The Daily Caller has obtained information from arrest records of many of the occupiers and it seems as if a lot of these folks really are the spoiled, privileged one percenters themselves.

NYC arrest records: Many Occupy Wall Street protesters live in luxury (http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/nyc-arrest-records-many-occupy-wall-street-protesters-live-in-luxury/)

There's a pretty nice pad here in Texas that one came from:

http://dc-cdn.virtacore.com/2011/10/5-e1319753185379.png

By the way, I've never worn a $300 pair of jeans (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047664/Occupy-Wall-Street-Children-1-good-time-protests.html). Maybe that's partly why I still have money to buy food.

But smoothy says they are dirty hippies! It's all so confusing the messages you give us.

More confusing is this:

For each of the 984 Occupy Wall Street protesters arrested in New York City between September 18 and October 15, police collected and filed an information sheet recording the arrestee’s name, age, sex, criminal charge, home address and — in most cases — race. The Daily Caller has obtained all of this information from a source in the New York City government.What the hell happened there? The police freely give out that info? Can we get a link to those information sheets too?

Police records are not such a private thing (https://www.google.com/search?q=police+records&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) you know.

Wow, that's nasty. Ok, post the ones from the people in question. I've been conditioned here to not trust the media so it's best to do our due diligence.

Are the occupiers the 1 percent? Hello Steve:

So what if they are? You're fond of saying people like Al Gore can't complain about the environment unless he sheds himself of ALL vestiges of modern living... I guess you're saying the same thing about this wealthy demonstrator...

Well, you're WRONG about Gore, and you're WRONG about the rich kid. In this great country of ours, you don't have to show membership in any group in order to take to the streets. All you have to do is be PISSED and these people are.

excon

Forget the hippies in New York, what about the peope in Oakland? I would say they were the 99%!

Occupy Oakland Hosts General Strike - Local News - San Francisco Bay Area, CA - San Francisco, CA - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45134838)

Pissed, ex, that has different connotations depending upon where you live.

If I understand you, they are angry and shiftless enough so they don't have to work. On the other hand the term, where I come from means legless, falling down, drunk. From descriptions I've heard both might be right

I don't think you can say all those people in all those cities are shiftless, pissed, as in angry, YES.

Well Tal they don't seem to have anything better to do. We have them here too, this nonsense is not isolated to the US of A, but if you scratch them you might find a professional agitator under the vaneer

By the way, do I read between the lines that you might be in favour of these actions?

Forget the hippies in New York, what about the peope in Oakland? I would say they were the 99%!

Occupy Oakland Hosts General Strike - Local News - San Francisco Bay Area, CA - San Francisco, CA - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45134838)

Especially the ones that smashed windows like as if it was Kristallnacht

especially the ones that smashed windows like as if it was KristallnachtHello tom:

Or, like the ones who broke windows and ENDED the war in Vietnam.

excon

That's an interesting point . Such movements as OWS does breed movements like Bill Ayers Weather Underground. He's proud of his bombs.

Hello Steve:

Hello ex, what are you doing here?


So what if they are?

You're very vocal about not liking Rush Limbaugh because he's a hypocrite. Yeah well, I keep getting told that the occupiers are just poor down on their luck people that can't catch a break. Nah, they're hypocrites.


Well, you're WRONG about Gore, and you're WRONG about the rich kid. In this great country of ours, you don't have to show membership in any group in order to take to the streets. All you have to do is be PISSED and these people are.

Yep, never once said they don't have the right so I'm not wrong (about Gore either, another HYPOCRITE), but I feel no pain for college grads wearing $300 jeans, carrying their iPhones and Macs protesting how mistreated they are. Especially those who live in houses 5 times the size of mine.

Forget the hippies in New York, what about the peope in Oakland? I would say they were the 99%!

Occupy Oakland Hosts General Strike - Local News - San Francisco Bay Area, CA - San Francisco, CA - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45134838)

Yeah I know, the ones who want to "blockade everything".

There were merchants that put signs in their windows showing support for the rabble. Why ? Not because they agree . They just didn't want their shops to suffer the same fate as the Whole Foods grocery store.
What Have Protesters Done to Oakland's Beloved Whole Foods? (http://gawker.com/5855846/what-have-protesters-done-to-oaklands-beloved-whole-foods)
Hmm doing violence to a civilian population to achieve a political goal... the very definition of terrorism.

If I understand you, they are angry and shiftless enough so they don't have to workHello clete:

No, you DON'T understand me. You're not even listening to me. You're listening to people who don't LIKE the protesters, so you call them names. Kind of like Qadaffy called HIS demonstrators Al Quaida... He's TOAST, by the way.

I'm one of the protesters. I work. How do you explain ME?
Hello ex, what are you doing here?Hello Steve:

They decapitalized my e.
like Bill Ayers Weather Underground. He's proud of his bombs.Hello tom:

Yeah, like you're proud of your cops.

excon

Hmm doing violence to a civilian population to achieve a political goal .... the very definition of terrorism.
I know, just like all the tea party supporters:
Tea Party Getting Violent? 10 House Dems Report Threats, Vandalism - Crimesider - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20001259-504083.html)
Or tea baggers bringing weapons to protests.

Yup I condemn those acts too.

We condemn violence for the other protests as well.

I don't see a good outcome to this . I see more of what we saw in London and Rome and Athens . I see Seattle 1999 . Not a fringe group of bad apples ,but a whole movement being coopted by anarchists .
Already there are sections of Zucotti park taken over by such groups .

Hmm doing violence to a civilian population to achieve a political goal .... the very definition of terrorism.Hello again, tom:

Watch the video. See the cop who throws a flash bang grenade into the group of protesters??

What is his purpose OTHER than to TERRORIZE that group of AMERICANS?? Are they doing something wrong? Watch it twice if you have to. To me, what that slimy cop is doing is the very definition of TERRORISM. But, that's just me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ

excon

They decapitalized my e.

LOL, chalk one up for the little guy.

Hello again, tom:

Watch the video. See the cop who throws a flash bang grenade into the group of protesters??

What is his purpose OTHER than to TERRORIZE that group of AMERICANS?? Are they doing something wrong? Watch it twice if you have to. To me, what that slimy cop is doing is the very definition of TERRORISM. But, that's just me.

Oakland Policeman Throws Flash Grenade Into Crowd Trying To Help Injured Protester - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ)

Excon

Um ;would that be before or after the peaceful protesters
Broke
into and occupied a downtown building and set several simultaneous fires," the statement read. "The protesters began hurling rocks, explosives, bottles, and flaming objects at responding officers. Several private and municipal buildings sustained heavy vandalism. Dozens of protesters wielding shields were surrounded and arrested."
Peaceful Occupy protest degenerates into chaos - US news - Life - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45144941/ns/us_news/?ocid=ansmsnbc11)

I know, just like all the tea party supporters:
Tea Party Getting Violent? 10 House Dems Report Threats, Vandalism - Crimesider - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20001259-504083.html)
or tea baggers bringing weapons to protests.

Yeah, just like (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/11/03/more-ugly-occupy-oakland-pictures-that-wont-make-msm-front-pages/) the Tea Party.

Hello Steve:

If you (and all the REST of the right wingers) would just stop watching FOX news, you'd see that there are more similarities between the groups than there are differences.

But, the right wing is soooo hung up on these ______ (insert insult), that they'll NEVER see the connection... That doesn't bode well for our country.

excon

I haven't posted anything from Fox News and if you want to talk insert insult here _______ just listen to Obama administration officials (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/1/inside-the-beltway-556217909/).

So here's your chance, list the similarities.

Hello Steve:

If you (and all the REST of the right wingers) would just stop watching FOX news, you'd see that there are more similarities between the groups than there are differences.

But, the right wing is soooo hung up on these ______ (insert insult), that they'll NEVER see the connection... That doesn't bode well for our country.

excon

The big difference is that the OWS wants more government command and control. We see that as the big problem.

the big difference is that the OWS wants more government command and control. We see that as the big problem.
How else will things get done? Will WS voluntarily help and contribute?

the big difference is that the OWS wants more goverment command and control. We see that as the big problem.Hello tom:

If one sees the financial collapse as a direct result of de-regulation, then regulation is what's wanted and needed... I don't see how you could possibly see it any other way. But, you do.

