by drumming up an emergency at the south border by refusing to process those that seek asylum humanely, thus creating a bottleneck that he uses for his purpose to scare his base.

But then processing a million brown invaders is scary to some in a country of 360 million, but hardly a crisis, or emergency, but what else can he talk about? Not health care, not education, not schools, not roads, bridges, nor infrastructure. Not energy, or middle class issues at all. He has little choice but to find something to talk about, and it's always gloom, doom, hate and division, as he purges the government and makes a mockery of law, order, and good orderly direction.

Shocked that he has followers at all, but not at the noise they make, or the fever pitch they allow themselves to be whipped into.



As for separating kids from parents, do you want to put the children in jail with the parents? They are not being put in cages. Their parents should be completely ashamed of themselves for dragging their kids into this illegal entry.


The point of humane process, and blaming the victims fleeing death completely goes over your head, as well as the LAW says asylum seekers are legal.

We both know Jesus would be at the southern border rendering aid and comfort to the weary traveler.

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 05:00 AM
by a lying cheating racists whose followers love that kind of BS to feel better about themselves but are a minority.

Or perhaps they just disagree with you. And maybe Trump is not a racist (what a tired, over-used word that has become) but just a man who wants to secure our southern border. It is possible that those who disagree with you actually have good reasons to disagree with you and are not a band of racist xenophobes. That kind of wild, unthinking accusation is part of what is wrong with American politics. Too much hate or anger driven rhetoric.

As to what Trump can talk about, he can certainly talk about the economy. He can talk about placing judges who believe in the rule of law. He can talk about dwindling food stamp numbers. He can talk about millions of Americans who now have jobs thanks to a revived economy that is so strong that there are now over seven million unfilled job positions in the United States. And yes, he can talk about the fact that we are finally making progress in securing our southern border. And no, I don't agree with the insane idea that saying that makes me a racist.


We both know Jesus would be at the southern border rendering aid and comfort to the weary traveler. So are you there rendering aid and comfort?

paraclete
Apr 9, 2019, 05:03 AM
.


The point of humane process, and blaming the victims fleeing death completely goes over your head, as well as the LAW says asylum seekers are legal.

We both know Jesus would be at the southern border rendering aid and comfort to the weary traveler.


Yes and we know that his message wouldn't be Make America Great Again. The question isn't whether you accept asylum seekers, the question is how many economic migrants can you accommodate. You already have millions of economic migrants

talaniman
Apr 9, 2019, 05:39 AM
They all contribute to the whole. So what's your point since ALL Americans are immigrants, and economically dependent, unless you are rich already. Quiet as it's been kept, the vast majority of those asylum seekers will be deported anyway after their cases are heard, and yes they do show up to court in hopes of their claims being granted. That's the way it's been done for a long time now until the dufus showed up to gum up the works by hyping the rapists, and drug dealers and gang members (LYING, as he always does).

You just cannot make reasonable policy decisions on lies and BS.

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 06:32 AM
You just cannot make reasonable policy decisions on lies and BS.

I'm sure you made that same point during Obama's eight years.

talaniman
Apr 9, 2019, 07:28 AM
Yes I did and you can go back and check if you like. I encourage you to do so.

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 07:49 AM
I never would have guessed it. You have been Obama's chief supporter and defender on this board.

Wondergirl
Apr 9, 2019, 08:50 AM
from JL: Why is it that when we want to have border security, you suddenly become concerned with the commands of Jesus, but when we talk about abortion you are strangely silent concerning His commands? You sure are selective in your outrage.
Why is it that when we want to have a discussion about abortion, you suddenly become concerned with the commands of Jesus, but when we talk about our southern border, you suddenly disregard His commands? You sure are selective in your outrage.

Wondergirl
Apr 9, 2019, 08:57 AM
a revived economy that is so strong that there are now over seven million unfilled job positions in the United States.
So let's get those million asylum seekers to become US job seekers!!!!

waltero
Apr 9, 2019, 10:41 AM
Would a wall prevent people trekking toward the US-Mexico border?
Trekking to the Border is where they suffer the greatest maltreatment.


Build the Wall, if it would keep people from putting themselves in Danger.

Wondergirl
Apr 9, 2019, 11:08 AM
Would a wall prevent people trekking toward the US-Mexico border?
Trekking to the Border is where they suffer the greatest maltreatment.Thus, we have to warn them by distributing flyers while they are still in their home countries and warn them that at our border they will be beaten, spit on, drugged, imprisoned, and permanently separated from the children and loved ones who came north with them.



Build the Wall, if it would keep people from putting themselves in Danger.

By the time they've reached the wall, it's too late.

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 11:09 AM
Why is it that when we want to have a discussion about abortion, you suddenly become concerned with the commands of Jesus, but when we talk about our southern border, you suddenly disregard His commands? You sure are selective in your outrage.

Jesus had a lot to say about life and nothing to say about immigration. I'm not sure how you can equate the deliberate and violent destruction of innocent unborn children with trying to have border security. And thus you have again identified yourself as a liberal.

talaniman
Apr 9, 2019, 12:57 PM
You make liberal sound like a bad word as compared to conservative and most of us are a mix of both depending on the issue.

waltero
Apr 9, 2019, 03:15 PM
By the time they've reached the wall, it's too late.

