Has common sense, like Elvis, left the building?

An art exhibition featuring cartoons of Mohammed attracted gumen who shot up the place and were killed

Gunmen shot dead after opening fire at art exhibition in Texas featuring depictions of Prophet Mohammed - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-04/gunmen-shot-dead-after-opening-fire-at-art-exhibit-in-texas/6442752)

I have to ask, did anyone not expect this to deliberately provoke an incident? Particularly in the light of recent events elsewhere. This is not, as the organisers suggest about freedom of speech, it is like yelling fire in a crowded theatre. I would be the first to say jihadists need to pull their head in, however deliberately prevoking them is stupid. It is to be hoped security agencies pay the same attemtion to these people as they would to the jihadists, prevoking a terrorist act should carry the same penalties as the act itself

Having seen a great deal on the web by the organizer of the event, I would not be surprised if the event was held to draw the muj out from hiding.

Her website: http://pamelageller.com/about/

So really what your saying is we should give up our lands and allow sharia law to take over because if we resist then it might offnd them and they like to kill those that offend them for any number of reasons.

Bull, it was about freedom of speech and to show that even in this country your not safe from the nutcases that want to preach hate and death.

Would you have rather it been another art exhibit with Christ in some bodily fluid?

This was the same group that protested the muslims use of school district facilities for their own rallies.

500 Protest Islamic Conference At Garland ISD Facility « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/01/17/500-protest-islamic-conference-at-garland-isd-facility/)

Sounding Off: Garland-Mesquite residents debate Garland ISD’s actions to allow a Muslim peace conference | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/garland-mesquite/headlines/20150122-sounding-off-garland-mesquite-residents-debate-garland-isds-actions-to-allow-a-muslim-peace-conference.ece)

It should be noted that two nut jobs involved in criminal behavior have no reflection on the muslim community in Garland who didn't protest the groups activity. The group had their own security in place and obviously prepared.

Islam debate returns to Garland ISD’s Culwell Center with Muhammad art event | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/garland-mesquite/headlines/20150427-islam-debate-returns-to-garland-isds-culwell-center-with-muhammad-art-event.ece)

It's just like comparing Islam with the dopes who did the French terrorist stuff. They are criminal loony idiots! No different than ISIS, or the KKK, godless NUTS!!!

No I never said that obviously we vigourously defend our lands against aggression but there was no evidence of aggression before this event was held. I think that other art exhibition was deplorable and should not have been allowed. Just because a thing can be done doesn't mean it should be, and those who deliberately provoke whether it be on religious or racial grounds should be dealt with severely. We should not be going out of our way to offend any group. That is the real point here I'm for a sane society where we live together in harmony not one where we feel we must always assert our superiority. This exhibition wasn't about freedom

I'm for a sane society where we live together in harmony not one where we feel we must always assert our superiority.

Tell the Islamics that. Their goals are different.

This sums up my feelings... and from the big guy himself.
47383

This sums up my feelings... and from the big guy himself.
47383

As always, I am with u

The Islamic community didn't show up, but a couple of nuts did. Even Hebdo spared no religion his cartoon opinions, but Geller and her group had one subject in mind.

Racists have a right to free speech, but that doesn't change the fact they are haters and racist.

Fanatics of any persuasion do not have the right to inflame a situation to the point where someone gets killed that goes for both racial and religious issues and we should stop the namby pamby nonsense of protecting free speech when there is obvious intention to inflame and cause offense. This was one such instance but there are many examples in recent history.

There is such a thing as a duty of care and that includes protecting everyone

we should stop the namby pamby nonsense of protecting free speech

Heil Paraclete!

You have choices and with those choices comes responsibility. We don't shoot people for what they say, nor do we throw them in jail. That is the basics of a free society, and all are protected by it. Even this hate spewing Geller group.

Even in a place like Garland Tx, the support for the Gellers is loud, but a small group. Let 'em hate, while others who hate follow them, and the rest ignore them. Only a warped sick fool gets a gun to shut them up!

ISIS loves these small groups of haters though that spur the ignorant nut cases to actions they benefit from.

Heil Paraclete!

That's the way of the dictator cats, taking what is said out of context and verballing someone, you have joined the ranks of Goebells

No context to take. You said what you said. You wish to control peoples' speech. I will not allow you to claim you said something else.

Freedom of speech is a right that is protected, you can say whatever who want. It is the repercussions that you need to deal with. One could post graphic and obscene cartoons of Muhammad violating Jesus's nail holes as some sort of divine hand job. There is NOTHING stopping anyone from doing that. The fallout is the problem. You could be murdered. You could be fired from your job. You could be ostracized by the world. You're life could be ruined and over.

From what I gather the artist believed that there wouldn't be any severe fallout beyond the controversy. The controversy was what he was going for in this case to bring several issues into the collective consciousness for processing. He caused this to happen but isn't responsible for it. Given the nature of the subject he'd assume that something like this could happen but it isn't on us to censor his artwork.

I think it is disgusting and arrogant of us as a society to disrespect Islam the way we're doing at the moment. It isn't a sign of the enlightened society we claim to be. If their faith says to refrain from portraying Muhammad in art then don't do. Not because the harsh religion says so, but out of respect for another fellows faith. It's the only way we're going to be able to live together as society and not fall to pieces as we're doing now.

I think we have to stop thinking in broadbrush definitions and take things at face value. Speech means speech or reported speech, it doesn't mean art, and the right to go out of your way to offend doesn't exist. As far as respecting Islam is concerned I'll do that when they stop killing Christians but my disrespect comes from different sources it results from their actions. My faith asks me to refrain from killing therefore by your standard muslims should refrain from killing people of my faith and their own scriptures suggest that but they fail to heed it and they kill their own just as easily.

Why should common sense be dictated by what artists say they believe? The deluded minds that create what is said to be art offer no standard of behaviour and they should be guided by society as to what is acceptable when dealing with certain subjects I deplore the attack on Charlie Hebdo but I think they were not wise in doing what they did and putting their staff at risk. Similarly these people in Dallas were not wise in acting as provocateurs. They did not have public saferty in mind

Fanatics of any persuasion do not have the right to inflame a situation to the point where someone gets killed that goes for both racial and religious issues and we should stop the namby pamby nonsense of protecting free speech when there is obvious intention to inflame and cause offense. This was one such instance but there are many examples in recent history.

There is such a thing as a duty of care and that includes protecting everyone

Just to set the record straight cats this is what I said. Note the words; obvious intention to inflame and cause offense. I believe the public need to be protected from those who have no intention of protecting public safety irrespective of their views. You apparently believe rabble rousers should be able to ply their trade with indemnity.

Most Americans feel that disgusting as an a$$hole can be, as long as they are within the law, then they can do as they please. Provocative and crazy are not illegal, nor is profiting from being either.

Participation is voluntary.

Most Americans feel that disgusting as an a$$hole can be, as long as they are within the law, then they can do as they please. Provocative and crazy are not illegal, nor is profiting from being either.

Participation is voluntary.

Agreed. We also have the nut jobs from Westboro Baptist Church who are noted for showing up at funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq or Afghanistan and cheering, saying God is glad they have died (on the theory that God is punishing the US for advancement of gay rights). Clearly that causes great hurt to family and friends, but they're allowed to do it regardless. I view Pamela Geller and her ilk as similar -she's a bigot intent on insulting a group of people and hoping to spark an incident. If her agenda was really about free speech her exhibit should have included works of "art" like "Piss Christ" (look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ) and burning the American flag - both are forms of protected free speech, per the Supreme Court, and both cause great upset among a lot of people. But she is interested only a targeting Muslims. I whole-heartedly disagree with holding an exhibition of cartoons designed only to inflame, but support her right to do so.

Yes but Westboro doesn't represent Christianity and I have the view they should not be allowed to profane the memory of those soldiers. Perhaps the way around this is to stop protecting such people let them taste the violence they provote first hand. The point is some things are sacred and we have lost the respect for the sacred, whether that is a religion or a soldier who has paid the price, and become more concerned about those who sell liberty very cheaply

Perhaps the way around this is to stop protecting such people let them taste the violence they provote first hand.

I disagree very strongly as true freedom depends on equal protection under the law for EVERYBODY!


The point is some things are sacred and we have lost the respect for the sacred

In America we all seem to agree that the right to free speech is sacred, and at the top of the list, even if some things PISS you off and there is a difference of opinion. Practicing one's religion (within the boundaries of LAW) is also SACRED.

If those two nutcases in Garland had of protested loudly actions they disagreed with instead of shooting people, then no problem!

That's the problem with extremeists they don't protest peacefully because they want a real result not a talk fest.
Security measures increased at US military bases - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32667807)
At least one group in the US takes the threat crediably. The US military expects that ISIS militants will attack bases in the US. Thus far ISIS have not demonstrated that capability but it would be a distraction from their losses in Iraq

Power struggle in Macedonia - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32612508)

The attack by albanians on Macedonia is the balkan conflict raising again, and as we know that conflict essentially came down to a conflict between Muslims and others, principally serbs, but the ancient country of Macedonia is not far from these tensions

This sums up my feelings... and from the big guy himself.
47383

yup !!

Clete .Don't you see the hypocrisy ? When it was Charlie Hebdo the world stood in unison to defend freedom of speech . When it was Salmon Rushdie the lefties united behind him. But when it's Pam Geller ,well all she's doing is trying to provoke them. She doesn't deserve the same protections.

There is a very popular play on Broadway now that mocks Mormons . You don't see them rising up and making death threats . Suppose it was' Koran the Musical 'instead of 'Book of Mormon' ? Should one be permitted and not the other because one side is prone to violent reaction ? Christians here saw publicly funded "art " that consisted of a crucifix submerged in urine ;and Mary mother of Jesus smeared with elephant dung. I objected to the public funding ;but against the right of the artist to display their 'sculptures' . I think the Islamic State needs to be defeated for their persecutions there . We should certainly not let them dictate what is appropriate in a free society .

Here is the winning cartoon :

47400

Here is the winning cartoon :

47400

What is the point of posting something that is no longer available, has censorship taken over at AMHD fearing muslim rhetribution? Or have they been removed elsewhere on the net?

There are more against this sort of behaviour than for it, What happened to your sense of democracy? Tom, these are changed times and what a liberal secular society in the US considers acceptable is not acceptable to much of the world. That has been demonstrated a number of times with tragic consequences. No one should be killed because they express a particular point of view but when you deliberately provoke you are inviting violence.

How do you like the allegation that seal team 6 deliberately targeted and killed a cripple? what a wonderful piece of free speech denigrating your armed services

Tom, these are changed times and what a liberal secular society in the US considers acceptable is not acceptable to much of the world. screw the rest of the world. What the rest of the world should see is what a world dominated by tyranny looks like . They whine about a cartoon depiction of Mohammed while they behead those who won't convert to their religion ;stone women to death ;throw homosexuals from buildings . Let the rest of the world cower to their dictates if they chose to do so. Here in America ,we defend free speech and are not afraid to exercise our right to it.

How do you like the allegation that seal team 6 deliberately targeted and killed a cripple? what a wonderful piece of free speech denigrating your armed services

Seymour Hersh has been known for sloppy journalism. Normally he goes after Republicans . He pushes a conspiracy theory that would need thousands of willing participants to pull it off.
As an example . The USS Carl Vinson is a Nimitz class Carrier. That means that there were a minimum of 6,000 personnel on board to witness the burial of OBL . Yet Kirsh says that OBL was jettisoned from the jet into the Hindu Kush mountains. Possible ? Yes ,but I have never heard any sailor from the Vinson say the burial at sea never took place. So some of what he reports is plausible ;and some of it isn't . I personally always thought the Obots embellished the story anyway. It made for a neat campaign slogan ....(the emperor killed OBL ;AQ is on the run ,he ended the war ....etc etc ) . Free speech is one of the closest things to an absolute right.

let me try it again .....
47404

Yes Tom you easily dismiss the allegations but you have to admit a massive conspiracy involving Pakistan, who had nothing to gain by concealing Bin Laden, and your own administration. We know these things happen, but scattering body parts? A story designed to make Muslims more angry than the depiction of the prophet, nice portrait, by the way, definitely captures the prophet of peace well. A burial at sea, who knows what the corpse looks like? If they lie about one detail they can lie about others.The fact that there might be 6,000 personnel on a carrier doesn't mean any of them actually saw the corpse. Did they hold public viewings? You see Tom things done in secret give rise to fiction and political manipulation. I like the way you dismiss 95% of the world's population so glibly, as if we are something you scrapped off the sole of your boot. This is what so endears us to the US, your sense of superiority and self righteousness and yet you still haven't dealt with the inequalities in your own society. You really aren't a shinning example that perhaps you once were. The american way or the highway is not a good look.