Since that's so, there won't BE any compromise and it makes who wins all that much more important... Look. There's no question, that if the wingers win, they will DISMANTLE the progress made over the last century. If progressives win, and if they have BALLS, we can rein in the banks... No, we can break them up so they're no longer too big to fail...

excon

Oh yes indeed I do. I see it as government trying to do good by turning people who couldn't afford it into home owners ,and FORCING the lending institutions to give mortgages to people who historically did not qualify .

You want to know what really happened read
“Reckless Endangerment,” by Gretchen Morgenson, a New York Slimes columnist, and Joshua Rosner, a housing finance expert.

These OWS people ought to be demanding to know why clowns like James Johnson ,Andrew Cuomo, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank among others aren't wearing horizontal stripes .

Hello again, tom:

It just isn't true... Barney Frank wrote a letter to BofA asking them rescind their $5 fee for using a debit card.. The bank said screw you, Barney Frank.. So, I'm having trouble seeing how he FORCED them to lend BILLIONS to unqualified people causing the banks to go under... I'm just having a hard time with that..

Plus, I recall you saying the Community Reinvestment Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act)was the FIRST of many such programs that FORCED the banks to do what NO bank in their right mind would do, unless government held a gun to their heads...

The law is an anti redlining law. It doesn't FORCE the banks to lend to people who aren't credit worthy. It just says that banks can't discriminate, which is what they WERE doing.

The truth of the matter is, the banks didn't care if the mortgages were any good, because they could just repackage them and sell those piles of trash to the world. And, that's exactly what they did. They must be prevented from doing it again.

excon

Simple solution for anyone who is truly free market as you claim to be. Remove FDIC insurance for any institution that combines traditional banking with investing . If B of A wants to combine those services then it's buyer beware.
But I'm more than willing to bet that such a change would create separate intuitions that are less likely to be "too big to fail" .

BTW ;the puny debit card fee that they were going to charge was an attempt to recoup losses that would've happened by the Durbin provisions of Frank Dodd legislation .

That whole thing went viral and BofA withdrew it and will make up the loss in a more opaque way. Good Job!!
Meanwhile the President and his bureaucracy is poised to tack on hundreds of dollars in extra fees for air travel and we don't hear a peep about it.
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011-09-27/Proposed-airline-ticket-tax-bump-has-tempers-soaring/50573866/1

Yeah that should help create more jobs!!

BTW ;the puny debit card fee that they were going to charge was an attempt to recoup losses that would've happened by the Durbin provisions of Frank Dodd legislation .

That whole thing went viral and BofA withdrew it and will make up the loss in a more opaque way. Good Job!!!
$5 per month for all users of a debit card is puny to you but to millions it wasn't. In fact they voted with their wallets, closing BoA accounts and moving to Credit Unions, This is free enterprise in action!
Some banks even tried to deny people the opportunity to close their bank accounts.
If those same banks can't stay in business without higher swipe fees then they should be allowed to fail, right?

Absolutely ;clearly I was opposed to TARP and any bail out of what is mistakenly called "too big to fail" . Nations default but banks and auto companies aren't allowed to ? Ridiculous .

I applaud the people who changed banks . That is the American way... as opposed to the goons who have gone into banks to terrorize the tellers . I only tell you that the other banks are making similar provisions that are under the radar to recoup the difference .
My other point is clear .
BofA would not have tried that except for silly provisions introduced by Sen Durbin in a last minute amendment to Dodd Frank that is clearly bad lagislative over-reach ,and a perfect example of the unintended consequences of over -regulation.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/_debit_card_dud_w1VfZwHwJTR79g8s8go06H

Developer with shotgun scared off Oakland rioters (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/03/BACM1LQ5FU.DTL&tsp=1)

My kind of guy. Really people, you no longer have the public's support, you're fighting amongst yourselves, people are getting sexually and physically assaulted, riots breaking out... go home.

My kinda guy. Really people, you no longer have the public's support, Hello again, Steve:

Is Assad your kind of guy too? I'll bet not, because I think you ARE a freedom loving guy. But, I'm perplexed about why you think shooting protesters in ONE country is cool, but in another, you don't. And, what REALLY perplexes me is, the people who you think it's OK to shoot, are AMERICANS! But, I'm ALWAYS perplexed by you guys.

excon

And I thought you were one of those guys who think it's cool for someone to protect themselves and their property.

Hello again, tom:

Well, I've been gone for a while.

excon

OK... One businessman who is not a 1% decided to defend his business... another one , Men's Wearhouse ,shut down early and left signs pleading with the protesters not to trash their business. I doubt if the ownership of Men's Wearhouse is part of those 1%ers.



How about state sponsored rioting ? Oakland Mayor Jean Quan ;herself a former radical activist , gave city employees the day off to join the protests at the same time that she lined up the police force against the protest. This after she begged Washington for more Fed funds for the port.

The rioters prevented truckers from doing their jobs by setting bonfires in the streets by the port. Were those truckers part of the 1% ? No .
For at least one shift ,thousands of workers at the port were prevented from doing their jobs.

I thought this was about jobs . Why are the protesters destroying places like Whole Foods that actually hire people ?

The truth is that this is not about jobs in the private sector . This is about public union jobs... and extension of Wisconsin.

I have heard more than one protester and pundit say that the movement needs a "Kent State moment"... and it appears that they are pushing the movement to that end.
The Bay Area has some history of this... it was called 'Bloody Thursday'.

I thought this was about jobs ..Hello again, tom:

Nahhh... That's the problem. Somebody, probably FOX news or where ever you get your news these days has NO clue WHAT the protesters want... Hell, the protesters themselves don't know what they want...

What they KNOW is that they've been screwed over big time and they're pissed off. I don't blame 'em. In fact, I'm ONE of 'em, and I HAVE a job. Certainly, misunderstanding the nature of the revolt, you'd naturally think that the owners of Mens Warehouse wouldn't be in sympathy with the demonstrators... It's a natural reaction when your knee jerks.

excon

PS> It's a good thing I ended my hiatus. You guys NEED me to tell you what's up.

You are right about one thing.. the useful idiots have no clue about what they want. Which brings us back to the OP.
The NY Post and the Daily Caller investigated the backgrounds of the protesters arrested for shutting down the Brooklyn Bridge (and screwing over working class commuters in the process) .They found almost all of them to be trust-fund pampered "screwed over ""youths "from well-off homes.
Here is the common chant :
What do we want ? We don't know ! .....When do we want it ? Now !

If you don't listen now, instead of nit-picking individuals and broad brushing the whole by the ones you don't like, then of course it gets louder, and uglier. But the right rather wait for them to go home, or call out the national guard. To bad you guys can only see this through tunnel vision, but when faced with enough anger by your fellow citizens, maybe you guys will figure it out.

They don't have a right to burn, loot, and destroy. But they darn do have a right to assembly. Just because you don't understand what they are hollering about NOW! You will because I doubt they go away, despite your denial.

But conservative republicans are hardly famous for having an open mind, or good listening skills, especially when there own self interest conflicts with everyone else's.

Shame really, that it takes so much energy just to get your attention. Because most of the problems come from not being able to acknowledge the fact there is more than one way to skin a cat, and they way you want it done doesn't WORK for everybody. That's where the lack of good listening skills come in, so you can at least LEARN a better way.

Or maybe you don't want people to know you ain't going to listen to anybody else because you have another agenda that motives you. Like tanking everything because that makes this a one term presidency for the guy in the white house, whom you hate more than you love your own country. OR, you will protect your masters, corporations and banks, no matter how they screw you, and everyone else.

OR, are you afraid of what GROVER will do? OR all of the above.

Hello again, Steve:

Is Assad your kinda guy too? I'll bet not, because I think you ARE a freedom loving guy. But, I'm perplexed about why you think shooting protesters in ONE country is cool, but in another, you don't. And, what REALLY perplexes me is, the people who you think it's ok to shoot, are AMERICANS!! But, I'm ALWAYS perplexed by you guys.

excon

I'm perplexed, too. He didn't shoot anyone so I have no idea what you're talking about, he was defending his property.

These people have every right to protest, but they don't have the right to "occupy", they don't have the right to violate property rights, they don't have the right to violate the law of the land.

I thought you were one of those "your rights end where my nose begins” kind of guys. No?