What wall?

People Don't head to the border to greet a wall.

tomder55
Apr 9, 2019, 03:20 PM
I say arm them ;train them ,and send them back . Let them fight for their own country if they are truely fleeing oppression.If they are coming here for the economic opportunity then they are not eligible for asylum status and there is an orderly procees that legal immigrants follow.

Wondergirl
Apr 9, 2019, 03:22 PM
Jesus had a lot to say about life and nothing to say about immigration. I'm not sure how you can equate the deliberate and violent destruction of innocent unborn children with trying to have border security. And thus you have again identified yourself as a liberal.
Did you notice how I merely reversed the subjects when I copied and pasted what you had commented to me? Yes, Jesus had a lot to say about life -- and about the lives of refugees and immigrants. (Psssst, I am a humanist and a Christian.)

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 03:30 PM
What did He say about the lives of refugees and immigrants, and in particular about illegal immigrants?


I am a humanist and a Christian.

To be truly a humanist (which is to say a believer in humanism), in the true sense of the term, is to say that one is not a Christian. Perhaps you mean it in a different sense than the historical one which is, "an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters."

Wondergirl
Apr 9, 2019, 03:36 PM
What did He say about the lives of refugees and immigrants, and in particular about illegal immigrants?
That would fun for you to research!


To be truly a humanist (which is to say a believer in humanism), in the true sense of the term, is to say that one is not a Christian. Perhaps you mean it in a different sense than the historical one which is, "an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters."
I didn't capitalize it. From dictionary dot com: a person having a strong interest in or concern for human (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/human) welfare, values, and dignity.

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 03:40 PM
That would fun for you to research!

In other words, you don't know of any. And no, I won't do your research for you.


I didn't capitalize it. From dictionary dot com: a person having a strong interest in or concern for human (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/human) welfare, values, and dignity.

Fair enough.

Wondergirl
Apr 9, 2019, 03:45 PM
In other words, you don't know of any. And no, I won't do your research for you.
In other words, you won't. And yes, I have. That must be my library career kicking in.

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 05:11 PM
In other words, you won't.

There is no "in other words" to it. I flatly stated I won't do your research for you. And you're awfully quiet for a person who has done her research. I'm pretty sure that He had nothing to say about illegal immigrants crossing the border.

paraclete
Apr 9, 2019, 05:23 PM
Awfully quiet for a person who has done her research. I'm pretty sure that He had nothing to say about illegal immigrants crossing the border.

The point is; he had something to say about travellers, there being robbers on the road who would attack travellers and righteous persons who would not offer help, and of course, one who did. I don't think much has changed. But remember Gideon, beset by the Midianites, migrants who trampled his land, he had to do something about it

jlisenbe
Apr 9, 2019, 07:08 PM
The story of the GS is a wonderful instruction aimed at individuals and their personal conduct. Now does it tell us to allow anyone and everyone to cross the border? No, I don't think so.

talaniman
Apr 9, 2019, 07:19 PM
I say arm them ;train them ,and send them back . Let them fight for their own country if they are truely fleeing oppression.If they are coming here for the economic opportunity then they are not eligible for asylum status and there is an orderly procees that legal immigrants follow.

There is a process for that and only through that lawful process can you determine whether their reasons are economic or not. That's just the law. Good luck arming and training kids and women to fight a war against the gangs. Rather a loony idea isn't it? We don't do that here.

talaniman
Apr 9, 2019, 07:28 PM
The story of the GS is a wonderful instruction aimed at individuals and their personal conduct. Now does it tell us to allow anyone and everyone to cross the border? No, I don't think so.

I cannot believe you are justifying a wall with an ancient account of a long ago war. Asylum seekers are stealing nothing from us.

waltero
Apr 9, 2019, 11:50 PM
I cannot believe you are justifying a wall with an ancient account of a long ago war.

Yah, Walls are funny that way.

paraclete
Apr 10, 2019, 06:01 AM
I cannot believe you are justifying a wall with an ancient account of a long ago war. Asylum seekers are stealing nothing from us.

It depends on how you define stealing. The problem is; unless the asylum seekers are actually from a war zone, they are economic migrants. So people have to learn to fight back against oppression

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 06:16 AM
Very few are legitimate asylum seekers. The vast majority just walk across the border illegally.

talaniman
Apr 10, 2019, 08:13 AM
It depends on how you define stealing. The problem is; unless the asylum seekers are actually from a war zone, they are economic migrants. So people have to learn to fight back against oppression

You mean a declared war zone? The history of man is littered with local civil unrest and people running for their lives. Outgunned and beset upon by much greater forces whose regimes are ruthless and while some opposition is mounted it's doomed to fail. You don't have to go back in history, just turn on the news where across the world the same thing is happening, spurring high levels of people fleeing tyranny. Mostly dirt poor and no resources. South America is a mess Clete, so is Africa and the Middle East, and getting worse, should we send guns, or an army? We tried sending money, but they need a lot more so how do we start the resistance to that oppression? Heck we still have oppression in the greatest nation on Earth and it's been ongoing for a while.