Let them intimidate Australians into submission if you want to lick their jack boots . 'Don't tread on me. '

Ed Miliband, the head of the British Labor Party, wishes to criminalize “Islamophobia” . There is no problem that a little censorship can't cure . Those who attack the cartoon contest graphically illustrate Pam Geller's case about Islam.

Let them intimidate Australians into submission if you want to lick their jack boots . 'Don't tread on me. '

If you have kept up lately Tom you will known two terrorist plots have been twarted recently and a number of passports of would be daesh fighters cancelled so Australians are not intimidared but alert and not fooled by islamist propaganda


Ed Miliband, the head of the British Labor Party, wishes to criminalize “Islamophobia” . There is no problem that a little censorship can't cure . Those who attack the cartoon contest graphically illustrate Pam Geller's case about Islam.

Given the problem the UK may face he should be criminalising islamisation and by the way Milibrand resigned after electoral defeat so labor won't enjoy an islam led resurgance and such attitudes may have led to his defeat. We all have little doubt that islamists are the rabid tip of the problem Tom but deliberately stirring them up only adds to be problem and as I have said is akin to yelling fire in a crowded theatre

stirring them up only adds to be problem
Therefore, no stirring up or we're toast?

I didn't infer that, just that public safety is important too/ Would you knowingly do something that will get someoneelse killed? This is the question that is being ignored here. You don't have a right to put someoneelse in harms way, in some jurisdictions that is called manslaughter

Like the rhetoric you are spewing?


We all have little doubt that islamists are the rabid tip of the problem

At least Geller gets PAID for her crap!

Tal to you everything that disagrees with you is crap, why do you defend a provocatuer like Geller? This person brought violence to your community with no apology.

Perhaps the state of your nation is so bad that liberty needs that periodic refreshing. Your police molest your citizens with impunity, Your poor are legion. You even suggest you have near full employment with 50% below the poverty line

The second in command of daesh has been killed leaving the organisation bereft of senior leadership for the moment

Islamic State deputy leader 'killed in Iraq air strike' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32726646)

This might explain why their success has been blunted lately with two senior figures now off the front line. This may be the time for the Iraqi to seize the initiative

Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi implores Muslims to 'go to war everywhere' in new audio recording (http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/islamic-state-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-implores-muslims-to-go-to-war-everywhere-in-new-audio-recording/story-fnh81ifq-1227355856038)

El Baghdadi has said islam will never be a religion of peace. He is sort of echoing the thoughts that the rest of us are having

Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi implores Muslims to ‘go to war everywhere’ in new audio recording (http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/islamic-state-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-implores-muslims-to-go-to-war-everywhere-in-new-audio-recording/story-fnh81ifq-1227355856038)

El Baghdadi has said islam will never be a religion of peace. He is sort of echoing the thoughts that the rest of us are having
And he speaks for Muslims all over the world? I don't think so!

At least Geller gets PAID for her crap!


Je Suis Geller

Je suis idiot

And another one bites the dust, apparently US forces took out a daesh leader in a boots on the ground operation in Syria.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-16/us-special-forces-kill-senior-is-leader-in-syria-pentagon-says/6475492

must be getting a little lonely at the top

They are like cockroaches . They multiply . They adjust . You don't see any images of long convoys of trucks anymore because they were being targeted . The next commander won't be as visible . The Syria situation is getting dire as the Islamic State continues to make gains.

The Syria situation has been dire for four years, but while there is an undesirable in power no one is going to do more than fiddle at the edges. Daesh represents one of the more organised groups and yet what they have done is take over in a vacuum. They don't seem to be very good at fighting pitched battles. We shouldn't count retreats by Iraqi forces as gains by Daesh. The arabs don't appear to have the heart for the fight and as the shiia Iraqi won't arm the sunni tribes we can expect that Daesh will be permitted to walk in. What is amazing here is a that a relatively small force of Daesh can rout a larger force ofIraqi army and shiia militia. Very poor leadership, I wonder who trained them?

The arabs don't appearto have the heart for the fight and as the shiia Iraqi won't arm the sunni tribes we can expect that Daesh will be permitted to walk in. What is amazing here is a that a relatively small force of Daesh can rout a larger force ofIraqi army and shiia militia. Very poor leadership, I wonder who trained them?

The Sunnis can't be rallied to fight the Islamic State as they were during the surge because they know that a Shia goon squad will replace them . So the Sunnis on the fence would rather stay out of the fight ,or align themselves with the Islamic State . Take as an example the Iranian backed militias taking back Tikrit . They then went house to house doing a pogrom against Sunnis in the city . The militias continue to do the same in Baghdad . The central government is powerless to stop it .

As for your cheap shot at American training ... The Iraqi army is comprised of mostly Shia recruits who are in for the payday . They have no incentive to fight.
If you are looking for fault then look no further than the emperor's decision to retreat ,and not renew the status of forces agreement . Don't blame American trainers (all 3,000 of them) who have been confined to their base ,and cannot travel with the troops they train into the battle . They are not even permitted to call in air strikes.
The US has a half hearted effort against the Islamic State . Oh you can look it up and they are happy to tell you how many tanks they've taken out during 'Operation Pin Prick' aka 'Operation Inherent Resolve' .
Defense.gov Special Report: Operation Inherent Resolve (http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2014/0814_iraq/)

But the Islamic State continues to make gains in Iraq and Syria . The good news is that they did manage to find 100 troops from the Free Syrian Army to train.

This is the emperor's legacy . Reporters in this country should stop asking gotcha questions to Repubic candidates about what they would've done in 2003 about Iraq ,and start asking what they would do today about the Levant .

Tom you aren't the only guys who have trainers on the ground but it has obviously been ineffective because the troops aren't supported by a good officer cadre and logistics the troops ran because they were running out of ammunition, Ramadi has been a long fight, and air strikes, well they are surgical and not used where there are civilian populations, if they still exist in Ramadi. I think it is time to say to Iran, I think we will let you do the heavy lifting this time and just back the kurds.

What would you do Tom have your trainers on the front line carrying the fight to the enemy? Vietnam all over again? In all the time you were in Iraq you couldn't pacify Anbar so you won't do it with 3,000 backed by a rag tag army that runs when it gets serious opposition. What legacy? You won the war in Iraq, remember the surge? But if you were serious you could sweep in and take it again. The Saudi would applaud and give you a base of operations. Your media isn't going to ask the right questions, to do that you might have some inkling of the right answer.

What I don't understand is with all your air power daesh is still selling electricity to the Syrian regime, the oil refineries and oil fields still operate, the Syrians are using low grade chemical weapons and Obama has splinters in his arse

In all the time you were in Iraq you couldn't pacify Anbar so you won't do it with 3,000 backed by a rag tag army that runs when it gets serious oppositionWe did not have to pacify Anbar. All we had to do was be strong enough to get the Sunni tribes on our side having them know that we had their back . Then they did the heavy lifting and drove AQ Iraq out .
The status of forces agreement was for a larger force than just 3,000 trainers . It was big enough to keep Iran out of Iraq until a time when the Iraqi government could take care of security on their own.
But the emperor screwed it up 2 ways .
1. He did not extend the status of forces agreement
2. He backed the Iranian stooge Maliki in the election even though Ayad Allawi won the vote.




What I don't understand is with all your air power daesh is still selling electricity to the Syrian regime, the oil refineries and oil fields still operate, the Syrians are using low grade chemical weapons and Obama has splinters in his arse

What's not to understand ? The emperor is an incompetent CIC and he has surrounded himself with yes men like General Dempsey .






Th



What's not to understand ? The emperor is an incompetent CIC and he has surrounded himself with yes men like General Dempsey .








Maybe he should recall stormin Norman you can't recall those other generals they were disgraced. The way I thought it worked was the Joint Chiefs were advisors to the CIC not the other way around. No you should let Iran get its arse kicked in Iraq, they should experience their own personal Vietnam, they wouldn't shrink from using tactical nukes, if they had them

One aspect we tend to forget is Daesh recruiting in unlikely places

A Georgian region is fertile ground for Islamic State - US news (http://www.mail.com/int/news/us/3563904-georgian-region-fertile-ground-islamic.html#.1258-stage-hero1-6)

The news media focuses on the big hit items, Palmyra, Ramadi, Tikrit while the real problem is stemming the flow of fighters into the conflict. Those fighters will also be coming from within Iraq because the sunni will not stand by and let the shiia have their way. Old enmities die hard and Iraq is proving that it may become another generational war

it's a millenial war dating back to the beginning when the pedophile Prophet formed his religion with a sword and conquest . The Islamic state is an army of 20,000 savages . But they are treated by the world like they are the greatest force in the region. Shia militias will drive them out of Ramadi just like they did in Tikrit.
The problem then will be that the Shia militias will do a pogrom against the Sunni residents .

The problem you raise about foreign fighters comes into play when they return home after training to be a jihadists in Iraq and Syria .

You may like to think that but in fact it is a war that you unleashed on the region because of Bush's unfinished business. I think we all understand that the arab mind thinks in terms of vengeance, generational vengeance and given opportunity the shiia will extract it as they have been doing. You cannot minimise what Daesh is, a well organised force of fanatics who have acquired weapons that make them more formidable. Their main force will not be easily driven out and a victory in Tikrit doesn't mean much. This is a war of attrition. It has become a proxy war for the gulf states, saudi and Iran

As to returning fighters, the question is why are they returning? They may be a threat in radicalising others or they may be a moderating influence. We have laws which will prosecute them and jail them, not a great incentive to return. But the flow of foreign fighters must be stopped and Turkey is the key, obviously they are facilitating this. A weakened Syria is in their interests

a moderating influence ? they are learning jihad .......the Muslim reformation.

Yes Tom but there are some who think that these fighters have found that the reality is not a glorious caliphate but death and degradation and that they would use their experiences to convince disaffected youth not to join in. I am personally skeptical. I don't think our western mind can grasp the driving forces behind this muslim jihad to cleanse Islam of the apostate shiia and restablish the caliphate and don't forget Turkey was, until 1918, the last vestigate of that ancient caliphate. Past glories die hard in that world of tribalism and religious furvour.

OBL successfully used this furvour to raise a standard against infidel US forces in Saudi Arabia, and Daesh has undoubtedly used it to drive out or kill anyone other than the most militant sunni in Syria and Iraq. You think this is about reformation in the muslim world and some good will come of it?

no I don't think any good will come to it . I am just throwing out the proposition that there are people in the West who think that Islam needs a reformation similar to what happened to Christianity(allegedly to return Christianity to the way Christ intended ) ....and I say it is possible that this jihadistan movement is that reformation (return Islam to what the 'prophet ' intended ). It most likely is a false assumption that any good will come of it at all.

The Christian reformation was about redemption but this Muslim revolution is about death. Do you know the wahhabist sunni consider the shiia even worse than kaffir? Their view of the shiia is something akin to the way we thought about muslims a thousand years ago. We should not glorify what they are doing by calling it a reformation and if it is a restoration then we must crush this blood cult. Mudhutmad was desert terrorist who raided neighbouring settlements, his followers are no different today. Mudhutmad would have loved to have had 30,000 wahhabists at his disposal, but not even he could command such a force while he was alive

reform ...... “make changes (in something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it.” What if improving Islam means purging it of “infidels” and “apostates,” segregating Muslim men from women, keeping the latter under wraps or quarantined at home; Banning many forms of freedoms taken for granted in the rest of the world ? The Protestant reformation was a return to sola scriptura .....scriptural literalism ;and it appears that is the basis for the current jihadi movement. The teachings of the Bible and Koran are antithetical and that explains the different results of 'reformation' .