How about that Jon Corzine! The perfect example of everything wrong with the country... the Democrat elite oligarch who steals when he's in the private sector and spends recklessly when in a position of public power.

THE OWS crowd should string him up in effige but the news about his chicanery is over -shadowed by allegations about what Cain might have done to unnamed staffers.
When these clowns marched up to the Upper East Side they conveniently ignored Soros home on their way to the Koch home.

They have to ignore Soros, he's probably the one feeding and funding them... while that 1 percenter Michael Moore joins in the protest against people like him.

By the way, I say Cain is a victim of a racially motivated attack.

LOL, I thought you righties were free market traders, and believed that the markets choose winners and losers? Corzine lost.

Oh, that's right, its only a story when democrats lose. Then repubs call for "investigations".

Investigate the DONALD, why don't you. Or why congress wants to cut food stamps, instead of making jobs! Will they cut corporate welfare while they are at it? I doubt it.

We must spend all our time making sure "In God we Trust" is everywhere!!

We must spend all our time making sure "In God we Trust" is everywhere!!!!!!!

Read the Daily Digest (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/B?r112:@FIELD%28FLD003+d%29+@FIELD%28DDATE+2011110 3%29#) from that day... or any day. Congress does multitask and they took up jobs bill that day. Give me a few minutes and I'm sure I can find plenty of time wasted on goofy stuff by Dems.

In fact, yesterday Diane Feinstein et al introduced the America's Cup Act of 2011 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.+1759:), I'm sure that was important.

Barbara Lee et al introduced a resolution (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.+Con.+Res.+84:#) "Recognizing the disparate impact of climate change on women and the efforts of women globally to address climate change." My God how can we live without recognizing that?

Doris Matsui et al were busy (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.+Res.+454:#) "Supporting the goals and ideals of National Community Gardening Awareness Month." We have a community gardening awareness month?

LOL, I thought you righties were free market traders, and believed that the markets choose winners and losers? Corzine lost..

Nope, Corzine was peddling influence (http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/as-regulators-pressed-changes-corzine-pushed-back-and-won/) to write his own regulatory rules, exactly the kind of nonsense that Obama (hypocritically) and the occupiers are so pi$$ed off about right now.

Hello again,

Truth is, they're ALL crooks. Be fine with me if we throw 'em ALL out and start over.

excon

Nope, Corzine was peddling influence (http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/as-regulators-pressed-changes-corzine-pushed-back-and-won/) to write his own regulatory rules, exactly the kind of nonsense that Obama (hypocritically) and the occupiers are so pi$$ed off about right now.

Act like a repub, go to jail ike one, HEHE counldn't resist Steve, and if he is found guilty, I got no sympathy, and I doubt anyone ese does either, besides his family. Especially not the prez, or the occupiers.

Act like a repub, go to jail ike one, HEHE counldn't resist Steve...

That's OK, I intend to have the last laugh on the football field this weekend. :D

They are certainly 99% of the worst behaved people of the country.

Badly behaved? It seems the southern variety would disagree with you. They call for motions and vote on them, quite strange behaviour for the great unwashed
Occupy Melbourne protesters take over Treasury Gardens | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/occupy-melbourne-protesters-take-over-treasury-gardens/story-fn7x8me2-1226184516938)

Up here at just one of them, in California, forget what one, there has been 20 sexual assaults, and at least two reported rapes. They themselves have admitted there are more unreported ones.

One of the People raped was a young Deaf man.

Nice bunch of people those protesters are here. Its unlikely the others are much if any better.

Hello smoothy:

I heard the tea partiers were corn holing each other at their gatherings. It was on the internet.

excon

Hello smoothy:

I heard the tea partiers were corn holing each other at their gatherings. It was on the internet.

excon

Not one case of that happening... not one case of trouble or mass arrests either... and not one example of them creating bio-hazard superfund sites in their wake either. The parks the Bowel Movement have been trashing won't be safe for generations from the extensive fecal coliform contamination.

Not one case of that happening......Hello smoothy:

But, I heard about it. It was on the internet. Why is my rumor less believable than yours? Well, it AIN'T. Tea Partiers LOVE corn holing each other. I believe it. What else matters?

excon

Hello smoothy:

But, I heard about it. It was on the internet. Why is my rumor less believable than yours?? Well, it AIN'T. Tea Partiers LOVE corn holing each other. I believe it. What else matters?

excon

Schizophrenics hear voices in their heads... don't mean there really are...

Difference here is there are actual police reports and arrest records to back it up the depravity and illegal behavior of "The Bowel Movement"... And those are just the reported incidents... nobody knows how many unreported ones...

Difference here is there are actual police reports and arrest records to back it up the depravity and illegal behavior... nobody knows how many unreported ones....Hello smoothy:

I heard there were actual police reports and arrest records of the corn holing going on in the tea party... There's no telling how many people got corn holed and didn't report it.. It was really ugly, I heard. It was on the internet. Really. It's true.

excon

Hello smoothy:

I heard there were actual police reports and arrest records of the corn holing going on in the tea party... There's no telling how many people got corn holed and didn't report it.. It was really ugly, I heard. It was on the internet. Really. It's true.

exconCare to provide any link... even from a lefty news source?

Its easy to Google up reports of the Poo in the Park assaults.



Here is one where they are telling people to keep it quiet so its not all reported...


http://www.verumserum.com/?p=31759

And a whole list... take your choice.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=occupy+wall+street+sexual+assults&pbx=1&oq=occupy+wall+street+sexual+assults&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2041l9617l0l10875l33l19l0l13l13l1l424l4202l 0.12.2.2.3l32l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=5f7ee2f34e758d0e&biw=1539&bih=943

If you don't listen now, instead of nit-picking individuals and broad brushing the whole by the ones you don't like, then of course it gets louder, and uglier. But the right rather wait for them to go home, or call out the national guard. To bad you guys can only see this through tunnel vision, but when faced with enough anger by your fellow citizens, maybe you guys will figure it out.

They don't have a right to burn, loot, and destroy. But they darn do have a right to assembly. Just because you don't understand what they are hollering about NOW! You will because I doubt they go away, despite your denial.


The day after the 1st of many to come OWS riots ;the Oakland city council was entertaining a resolution of support for Occupy Oakland ,AND to 'unequivocally embrace" the protesters' .
http://sfappeal.com/news/2011/11/supporters-of-occupyoakland-pack-city-council-meeting-thursday-night.php

In this 'Looking glass world' one should find it curious that the power would collaborate with the anarchists .The only real explanation is the goals are the same .It has been clear from the beginning that these protests are in support of statism.

That became clear to me the day the owners of Zucotti Park wanted it cleared for one day to get it cleaned ,and verious members of the NYC Democrat elites intervened on behalf of the protesters.

I agree with them when they speak about bank bailouts. That should never've happened .If we truly had a capitalist system it wouldn't have happened . But the only thing that happened to banks was the spraying graffiti on some ATMs ,and terrorizing bank tellers in Manhattan .
One thing for sure... you won't see this mob attack anything that is part of the Pelosi empire .See 60 Minutes this weekend about Paul Pelosi's insider trading of Visa at a time Madame Mimi was considering legislation about the company. Or her brother-in-law, Ronald Pelosi, a senior executive with a company called Pacific Corporate Group.

Among PCG's investments is SolarReserve, based in Santa Monica, Calif. which received a $737 million loan guarantee to build a 110-megawatt solar-thermal plant in Tonopah, Nev.
But Madame Mimi has come out in support of the OWS movement ;so she is safe.

Instead they went after Whole Foods store (by all appearances a company like Ben and Jerry's that these clowns should embrace) ;and they went after Men's Warehouse (I guess their crime is selling 2:1 suits to the man) . Didn't matter that George Zimmer ;founder of Men's Warehouse is a long time lefty and Howard Dean supporter in 2008. They had a big poster on their shop saying "We Stand With the 99%". Didn't help... not on Kristallnacht. Yeah that's right... Zimmer is Jewish .
Anti-Semitism at Occupy Wall Street Protest [CLEAN VERSION] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio)

The day after the 1st of many to come OWS riots ;the Oakland city council was entertaining a resolution of support for Occupy Oakland ,AND to 'unequivocally embrace" the protesters' .
Supporters Of #OccupyOakland Pack City Council Meeting Thursday Night: News: SFAppeal (http://sfappeal.com/news/2011/11/supporters-of-occupyoakland-pack-city-council-meeting-thursday-night.php)

In this 'Looking glass world' one should find it curious that the power would collaborate with the anarchists .The only real explanation is the goals are the same .It has been clear from the beginning that these protests are in support of statism.