We do have a LAWFUL humane process on paper for migrants, if the dufus would abide by it, but obviously he has other ideas, and has a problem with the LAWFUL part so here we are. No Clete whether you have a declared war or just a monster civil conflict matters not. People run from them. Often it's people fighting themselves, not some conquering invaders.

I'll get back to you on that definition of stealing.


Very few are legitimate asylum seekers. The vast majority just walk across the border illegally.

By law a misdemeanor, and a lawful humane process takes care of that. The emergency is the lawless dufus hollering and screaming about gangs and criminals and refusing to apply the law to meet the challenge.

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 08:29 AM
Again, the great majority are not asylum seekers. They just cross the border illegally.

talaniman
Apr 10, 2019, 08:40 AM
JL my friend, life is easier if you just deal with it on it's own terms and not let it get to you. It's just the reality of life. All those migrants are but a symptom of a larger problem that hasn't been addressed. My solution is a joint effort between Mexico and the US to address those core issues and that is stabilize those parts of South America that produces those desperate humans fleeing regional conflicts. The same dynamic we have always seen in history that leads to wars and death, and prevalent to this day around the world.

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 09:33 AM
My solution is a joint effort between Mexico and the US to address those core issues and that is stabilize those parts of South America that produces those desperate humans fleeing regional conflicts.

I'm all for it, though it would be an enormous undertaking, especially considering that the United States is essentially broke. In the meantime, we build a wall so we can control who does, and does not, enter through our southern border. That's what I call dealing with life on its own terms.

Wondergirl
Apr 10, 2019, 09:42 AM
The US isn't the only country experiencing refugees at its border. The political and economic upheaval in Venezuela is causing refugees to flee to neighboring countries, in particular, to Colombia, where my sponsored child lives. Thus, I get regular emails from Compassion International about disaster relief and the needs of the refugees and their children. I'm sure CI is asking other sponsors for financial help for the refugees on our southern border.


the United States is essentially broke.
Huh??? What about our fantastic economy??? What are the members of our churches and synagogues and mosques and temples doing to relieve human suffering???

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 09:51 AM
Huh??? What about our fantastic economy??? What are the members of our churches and synagogues and mosques and temples doing to relieve human suffering???

We are 22 trillion in debt and accumulating more as fast as we can. President Obama managed to accumulate almost half of that in only eight years, and Trump is doing but little better. So any plan we formulate with our southern neighbors will only contribute more to that. It's all going to come down sooner or later, and honestly, any country as gung-ho for abortion as we are deserves it.

I'm all for supporting child feeding programs. My wife and I engage in it ourselves. I am sometimes amazed when I think of what the church could do if we were genuinely committed. We could both feed a lot of hungry children and put the great majority of, and perhaps all, abortion clinics out of business.

tomder55
Apr 10, 2019, 10:05 AM
quaint idea 'core issues ' What if the core issues' solution is regime change ? (which I believe is the case in at least Honduras and Venezuela ) The core issue with starvation in Venezuela is a jack booted dictator trying to create a communist utopia. In Honduras it is even more disturbing . https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/05/opinion/honduras-women-murders.html

talaniman
Apr 10, 2019, 10:12 AM
LOL, churches and releif efforts depends on the charity and donations of others and unpaid volunteers. So while you are stuck on abortions, the greater need goes unmet. We agree about the debt, but the challenge before us is an even bigger thing to deal with and the dufus and his wall is but a waste of time and a distraction from meeting that challenge. Like a wall will protect us from the real enemies we face. A wall for a misdemeanor offense? Really.

Have you lost your freakin' mind?


quaint idea 'core issues ' What if the core issues' solution is regime change ? (which I believe is the case in at least Honduras and Venezuela ) The core issue with starvation in Venezuela is a jack booted dictator trying to create a communist utopia. In Honduras it is even more disturbing . https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/05/opinion/honduras-women-murders.html

Regime changes is the best option in my book... starting right here at home and extending to many other regions. Poverty and starvation will surely make people run or join the army of dictators for a few ducats for bread for the families they leave behind. Yeah it's always been that way hasn't it?

tomder55
Apr 10, 2019, 10:23 AM
that's why I say arm the refugees and send them back to take back their homes .

waltero
Apr 10, 2019, 10:40 AM
Let's be realistic guys. Walls are in.

talaniman
Apr 10, 2019, 10:56 AM
Let's be realistic guys. Walls are in.

Only amongst the nut jobs who cannot think of better options. Better to fortify your own dwelling from the evil hordes you see descending on you.


that's why I say arm the refugees and send them back to take back their homes .

That could take years of training to be effective and we would still have to build them up with food and medicine to carry all those AR-15's. And rocket launchers. Unfortunately the dufus wants to boot the dreamers out of the army, and keep illegals out of the military.

Wondergirl
Apr 10, 2019, 11:08 AM
Unfortunately the dufus wants to boot the dreamers out of the army, and keep illegals out of the military.
The rich kids will claim bone spurs, high bp, and back pain, so who's left to fight for us?

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 11:16 AM
Only amongst the nut jobs who cannot think of better options.

Again, Tal refers to name calling. I really shouldn't have to hear anymore protests from the lib side about name calling. It's on full display here.


So while you are stuck on abortions, the greater need goes unmet.