Your definition includes the word improve. In what way do you think what you have laid out is an improvement, it is just more of the same? Any system that subjects men and women to a system that is more akin to slavery is not an improvement. Islam is a system of domination in every form of life. If you had spent any time in a muslim country you would know this. Fundamentalism can have unintended consequences, in the case of Islam it is a return to its barbaric past

If you had spent any time in a muslim country you would know this I'll admit it's been a long time. But I spent considerable time in a Muslim country in the 1970s. I did not see anything close to the radicalization that happened only a couple years later .
In the jihadist mind ;they are improving Islam by returning it to the tenets on the book .It's the book that's the problem .

I think it's the fundamentalist interpretation of the book that's the problem. Not much different than the Holy War Catholics, or the blue blood monarchs of medieval time, or those devout christian gentlemen who owned slaves and fought for the right to keep and spread the practice.

Seems to be what religions have done throughout the history of man. Doesn't matter the book, somebody is always a savage, a heathen, or an infidel at some time or another, depending on which self righteous religious bast@rd and his conquering army decides to spread the word.

This is but the latest manifestation of my god is better than yours, after some colonial power has reeked havoc on a population.

And which colonial power might that be Tal in the case of the Muslims. The real point of it all is that if they want to live this way then we should stop interferring with them. You will see that they will quickly stop killing each other and even if they don't it isn't our business. No there are certain people who want to stir up trouble and sell them arms. You hardly hear any news out of Afghanistan today and what do you hear from Libya? This thing between the shiia and the sunni isn't an argument about God, it is about who should lead Islam back in the dark ages. Sorry the dark ages still exist in the middle east

The British, the Germans, and then the US ruled Iran and installed their leaders and that does include Saddam in Iraq. The European and US fingerprints are all over the middle east.

The British, the Germans, and then the US ruled Iran and installed their leaders and that does include Saddam in Iraq. The European and US fingerprints are all over the middle east.

Yes Tal for centuries the europeans of all persuasions interfered in Africa and the middle east and it is the US who fostered a war between Iran and Iraq, playing both sides, who are responsible for the current debacle. You are the successors to the great game but you have never learned subtle. The Muslims aren't shouting at the British or the French when they declare their enmity and you are doing it again with China, making an enemy where no enemy exists

Yes Tal for centuries the europeans of all persuasions interfered in Africa and the middle east and it is the US who fostered a war between Iran and Iraq, playing both sides, who are responsible for the current debacle. You are the successors to the great game but you have never learned subtle. The Muslims aren't shouting at the British or the French when they declare their enmity and you are doing it again with China, making an enemy where no enemy exists

So sayeth the little dog to the big dog, from the relative safety of their own porch!

you are doing it again with China, making an enemy where no enemy exists

more nonsense . The Chinese are on the verge of destroying the international order established after WWII ,and the precedence of freedom of navigation . It wont be an issue to you until you start having to pay tribute to use the navigation lanes . Then you'll cry out "where is the US Navy " ?

We did not start the Iran Iraq war . Not even close . Saddam Hussein started it . He thought that he could exploit the chaos of the Iranian Revolution . He miscalculated . We did not play both sides . We got involved when the Iranians started to target international trade through the Gulf . Then the US Navy came to the rescue to insure the freedom of navigation ...

Strange sense of history Tom; you deposed the ruler of Iran and installed the Shah, a person favourable to you, when he was deposed by popular uprising you supported saddam in his war and then sold the Iranians arms to use against saddam. If saddam had not been a client state you wouldn;t have cared two hoots about the gulf. If the Chinese destroy your international order that may not be a bad thing but you may find if you pick a fight with the chinese it will do more damage to you than it does to them. We won't pay tribute because those aren't our ships but if they want our minerals and gas they will look favourably our way. You see, we are not blind, we know you once again look greedily at our markets, but given what's going on at home you should be looking to your own because you have allowed the chinese to become your supplier of choice. Where do you think your electronics come from? your clothes? but you sell them more than they sell you so stop the trade and you loose both ways

Tal you little dog big dog analogy suits your barking at China you will keep pushing until you invent another Gulf of Tonkin incident

If saddam had not been a client state you wouldn;t have cared two hoots about the gulf. you talk of me having a strange sense of history ? Now if you said 'if the world energy supply wasn't an issue' then you would be right . We wouldn't care and would only play lip service to the gross human rights conditions in countries where Islam plays a part in the law. However ,you see what the people you claim are medival do with their leverage ,and with modern weapons.

As far as Iran goes ;the Shah was already there during the Mosaddegh term . Mosaddegh was using "emergency powers " to take power away from the Shah. He also disolved the Parliment . In other words ,a typical 3rd world "one vote ,one time" democracy .
That alone did not tip the scales . However ,he relied heavily on the pro-Soviet Tudeh Party as his base of power and was stearing the country into the Soviet sphere .
Yes the Ayatollahs used the coup as a pretext for stirring up the mob in 1979. In truth had Mosaddegh not been over thrown ,the clerics would've rose up against him much earlier than 1979. He was certainly not steering the country in a direction they approved .


We won't pay tribute because those aren't our ships of course you will either directly or indirectly . $$ Billions of commerce pass through the sea lanes they are making claim to . No they have no right to make such claims just because they dredge coral reefs in some other nation's waters . Thank God that the rest of Australia understands the significance.
http://news.yahoo.com/japan-join-u-australia-war-games-amid-growing-081619681.html

You are too smart to not understand the broader implications of this sea land grab. It is no different than what the Russians are doing .

Tom there is a vast difference between the Crimea and eastern Ukraine and the Spratley Islands. No one was interested in the damn things until China displayed an interest. Obviously China is building an air base, how's Diego Garcia going by the way. It seems big nations like airfields in strange places.


from Wikipeada Various political parties in India repeatedly called for the military base to be dismantled, as they saw the United States naval presence in Diego Garcia as a hindrance to peace in the Indian Ocean. Does any of this sound familiar?

[ (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/#cite_note-125) I see you spruking up China's sinster motives, the american line at the moment, but perhaps they are ensuring that the sea lanes remain open to China in the face of your pivot to asia. Cause and effect Tom, grand standing by your president may have caused this

grand standing by your
president may have caused this

The Chinese began flexing their muscles long before the emperor's reign began . And it's not just the Spratleys . It's also the Senkaku Isles,Scarborough Schoals , the Natunas ;Paracels ,disputes in the Gulf of Tonkin ,and disputes with EVERY other nation that is adjacent to their bogus cow tongue 9 dash line .But of course the Chinese are right and Japan ,Taiwan ,Philippines ,Vietnam ,Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia , Malaysia ,and all the other island nations in the region are wrong in your view . No this isn't Russia grabbing Crimea. This is as blatant as Saddam Hussein deciding the Kuwait belongs to Iraq. Both had to invent a historical justification for their territorial grab.
Do you like the territorial guarantee of the LOST. Would you like to have other nations come to your aid when they decided that their territorial claim extends to the Coral Sea ? Would you like for them to do to the Great Barrier Reef what they are doing to the coral beds in the South China sea as they dredge to create their great wall of sand ?
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Look Tom like you I see that some of China's claims are ridiculous but nations need to settle disputes without big brother stirring the pot. Australia has possessions that others might well think should be theirs. Christmas Island, the Cocos Islands, Ashmore Island come to mind as do islands in the Torres Strait.

Look Clete ,we have defense treaties with most of the major nations on the other side of the disputes .You say they have to settle them themselves ,but they do not have the power to impose their will like China does. China has the power and is using it for unprecedented territorial grabs . We have the power to make the Gulf of Mexico an American lake too. But we wouldn't .

The Chinese see it as extending their defensive zone true . But more important to them is the resources under the water ;and control of one of the most important sea lanes on the planet . So because of that it is not merely a matter of local territorial disputes. The Chinese have imposed their defensive zones already on commercial ocean and air fleets . They have gone so far as to challenge the USN . The USN has defended the principle of open seas since the days of Jefferson . We will not stop now .

Look Tom these nations have to stand up for themselves, China might have a large army but generally it's forces are weak and what they are doing is bluff. Thoses nervious nellies in Japan have a large defense force and the ability to force the issue, so do Taiwan if it comes to the point. You want open seas, sail back and forth between Malaysia and Japan drop into Vietnamise ports. No one wants a shooting war but gunboat diplomacy is something they understand and so do you after all you use it all the time.

This is much more about your ego than freedom of the seas

It's not about our ego when the Chinese can tell us to leave the area ,and believe they have the right to do so. If the Chinese can block free passage of resources through the South China Sea and the East China Sea ,then they have a huge hammer to wield on Japan ,S Korea , Phillipines and all the other nations in the region. The Japanese can create in short order a defense force necessary to challenge it .But why would you want the Japanese to rearm to that extent ? It is the Chinese that risk turning this into a shooting war ;not us . So stop the bs about the US ego. You are on the wrong side of this .

ps . The blue lines on the map I provided is the exclusive zones according to LOST. The Chinese are participants of the UN and therefore part of the LOST; which took effect in 1994 . The red line is the territorial zones of other nations they are encroaching according to LOST .

EGO? China is weak? Tell me again why Australia is playing with us in this military exercise? Is that EGO too?

Tal there are sicophants in every government, we have them too. Wall to wall yankeephiles. We have an alliance with you and therefore we carry out military exercises with you, you also carry out military exercises with other nations and these sometimes upset certain people. Recently one of your sicophants announced his plans to make Australia a B2 base, you can be assured there were two countries not happy about that. We do not have military intent to engage China, not so sure about you. I wonder where you will stand when we find it necessary to keep the waterways open that pass through Indonesian waters

Tom, I can read maps just as well as you can, but apparently you fail to see that the USA does not appear on that map. You have a problem with the japanese rearming but they have an aircraft carrier they call a destroyer and we can bet what it is meant to destroy. We must not get in the middle of centuries old disputes. There is a lot of unsettled business between Japan and China and I have no doubt that will lead to war one day as it has in the past. I don't doubt the japanese have nuclear capability, they would be foolish to be relying solely on your umbrella, even if that capability is only on paper

So the chinese told you to POQ, not the first time and won't be the last, next time you send a spy plane file a flight plan. Point is; you have satellites, you don't need spy planes, you were just being provocative and some low level chinese called you on it

http://www.news.com.au/world/the-war-word-is-being-increasingly-heard-as-europe-russia-china-and-the-united-states-adopt-provocative-postures/story-fndir2ev-1227371823129

next time you send a spy plane file a flight plan <<rimshot >> that's funny ! They have no right to challenge us over international air space . If they don't like it they can pound their wall of sand .

You should be glad, Clete, we came from across the water to help you bark at China who is intent on controlling so much of the ocean that so many depend on economically.

In this you proved you can get off the porch and run with the right big dog.

We don't need to bark at China, nor do we need the big dog to bark at China. Look at this through the lens of history, the Chinese are doing what they always do when they feel threatened, They are building a wall. Admittantly this wall is a little further from Beijing than usual but a wall never the less, all their walls of sand crumble in time. The only people who are threatened are you because you see some of your influence reduced. We moved to bring the Chinese in from the cold before you did and have cordial relations with them. You on the other hand feel you must tell them what to do and where they can do it by barking at them. When one dog starts barking all the dogs start barking. They are just emulating you

http://www.smh.com.au/national/china-puts-weapons-on-its-new-artificial-islands-20150527-ghaxa8.html

It seems our yankeephiles are yielding to your view however barking and dog whistling are not what is needed. What China is demonstrating is if you want something go and get it and if you feel you must defend the Phillipines after withdrawing your base then go and do that, blockade the island. You made the soviets withdraw from Cuba, make the Chinese withdraw from Spratly

No worries Clete, I realize you are doing the best you can with what you have, and that's okay, but thank the stars your government takes a wider view of the world.

You don't have to pray to the Chinese because they need your dirt though.

Pray to the Chinese, don't you mean prey on the Chinese. We have a good balance of trade with the Chinese. They like our iron ore, our coal, our gas, our wine and lots of other stuff, we like their tourists, their students, they are not loud and offensive and disrespecting of our laws. We might even have a FTA with them which is likely to benefit us more than the FTA we have with you which doesn't benefit us at all.