You can tell this from the footage and interviews? The protesters are obviously confused.

You comment also seems confused as well. You cannot support anarchism while at the same time supporting statism. I would say you would have to be one or the other.

Tut

Yeah one would think but in retrospect it becomes clearer . At the heart of it is the indoctrinated who believes their comfy lives should be sustained by the government after they've left the comfy lives their parents provided through their hard work. See the OP... the demographics don't lie . The pols in turn want to keep this constituency happy so they can retain power .It's Roman Bread and Circus all over again. What they are demanding is in fact more patronizing and condescending authoritarianism under the guise of social justice . It serves the Patricians to direct the ire at someone else.

Darn those occupiers! Making those 14 million unemployed look bad. Yet they sit home and not make trouble. Just be poor.

In December, after the repubs cut the food stamps, a million people run out of benefits, in January, 6 million more.

What happens when all those folks ain't got nothing else to do but be mad? Ya think they'll join the crowd in the streets? Or take all those dishwashing jobs until something better comes along? Or pick fruit? Or strawberries? You know the ones that those brown people use to do? Call it what you will, and delude yourself into thinking its about a free ride, its not. Its about being pissed that the dealer got caught cheating, and they ain't happy.

Yeah I have no doubt more Obamavilles will pop up all over the country.



Or take all those dishwashing jobs until something better comes along?
Why not. It's comments like this that prove the point

The truth is that there are lots of hands on jobs ;skilled and good paying ,but hard labor work that doesn't get filled easily in this country .

Plumbers ,electricians ,mechanics and similar type work is not being filled because for some reason the kids are filled with the lie that if they get a humanities degree or some other liberal arts degree that they are entitled to walk into well paying positions and never get their hands dirty again .
I washed dishes ;was a cook ,worked in construction ,3rd shift injection mold plants... anything . I knew those jobs weren't going to be my final one.

Get out of the Occupy camps and go to work . Maybe then they'll have a clue.

LOL, is that a fair argument to make since those jobs were available to you back in the day, but are not now to this generation? You and smoothy are always talking about how hard you worked, back in the day, before the economy shrank, and calling these youngsters lazy a$$es. In truth they do not have those same opportunities that you had to even prove they can work hard.

I would love to see how many dish washing jobs you would be taking if you found yourself unemployed at YOUR age now, and facing and vastly different job market. Even if you did wash dishes, and RETRAINED yourself, you would still have to eat, AND pay bills, AND keep a roof over YOUR head.

AND compete with the youngsters who DO takes those dish washing jobs.I really think you would change your tune if faced with what 14 million other people are facing. How do you work hard when there is NO work? Or at least, not enough for everyone!!

LOL, is that a fair argument to make since those jobs were available to you back in the day, but are not now to this generation? You and smoothy are always talking about how hard you worked, back in the day, before the economy shrank, and calling these youngsters lazy a$$es. In truth they do not have those same opportunities that you had to even prove they can work hard.


I will say this. Mechanics are in high demand. But the difference between the ages is that less places are willing to train and only want to hire experienced mechanics. Our school system has shut this down and they only have to look inside to see who is to blame. When making cuts the industrial arts classes are the first ones on the chopping block. Being a mechanic is a lifetime job even in today's economy.

Demand For Auto Mechanics May Increase As Vehicle Repairs Surge (http://www.citytowninfo.com/career-and-education-news/articles/demand-for-auto-mechanics-may-increase-as-vehicle-repairs-surge-021902)

Always in Demand – Diesel Mechanic- Grad2B (http://www.grad2b.com/index.php/demand-diesel-mechanic/)

Mechanics in Demand | chlorinefreelife.com (http://chlorinefreelife.com/mechanics-in-demand/)

I have seen many of those lazy spoiled youngsters get themselves qualified for something more than washing dishes, but they never get the press as the occupiers, and protesters. Still it's a tough job market, and you may have to relocate out of your own comfort zone to get those jobs. Not easy when you have a family, and are an older person. Even younger people have many challenges, and obstacles to relocation. For jobs, and the training.

Yeah congress cut some more grants, and food stamps.

is that a fair argument to make since those jobs were available to you back in the day, but are not now to this generation?

They are jobs unfilled here .
Decent green for blue collars - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/blue_collar_green_UD5qdMRvgTdmmqDy4SqrvL)


and you may have to relocate out of your own comfort zone to get those jobs.

You do what you have to do

Not easy when you have a family, and are an older person. Even younger people have many challenges, and obstacles to relocation. For jobs, and the training.


No it isn't


Our school system has shut this down and they only have to look inside to see who is to blame. When making cuts the industrial arts classes are the first ones on the chopping block. Being a mechanic is a lifetime job even in today's economy.

Exactly ;the school system steers kids away from vocational training ;and frankly... Americans look down on these jobs as jobs that are "beneath them".

the school system steers kids away from vocational training ;and frankly ...Americans look down on these jobs as jobs that are "beneath them".
So what can be done to change that? I HATE it when I hear cries of "You must go to college to become a success in life." Bull feathers!

Absolutely agree. Frankly ,at the cost of a college education that whole system needs revision also . Much of the cost of college is in the campus experience. My daughter saved a lot on money by living at home and going to a local private college . There are also unrelated courses needed to get a 4 year degree. Eliminate them as pre-requisites and perhaps a degree can be completed in less time.

Vocational training should not be snubbed.. in fact it should be encouraged as a legitimate alternative . Why not teach business math and accounting instead of math that is required for college admission ?

And... I've always been in favor of industry becoming sponsors to high schools and /or specific educational training . That would help off set the costs of public education. Why not ? Those so called 1% ers stand to benefit the most from an educated work force. So why not have companies sponsor it and get all the pr benefit from the relationship ?

So what can be done to change that? I HATE it when I hear cries of "You must go to college to become a success in life." Bull feathers!

You need parents that stand up to the school system in general. Children can get their first experience from auto shop and other places. Another thing is to educate the public at large. Cars 20 or 30 years ago aren't even related to what is produced today. So many sytems and subsystems. Much more to know then before and computers are involved also. Look at how many are having to relearn what they thought they know due to electric cars and hybrids.

Originally Posted by tomder55
The school system steers kids away from vocational training ;and frankly... Americans look down on these jobs as jobs that are "beneath them".

I don't believe that for one second. Enrollment in community colleges, and online education is way up. These kids are doing the best they can with the hand they are dealt. It's the adults (US) who have screwed things up, and it's the adults who should be fixing it. I don't think that calling them names, or the unfortunate ones who the system has grossly failed represents a lack of effort. I think it's a lack of support we should be blaming.

Rich I don't mind, but greedy hoarding of the money hurts us all. We bail them out, they bail us out, and we are all better off and don't have a betch. These are not great times for a lot of us.

Our area high schools are connected to a vocational school. Core classes are taken at the high school for two years. In junior and senior years, if the student is properly motivated, he or she is allowed to attend high school in the morning and then bused to the vocational school in the afternoon for instruction in child care, medical lab work, auto mechanics, cooking/baking, and other hands-on careers that offer practical experience with an on-site restaurant, child care nursery for area companies, and connections with area hospitals and auto repair/maintenance businesses.

Grads of these programs get a special certificate and job-hunting help (if they don't already have one when they graduate). Many go on to the community college for more training in their field and further certification.

Perhaps this country needs more of these?

Our area high schools are connected to a vocational school. Core classes are taken at the high school for two years. In junior and senior years, if the student is properly motivated, he or she is allowed to attend high school in the morning and then bused to the vocational school in the afternoon for instruction in child care, medical lab work, auto mechanics, cooking/baking, and other hands-on careers that offer practical experience with an on-site restaurant, child care nursery for area companies, and connections with area hospitals and auto repair/maintenance businesses.

Grads of these programs get a special certificate and job-hunting help (if they don't already have one when they graduate). Many go on to the community college for more training in their field and further certification.