I always regard it to be tragic when grown people cannot muster so much a speck of concern when children are being killed by the hundreds of thousands, and regard it to be a lesser need. As for needs being met, if you removed everything except the atheist aid organizations, there would be virtually nothing left. Thank God for the ministry of the church. It is not what it should be, but it is far above what unbelievers are doing.

talaniman
Apr 10, 2019, 11:34 AM
Again, Tal refers to name calling. I really shouldn't have to hear anymore protests from the lib side about name calling. It's on full display here.

Guilty then, but because I do it you make it a lib problem but when the dufus does it what should we call that? Back to you.

PS That's just part of the way I deal with BULLIES, and nut jobs who cannot discuss a consensus solutions and dismiss anything beyond their own nose.


I always regard it to be tragic when grown people cannot muster so much a speck of concern when children are being killed by the hundreds of thousands, and regard it to be a lesser need. As for needs being met, if you removed everything except the atheist aid organizations, there would be virtually nothing left. Thank God for the ministry of the church. It is not what it should be, but it is far above what unbelievers are doing.


I have as much concern about your abortion issues/views as how you support kids/women/FAMILIES to be treated and sent back to their deaths. That's why I continue to take the position you should stay out of people's personal business unless you will also aid in the raising of those kids in more substantive a minor than promoting your own personal morals. Food, shelter, medicine and some clothes to wear to school/work would be a start.

If the church were enough we wouldn't be in this mess.

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 11:44 AM
Guilty then, but because I do it you make it a lib problem but when the dufus does it what should we call that? Back to you.

I will say very readily that Trump, in his name calling, is as guilty as your are in your name calling.


I have as much concern about your abortion issues/views as how you support kids/women/FAMILIES to be treated and sent back to their deaths. That's why I continue to take the position you should stay out of people's personal business unless you will also aid in the raising of those kids in more substantive a minor than promoting your own personal morals. Food, shelter, medicine and some clothes to wear to school/work would be a start.

So I'll ask again. How many of them are you housing? How many are you personally feeding? If you want to start a charitable organization to help those people in their own countries, then let me know and I'll help. But your solution is basically to let the entire distressed population of Mexico and Central America just move to our country, all tens and tens of millions of them. Well no, I don't agree with that. And it gets old to hear your appeal to charitable superiority over the rest of us when it's not costing you anything. When you start going to Mexico and trying to help people there so they will have a better life in their own countries, then let me know. I'll help out and you will, without question, have earned the respect of all the rest of us, but as long as it's just words, it doesn't count that much.

Now Tal, you know that you and I are very honest with each other. I say nothing here for the purpose of insulting you. I hope you understand that. One thing about you that I really like. You do not speak in mysteries. You are not "yes" today and "no" tomorrow. You do not try to conceal yourself in some murky, middle ground. I like that a great deal. If you think I'm an SOB on some topic, you just come out and say it. Clarity is a great thing between friends.

waltero
Apr 10, 2019, 02:26 PM
Walls are in.



You can try and reinvent the wheel (wall), until you do, walls are it.



Only amongst the nut jobs who cannot think of better options. Better to fortify your own dwelling from the evil hordes you see descending on you.


Such is the World.

You might view walls as being primitive but they are still being used, built, functional, in todays world...more then ever before.



Only amongst the nut jobs who cannot think of better options.


Who is it you are describing here (You've been saying this exact thing all along) ?

You said it, it is our only option...Build the Wall!


We should encourage people with problems to just run away. But if they have nowhere to run...

jlisenbe
Apr 10, 2019, 03:23 PM
Walter, very well said.

tomder55
Apr 10, 2019, 04:54 PM
everyone who doesnt think we need a wall should leave their doors unlocked .

talaniman
Apr 10, 2019, 05:05 PM
I can be an absolute SOB myself JL. On any subject at any time. Everybody knows that. Frustrating for others I know.

@Waltero, If you build a wall to keep from helping those running to you for help, then you don't get to hide behind Jesus. Admit your fear and pray for courage.


everyone who doesnt think we need a wall should leave their doors unlocked .

I lock my doors for security against my fellow Americans, most are lunatics, and criminals. What does that have to do with a wall against desperate poor and afraid men, women, and children unless you believe the lying cheating dufus who wants YOU to pay for it because Mexico told him to screw himself.

paraclete
Apr 10, 2019, 06:27 PM
I can be an absolute SOB myself JL. On any subject at any time. Everybody knows that. Frustrating for others I know.

@Waltero, If you build a wall to keep from helping those running to you for help, then you don't get to hide behind Jesus. Admit your fear and pray for courage.



I lock my doors for security against my fellow Americans, most are lunatics, and criminals. What does that have to do with a wall against desperate poor and afraid men, women, and children unless you believe the lying cheating dufus who wants YOU to pay for it because Mexico told him to screw himself.

And yet you won't lock your door against the invaders, many of whom are criminals, as your president has told you. Mexico will pay in many ways and are already paying. You can do something about the poor, it is called untied foreign aid, but no, your military-industrial complex insists on preserving their profits by benefiting from every dollar of aid you give. Why don't you just dump your food, your equipment on their shores, it would be cheaper and more effective

waltero
Apr 10, 2019, 07:45 PM
Waltero, If you build a wall to keep from helping those running to you for help, then you don't get to hide behind Jesus. Admit your fear and pray for courage.