You see everything through the lens of an amerocentric lens, if you aren't in the centre you don't like it. Your pivot to asia was a recent idea but we recognised the need to pivot to asia twenty years ago. Suddenly you have realised that things have been going on that might get in your way and you don't like it. I hope you are not going to do as you did in the forties and goad the asians into a war

The alternative will be the Finlandization of Philippines ,and all the other nations in the South China and East China Sea , by the Chinese . Here is my prediction . Unless the Chinese back down ,there will be shooting .The state run media editorialized that unless they get their way there will be war . They will flex their muscles ;probably against the Philippines who have made a case against them based on LOST . They have already impeded and interferred with the legitimate commercial persuits of the Phillipines in the "disputed " areas . The US has a long time Mutual Defense Treaty with the Philippines that we will honor when push comes to shove . We also agreed in 2014 to 'Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement'.Defense Secretary Ash Carter and his counterpart Secretary of National Defense Voltaire Gazmin met this week to reaffirm our commitment . A peaceful resolution is preferable .... but not at the dictates of the Chinese. The US and our allies should continue to over-fly their artifical islands and should cruise through the disputed seas making it clear that we will not be prohibited from travel through international waters ,or from flying through international air space . It is the Chinese who have over-reached and it's up to them to back down. (maybe through diplomacy there is a way for them to save face as they back down . But back down they must ) .They thought that the Philippines would be an easy target ;but the Philippines have not backed down .(btw ,this started in the 1990s so it's lame to blame it on the 'pivot to Asia' .Our pivot was long over-due ). Let them try to shoot down American planes . These islands are indefensible ,and they will expose their own coast regions to attack (the areas of the nation that has shown the largest growth in the last couple decades ). For China to persue that course would be them throwing away 40 years of progress. Let them add that up on their abacus.

Sorry ;too much is at stake to allow them to summarily claim the seas where $5 trillion in trade transverses annually . (I'll put aside the obvious environmental crime they are committing by dredging in the coral reefs in the Spratleys ). You think it will end there ? What happens when the reach further south into Indonesia ,Micronesia ,Malayasia ,and even in the waters by Australia. Where is your red line ?

Tom I don't need a red line because others will draw it far further north than I might. I see it twelve miles off the coast of China but that would take a lot of muscle to enforce. I think you have the resolve to do it but in doing it you are going to destroy at least two economies. The Spratleys are a bridge too far for the Chinese but I expect that they judge that if there is conflict better it be a long way from home. As I have said before they are building a wall, it's their mentality to keep the barbarians at arms length.

They will test your resolve, but you are not dealing with Cuba now. I don't think they understand naval warfare and the potential devastation you are capable of. Also your hesitance to bring a decisive battle in Iraq against what is a minor force has given them opportunity. If you join battle with China there is the risk of opportunism on the Korean peninsula. NK will judge you cannot fight in many places at once so it could go nuclear quickly. The game here has many facits and many potential battle fields.

A misjudgement here could see open conflict in Ukraine as well as the South China Sea and Korea. It isn't that your pivot is overdue it is that you have sat on your hands too long

It isn't that your pivot is overdue it is that you have sat on your hands too long yup . I am going on the calculation and hope that they have too much to lose to persue this . They are counting on what you have correctly identified as a tepid US response to what has been ongoing for years. That has historically been a mistaken assumption.
That doesn't change the fact that they cannot be allowed to persue the course they are taking without consequences. You talk of us goading the Pacific nations into war in the 1940s . That is not true . Yes we put sanctions on an aggressive Imperial Japan that had already fought a war against Russia ;invaded China and Korea ,and was swiftly moving their empire southward in an attempt to dominate the same territory that China is making a play on today . We were in good faith negotiations with them when they attacked . They had the choice to abandon unacceptable aggression and face continued economic isolation ;back down ,or wage war against nations they had no chance of defeating . They chose the later . China should not make the same mistake thinking the US will shrink from the challenge.


The nukes won't come from us ,and I kinda doubt un-Kim takes his marching orders from Beijing .

Tom what you have here is a number of nations in various places who could take an opportunist view of your engagement elsewhere, after all what the Chinese are doing now is exactly that. They are well used to rhetoric and don't take much notice of it. You can tell them you are coming all you like and they will call your bluff. What do they have to lose, face admittantly, and that is the dangerous part of the calculation. You could easily find yourself in a negotiation that goes on for years like the tactic they used at the end of the korean war. Logistics are a big part of this and boots on the ground won't mean anything. What I see is this is a play for them to get a certain result and the Spratlys are expendiable. You need to remember a cold war with China will harm your economy too, you have allowed them to become a supplier of choice and grow their industries with your technology.

Meanwhile in the ME the carnage goes on but Daesh is taking a toll of the Iraqi and the Syrian alike demanding your involvement

You are so careless it is dangerous to be around you, numerous life fire incidents have demonstrated this, but here is the latest carelessness

US orders anthrax review after more live shipments discovered - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32941062)

Why don't you just admit you couldn't give a continential about anyone else? Go have your war, but please leave us out

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Entirely wrong Tom I don'T say appease the Chinese, go at it if you want too, but please this time, don't waste the resourses of your allies. We bled with you in Iraq, we bled with you in Afghanistan, and I have to ask for what? Please show me there was enduring change in these places. You got your trophy, OBL and you have withdrawn. What trophy do you want in the South China sea, Are you going to fight a battle for the Philippines. Neville Chamberlain is alive and well and living in Washington and I'm waiting for Obama to announce peace in our time. As far as the south china sea is concerned, we have other routes to asia, so the Phillipines can go and fight for these reefs they couldn't care less about

You know Tom both our nations were established by people who couldn't care less about what the locals thought about ownership, don't you think it a trifle self righteous to be asking the chinese what they are doing in this terra nullius

They have escalated this week . Last week they sent demands to our planes to not fly in international air space over their maritime invasion .Previously they have occupied islands that are not in their territorial waters . This week they place artillery on these artificial islands . Now that won't intimidate us .... but it is meant to send a message to their weaker neighbors that Chinese autonomy over the South China Sea is fait accompli . China will very soon force a military confrontation with either Philippines or possibly Vietnam to make their point that resistance is futile .The have instigated provocations with both countries in recent years (Vietnam they towed an oil rig into Vietnamese waters and dared them to attack it. But the Philippines is the weaker and thus more attractive victim). We should immediately begin selling defensive weapons to Vietnam. WE should make it clear that we will enforce our historical treaty commitments with Philippines .At this point ;given the fecklessness of the emperor ,the Chinese may calculate it is worth the risk to test America's resolve. Would the US defend a weak ally ? But if they are doing that then they are also risking a US response that they would not win. It would be best for all if the Chinese found a gracious and face saving way to back down. They have bitten off more than they can chew.

I ask again where is your red line ? Chinese claims in the Coral Sea ? New Guinea ?Timor Sea (why not ? they can claim like the Ruskies are doing in Ukraine that they are protecting ethnic Hakka Chinese )? Tell me what other routes do you have that easily replace travelling through the territory they are illegally claiming as their own .You would have to detour many nautical miles for that .

China may well be acting to intimidate others over this trade agreement (TPP) everyone is debating about.

Yes another yankee power grab, personally I'm against it. I can't see what my nation gets out of it

I support the emperor's efforts on this trade deal . I think it's hillarious that he has to beat down his own rank and file in Congress to get it passed ,and that he needs Republican support. I'd make him pay a heavy price for that support .But in the end..... the TPP is a good deal for the country and for your country .

I think I wait and see the text before I jump into this political football. The closer we get to actually seeing it the more everybody hollers.

Meantime the war on Islam continues, this time in Arizona.

Tense standoff outside US mosque over cartoon protest (http://news.yahoo.com/tense-standoff-outside-us-mosque-over-cartoon-protest-065056361.html)

Small group of haters exercising their rights... hood free! We have come a long way since the good ole 60's(?). The cops are in the middle keeping peace and not joining the haters with the and batons.

when they are burning alive and beheading people get back to me . Had there not been a vigilant security force at the Texas cartoon contest there would've been a massacre. And you would've blamed the victims .

No I wouldn't, I blame the PERPS who had bad intentions, and applaud the foresight of the local leaders in Garland Tx. that took proper precautions. Looks like Arizona took a page from that playbook too!

I also applaud the American Muslims in both locations for their peaceful response to the haters also.

they voiced one view . others voiced a different view. Free speech ;aint it great ? Oh yeah that's right . You would restrict "hate speech" . Who defines 'hate speech ' btw ? Does hate speech include the vile preached in the Mosque of the Wahhabis ? Or is it only a matter if it will inflame the haters to violence ?Seems to me that the haters win when speech against them is restricted .

And who ARE the haters? And why?

good question . Salman Rushdie wrote 'Satanic Verses' 1989 and the free world came to his defense. A couple beheadings and shootings later and we see the true resolve of the' free world '.

they voiced one view . others voiced a different view. Free speech ;aint it great ? Oh yeah that's right . You would restrict "hate speech" . Who defines 'hate speech ' btw ? Does hate speech include the vile preached in the Mosque of the Wahhabis ? Or is it only a matter if it will inflame the haters to violence ?Seems to me that the haters win when speech against them is restricted .

I for one don't believe in restricting hate speech, nor does it entitle others to commit violence because of it. Let me be clear when I call someone a hater it's their words and actions that I refer to, NOT what they call their god or book they worship from.

I fail to see how a group of haters choose to protest the peaceful activity of American muslims, just as the haters did protesting the peaceful activities of the 60's. But lumping all of a group into the same barrel as a few miscreants (haters also) is the favorite tool of unreasonable haters throughout history, and the world it seems.

Who are the haters? Its pretty self evident by words, and actions.


Salman Rushdie wrote 'Satanic Verses' 1989 and the free world came to his defense. A couple beheadings and shootings later and we see the true resolve of the' free world '.

The entire Islamic world didn't come after him either though, just the inflamed loony haters. Just as the entire Islamic world isn't following ISIS either. Just pockets of looney haters.

I support the emperor's efforts on this trade deal . I think it's hillarious that he has to beat down his own rank and file in Congress to get it passed ,and that he needs Republican support. I'd make him pay a heavy price for that support .But in the end..... the TPP is a good deal for the country and for your country .
Tom I do wish that just for once you would get your head out of the clouds if that is where you keep it.

there are strong disagreements between the US and negotiating parties regarding intellectual property, agricultural subsidies, and financial services
This is very familiar these are the same disagreements we had with the US when we negotiated our FTP which was not a good deal for us andhasn't done anything for our country. Why we would want the revisit this I can't say except that the sicophants anf yankeephiles are always busy but I'm against paying more for drugs so some US pharma can get rich at my expense and make no mistake the price of drugs is also a sticking point in these negotiations. This is once again the US trying to override the soveriegnty of other nations through trade agreements

The entire Islamic world didn't come after him either though, just the inflamed loony haters. Just as the entire Islamic world isn't following ISIS either. Just pockets of looney haters.

Tal I think you fail to understand Islam, Rushdie had a fatwah issued against him. That fatwah required all muslims to kill him on sight. Now the fact that many didn't know what he looked like, where he was, or how he might be found, didn't excuse any of them from not trying. So in fact the entire muslim world did come after him but as usual they proved to be ineffective. Have you not observed how muslims behave in places like Pakistan when issues arise, whole nations are inflamed. We can agree some muslims are peaceful, and some muslims are apostate, but the existence of Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Daesh, as well as others, prove that there are a significant number of muslims who hold and follow extremists views. The whole nation of Saudi Arabia follows an extreme form of Islam and promotes it throughout the world, nor is Iran backward in pushing its objectives forward. What is it you think is going on in Syria?

You may not have active islamists in your nation but I can assure you they are active in other places as demonstrated by killings and other incidents in various places

You may not have active islamists in your nation but I can assure you they are active in other places as demonstrated by killings and other incidents in various places
Maybe we're going to have to start recalling library cards we've issued to Muslims.

Clete, what percentage of Muslims are extremists?

Wondergirl you know that I don't have a precise handle on it and nor does anyoneelse and all things being relative it depends upon where you live. Let's use a well know political device to predict how many there might be. They say that for every person who writes a letter to a politician there are 500 of similar views, so for every extremist who is caught or who actually commits an offence there might be 500 of similar views. But extremists don't all manifest at the same time or in the same place. The people of Boston, Texas and various parts of the US may still harbour some among them as undoubtedly do the people of the United Kingdom, France, Spain, Australia, Indonesia, Pakistan. What I do know is there are more than 100 residents of my country fighting with Daesh and many sympathsisers still here. If there are 30,000 Daesh fighters then there might be 1,500,000 behind them. You may consider these number small but I consider them significant

I met a Muslism long ago and he came from Maynmar(Burma) This was the time of the Six Day War and he was talking Jihad. Even at this distance he held extremist views about what was taking place in the world.