Perhaps this country needs more of these?


The oddest thing about this is that from what I remember back when. They had all of that on campus. Home Ec. Woodshop, Metalshop and auto. As well as typing etc classes. All was "in house" so to speak. That way the opportunities were passed on by those attending the schools. If they didn't close them down there would be no need for busing (takes time away from the student) or have the courses be estranged from the schools.

Those are all in-house too at the high school, but just individual courses. A student can do a try-out in wood or metal shop to see if he likes that sort of thing or if he's on a college track can take wood shop or home ec. My son took home ec courses to figure out if he wanted to go on to become a line cook or chef. He found out he didn't. If he wanted to, he would have gone on into that vocational facility's cooking/baking program and then to a culinary institute.

The advantage of this vocational facility is that propels students toward a career, can efficiently and effectively service several high schools, does adult training in the evenings, and has an on-site restaurant, day care, etc. that the high schools don't have.

In the Chicago suburbs, the distances are small and the vocational center is centrally located to most of the high schools.

So what can be done to change that? I HATE it when I hear cries of "You must go to college to become a success in life." Bull feathers!

I agree too... not everyone is cut out for college, or will be doing work that requires it.

And anyone that thinks there isn't money to be made in the restaurant business... I have a friend that started a small local chain of family restaurants... he has a share in all of them even though most are owned by others... the guy is loaded as are most of the owners of the restaurants. None of them were born into wealth. Or even born in this country.

Anyone that's NOT going to college would be far better off in VoTech learning SOME skill rather than being just another fool coming out of school without a specific developed marketable skill.

Trust me... I know people, many of them that are lucky to know how to do one thing... much less more than one. Something I find hard to grasp because I've learned how to do so many different things... some of them just by watching certain shows on TV. Others from individuals who knew how to do them.

Since High School I've learned how to build a footer for a house... lay a cement block foundation, lay and point brick, Do ceramic Tile work, Plumbing, Electrical work... framing, Sheetrock, not to mention automotive electrical systems, gas AND diesel engines, rebuilding transmissions, etc... etc...

Never mind the fact I'm a Degreed Electronic Engineer.

And I know people that can't grasp how to change a flat tire or change a spark plug on a lawnmower... but thankful for those types because I gets lots of free power equipment as a result.

Hello:

Education?? We don't need no stinkin education!

excon

I heard there were actual police reports and arrest records of the corn holing going on in the tea party... There's no telling how many people got corn holed and didn't report it.. It was really ugly, I heard. It was on the internet. Really. It's true.

I can give you a bunch of links but will ABC do?

Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps (http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street-camps/story?id=14873014#.Trfv-HK9beI)

badly behaved? it seems the southern variety would disagree with you. they call for motions and vote on them, quite strange behaviour for the great unwashed
Occupy Melbourne protesters take over Treasury Gardens | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/occupy-melbourne-protesters-take-over-treasury-gardens/story-fn7x8me2-1226184516938)

Yeah, they're voting on motions and have committees here, too... not to mention all kinds of goofy hand signals.

qaVvzTyMcls

Lol direct democracy in action

Hello:

Education??? We don't need no stinkin education!

All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

Yeah, they're voting on motions and have committees here, too...not to mention all kinds of goofy hand signals.

Clear example of what happens after doing too many drugs... I guess what that guy yammered on about only makes sense to stoners.

It gets better, apparently the occupiers have their own 1 percent...

A Chill Descends On Occupy Wall Street; "The Leaders of the allegedly Leaderless Movement" (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27479)


On Sunday, October 23, a meeting was held at 60 Wall Street. Six leaders discussed what to do with the half-million dollars that had been donated to their organization, since, in their estimation, the organization was incapable of making sound financial decisions. The proposed solution was not to spend the money educating their co-workers or stimulating more active participation by improving the organization’s structures and tactics. Instead, those present discussed how they could commandeer the $500,000 for their new, more exclusive organization. No, this was not the meeting of any traditional influence on Wall Street. These were six of the leaders of Occupy Wall Street (OWS).

You must read the whole thing...

And wouldn't you know, the first occcupiers' candidate, Elizabeth Warren, is part of the 1 percent (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/67716.html).

Her work for the 99% speaks for itself.

THey aren't 99% of anything... except the lazy bums and idiots...

I'm not one of their 1%, and I cerrtainly am not of their 99% thus their math is faulty.

I'm a member of the 53%.

Her work for the 99% speaks for itself.

Yeah whatever, I find it it sweetly ironic that the "99 percent" keep finding 1 percenters to carry their water... Michael Moore, Kanye West (sporting a $300 shirt, $1000 jeans and all kinds of gold bling), Elizabeth Warren, Susan Sarandon, Russell Brand, MC Hammer, Rosanne Barr and the most ironic as tom noted - the guy who does the Capital One ads - Alec Baldwin.

Yeah whatever, I find it it sweetly ironic that the "99 percent" keep finding 1 percenters to carry their water...Hello again, Steve:

I thought you believed in the free market. It's true. It WOULD be better if I was the face of the movement... I can inspire... I know the issues.. I'm handsome.. But, Alec Baldwin is cool too..

Again, you're concentrating on the messenger instead of the message... Rich people can be pissed off. I'm rich. I'm pissed off. I march. I have a job. I just want the banksters, who RIPPED ME OFF, to go to jail... Even Reagan put the banksters in jail.

In fact, I'm pissed off at the SAME people the tea party is pissed off at. THEY, along with YOU got ripped off too.

excon

Sure, anyone can be pissed off, but if you're going to build a movement specifically targeting a group of people you've labeled the "1 percent", it looks pretty silly having representatives from your target.

it looks pretty silly having representatives from your target.Hello again, Steve:

Since the start, the right wing has mis-assessed who the people are, and what their target is. You should STOP listening to them, for they know not what they speak.

You should listen to ME, because I am one... But, you'd rather listen to the limp one. I don't know why.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

Since the start, the right wing has mis-assessed who the people are, and what their target is. You should STOP listening to them, for they know not what they speak.

You should listen to ME, because I am one... But, you'd rather listen to the limp one. I dunno why.

LOL, I don't listen to the "limp one." I used to but my local station got rid of the two guys I liked so I told them they sucked and I listen to the Eagle (http://www.1009theeagle.com/) all day at work now - I could fit right in with the occupiers.

P.S. Did you enjoy your short reign as number 1?

In defense of Baldwin (I can't believe I said that ) . He did make a statement to the OWS telling them we should not abandon capitalism... a random act of reason .

Obama is a 1%er He has over 10 Million dollars.

So is Al Gore, Bill Clinton... Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, George Soros and most of the Democrat party.

Who said all the one percent have to be greedy hoarders of money? Despite some saying to the contrary, most rich people don't care about taxes going up, because they still have enough to make more money with.

Seems to be those darn ultra conservatives that need to make more poor people, and shrink government so they can run things the way they want it. The whole point is to restore circulation to the financial system, and not let the wall street elites continue to poison the global economy.

What the righties have yet to figure out is the effect they have on real people, in the drive to make corporations the masters of governments and people across the globe. That's not capitalism, its domination, and has been the goal of the republican party for decades. That's the new world order, and ordinary republicans in this country are dismissing the fact that most people just ain't going for it.

Its real simple, instead of continuing to suck ALL the money out of the economy, with wall street gadgets, instead of privatizing and controlling all the social institutions that protects its citizens which is 99 percent of the world, not just America, so we to start putting more value on people, their conditions and needs,and restore circulation, so that the rest of us can have opportunities to lead decent productive lives, by getting wall streets hands from around our throats.

Congressional republicans need to see that they work for the 99%, not just the 1% who is hoarding the money. You righties are so fond of saying that half the country pays no taxes, a false hood in of itself, but ignore completely WHY half the country is in poverty, and sinking fast.

But I guess you see nothing wrong with a nation of dish washers, maids, and cotton pickers, who shuffle along and drink foul water, no doctors, breathe foul air, and are ruled by corporations with no responsibilities to clean up their own messes.

Who said all the one percent have to be greedy hoarders of money? Despite some saying to the contrary, most rich people don't care about taxes going up, because they still have enough to make more money with.