Who here is using the Bible (Jesus) to Justify thoughts and actions? Am I reaching out living the message?

The world works independently of Christ. A wall will prevent many hardships.


Christian charitable activity should be independent of parties and ideologies. It is not a means of changing the world ideologically, and it is not at the service of worldly stratagems.







Quote:

“I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. ... These two institutions screw us up enough
on their own, so both of them together is certain death.”
George Carlin

talaniman
Apr 11, 2019, 06:00 AM
To begin with, broadbrushing fleeing humans fron danger with the invaders label is not only highly prejudical, but deceptive rhetoric used to stoke fear and hate. The dufus uses it effectively on those that listen to him. It's an insult, to associate these so called invaders with criminals. A humane lawful process exists already to separate the vast humans with legitimate issues from those without, and even identify the undesirable criminals from the lot. Let's face it as inadequate as the system is in the view of many the dufus doesn't want to use it at all, nor want to garner the proper resources for it either. Such a failure exacerbates the problem, and the utter failure to effectively partner with other countries to deal with this shared issue should raise red flags as to the incompetence of this administration to rise to the challenge and selling a bill of goods to his base with the catch all of a wall.

The wall doesn't even address the issue of catching criminals, or the huge number of visa overstays or undocumented that have been here for decades, or the huge and dangerous problem of drugs that have fueled the narco driven unrest that contributes to people running in the first place. A wall only misuses the resources from real issues to false security.

Wondergirl
Apr 11, 2019, 08:54 AM
A humane lawful process exists already to separate the vast humans with legitimate issues from those without, and even identify the undesirable criminals from the lot. Let's face it as inadequate as the system is....
Exactly what I've posted, Tal. Let's use the system we have (and improve and enlarge it).


The wall doesn't even address ... the huge and dangerous problem of drugs that have fueled the narco driven unrest that contributes to people running in the first place.
And let's get serious about the drug problem in the US. If so many of us didn't want illegal drugs, the narco salesmen wouldn't have a market to sell to.

jlisenbe
Apr 11, 2019, 10:50 AM
Exactly what I've posted, Tal. Let's use the system we have (and improve and enlarge it).

You guys just plainly don't get it. Most of these people just cross the border illegally and are never processed in any way since they are sneaking in. Now with a wall in place, most of that will stop and then the process can be used properly.

talaniman
Apr 11, 2019, 11:44 AM
The process should ALWAYS be used properly whether people have been sneaking in or not. I take your point though of the many that sneak in and not get processed, but that is an unknown number and I am dubious a wall will ever stop them all, and digging tunnels is a economy all its own obviously well worth the effort for people and drug smugglers, and find one shut it down they dig 10 more. Lets not ignore the controversy of how the dufus is going about getting YOUR money to pay for the wall, or the way he even presents his "EMERGENCY" by intentionally slowing down the process for deterrent effects. That was both cruel and dumb, but you guys like his cruel dramatic ways.

waltero
Apr 11, 2019, 11:59 AM
A wall only misuses the resources from real issues to false security.

A false sense of security is the only kind there is. (http://www.quotemaster.org/q619f3e56ca562e68ca4ad06fc3edd11d)


We like the Fact that Trump doesn't want to play "the game". He's going to get his wall, without giving the Dems Squat.The Dems would certainly fold on the wall issue, if only Trump would play ball with them.

Wondergirl
Apr 11, 2019, 12:29 PM
Most of these people just cross the border illegally and are never processed in any way since they are sneaking in. Now with a wall in place, most of that will stop and then the process can be used properly.
They'll still sneak in. Once they find out a wall is in place, they'll bring along the equipment they need to dig under it or climb over it. Haven't you read about the boat launching that will take place to help refugees and immigrants get into the US via water? Just like all the prison escapes, where there's a will, there's a way!

We need more border stops with medical and food services and, of course, more well-trained agents and US sponsors.

jlisenbe
Apr 11, 2019, 01:25 PM
Just like all the prison escapes, where there's a will, there's a way!

And yet we have not abandoned the idea of prison walls because there is no better answer. There's a lesson to be learned there. And I doubt seriously that a million people a year will enter by boat. We confiscate the boats and they soon have no boats. They bring a backhoe onto American land to "attack" the wall, then we seize the backhoe.

Gosh. Not real complicated.

waltero
Apr 11, 2019, 01:29 PM
Maybe we should use the News Media? Have them fabricate a Story of torture and death for all those that enter through the southern Border.

oops, already been done.

Delete

tomder55
Apr 11, 2019, 01:48 PM
Why don't Americans become refugees from some of the Democrat districts ? I wouldn't blame them . Does Maxine Waters represent her district ? How ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=-owq0whScEc

Wondergirl
Apr 11, 2019, 01:49 PM
And I doubt seriously that a million people a year will enter by boat. We confiscate the boats and they soon have no boats. They bring a backhoe onto American land to "attack" the wall, then we seize the backhoe.