If there are 30,000 Daesh fighters then there might be 1,500,000 behind them. You may consider these number small but I consider them significant
So that's what percentage?

So that's what percentage?

Percentages like statistics are the hiding place of scoundels. I know what you want is to see some small percentage and say that's insignificant but the reality is the problem is not insignificant. There are many countries of the world that have been touched by muslim extremism. Whole nations have been engulfed, others disrupted. I doubt that there is a muslim nation that has not suffered terrorism, disruption, turmoil or even insurrection and there are many others who have suffered attacks. The greatest single source of refugees and displacement is the actions of muslim extremists with millions affected

I know what you want is to see some small percentage and say that's insignificant but the reality is the problem is not insignificant.
You're a psychic now? I guess I'll call my library.

Let's just say wondergirl I can see the direction you are going in, don't need to be psychic. Ask yourself how is it that the extremists haven't been rooted out of Islam by all those peaceful Muslims. Perhaps you think it is because of freedom of speech, if so your nation is in great danger

Let's just say wondergirl I can see the direction you are going in
Actually, that WASN'T the direction I was going in.

Well I don't have a clear count on the number of Muslims, nor have I extrapolated the backing of Daesh into a backing for muslim extremism world wide so at a wild guess somewhere between 5 and 10%. Numbers in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria, Somalia, Yemen, Gaza might be higher. I draw inference from the fact that the highest particpationary support for Daesh comes from Tunisia and that Daesh is a growing force in Libya. One can understand some of this where there are places where Muslims are under extreme pressure such as 100% of the Rohingya in Maynmar driving an exodus, and in Syria, Iraq and Yemen but in large muslim countries there is support, even government support of extremist groups.

One of the reasons we cannot know with accuracy is the structure of Islam which is not coordinated but each group has its own leader and these groups don't seem to quickly oust those with extremist views

Do you also throw out the baby after a bath? Or the whole bushel of apples because one was rotten? So why would you blast the whole of Islam for the actions of a few?

Do you also throw out the baby after a bath? Or the whole bushel of apples because one was rotten? So why would you blast the whole of Islam for the actions of a few?



I think it is because when the few have acted the rest seem to be just going along for the ride. You dont see any major uprisings on condemnation from the rest of the muslim population.


Why? If it is because of fear then what kind of religion lives like that? If someone watches something happen and does nothing about it then they are just as guilty. What will happen when in this country (United States) the population of muslim reaches a point of saturation and they receive protected status and we see sharia law creep into our system on a wide spread scale?

I think history shows that every major civilization/group/tribe has experienced this same dilemma, the conquering army terrorizing the unarmed subjugated population, who flee rather than fight, and immigration patterns following wars and conflict bear that out.

I think it unreasonable to think that sharia law will ever circumvent the law of the land here in America and more likely Islam like Christianity before it will be Americanized by those that have fled here and immigrated over the last 100 years.

Fact is most Muslims reject the extreme views of Sharia fundamentalists, just as Christians reject the extreme views of their fundamentalists. Extremism still exists true, but it's not limited to a particular group/religion/or region for that matter.

Take religion out of the equation and we till have the same roots as we always have had, poverty, ignorance and isolation exploited by those who enrich their own pockets and egos. Such is the history of mans condition. The tactic of fear is universal, as are it's motive.

Tal to talk like that actually denies history. Islam has not shown itself to be moderated by contact with other cultures, it actually seeks to subvert other cultures. Sharia law becomes an issue when there are sufficient muslims in the population to push it. Already in the UK it has become an issue and even in Australia with about 5% muslims they are pushing for it, so it is only a matter of time before it becomes an issue in the US. Any push for sharia law is an expression of muslim fundalmentalism

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/america-sharia-law.html

Islam is not a religion with a social conscience at least not in the Christian way, a muslim gives alms but not in an organised fashion so don't expect them to allievate poverty. The americanisation of Christianity will lead to the decline of christianity but I doubt americans will change Islam

Islam hasn't changed since the Battle of Tours in 732 or the original jihad against non-believing Arabs 622 (Medina) -634 (Siege of Damascus ).

You are right Tom the objective is still the same the establishment of the world wide caliphate, literally one world government with everyone bowing to Mecca five times a day.

Tal every time you defend Islam this is what you defend
Foreign Correspondent: Qatar World Cup labourers in filthy conditions (http://www.news.com.au/sport/football/the-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-filthy-living-quarters-for-migrants-workers-in-qatar/story-fndkzvnd-1227379148770)

Tal every time you defend Islam this is what you defend
Foreign Correspondent: Qatar World Cup labourers in filthy conditions (http://www.news.com.au/sport/football/the-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-filthy-living-quarters-for-migrants-workers-in-qatar/story-fndkzvnd-1227379148770)


The next big Clinton scandal that no one is covering is the fact that Clinton received money from both Qatar and from FIFA . Clinton was sent at taxpayer expense to Zurich to try to get the World Cup games for the US . Instead he left with a pocket full of $$$$$$$$$$ and the games scheduled to be held in the most inapproriate place on the planet .

Much as you would like to make Clinton responsible for your failure to buy the World Cup, he was just out gunned, but with a new FIFA President you may have a chance but you will have to get in line


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32982449

When you have the two most corrupting influences on the planet in the same place, Islam and money, some one like Clinton would be out of his league

can't think of a single reason why I'd want the World Cup here .

What I want is the Clintoons frog marched to a jail cell for the organized crime ring that family is .

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/27/corrupt-fifa-has-clinton-foundation-ties-world-cup-host-qatar-gave-millions.html#

There was also no one happier than I when I learned that we would not be hosting the Olympics .

Also hope the NFL and the NY area learned their lesson and never plan to hold the Super Bowl in this area again .

Also wish they would find another city in the world to host the UN .

Now Tom you mustn't be isolationist. Wouldn't you like to host a true world series? Actually the world cup generates a lot of activity and revenue just like the olympics, we would have been happy to have it instead of Qatar which is a ridiculous place to hold it, but then we have a number of world class sporting venues so we wouldn't have to do much building. We are used to having attendences of 80 or 100,000. It might have coincided with the new Sydney airport

As to the Clintons there is a lot of corruption in high places and no one is immune it seems. No doubt we will hear much about it in the next year or so

the only corruption I've seen at their level was the Kofi Annan crime syndicate that he operated out of the UN .

Perhaps we have seen more than you, ministers of state enriching themselves, state premiers resigning rather than be impeached as I said you find these things in many places. We have some classic cases running at the moment.

Have you noted that we have moved to strip nationality from dual nationals fighting for terrorist organisations, the Muslims are very unhappy, the next move will be to strip nationality from Australians who are stupid enough to get involved

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32955016

Perhaps we have seen more than you, ministers of state enriching themselves, state premiers resigning rather than be impeached as I said you find these things in many places. We have some classic cases running at the moment.

Have you noted that we have moved to strip nationality from dual nationals fighting for terrorist organisations, the Muslims are very unhappy, the next move will be to strip nationality from Australians who are stupid enough to get involved

Unease grows over new Australian dual citizenship rules - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32955016)


I think that is a damned good step to take. We should do that as well. They do that with Former Nazi's....they should do it with Terrorists and the wannabe terrorists when they are discovered.

Yes this has wide reaching implications, just giving support in any form could get you thrown out, Apparently ASIO is trolling the files compiling the list of the first batch. I wonder if they will include some recent "migrants" who have been involved in various problems. If ASIO throws all these people out I wonder who they will watch then? We have an interesting TV program running at the moment Persons of Interest, some insights into survelliance projects of yesteryear, mainly communist sympathisers and aggitators

Talk about things coming back to haunt you.

Who would have thought that the humble jeep would have mutated into deadly weapon capable of raining death, destruction and defeat upon the Iraqi army, but now we know. Faced with the onslaught of the Humvee they cannot stand and of course these weapons were supplied by the US, probably looking for a home for their surplus equipment and captured at Mosul. Apparently nothing short of anti tank weapons can stop them presuming that shiia militia have anti tank weapons. This takes suicide bombing to a new level well above the humble truck used in previous assaults. We have been waiting for the battle of Ramadi to commence but now the reason for the delay is apparent. Dodging bullets is one thing, dodging Humvees another

The US is locked into tokenism when it comes to battling Daesh

US strategy on Iraq 'not yet complete' - Obama - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33053450)

Obama has made it clear there is no clear strategy and like it isn't as if the problem arrived yesterday. If you can't get a strategy in a year in the case of Iraq or four years in the case of Syria, then it is fairly clear the Obama won't be able to point to his legacy of defeating Daesh in Iraq or perhaps anywhere else. It seems the dashing military leaders have all retired or taken more lucerative postings and there just might be a vacuum with the CIC his own advisor. Just when you need an Eisenhower you don't have one and Obama is earning that peace prize

His strategy is to play golf until his term is up. His Generals have given him multiple options to defeat IS . He choses not to execute them.

Lt. Col Ralph Peters (Ret.)said it best : “The reason we don’t (have a strategy) is because Obama wants the impossible.” .. “He wants to defeat the Islamic State, but he doesn’t want to hurt anyone. He doesn’t want collateral damage. He doesn’t want civilian casualties. You can’t do it! And this clown coo-coo-land that Obama and his Paladins live in — it’s so dangerous to us all — on such a wide range of issues. But if you are unwilling to fight with no-holds-barred, with an enemy who’s going to fight with no-holds-barred, the enemy with no-holds-barred is going to get the better of you despite the technology, despite all your wealth.”

Sounds like the land of seal team 6 and assassination

no it's the land of "they can't have victory parades with their armored SUVs down the streets of Ramadi without getting a missile up their tail pipes. " It's the land of "they should duck when they hear or see American planes in the area. " It's the land where their leaders don't sleep so well at night wondering if tonight is the night they become rendered pink mist. It's the land where their ratline of supplies is cut off.

Sounds like the land of wishful thinking to me, the only time they see an anti tank missile is when they attack, and where are those reports of those convoys being taken out by air strikes. Let me just ramble for a moment, 2300 Humvees in Mosul and yet they are being used as a weapon in Ramadi and other places. 2,300 Humvees that is a big hard to miss parking lot. Someone has been asleep there or are the weapons just too sophisticated. Do you think a few thousand jihadists go hungry when they have a population to exploit? Not likely. They have been fighting around an oil refinery for months, not much resolve to actually get the job done, mustn't destroy the precious infurstructure

Face it Tom. Obama is asleep just like his sleepy predecessor. There is no intention to do anything about this situation beyond posturing and photo ops. I'm sure he has decided that Iran can carry this one while he makes appropriate noises

yup exactly what I wrote


His strategy is to play golf until his term is up. His Generals have given him multiple options to defeat IS . He choses not to execute them.

So if you have no answers why not stay out of the conflict?

At least he has stopped planes from flying into american skyscrapers, which is more than can be said for his predecessor.

Strange sense of history, GWB stop the planes by bombing the crap out of Afghanistan. What Obama has done is withdraw

Strange sense of history, GWB stop the planes by bombing the crap out of Afghanistan. What Obama has done is withdraw

Bush has been gone since 2009, and after more than a decade, you are supposed to go home.

What Obama has done is withdrawAnd... how has that affected the USA's safety on their soil? Other than prevent needless soldier deaths.

What it has done karma is remove the immediate threat and leave the muslims fighting among themselves, a bit of unintended divide and conquer. You must remove this paranoia, these groups have had limited ability to mount attacks and too much credence has been given to them. New York was spectacular and a shock, mainly because the US was so unprepared but what it was about was US presence in the ME principally Saudi Arabia. You failed to see that in the OBL mentality you were defiling his homeland with the presence of infidels

Maybe the closet muslim Obama understands this

Cool, then we agree.

Bush has been gone since 2009, and after more than a decade, you are supposed to go home.
we've been in Germany and Japan since 1945 . We remain in South Korea .