Seems to be those darn ultra conservatives that need to make more poor people, and shrink government so they can run things the way they want it. The whole point is to restore circulation to the financial system, and not let the wall street elites continue to poison the global economy.

What the righties have yet to figure out is the effect they have on real people, in the drive to make corporations the masters of governments and people across the globe. Thats not capitalism, its domination, and has been the goal of the republican party for decades. Thats the new world order, and ordinary republicans in this country are dismissing the fact that most people just ain't going for it.

Its real simple, instead of continuing to suck ALL the money out of the economy, with wall street gadgets, instead of privatizing and controlling all the social institutions that protects its citizens which is 99 percent of the world, not just America, so we to start putting more value on people, their conditions and needs,and restore circulation, so that the rest of us can have opportunities to lead decent productive lives, by getting wall streets hands from around our throats.

Congressional republicans need to see that they work for the 99%, not just the 1% who is hoarding the money. You righties are so fond of saying that half the country pays no taxes, a false hood in of itself, but ignore completely WHY half the country is in poverty, and sinking fast.

But I guess you see nothing wrong with a nation of dish washers, maids, and cotton pickers, who shuffle along and drink foul water, no doctors, breathe foul air, and are ruled by corporations with no responsibilities to clean up their own messes.

You do understand the benchmark of every Liberal argument isn't valid, thus their arguments aren't valid.

Creation of wealth is not a ZERO Sum gain... someone doesn't have to get poorer for someone else to get richer.

In defense of Baldwin (I can't believe I said that ) . He did make a statement to the OWS telling them we should not abandon capitalism....a random act of reason .

Good for him. I imagine he enjoys his capitalist profits from representing Capital One and doesn't want to endanger that.

QUOTE by smoothy;
You do understand the benchmark of every Liberal argument isn't valid, thus their arguments aren't valid.
Conservative arguments are valid because they support complete slavery to corporations. They are only valid to you, because I reject their premise and misrepresentations of facts. Repeating lies doesn't make it true.


Creation of wealth is not a ZERO Sum gain... someone doesn't have to get poorer for someone else to get richer.
Yes it is, rich people create wealth for themselves, they pay you as less as possible to do so because they need your labor, and set the value of that labor. They tell YOU what you are worth to them to create wealth for themselves. That's slavery, as a slave cannot talk to master about compensation, safety, or benefits or his own value. That's what makes him a slave.

That's what they hate about unions, it gives the slave an effective voice for his own value.

Liberal arguments promote serfdom to the state.

Hello again,

This is all too complicated for me.. I hate everybody.

excon

liberal arguments promote serfdom to the state.

No Tom, they promote serfdom FROM the state, and that's what its about, service to the people.

Conservative arguments are valid because they support complete slavery to corporations. They are only valid to you, because I reject their premise and misrepresentations of facts. Repeating lies doesn't make it true.


Yes it is, rich people create wealth for themselves, they pay you as less as possible to do so because they need your labor, and set the value of that labor. They tell YOU what you are worth to them to create wealth for themselves. Thats slavery, as a slave cannot talk to master about compensation, safety, or benefits or his own value. Thats what makes him a slave.

Thats what they hate about unions, it gives the slave an effective voice for his own value.



Really... then prove those claims... particularly the zero sum gain part of it. This ought to be interesting. Because you can't have economic growth in a zero sum environment... you start with X and you can never have more than X...



Plus point out which corporations have slaves... Slaves don't get paid... and aren't free to go anyplace else. It will be interesting to hear which places you are saying this happens at.

No Tom, they promote serfdom FROM the state...

That doesn't even make sense, but nevertheless I don't want to be a part of any serfdom.


That's slavery, as a slave cannot talk to master about compensation, safety, or benefits or his own value. That's what makes him a slave.

Nope, we're all free to seek employment elsewhere or start our own business.


That's what they hate about unions, it gives the slave an effective voice for his own value.

A) The Boeing workers in SC overwhelmingly voted out their union. They're doing fine - until the anti-job mornons in this administration cause them to lose their jobs. We have an Owens-Corning plant here that has voted down union representation consistently for its existence. The workers do great and it's a plant that's never mentioned when talk of downsizing comes up.

B) Unions make union bosses 1 percenters. The occupiers should be pissed at the salaries bonuses passed out to union operatives.

Being of the Pong generation I have always been a gamer. It gave me great pleasure yesterday to complete my first mission in the just released Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - securing the New York Stock Exchange located at 11 Wall Street.

Of course I was fighting Russians and not the "occupiers". If I were fighting the occupiers I wouldn't need the M4A1 or XM25, I could just invade with a battalion of homeless people.

No Tom, they promote serfdom FROM the state, and thats what its about, service to the people.

Elected officials work for us, not the other way around.

Elected officials work for us, not the other way around.

That's how its supposed to work... I recommend the DNC inform his majesty of that.

And give Harry a call while they are at it.

QUOTE by smoothy;
Really... then prove those claims... particularly the zero sum gain part of it. This ought to be interesting. Because you can't have economic growth in a zero sum environment... you start with X and you can never have more than X...
There is no growth now to keep up with population. Except among the rich who circulate the money among themselves, and enjoy a collective trillion dollars in tax cuts.


Plus point out which corporations have slaves... Slaves don't get paid... and aren't free to go anyplace else. It will be interesting to hear which places you are saying this happens at.
Slavery is working at a wage that cannot afford you to buy the products you make.
Slavery is working 3 jobs to live on. Slavery is needing assistance for the basics. Slavery is being told your job was outsourced to a third world country with cheap labor and sweat shops. Slavery is thinking your job of 20 years is secure, until they down size or move the company. Slavery is no job, and a mortgage when you are 45 and two kids.

Slavery is being told what to do with your $7.65 an hour. Slavery is a rich guy telling you what you are worth.

QUOTE by speechlesstx;
That doesn't even make sense, but nevertheless I don't want to be a part of any serfdom.
Serfdom/slavery doesn't make sense, not supposed to, and they will never tell you that's what you are. They will instead call you a trusted employee, until they lay you off, to keep the bottom line sound. But my reference was to elected officials, ones that are supposed to serve at YOUR behest. They don't, they serve at the campaign donors behest.


Nope, we're all free to seek employment elsewhere or start our own business.
Where does that seed money come from for a new business start up? Where are those jobs you can just seek elsewhere? Where are all these poor people coming from? The American ones? Saying you are free to do something is easy, try it, and let me know how that relocation thing works for you!


A) The Boeing workers in SC overwhelmingly voted out their union. They're doing fine - until the anti-job mornons in this administration cause them to lose their jobs. We have an Owens-Corning plant here that has voted down union representation consistently for its existence. The workers do great and it's a plant that's never mentioned when talk of downsizing comes up.
Sure they do, for now. I live in Texas too, and this is a non union state, but there are unions, but quiet as its kept, other unions help you to, by keeping an industry standard for non union jobs, or else you would earn a lot less than you do know, especially if you are a skilled tradesman. Yeah that's right, YOUR boss would pay you less if he didn't have to compete with union wages, AND union safety standards. If he didn't he would be hiring a different worker every week. A cheaper worker.

As to the specific company you cite, OC is a big company, all over the country. They have laid off workers at other plants and it has nothing to due with unions, its lack of demands for its products. Nice try, but Amarillo laid off a bunch of folks a few years ago when the recession started.


B) Unions make union bosses 1 percenters. The occupiers should be pissed at the salaries bonuses passed out to union operatives.
Don't even go there, union bonuses vs. wall street bonuses, or corporate bonuses?? Which one would YOU take??

Thats how its supposed to work.....I recommend the DNC inform his majesty of that.

And give Harry a call while they are at it.
Call the RNC while you ar at it.

There is no growth now to keep up with population. Except among the rich who circulate the money among themselves, and enjoy a collective trillion dollars in tax cuts.


Slavery is working at a wage that cannot afford you to buy the products you make.
Slavery is working 3 jobs to live on. Slavery is needing assistance for the basics. Slavery is being told your job was outsourced to a third world country with cheap labor and sweat shops. Slavery is thinking your job of 20 years is secure, until they down size or move the company. Slavery is no job, and a mortgage when you are 45 and two kids.

Slavery is being told what to do with your $7.65 an hour. Slavery is a rich guy telling you what you are worth.
Your argument doesn't hold water. Because that's not how it works.