Gosh. Not real complicated.
Trains and planes and boats and ladders and shovels. And without electronics, how will anyone know who is where along the wall?

jlisenbe
Apr 11, 2019, 01:54 PM
Trains and planes Yep. Those million poor people a year now crossing illegally will all go out and buy a plane ticket.


boats and ladders and shovels. And without electronics, how will anyone know who is where along the wall?

Fine. Put in some electronics. One way or the other, the river is slowed to a trickle. Mission accomplished.

paraclete
Apr 11, 2019, 03:16 PM
Fine. Put in some electronics. One way or the other, the river is slowed to a trickle. Mission accomplished.

Yes electrify the wall, problem solved

Wondergirl
Apr 11, 2019, 03:53 PM
Yep. Those million poor people a year now crossing illegally will all go out and buy a plane ticket.
Plenty (plus drugs) are coming in via air and sea -- and across our northern border.


Fine. Put in some electronics. One way or the other, the river is slowed to a trickle. Mission accomplished.
What river? A wall gives it to Mexico.

jlisenbe
Apr 11, 2019, 07:19 PM
Plenty (plus drugs) are coming in via air and sea -- and across our northern border.

The vast majority simply walk/drive across our southern border. Build the wall.

Wondergirl
Apr 11, 2019, 07:53 PM
The vast majority simply walk/drive across our southern border. Build the wall.
Those are refugees from Central America.

talaniman
Apr 12, 2019, 04:20 AM
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/11/675892744/fact-check-trump-says-a-lot-of-wall-has-been-built-as-he-demands-we-build-more

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46748492

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/border-issues/2018/11/05/what-trumps-border-wall-progress/1898283002/

For those that hate links to facts and data, the dufus LIES! He ain't done squat, and his emergency has yet to rise to previous high levels of migrants and certainly not from Mexico. Nobody asks why when repubs had power supreme he got no money for his wall, and even a dufus should know so you wall supporting right wing immigration hardliners can take a break and enjoy his antics, share popcorn with the rest of us or you can keep whooping and hollering like your fake hero, same results though, you get NOTHING...because he 's got nothing.

jlisenbe
Apr 12, 2019, 04:33 AM
From an article you linked. "Leaving aside the semantic difference between a wall and a fence, Trump is correct that fencing in San Diego, for example, significantly reduced "illegal traffic" when originally built decades ago. It also pushed border-crossers east, away from coastal San Diego, to areas where the fencing is less robust."

So if we had a wall all the way across, that would be the end of it. Thanks for the supportive link!

And no, you cannot say that 80,000 people a month from Central America are walking through Mexico to get to our border. Just not true. Most of them are still from Mexico.

talaniman
Apr 12, 2019, 08:38 AM
From an article you linked. "Leaving aside the semantic difference between a wall and a fence, Trump is correct that fencing in San Diego, for example, significantly reduced "illegal traffic" when originally built decades ago. It also pushed border-crossers east, away from coastal San Diego, to areas where the fencing is less robust."

So if we had a wall all the way across, that would be the end of it. Thanks for the supportive link!

And no, you cannot say that 80,000 people a month from Central America are walking through Mexico to get to our border. Just not true. Most of them are still from Mexico.

I gave you my facts, give me yours. My point was you will never get them all and the barriers built decades ago work pretty good if you don't mind them dying in the desert, or digging tunnels. You probably do.

paraclete
Apr 12, 2019, 04:42 PM
I gave you my facts, give me yours. My point was you will never get them all and the barriers built decades ago work pretty good if you don't mind them dying in the desert, or digging tunnels. You probably do.

Tal, the idea is to slow the flood to a trickle, as well as humanely stopping people from dying in the desert, etc. There is a deterrent effect if these "refugees" know that the only way in is through official channels. You will still have to deal with people smugglers, just as you have to deal with drug smugglers.

Wondergirl
Apr 12, 2019, 04:44 PM
Tal, the idea is to slow the flood to a trickle, as well as humanely stopping people from dying in the desert, etc. There is a deterrent effect if these "refugees" know that the only way in is through official channels. You will still have to deal with people smugglers, just as you have to deal with drug smugglers.
How will future refugees know that?

jlisenbe
Apr 12, 2019, 05:26 PM
The same way they know the path is wide open now. Word gets around.

Wondergirl
Apr 12, 2019, 05:32 PM
The same way they know the path is wide open now. Word gets around.
The boyfriends all know each other?

jlisenbe
Apr 12, 2019, 05:39 PM
The boyfriends all know each other?

What??

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 07:12 AM
Even if a female knows or has a good idea of who fathers their children, what's the likelihood they would tell that to anyone they think will hassle them, or the fathers by revealing those facts. Right or wrong SELF preservation is a compelling argument, as is the FEAR of what comes next. You can rant and rave about "I don't know", but what can you really do about it? Compel compliance by forcing a confession of sexual partners of unmarried women? Is not the priority to help or not, AFTER the deed is done? If you choose NOT to, then who will?

Thank God government is not as subjective to the practical side of human behavior.

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 08:42 AM
Even if a female knows or has a good idea of who fathers their children, what's the likelihood they would tell that to anyone they think will hassle them, or the fathers by revealing those facts. Right or wrong SELF preservation is a compelling argument, as is the FEAR of what comes next. You can rant and rave about "I don't know", but what can you really do about it? Compel compliance by forcing a confession of sexual partners of unmarried women? Is not the priority to help or not, AFTER the deed is done? If you choose NOT to, then who will?