Yes Obama seems to be the only one who has grasped the significance of "yankee go home". I understand why you remain in three countries you have conquered, why you gave up Iraq and Afghanistan so easily eludes me but the weight of empire and history is heavy and the cost emmence

why you gave up Iraq and Afghanistan so easily eludes me me too . we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory . To be honest ,I think it's time we give up defending German beer halls ....and the Japanese are able and should be willing to contribute more to their defense .

You'll be defending german beer halls soon enough, Munich is not far from the Ukraine as Hitler pointed out so adequately. Yes by all means let Japan take on China for you, that is if they can find any young men. Your pivot to asia was foolish rhetoric fit only for electioneering and you should see the Pacific for what it is, a barrier and not your personal pond. Your nation is now some centuries old and your empire becoming shaky. You should let go gracefully, you may find allies you didn't know you had

You'll be defending german beer halls soon enough, Munich is not far from the Ukraine as Hitler pointed out so adequately. Yes by all means let Japan take on China for you, that is if they can find any young men. Your pivot to asia was foolish rhetoric fit only for electioneering and you should see the Pacific for what it is, a barrier and not your personal pond. Your nation is now some centuries old and your empire becoming shaky. You should let go gracefully, you may find allies you didn't know you had

lol you'll miss pax Americana . You may like the next global hegemon even less. In fact I'm sure you will . You know what's even worse than a uni-polar and bi-polar world ? ..... a multi-polar world . But you are used to that . You have always clung on to the skirts of the queen. Even when you had a chance to break completely free ,you voted down a republican form of government .

We voted down a form of government which was a perpetuation of what we have with a different figurehead, republican might be your intrepretation. The power in our form of government doesn't rest with the executive in the way yours does. The executive is more an idea than a position.We like the idea that our politicians have to explain themselves even if it is a bit of a bullpit, but we don't like those star chambers so popular in your form of government.

The queen is really a distant memory trotted out for rare ceremonial occasions, but if Britain leaves the EU our day may come again so we won't cut all ties. Undoubtedly the debate regarding a republic will be trotted out again probably for the next election.

What is this myth of pax-americana, you are continually at war with someone, and if you aren't actually shooting you are sabre rattling. You like the idea that you have a sphere of influence and anyone within it must toe your line, but we see the world differently. The threats to us are not the threats to you and yet we seem to be involved in fighting side by side with you

US spending on Islamic State fight totals $2.7bn - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33104829)

$9 million a day, in my simple maths that's a billion a year and so far you think you have killed 10,000 terrorsts without really gaining any territory. So that's $100,000 a terrorist, at that rate you could pay them to leave the battlefield and have the same effect. A cost benefit analysis would suggest this scenario isn't very effective and the cost is about to increase. I have a distinct feeling of dejavu and I see a Gulf of Tonkin comng on, that incident that will see a scaling up isn't far away

US spending on Islamic State fight totals $2.7bn - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33104829)

$9 million a day, in my simple maths that's a billion a year and so far you think you have killed 10,000 terrorsts without really gaining any territory. So that's $100,000 a terrorist, at that rate you could pay them to leave the battlefield and have the same effect. A cost benefit analysis would suggest this scenario isn't very effective and the cost is about to increase. I have a distinct feeling of dejavu and I see a Gulf of Tonkin comng on, that incident that will see a scaling up isn't far away

I cannot defend the way the emperor executes the war ,and just about anything else he does.

Did you not see that dates for the other two much more expensive expenditures?

What would you guys do if you were in charge?

do mean in terms of cleaning up the mess the emperor created when he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory ?

You call that a victory? There was no victory in Iraq, just swapping one fool for another.

What would you do after throwing out insults? Like, what productive things?

What would you guys do if you were in charge?

They don't let us be in change very often, we usually use the direct approach and do the unexpected. It is very clear that Daesh can only be defeated with overwhelming force, what your leader likes to describe as "boots on the ground". Was the gulf war won by a few hunded advisers? The kid gloves approach being used at the moment doesn't work and the Iraqi have no stomach for a fight and this can be understood in the context of how much war the generations have faced. They are undoubtedly a demoralised nation so standing back and saying you do it isn't the answer Flatten the place any civilians still there are hostiles

They don't let us be in change very often, we usually use the direct approach and do the unexpected. It is very clear that Daesh can only be defeated with overwhelming force, what your leader likes to describe as "boots on the ground". Was the gulf war won by a few hunded advisers? The kid gloves approach being used at the moment doesn't work and the Iraqi have no stomach for a fight and this can be understood in the context of how much war the generations have faced. They are undoubtedly a demoralised nation so standing back and saying you do it isn't the answer Flatten the place any civilians still there are hostiles
And that'll take care of the problem? The collateral damage, even to innocents, is part of the price paid?

Take charge then Clete and show us how to get the job done.

Unfortunately Tal they didn't make me CIC but once your resolve was apparent the enemy would fade away They understand only one thing; death I reckon a couple of SAS regiments could do it, yes a division should be enough

As I said wondergirl those who remain are not innocents, the innocents have fled. Were there innocents in Hiroshuma?

Unfortunately Tal they didn't make me CIC but once your resolve was apparent the enemy would fade away They understand only one thing; death I reckon a couple of SAS regiments could do it, yes a division should be enough

As I said wondergirl those who remain are not innocents, the innocents have fled. Were there innocents in Hiroshuma?
Yes, of course there were.

Clete is right

Why send more kids, when one nuke would do.

That's it Tom a deterrent is not a deterrent if it is never used and this generation has forgotten it even exists, so I'm sure there is a small town occupied by terrorists that could be the first target. The impact of their suicide bombers terrified the Iraqi army, how terrified might Daesh be at the thought they might get killed without actually getting to kill the enemy. Takes the fun out of it. They might need some more virgins to overcome the terror and once it works in one place I suggest Racca you can warn the population and then destroy the inferstructure and if they don't give up just select the target. The innocents will flee.

Look it does't even have to be a nuc, 10000 lbs of C4 makes a very big bang, what happened to those bunker buster bombs

47506

I sort of feel what's happening in Iraq and many parts of the world amounts to the same thing. Daesh are an unwanted group in Iraq unfortunately their presence creates push factors in other places. It is time the world woke up illegal immigration in any form is not acceptable

Khaled Sharrouf and Mohammed Elomar killed fighting with Islamic State in Mosul, reports say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-22/terrorists-khaled-sharrouf-mohammed-elomar-killed-in-iraq/6565162)

Well, this has got to be good news in the fight against Daesh, these fellows have been in our face demonstrating the worst of jihadism and while we wait for the Iraqi to become mobile we can be assured something is happening

2 less cockroaches is always good news .

And yet that white trash in North Carolina hasn't been squashed yet?

He's been arrested . Justice will be served. Do you have an issue with that ?

Hmmm! We'll see. In the mean time it appears there is a resurgence in Afghanistan

The country united in solidarity with the people of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal . Only the emperor with his blatantly racist comment to the pod-cast WTF ;and the Democrats are stoking the race card trying to divide the country .

Yes I can understand why he is angry, no doubt he has faced blantant racism many times in his career. The civil war was over a long time ago but the ideas behind it haven't died. We all have to deal with the problems that various races represent and it isn't easy not to be angry and that goes for both sides of the argument

You may not be willing to listen Tom, but thankfully Gov.Halley, and most of the GOP presidential hopefuls are. You cannot recognize and eliminate hidden/institutional racism if you don't acknowledge blatant racism, when it rears its head.

That's what Obama was bluntly telling you. Even HF Carson played the "race card" too, huh?

Ben Carson criticizes other Republicans for not calling Charleston murders "racist" – The Moderate Voice (http://themoderatevoice.com/206044/ben-carson-criticizes-other-republicans-for-not-calling-charleston-murders-racist/)

Did Carson crudely use the 'N' word while interviewing with a crass pod-caster ?


Nikki Halley is right about the flag . It is a flag of treason. Note that it will take a Republican Governor to end it's days of flying at the State House .

Nikki Halley is right about the flag . It is a flag of treason. Note that it will take a Republican Governor to end its days of flying at the State House .
Nikki hadn't planned to remove the flag, but the pressure got to be too much for her.

maybe you think she's a red neck racist too ?

maybe you think she's a red neck racist too ?Maybe you think she's a god to be worshipped?

maybe you think she's a red neck racist too ?
She originally was against the idea -- proud Southern (SC) tradition. Lindsey Graham is against it. too.

Did Carson crudely use the 'N' word while interviewing with a crass pod-caster ?


Nikki Halley is right about the flag . It is a flag of treason. Note that it will take a Republican Governor to end it's days of flying at the State House .

So you think there something wrong with a person of colour using that term. I expect it is in general use among them and if they could think of a good term for you they would use it, how about cack. And yes that rebel flag has been a sign of defiance and it should have been retired long ago

She originally was against the idea -- proud Southern (SC) tradition. Lindsey Graham is against it. too.
maybe it wasn't that big a deal until the Dems decided to link the flag to a crazed doped up nut job . I'll say it again . The country united behind the church ,and the Dems have been doing everything they can to link the killing to the Republicans.

But if the confederate flag is a litmus test then perhaps we should examine Bubba Clinton's record while Governor . As an example . He proclaimed that the State would celebrate Jefferson Davis day on the same day as Martin Luther King Day.

Bubba never moved to remove the stars and bars from Arkansas state flag. On the contrary ;the flag was redesigned to celebrate the Confederacy . He signed Act 116 which designated the blue star above the name Arkansas to commemorate the CSA .
He also made no secret that he considered segregationist William Fulbright his mentor .
Robert Byrd was a senior Senator from 1959 -2010. He came to the Senate as a recruiter for the KKK ,eventually rising to the rank of Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops in the Klan .
I could go on and on. The Progressive's champion Woodrow Wilson resegregated the military and was an unabashed racist . You get my point. The Dems own racism and use it to divide the country .

So you think there something wrong with a person of colour using that term of course I do . It's also completely beneath the office he holds for the emperor to use the word ;even if he was trying to make a point in using it.

If you wouldn't wave a swastika in front of a Jewish person, why would you wave a confederate flag in front of a Black person?

of course I do . It's also completely beneath the office he holds for the emperor to use the word ;even if he was trying to make a point in using it.

What was his point? To be fair you have seldom given the "emperor" much credit for dignifying the office anyway. Quite the opposite.

If you wouldn't wave a swastika in front of a Jewish person, why would you wave a confederate flag in front of a Black person?

Somewhat different significance Tal the confederacy didn't murder 12 million blacks and in saying that I am by no means endorsing slavery. It is very obvious that although the south lost the war, which wasn't altogether about slavery, they never lost the rebel spirit. They considered themselves different and probably still do. A little backward, perhaps? That bright blue star is as much a symbol of the south as the battle flag but it would not be as emotive an issue

I'll say it again . The country united behind the church ,and the Dems have been doing everything they can to link the killing to the Republicans.You can say a lot... but you be wrong.


It's also completely beneath the office he holds for the emperor to use the wordAnd Bush's maligning of the English language made him appear like an ignoramus - where was your outrage then? LOL

which wasn't altogether about slavery yes it was totally about slavery . Any other issue (excuse) you can point to goes right back to the slavery issue .


You can say a lot... but you be wrong.

And Bush's maligning of the English language made him appear like an ignoramus - where was your outrage then? LOL
Completely different . This comment wasn't an off the cuff mistake . It was an intentional use of a word that would've prompted a demand of apolgy or removal from office by anyone else . This great uniter has done all he can to stoke division in this country .

Let's get this straight, a niger calling a niger a niger is not a racist comment. Only in the twisted mind of america could it be considered so. You really have to get over yourselves. You refer to race all the time and really it is just as offensive, it just doesn't use that word. You think I want to be referred to as a white anything, or an irish anything. Your racism is astounding

What was his point? tal did you listen to him or read his quote in context ? Where he was right was in pointing out how far we've come from the pre-civil rights days to today. Where he is wrong is in saying racism is in our dna. Maybe it's built into the dna of someone who would sit for 20 years listening to Rev Wright's rants.

He specifically pointed out Jim Crow laws ;which only existed in a handful of the states . So how does that make it then a legacy of discrimination" in almost every institution of our lives " . His insults to the majority of America does not help race relations.