In a zero sum environment, nobody could create a new service that never existed without another different service dissappearing... nobody could ever get a pay raise without another individual taking a pay cut.







Nobody is telling you what you are worth... they are saying I am willing to pay THIS amount to do THIS job.. If its not enough you can go to another employer... nobody MAKES you take that. And quite honestly... people that get $7.65 an hour get that, because a trained monkey can do the job... they have no real skill that has value. Otherwise they could get a beter job. Some of them are lucky they get paid that much.

You don't buy a house you can't afford to pay for... that mortgage is something YOU get into on your own free will. You can always RENT a place. And if you can't afford to raise kids... you don't have two of them.





Anyone that has ever earned a paycheck deals with that.

San Diego occupiers attack some of the 1%ers

The coffee and hot dog carts were located in Civic Center Plaza, the same location as the Occupy San Diego protesters.

That group first settled in to the plaza Oct. 7 and set up a tent city which has since twice been taken down by police.

Coffee cart owner Linda Jenson and hot dog cart operators Letty and Pete Soto said they initially provided free food and drink to demonstrators, but when they stopped, the protesters became violent.

And according to one city councilman, bodily fluids were used in the attacks.

“Both carts have had items stolen, have had their covers vandalized with markings and graffiti, as well as one of the carts had urine and blood splattered on it,” said Councilman Carl DeMaio.

The damages will likely require at least a complete cleaning if not a replacement of the cart covers, DeMaio said.

The lovely, peaceful and tolerant occupiers are also said to have hurled death threats at the food vendors.

SoCal Street Cart Vendors Hurting After 'Occupy' Group Splatters Blood, Urine CBS Los Angeles (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/)

San Diego occupiers attack some of the 1%ers

SoCal Street Cart Vendors Hurting After ‘Occupy’ Group Splatters Blood, Urine CBS Los Angeles (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/)

Yes... more wonderful examples of liberals in action... showing their true colors.

QUOTE by smoothy;
Your argument doesn't hold water. Because that's not how it works.

In a zero sum environment, nobody could create a new service that never existed without another different service dissappearing... nobody could ever get a pay raise without another individual taking a pay cut.
Tell that to the people whose job was out sourced


Nobody is telling you what you are worth... they are saying I am willing to pay THIS amount to do THIS job.. If its not enough you can go to another employer... nobody MAKES you take that. And quite honestly... people that get $7.65 an hour get that, because a trained monkey can do the job... they have no real skill that has value. Otherwise they could get a beter job. Some of them are lucky they get paid that much.You can pay a monkey bananas, but if YOUR job gets outsourced or cut, or the business climate goes down as in like NOW, YOU will take less, OR lose your job, OR go get another one somplace else, I wish you better luck than the 14 million who are there already, and losing there A$$es, in the meantime. Like the boss says, be grateful you have a job, and its telling that you think EVERYBODY who doesn't have one its their fault, "but for the grace of God..........."! But then you probably are a big fan of Herman Cain. You guys talk the same way.

You don't buy a house you can't afford to pay for... that mortgage is something YOU get into on your own free will. You can always RENT a place. And if you can't afford to raise kids... you don't have two of them.

What if you have had a mortgae and a couple of kids for 15 years, BEFORE they laid you off, and moved the whole operation over seas???


Anyone that has ever earned a paycheck deals with that.
I heard your complaints, you like ex, hate everybody. And there are million who are dealing with it.

That outsourcing started hard and heavy under Bill Clinton... I know because it took up a big chunk of my day at work for a good while.

No job is worth more than the person who is willing to do it for the least amount.

You don't buy a house you can barely afford ASSUMING its going to increase in value faster than your paycheck does... or if it requires TWO incomes to qualify for it.

I followed that rule... I could have gotten a much bigger house than I did... I still could. But I like not being overextended on my finances. I don't have $40K in credit card debt either. Because I live within my means including setting money aside for retirement and a rainy day fund.

I've been laid off before... thats how I learned you have to be proactive in your life... and expect that sort of thing to happen. Unlike a lot of people... I don't waste a lot of money on expensive new cars or expensive clothes hoping to impress others.

That means I've prepared for the worst when it happens next time...

I could actually survive on less than 1/3 my current income if need be. That would be below the poverty level.

Its not about hating everybody... just hating those that put themselves in a situation, then expect everyone who was smart enough not to be to bail them out.

You are luckier than most, count your blessings.

You are luckier than most, count your blessings.

Its not luck... it was a hard earned lesson from my 20's that got me into that mindset. And to never allow myself to get into that position again. Because I did make those mistakes in my early 20's.

I learned that lesson because I worked myself out of it (I got myself into it, I was going to get myself out of it)... I wasn't handed a bailout, and I didn't walk away from my responsibilities.

Good for you. To bad the rest of us humans aren't as smart, hardworking, frugal, or gifted with uncommon good sense.

Yes I am being sarcastic, because as tough as you talk, you are probably the biggest softie around. You don't fool me at all brudder.

Just so you know!!

*group hug for smoothy*

We've been in our small one-bath, two-bedroom (10x10 each) starter home since 1972. No cc debt. College bills for us and one kid paid off. Five cats who want for nothing. Retired now, but no cruises or European vacations on the horizon.

Group hug for me now.

Ill just drop this here.. nuff said.

A Day in the Life of an Occupy Wall St. Participant - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2qqRFYv3ao&feature=player_embedded)

This movement is not only dumb it is becoming unlawfull, down our way they have begun to occupy buildings and guess what; they change the locks and become squatters. This leads to them being forceably ejected and arrested. So I ask you what are you protesting when you occupy an empty building, other than the fact it is raining on your parade?

what are you protesting when you occupy an empty building, other than the fact it is raining on your parade?
Maybe that's how they get out of the rain.

There is another way of getting out of the rain, don't go in the first place

Yes....more wonderful examples of liberals in action....showing their true colors.


Hi Smoothy,



Tom said there were anarchists.

Actually what I said was that there are confused anarchists. They don't like the current system and their solution is more of the same.

Hello again:

Yeah... A bunch of stoned confused hippies changed the world once, just like these people will. I don't know why you think they need to wear three piece suits...

excon

The stoned confused hippies are the ones wearing the 3 piece suits today...

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrongThey decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

Yeah!

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now parting on the rightAnd the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss.. (The Who)

Hi Smoothy,



Tom said there were anarchists.Anarchists are liberals. Even if some of the Liberals might not want them to be.

the stoned confused hippies are the ones wearing the 3 piece suits today ......

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrongThey decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

Yeah!

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now parting on the rightAnd the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss.. (The Who)

Hi Tom,

Love it. But history doesn't repeat itself.

Tut

Anarchists are liberals.Hello smoothy:

Okee doakee.

excon

Hello smoothy:

Okee doakee.

excon


Enough said.

Tut

Hello smoothy:

Okee doakee.

excon

Heck... its clear the Anarchists aren't much better liked by the left than by the right... but more lefties do like them than righties do. Even if those numbers aren't large.

They would get lynched if they showed up at a Tea Party event... not welcomed like they are at the OWS "Poo in the Park" event.

Confused anarchists, confused anti-Semites... nice crowd.

Fresh anti-Semitic videos coming out of Occupy Wall Street (http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2011/11/09/fresh-anti-semitic-videos-coming-out-of-occupy-wall-street/)

Just curious, when is the media going to actually cover the ugly aspects of the bowel movement?

Hello again, Steve:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon-albums-excon%27s+private+stash-picture697-niggar.jpg

Tea Party rally. Just saying...

excon

Hello again, Steve:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon-albums-excon%27s+private+stash-picture697-niggar.jpg

Tea Party rally. Just sayin...

excon

That's it? One idiot with a sign? Where'd you find that one?

Hello again, Steve:

Oh, I got more:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon-albums-new-picture700-tea-party-7-dc-anichrist.jpg

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon-albums-new-picture699-racist1.jpg

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon-albums-new-picture698-facist2.jpg

There's DOZENS to choose from.. Want more? I ain't busy.

excon

Somebody in the Tea Party can't spell.

Where did you get them? I posted my source.

In any case... the Current administration has decalared by executive order... dissagreeing with the Messiah, Obama is now considered Blashemy. And not the right of a citizen to disgree with the man, the god or his agenda. That's according to another executive order establishing Sharia as the law of the land. Disagreeing with Obama is now a punishible offense.