You are trying to make the case that if a person makes a mistake, then the rest of us are morally, even legally obligated to support them in their mistake, even if they continue to repeat that mistake. If I accept that premise, then I could say that if a person purchases an expensive home and then finds out he/she cannot pay the mortgage, then the rest of us are obligated to make up the difference. Same thing would apply to any debt. If a person robs a bank and goes to jail, then the rest of us are obligated, I suppose, to spend part of that person's time in jail for them. If I am driving recklessly and wreck my car, then the rest of us must help pay for a new car. Well no, I don't agree with that outlook, and I find that those who advocate for that also don't bother to lift any standard of moral conduct and suggest that buying a house you can't afford, breaking the law, driving recklessly, and yes, sleeping around with anyone and everyone, should be held as foolish behavior and morally unacceptable.

When Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery, he left her with these parting words. "Go, and sin no more." That said two things. Yes, you are forgiven, but what you did was a sin before God and therefore unacceptable. That being the case, you need to stop that activity.

Wondergirl
Apr 13, 2019, 09:43 AM
You are trying to make the case that if a person makes a mistake, then the rest of us are morally, even legally obligated to support them in their mistake, even if they continue to repeat that mistake.
The "mistake " is a child whom you refuse to allow to be aborted once the woman realizes she's pregnant, yet you refuse to have anything to do with giving that child love and financial support once it has been born. At least, PP offers low-cost counseling and birth control to help these women avoid another unwanted pregnancy.

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 09:52 AM
The "mistake " is a child whom you refuse to allow to be aborted once the woman realizes she's pregnant, yet you refuse to have anything to do with giving that child love and financial support once it has been born. At least, PP offers low-cost counseling and birth control to help these women avoid another unwanted pregnancy.

You are wrong on several counts.

1. I clearly said the mistake was to sleep around with anyone and everyone. I never suggested the child was the mistake. In fact, between the two of us, I'm the only one who supports the right of the child to live in the womb.
2. You say that I refuse to allow the child to be aborted. Why didn't you say "we". You thus show yet again that your objection to abortion seems to be more words than anything else.
3. I am perfectly ready to give support to the mom and her child. I am not prepared to force other Americans to do so. That is your brand of charity, not mine.
4. PP is first and foremost an abortion provider. Birth control is already about as low cost as it can get. Your defense of PP would seem to show yet again your actual support of the abortion culture.
5. I notice you didn't comment on the point of those who repeatedly get pregnant out of wedlock. If they were to read your comments, they would likely get the idea that what they were doing is fine.

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 10:21 AM
I think you mix YOUR religious rights with the legal function of government. The government is for all not just one religion. While you may not like the function of government, the government over rules any religious law of any religion, not just YOURS. While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe. That doesn't mean you cannot try to win others, but you cannot take them by force. That's just the law of the land, and right or wrong that's how the government of us all is structured.

Would you really deny bread to a women with out of wedlock kids? Of course you wouldn't. So what do you propose the government does with her?

waltero
Apr 13, 2019, 10:24 AM
What's your feelings about tearing down the Wall? A wall already exists, it is a reality. You will have to go all the way and try to convince people that the wall needs to be Torn Down...not going to be easy, but it is the only way you will prevent the future from extending the wall any further.

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 10:24 AM
If they were to read your comments, they would likely get the idea that what they were doing is fine.

I beg to differ but the deed is done... NOW WHAT?

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 10:30 AM
I think you mix YOUR religious rights with the legal function of government. The government is for all not just one religion. While you may not like the function of government, the government over rules any religious law of any religion, not just YOURS. While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe. That doesn't mean you cannot try to win others, but you cannot take them by force. That's just the law of the land, and right or wrong that's how the government of us all is structured.

First of all, I'm always amused when someone says, "While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe." It's amusing because, of course, you are trying to make me practice what YOU believe. And it's even funnier since most people just can't seem to see or accept that.

As for me, I don't intend to, but then on the other hand, I don't want you to enforce you moral ideas on the rest of us either by making us pay for what other people are doing. That truth needs to be for you as much as for me.


Would you really deny bread to a women with out of wedlock kids? Of course you wouldn't. So what do you propose the government does with her?

No, but on the other hand I would also not support a culture of sexual carelessness and abortion on demand the way you seem to do. And before I give her bread, I'd want to know if she was working and the father(s) of her children was working and supporting his children.

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 10:32 AM
What's your feelings about tearing down the Wall? A wall already exists, it is a reality. You will have to go all the way and try to convince people that the wall needs to be Torn Down...not going to be easy, but it is the only way you will prevent the future from extending the wall any further.


I was against a fence before there was one, I got out voted and a fence we have. I can only accept that reality. If a wall is built, I can onlt accept that reality. Maybe someday they will tear down the walls and fences, they did in Germany, but until then we accept them or go around them like any other man made obstacle for whatever purpose they were built for.

What man builds doesn't always last.

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 10:34 AM
Maybe someday they will tear down the walls and fences, they did in Germany,

Yes, they tore down the wall in Germany when the two German states were united into one. Are you suggesting we combine the U.S. and Mexico into one country?