Almost as long a legacy is that of the progressive race baiters who exploit race for political power. I can and have pointed to the roots of progressive politics in this country and find a horrible history . Their attitudes towards people of color by the likes of Teddy Roosevelt ,Woodrow Wilson , Margaret Sanger etc that is still part of the Democrat heritage is well documented . And I'm not just talking about early 20th century . I'm talking about one of the most beloved living Democrats today .....Or do you conveniently forget this :
4752847529


Let's get this straight, a niger calling a niger a niger is not a racist comment. Only in the twisted mind of america could it be considered so. You really have to get over yourselves. You refer to race all the time and really it is just as offensive, it just doesn't use that word. You think I want to be referred to as a white anything, or an irish anything. Your racism is astounding

The truth is that it is a derogatory word that has no place in conversation today.

You posted those images giving the impression that they are official pins from their campaign. Of course they are not, they're made by people in opposition.


It's important to note that there is no indicator that these buttons were actually made and distributed by the actual Clinton-Gore campaign. The second, with its cut-out photos of the candidates, almost certainly isn't.
One indicator that it isn't official is that it lacks a union "bug," the little marker showing that a piece of campaign material was printed in a union shop. If you look at other Clinton-Gore buttons (http://www.campaignbuttons-etc.com/presidential-campaign-buttons/bill-clinton-campaign-buttons.html?page=3), nearly all — but not all — have a bug somewhere. The buttons below, from CampaignButtons-Etc.com (http://www.campaignbuttons-etc.com), have their union bugs circled.




This great uniter has done all he can to stoke division in this countryAll I see in this thread is you creating as much divisiveness as you can... every single day.

The N word is derogatory when it comes from another race that thinks they are superior and waving a flag that stands for supremacy over other races. That was the context of the president point. We have argued how the founding fathers wrote all are equal, but in practice the actions behind the words was diluted because most were not ready for such a concept.

After a few centuries, some still are NOT, and while the language of racism has been cleaned up, the practices have not, just gotten more sophisticated. How else would you explain the undying support of the alliance with Israel while thumbing your nose at your fellow Americans who came from slaves?

You even acknowledge their history and turn around and tell your own fellow Americans get over it. That's been the point all along but as was centuries ago, you don't want to hear that do you?

The N word is derogatory when it comes from another race that thinks they are superior and waving a flag that stands for supremacy over other races.


The N word is derogatory ...period . Also I already said that the flag should be removed from all States that still fly it as their official flag.


That was the context of the president point. We have argued how the founding fathers wrote all are equal, but in practice the actions behind the words was diluted because most were not ready for such a concept.



No I was correct .Where he is wrong is in saying racism is in our dna. He would only make such a comment of a country he hates .


and while the language of racism has been cleaned up, the practices have not, just gotten more sophisticated.
All I have to say is BS . Even the emperor recognized the difference between now and a generation ago.

You even acknowledge their history and turn around and tell your own fellow Americans get over it.
no, you fail to acknowledge how far the country has come.


How else would you explain the undying support of the alliance with Israel while thumbing your nose at your fellow Americans who came from slaves?
Don't even know what you are talking about or how our alliance with Israel has anything to do with race relations in the US.


You posted those images giving the impression that they are official pins from their campaign. Of course they are not, they're made by people in opposition.



All I see in this thread is you creating as much divisiveness as you can... every single day.
And all I see you doing again is throwing peanuts from the cheap seats.

And all I see you doing again is throwing peanuts from the cheap seats.You give misinformation that you think makes "the other guys" look bad. It kills any discussion. You are intentionally dishonest.

You have zero proof that it wasn't part of their official campaign . Even the Washington Compost can't say that definitively .


When Clinton was first running in 1992, his geographic background was a key advantage. Since Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law, the act that hastened the South's partisan flip, four Northern Democrats and one Southern Democrat had run for the presidency. Only the Southern one, Jimmy Carter, won — and he only won once. Clinton, a Southern governor of a state whose flag still alludes to its history in the Confederacy, needed to solidify support from nearby states to have a chance at unseating George H.W. Bush. He ended up winning Arkansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Tennessee and Georgia. A button like the one at top wouldn't necessarily have hurt.
The politics then were less complicated than they are now. It's believable that Clinton and Gore might have had a Confederate button, though we don't know for sure that they did. What the reemergence of the buttons now shows, if nothing else, is that the history of the rebellious South continues to resonate and continues to evolve, year by year, as a component of American politics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/06/22/what-those-clinton-gore-confederate-flag-buttons-say-about-politics-in-2015/

Can't prove a negative. I posted the info that said it wasn't.

Can't prove a negative. I posted the info that said it wasn't.

yes the compost referenced the union label too and decided it wasn't conclusive proof.

What's the "compost"?

What's the "compost"?
Washington Post newspaper.

How old is Tom??

Washington Post newspaper


yup the very one . The compost ....that is introducing the candidacy of Bobby Jindal by questioning his authenticity of being an 'Indian '-American.

From Piyush to Bobby: How does Jindal feel about his family’s past? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/from-piyush-to-bobby-how-does-jindal-feel-about-his-familys-past/2015/06/22/7d45a3da-18ec-11e5-ab92-c75ae6ab94b5_story.html?tid=sm_tw)

How old is Tom??
I'll pretend you didn't ask that question, ha ha. He's over 40, as far as I know. ;-)

Wow... and still calling people names like in high school... but only the ones who are democrats, notice the correct use of Bobby Jindal's name above.

Wow... and still calling people names like in high school... but only the ones who are democrats, notice the correct use of Bobby Jindal's name above.
and I'm not the one that is questioning Jindal not being brown or Indian enough or how he recognizes his heritage . If the Compost publishes crap like that then all the paper deserves to be is the lining of a bird cage .

Kind like everyone who calls Obama a muslim I guess, right?

Having moved the confederate flag from the capitol of South Carolina how will the US cope with this nest of confederates in Brazil

The town in Brazil that embraces the Confederate flag - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33245800)

It doesn't matter if the flag is not freely available in the US since it is some sort of racist symbol along with that word an american dare not speak but it is freely available in Brazil. Will this spark some sort of belated confederate tourism or even reverse migration

Hey this much more interesting than looking a Daesh videos of their use of hollywood type killing methods

Kind like everyone who calls Obama a muslim I guess, right?

You never heard that from me. The emperor claims he's Christian and I take him at his word.

Tom you take Obama at his word? But not the word "niger" give me a break please?

You have successfully kept this thread from its topic do you think we might move on and get back to where we were, there are other threads which discuss US race relations


Here we go again

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33266399

not me . You were the one who changed topics. btw ;the best place for the flag is in museums and in the nostalgic celebrations of the losers .


As for the Islamic State ;they will be defeated when the world get's tired of their attrocities.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/war-islam-811336-9.html#post3733085

So not anytime soon then it has just turned into another horror movie

So not anytime soon then it has just turned into another horror movie

yes it's true . That is why they are devising new creative ways to murder . They drowned some guys recently ..they also put an exploding necklace on another. They will be dealt with when they get stronger and becomes more than a regional threat. The lessons of history ignored again.

Meanwhile, terror spreads elsewhere

ABC offices in security lockdown after threats following Q&A Zaky Mallah episode (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abc-offices-in-security-lockdown-after-threats-following-qa-zaky-mallah-episode-20150625-ghy48b.html)

This is the result of pandering to terrorists

There is much controversy about the PM's gaff in allowing sensitive security maps to be featured in a press conference at ASIO but we shouldn't have worried all it identified is what we already knew, where the Muslins are concentrated, however intelligence is a little off as ever since there are denser concentrations to the south

47534

I wonder, did they mistake the indian population for Muslims? these guys all look alike

No wishing to be out of the headlines for long Daesh has struck in multiple places and in deadly ways, but honestly, is someone asleep out there?

yes it's true . That is why they are devising new creative ways to murder . They drowned some guys recently ..they also put an exploding necklace on another. They will be dealt with when they get stronger and becomes more than a regional threat. The lessons of history ignored again.

Here's a new twist ..... beheading for sorcery ! That should be good for about 100,000 tweets .

ISIS executes women by beheading for the first time for 'sorcery' in Syria | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144213/ISIS-executes-women-beheading-time-group-kills-two-married-couples-witchcraft-sorcery-Syria.html)


http://www.brusselstimes.com/eu-affairs/3439/a-new-transatlantic-campaign-has-pledged-to-challenge-extremist-groups-like-isil

Let's not get carried away here, what is needed is a strong attack force dealing with what is really a dispersed enemy with a small central force as I've said before a regiment or division adequately supported should do it, but the shiia militia don't have the heart for it, the Iraqi don't have the heart for it and it appears the americans who created this problem don't have the heart for it. Ramadi should have been taken long ago

Australia doesn't have the heart for it either, General Clete.

We are there but unlike other engagements in the past, we are not going to be sacrificed for nothing. If you go in we will be there just as our aircraft are already there. We have advisors and trainers on the ground just as you do because we have a vested interest in seeing this group defeated

You donn't like me telling you the way strategy should be framed but there is no substitute for direct confrontation and if you do that you had better have some allies who won't run away

Well thanks for the help, but it's not enough to commit our troop to combat in a foreign land.

Yes well I understand that you too have lost the taste for war

News in the Islamic world is certainly slow or perhaps it is that because they are not killing us we have lost interest.

Couple of things just in, the Saudi have become very upset with IS

Saudi Arabia says it stopped Islamic State attacks; 400 held (http://www.mail.com/int/news/world/3692306-saudi-arabia-stopped-islamic-attacks-400-held.html#.1272-stage-mostviewed1-1)

Hamas have become very upset with IS since it seems IS attempted to bomb their leadership. Israel attracts some strange allies. Since Iran helps Hamas out I wonder what that means for Israel who more than ever is caught in the middle and IS affiliates are now operating in the desert south of Israel. I think I might postpone that trip to Israel for another year

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33585847

Remember when the emperor called the Islamic State the "JV"team ?
Well Wednesday , FBI Director James Comey, appearing before the Aspen Security Forum was asked whether IS was now a greater threat to the U.S. than AQ.Comey said "Yes." So the JV has moved up to the Varsity team in short order under the emperor's watch . The unfortunate and tragic thing is that if the emperor had taken the advice of his General on the ground ,Gen. Ray Odierno ,the US would've left a small force in Iraq to maintain the gains of the surge ; and the Islamic State would never've taken root.

I'm not buying that a small US force would have prevented the rise of ISIS Tom, but here may be a hopeful sign,

Turkey to Let U.S. Military Use Its Base to Launch Strikes Against Islamic State - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-to-let-u-s-military-launch-strikes-against-islamic-state-from-turkish-soil-1437675582?mod=fox_australian)

Yes perhaps Turkey has finally realised the danger. We all know that unless the Muslims deal with this themselves there will be no permanent solution. The US, etc, can bomb the crap out of them but unless the ground is taken you will still be there ten years from now, just like Afghanistan

We all know that unless the Muslims deal with this themselves there will be no permanent solution.That is indeed what I very wish would happen but sadly we are not seeing it.

No they don't appear to have a heart for a fight. They seem to do well when they can overrun in greater numbers but against a determined enemy they stall. However we don't know the terrain, the weather, etc, no doubt there are reasons. Makes you wonder how they conquered these places in the first place, perhaps there was no one there

I'm not buying that a small US force would have prevented the rise of ISIS Tom, but here may be a hopeful sign,

Turkey to Let U.S. Military Use Its Base to Launch Strikes Against Islamic State - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-to-let-u-s-military-launch-strikes-against-islamic-state-from-turkish-soil-1437675582?mod=fox_australian)

Of course it would have . The Sunni triangle was pacified and the tribal leaders were doing the heavy lifting defeating AQ Iraq . The reason that the IS rose is because we left a vacuum there . The Maliki government needed a strong horse to help them ;and since we were no longer there ,he turned to Iran for support . The end result of that was that the Sunni areas were cut out of the political process . THAT is why IS was born.

Well Tom we can all recount history but new deveopments might mean that Turkey wants an end to the conflict on its border

Turkish jets strike several Islamic State targets in Syria (http://www.mail.com/int/news/us/3704252-turkish-jets-strike-islamic-targets-syria.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2)

Of course it may just be a ploy

So Turkey has shown its hand with a plan to create a buffer zone in Northern Syria which will no doubt allow them to control the kurdish population and surprise, surprise who would appear to be complicit in such a deal

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33681215

You have to feel sorry for the kurds, they would be feeling very used at this point

You have to feel sorry for the kurds, they would be feeling very used at this point

Yes they have been screwed by everyone for centuries. They' were screwed by Sykes-Picot treaty . The Kurds have been screwed by the Arabs, Persians ,Turks ;and now the emeror's US .