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 10:37 AM
First of all, I'm always amused when someone says, "While you are free to practice as you believe your beliefs, you cannot make others practice what YOU believe." It's amusing because, of course, you are trying to make me practice what YOU believe. And it's even funnier since most people just can't seem to see or accept that.

As for me, I don't intend to, but then on the other hand, I don't want you to enforce you moral ideas on the rest of us either by making us pay for what other people are doing. That truth needs to be for you as much as for me.



No, but on the other hand I would also not support a culture of sexual carelessness and abortion on demand the way you seem to do. And before I give her bread, I'd want to know if she was working and the father(s) of her children was working and supporting his children.

You are funny too. I force you to do nothing but what if her answers are not what you like, will you deny woman and child bread and milk?


Yes, they tore down the wall in Germany when the two German states were united into one. Are you suggesting we combine the U.S. and Mexico into one country?

God already combined them. It is man who separates them.

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 11:43 AM
You are funny too. I force you to do nothing

Of course you do. You said I could not impose my beliefs on others. Now in saying that, you are demonstrating your belief that it is wrong to impose your beliefs on others. That is your belief, and you are imposing it upon the rest of us.


God already combined them. It is man who separates them.

What??

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 11:53 AM
Of course you do. You said I could not impose my beliefs on others. Now in saying that, you are demonstrating your belief that it is wrong to impose your beliefs on others. That is your belief, and you are imposing it upon the rest of us.

Nice dodge of the question with accusing me of forcing my beliefs on you. You expressed yourself and so did I no force we are doing so freely aren't we? Sorry you feel oppressed. Now back to the question please.


What??

Find a map and erase the lines of men and what's left?

Wondergirl
Apr 13, 2019, 11:54 AM
1. I clearly said the mistake was to sleep around with anyone and everyone. I never suggested the child was the mistake. In fact, between the two of us, I'm the only one who supports the right of the child to live in the womb.
From everything you've posted, yes, getting pregnant and having a child out of wedlock is the mistake. That comes down to, the child is the mistake.

2. You say that I refuse to allow the child to be aborted. Why didn't you say "we". You thus show yet again that your objection to abortion seems to be more words than anything else.
I believe abortion can be done in a God-affirming way. The decision should be made together by the mother, father if he's anywhere around, and medical personnel.

3. I am perfectly ready to give support to the mom and her child. I am not prepared to force other Americans to do so. That is your brand of charity, not mine.
That's very unselfish. What happens to the other millions of babies that you can't support or don't even know about? Yet you pay taxes to support the VA (Trump says he'll end that), the food stamp program (another program that will soon disappear), and public schools (All children should attend Christian schools and their parents should pay tuition???). Before long, you won't have to pay ANY taxes! Yay!

4. PP is first and foremost an abortion provider. Birth control is already about as low cost as it can get. Your defense of PP would seem to show yet again your actual support of the abortion culture.
You are incorrect. Abortion is very far down the list of services they provide to low-income women. Their main services are prevention of pregnancy and women's health.

5. I notice you didn't comment on the point of those who repeatedly get pregnant out of wedlock. If they were to read your comments, they would likely get the idea that what they were doing is fine.
Huh? Was I supposed to? Let's talk about WHY they get pregnant out of wedlock....

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 12:02 PM
From everything you've posted, yes, getting pregnant and having a child out of wedlock is the mistake. That comes down to, the child is the mistake.

Having sex outside of marriage is the mistake. I've been plain about that. The man is as guilty as the woman.


I believe abortion can be done in a God-affirming way.

So explain to us how you can kill an unborn child in a God-affirming way. If you do so, don't try to dodge the fact that you are killing the child.


That's very unselfish. What happens to the other millions of babies that you can't support or don't even know about?

I would suggest we go back to a culture of men and women having sex (and babies) within the confines of marriage. Again, a very simple solution that worked in this country for many, many decades.


You are incorrect. Abortion is very far down the list of services they provide to low-income women. Their main service is prevention of pregnancy.

They perform more than 300 thousand abortions a year. You are kidding yourself.

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 12:17 PM
The government created welfare for all those females that made mistakes, or those marriages didn't work out that well. What do we do with those in that circumstance who don't meet your Christian test? According to you that's WRONG, and for YOU to decide by YOUR standards.

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 12:19 PM
The government created welfare for all those females that made mistakes, or those marriages didn't work out that well. What do we do with those in that circumstance who don't meet your Christian test? According to you that's WRONG, and for YOU to decide by YOUR standards.

No. I am saying that people make decisions and they need to live with their decisions. It is not for you, according to your own profession, to force your belief on other people and compel them to support someone else. You are the one who said we should not do that. Have you changed your mind?

talaniman
Apr 13, 2019, 12:21 PM
They perform more than 300 thousand abortions a year. You are kidding yourself.

So shut down ALL the services they proved for the one small one you are against. Passing judgement and punishment. It's you who kid yourself.

jlisenbe
Apr 13, 2019, 12:23 PM
one small one

300 thousand dead children a year. I have no idea in what way any person can call that "small". The difference is this. You don't care about the one million children a year killed in abortion. I do.