Yes they need a Salahadin to emerge again

That news headline couldn't have said more about the US decision to partner with Turkey in the Syrian conflict. This could mean they actually swap one sunni muslim adversary for another as Turkey targets US allies in the fight against IS or daesh

ISIS: Turkey joins US in fight against terrorists (http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/is-this-the-united-states-biggest-mistake-in-the-middle-east/story-fnh81ifq-1227461288173)

The US may be playing into daesh hands by allowing their advesaries the kurds to be targeted. Anything that weakens opposition to daesh is not the way to go as it may allow daesh to breakout of Mosul and take more of northern Iraq. A daesh victory there is a victory for Turkey in their fight against Kurdish nationalism and Turkey's targeting of the kurds places them squarely on the side of daesh. Should Turkey become destabilised by a kurdish insurrection an opportunistic daesh could make incursions into turkish territory. Daesh now control part of the turkish border meaning there must be cooperation between daesh and turkey for border crossings to be made

That news headline couldn't have said more about the US decision to partner with Turkey in the Syrian conflict. This could mean they actually swap one sunni muslim adversary for another as Turkey targets US allies in the fight against IS or daesh

ISIS: Turkey joins US in fight against terrorists (http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/is-this-the-united-states-biggest-mistake-in-the-middle-east/story-fnh81ifq-1227461288173)

The US may be playing into daesh hands by allowing their advesaries the kurds to be targeted. Anything that weakens opposition to daesh is not the way to go as it may allow daesh to breakout of Mosul and take more of northern Iraq. A daesh victory there is a victory for Turkey in their fight against Kurdish nationalism and Turkey's targeting of the kurds places them squarely on the side of daesh. Should Turkey become destabilised by a kurdish insurrection an opportunistic daesh could make incursions into turkish territory. Daesh now control part of the turkish border meaning there must be cooperation between daesh and turkey for border crossings to be made

The Turks are playing a double game. There is no doubt that they have helped the IS under the guise of them being anti-Assad forces . The fact they get a wink and nod from the US while taking a wack at the Kurds is a bonus to them.

Yes once again the US has strange bedfellows, lots of end justifies the means thinking implicit in allowing the Turks to wack the Kurds. It is a pity if you are not in the NATO club, you are fair game and the beauty of it is, they are your allies so no recriminations.. Daesh are sunni muslims no doubt helped by many until they become an embarrassment. Proxy wars are dirty politics. Maybe this will become an arab/turk stouch, as the turks are allies this is an excuse for international boots on the ground, you can bet that at the end of it it will be hard to find a rebel group anywhere

I expect Obama is polishing up his peace prize, there is not much else left in his legacy

Is it just me? or is it that the urgency appears to have gone out of dealing with Daesh? I expect stalemate does that to you when another surge isn't in the offering. I understand a little of the ME and the fighting season appears to be spring and autumn, while the rest of the year is either too hot or too cold, meanwhile these terrorists are given the opportunity to consolidate their position and the world is flooded with refugees. Iraq and the shiia have proven to be paper tigers and we are back to the position that the artificial union that is Iraq should give way to the reality that there are three distinct groups or nations, Kurdistan, Sunnistan and Shiiaistan who are capable of governing themselves but not for the greater good

Yeah its just you. Hard to focus on the just ME when so many other things are going on around the globe. Big fires in the US, China blowing up, and terrorists in Bangkok, to name a few are distracting.

Fires in the US, didn't hear about that, had some of our own, didn't make the international news, as you said too many other things going on. Yes China inevietably reaps from corruption and poor safety standards, tons of sodium cyanide stored with ammonium nitrare who would have thought, and terrorists well that's not new. You see tal I sort of scan the whole news front and I sort of think the actions of thousands of terrorists affecting the lives of millions might contain some interest but I expect it quickly gets old when after all there are riots nearby

News has reached us that an airstrike took out a major daesh leader in Iraq and this has helped to stall the daesh offensive. I wonder, whatever happened to carpet bombing. Surely when you know you have a large number of the enemy in a particular place it is an offensive weapon

Fires in the US, didn't hear about that, had some of our own, didn't make the international news, as you said too many other things going on.
mismanagement by the National Forest Service .Too much undergrowth ;not enough controlled burns and logging .
I could save the government a lot of money . Let the wild fires burn except where they threaten residential areas .

Just has to be mismanagement and not budget cuts or the weather??

the weather is a contributory factor. The truth is that if nature was permitted to work it's magic . Smaller fires would've naturally started and would've cleared out much of the underbrush that fuels these larger fires. Yes it is mismanagement ;the unintended consequences you keep talking about .

In their defense ,they are constantly under pressure by envirowacko organizations who oppose control burns ,grazing ,logging on public lands.

You talk about funding ;but the truth is that the healthy forest initiative was passed to remedy the situation we are in today . But instead ,the law has been tied up in one court after another .So what happens is that all the growth fuels these fires that destroy not only the forests ,but also the endangered species the envirowackos claim to want to protect.
Perhaps if they were doing their jobs properly and competently ,funding would be available to them from the money saved funding fire fighting units .
Past Forest Mismanagement Helps Spawn Megafires | Jefferson Public Radio (http://ijpr.org/post/past-forest-mismanagement-helps-spawn-megafires#stream/0)

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Staying off theme for a moment fire is a great management tool but it takes a skilled hand to avoid it becoming a problem, we often have fuel load burns get out of hand if the wind shifts or rises but even with that you cannot stop big fires happening, all it takes is lightning or an idiot

Could we apply the same theory to dealing with daesh, a coordinated number of small strikes to burn out the underbrush and prevent them from massing

I'm more into the Curtis Lemay solution.

Forgive me Tom if I'm not up on the finer points, and that places you politically too, but isn't that what I suggested or do you just want to level any city held by daesh? Your solution suggests the civilian population is the enemy, whereas the enemy is the same enemy that existed in 2003 with a somewhat different focus. The shiia Iraqi's are actually fighting the sunni baathists with some very changed fundamentalist ideals. They created this situation so what? Should the sunni population pay? the Sunni Baathist are vowed not to stop until they take Baghdad and thus the Iraqi government. You and I both know that means genocide they will settle all their old scores

The question we have to ask is has this become a conventional war where massed armies can have at it? Daesh took territory because the Iraqi army wouldn't fight, they were cowered, probably by suicide bombing and I cannot see anything has changed. Daesh have filled a vacuum in both Iraq and Syria and recently their turkish allies provided them with air power. I think we should all withdraw from this islamist double game, protect the Kurds and let the locals handle it.

I think what Tom wants is 100,000 troops and a trillion bucks just to get started.

No Curtis Lemay believed he could win by saturation bombing and he almost proved it, he wants 100 B-42 to kill 100,000 civilians and Daesh is just collateral damage. I have no doubt that would suit Iraq too. Pacify the criticism with military force, that is what actually allowed daesh to gain a hold in Iraq. I don't know why they don't use that solution on Racca

Forgive me Tom if I'm not up on the finer points, and that places you politically too, but isn't that what I suggested or do you just want to level any city held by daesh? Your solution suggests the civilian population is the enemy, whereas the enemy is the same enemy that existed in 2003 with a somewhat different focus. The shiia Iraqi's are actually fighting the sunni baathists with some very changed fundamentalist ideals. They created this situation so what? Should the sunni population pay? the Sunni Baathist are vowed not to stop until they take Baghdad and thus the Iraqi government. You and I both know that means genocide they will settle all their old scores

The question we have to ask is has this become a conventional war where massed armies can have at it? Daesh took territory because the Iraqi army wouldn't fight, they were cowered, probably by suicide bombing and I cannot see anything has changed. Daesh have filled a vacuum in both Iraq and Syria and recently their turkish allies provided them with air power. I think we should all withdraw from this islamist double game, protect the Kurds and let the locals handle it.

maybe the 1940s was a more logical time . At least LeMay took it out on the civilian population of the enemy . Does anyone shed a tear for those lost by the Allied air raids of Caen ? Allied bombing of Normandy caused at least 50,000 civilian casualties .... and these were the people we were liberating .

But these are Muslims Tom you would be accused of being terrorists and genocidal maniacs and besides, Daesh hasn't actually attacked you other than the assassination of an american prisoner. It you did it you would have every muslim howling for your blood.. Now when they get to Baghdad and take out the american embassy...

You are a hopeless romantic for the far off days of yesteryear,Tom. Surely we can do better than scorch the whole freakin' earth to have some peace.

Congrats on your upgrade to TIE!!

I think he has lost the plot, there are a lot of things not acceptable today that would have been acceptable then. Do you know Lemay phosphorous bombed the Japanese, We got very up in arms when the Israeli's used phosphorous shells in Gaza. We no longer spray populations with DDT or defoliate the whole countryside with agent orange and even laying mine fields is out of fashion. The WWII solution would be to surround the cities with mine fields. If we were back in the good ole days of 1945, we would take out Racca with a nuke and call it game over

Congrats on your upgrade to TIE!!

wow I wasn't paying attention because I have a bye week . How did that happen ? Cool ,that's 5 weeks I haven't lost . Now do your part and whip the cheese heads .

Yes thse is nothing more important than the game

Ya gotta relax and enjoy when you can. :D

I do but I have long lost interest in sports

I think he has lost the plot, there are a lot of things not acceptable today that would have been acceptable then. Do you know Lemay phosphorous bombed the Japanese, We got very up in arms when the Israeli's used phosphorous shells in Gaza. We no longer spray populations with DDT or defoliate the whole countryside with agent orange and even laying mine fields is out of fashion. The WWII solution would be to surround the cities with mine fields. If we were back in the good ole days of 1945, we would take out Racca with a nuke and call it game over

Clete and tal ;You will recall that it was my plan to keep a sufficient deterent force in Iraq until the government could handle security on their own. It is the policy of abandonment and retreat by the emperor that has led to the current situation where it may take a bloodier and nastier solution. Clete ,tell me where precision pin pricks have won . Your solution lends itself to a slow bleed ,prolonged and ultimately costlier solution ;even if victory is the endgame (which it often isn't) . Spare me the Marquis of Queensbury rules . Modern ROE get too many of the good guys killed .

Tom I have said before we do one of two things, have an all out effort or remove ourselves and leave them to solve it themselves. You want to blame Obama for this situation, that gives you a cheap political shot, but you will recall that the Iraqis want you to leave so they could manager their own affairs without being an occupied country. It hasn't worked out because of their stupid tribalism and religious nonsense, predictable, but you cannot save people from themselves.

The rules are the rules Tom I don't make them. But don't bring up the strawman of deterrent force, when you had a reduced presence it didn't work and you had to have the surge to secure the country. I think it tells us they can't govern themselves and they arn't willing to fight a determined enemy. Tom these are a defeated people. Saddam bullied them and they did not rise up, the US defeated them twice, three times if you count the surge. There are few people left who have ever known peace and prosperity, the Kurds maybe. The three state solution was a better solution and should have been implemented, This would not have happened if that had been done.

but you will recall that the Iraqis want you to leave so they could manager their own affairs without being an occupied country A status of forces agreement was in force when the emperor assumed the throne . That was an agreement that the twice elected Iraqi government negotiated . No ,you have it backward . The emperor pronounced that we were going to leave regardless of the security situation .So the Iraqi government had no choice but to turn to the Iranians for security agreements. That came with a quid pro quo from Iran regarding Shia dominance in the government instead of the shared governance that was working . It was that decision that led to the ressurection of the Sunni resistance (aka Islamic State ) .


The three state solution was a better solution and should have been implemented, This would not have happened if that had been done.
Wrong again .The 3 state solution is what you now have de facto. It guarantees civil war between the Shia and Sunni populations ,and the gobbling up of the Kurdish region by Turkey and Iran .

No Tom what you have now is insurrection fuelled by shiia injustice. A three state solution wouldn't have resulted in civil war because they would have governed themselves.. You must stop swallowing the party line. There are viable alternatives to the Bushe Democracy of Iraq