He will soon declare himself president for life after he cancels future elections also by executive order since he has no use for a House or Senate, much less a country that's not under his total control to do everything he demands.

Where did you get them? I posted my source.Hello Steve:

Google, images, tea party racist signs...

tea party racist signs - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=748&q=tea+party+racist+signs&gbv=2&oq=tea+party+rac&aq=1&aqi=g7g-s1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=2925l11006l0l15672l13l12l0l2l2l0l203l1368l3 .6.1l10l0)

excon

So liberals parade around with them at liberal protests... post them on the internet and pretend they were from a tea party event that none can be attributed to in reality. Because they don't find anything like that which is legitimate.

Then the use the" Well its on the Internet so it must be true".

Like all the Global Warming evidence... and the Pot is the most healthy substance known to man evidence.

All liberal sites... known for dreaming up stuff, like the NAACP and Huffington comPost.

Hello Steve:

Google, images, tea party racist signs...

tea party racist signs - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=748&q=tea+party+racist+signs&gbv=2&oq=tea+party+rac&aq=1&aqi=g7g-s1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=2925l11006l0l15672l13l12l0l2l2l0l203l1368l3 .6.1l10l0)

excon

That doesn't exactly confirm those were actual Tea Party people or infiltrators and you know the Tea Party - as well as I do - condemns racism, violence, etc. No one has to call the cops to crack down on Tea Party violence... except for union thugs stirring up crap and that one small incident in Quincy, IL (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/video-tea-party-tax-day-protest-466344-4.html#post2334514)... and no one needs delousing (http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/07/occupy-portland-says-have-a-lice-day/) at Tea Party events.

Meanwhile, the occupiers have been rioting in Oakland and Atlanta, blockading businesses, assaulting street vendors in San Diego, $10 million in arson (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/29683079/detail.html) in Fort Collins, Co, squatting on private property, terrorizing (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/occupiers_terrorize_us_eatery_o4dKzxi3n03WyJWAJu4A hO?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=) business owners and their employees, destroying private property and creating health hazards.

Yeah, they're just alike.

P.S. The media has made plenty of noise about the Tea Party, deserved or not, real or manufactured. The questions is, when will they cover the ugly side of OWS?

Hello again, Steve:

I only showed you the signs because you home in on stuff like that.. I was just trying to say that it's even... I truly don't believe the Tea Party is racist, just like I don't believe the OWS's are anti Semitic.

If I just focused on the tea party's signs, I'd never understand what they're about... But, I don't do that.

You, and your minions, however, focus on the OWS'rs signs, their dirt, their hair, their houses, their sh1t... ANYTHING but the reason they're demonstrating... You're going to miss some stuff if that's all you do. You know, you're not REQUIRED to wear the right wing blinders.. You CAN look beyond them, if you wanted..

excon

Nah, I don't wear blinders. To me character matters, and it does to you too and I know that because of the way you talk about Rush Limbaugh. I have no respect for racists, just as I have no respect for people that have no respect for the things of others. I really don't care what they're pissed about as long as they act that way.

Besides, as I've pointed out more than once this whole thing wa supposed to be about their "one demand." I still don't know what it is. No one knows what they want except their way.

Heck...its clear the Anarchists aren't much better liked by the left than by the right...but more lefties do like them than righties do. Even if those numbers aren't large.

They would get lynched if they showed up at a Tea Party event....not welcomed like they are at the OWS "Poo in the Park" event.


Come on smoothy, you are making this up.

No one understands how anarchism fits into 21 st century politics.

He's not making it up Tut, the reality is there are anarchists on both sides. Right now OWS and our own home grown variety are showing themselves to be obnoxious on many levels with the objective of disruption, a lunitic fringe of a few individuals

he's not making it up Tut, the reality is there are anarchists on both sides. right now OWS and our own home grown variety are showing themselves to be obnoxious on many levels with the objective of disruption, a lunitic fringe of a few individuals

Hi Clete,

I'm not always happy with this, but yes. If we are talking in broad terms, then I'll go along with it.

If you get two extreme positions then it can attract anarchists on both sides. Right wing anarchist could see government as a threat to freedom while the OWS sees government as a 'handmaiden' to powerful corporations.

Perhaps this goes some way to answering the question of OWS single demand. It is possible to be an anarchist and not know it.

In the end, both the left and right fill some type on minimal requirement ( what ever that is) for being an anarchist when it comes to extreme views.

Are anarchist much better liked by the left than the right? Historically no. The future will be interesting.

Tut

while the OWS sees government as a 'handmaiden' to powerful corporations.
Perhaps they do think that . But when asked they will admit is that they want even more of the same. Oh they couch it in language like "regulation" . But in the end it amounts to a cozy relationship with industry and a command and control government .

Perhaps they do think that . But when asked they will admit is that they want even more of the same. Oh they couch it in language like "regulation" . But in the end it amounts to a cozy relationship with industry and a command and control government





Hi Tom,

Of course. They are smart enough to know where the real power resides. Come to think of it, doesn't everybody? Being a handmaiden has its benefits.

Tut

The future will be interesting.

Tut

Now that I can agree with. I haven't worked out what our version of the OWS is protesting about. Perhaps it is the success of our banks in being prudent or just their success. Perhaps it is that that they aren't allowed to occupy anything for more that a few hours, none of those silly freedoms here, but given that uni doesn't recommence until next year we can expect the great unwashed to provide us with an interesting protest season

For all the dirt thrown at the protestors, I think its wise not to assume that just because they haven't physically joined the protest, that they are not as angry about conditions as the ones who are protesting.

Maybe those 600,000 who pulled their money from the big banks didn't shut it down, but they made a statement you can't ignore. A brewing climate of unrest for sure.

A brewing climate of unrest for sure.

Perhaps it would behove the protesters to contemplate what they are going to do after the European crunch hits, they will have something new to protest about as government cuts back because it just doesn't have any money any more.

LOL, Clete, we have plenty of money, its just not being circulated because its being hoarded. I dare say that if things get worse here, there will be more people in the streets, not less.

They haven't thought that part through . Meanwhile there are deaths in the encampments now . 3 in the last few days in Oakland, New Orleans, and Burlington, Vt.

The details are unclear but the Oakland one is a shooting ,the Vt. One appears to be a self inflicted one;and the New Orleans one is unclear... the man was found dead in his tent.

Time for the protesters to go home . Thanksgiving is coming and mom and dad have the fatted turkey to cook for the return of the prodigal ones.

there are deaths in the encampments now . Time to go homeHello again, tom:

I remember Nara, an Iranian girl killed by the government. I don't remember you saying THEY should go home.. In fact, I think you supported that uprising...

excon

that's right I do support uprisings against the despots in Tehran who murdered Neda Agha-Soltan from the regimes snipers randomly firing into the crowd . Are you comparing that to this ?

Are you comparing that to this ?Hello again, tom:

They're SHADES of the same thing... People want to be free from the yoke of oppression wherever they find it, be it a despot that's holding them down, or an oligarch.

excon

We have one of those despots that wall street had in their pocket sitting in the White house now.

The guy in New Orleans had been dead for 2 days and nobody noticed .

Now they are getting 'Zuccotti Lung' living in the unsanitary encampment in NYC.


As the weather turns, the protesters in Zuccotti Park, the nexus of the Occupy Wall Street protests in Lower Manhattan, have been forced to confront a simple truth: packing themselves like sardines inside a public plaza, where cigarettes are shared and a good night’s sleep remains elusive, may not be conducive to good health.

“Pretty much everything here is a good way to get sick,” said Salvatore Cipolla, 23, from Long Island. “It’ll definitely thin the herd.”...

Even some camping in the park have grown concerned in recent weeks with the living quarters. Damp laundry and cardboard signs, left in the rain, have provided fertile ground for mold. Some protesters urinate in bottles, or occasionally a water-cooler jug, to avoid the lines at public restrooms. Food, from orange peels to scrambled eggs, is often discarded outside tents.

“I’m amazed that in a park full of revolutionaries, there are large contingents that can’t throw away their own trash,” said Jordan McCarthy, 22, a member of the protesters’ sanitation team.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/nyregion/for-occupy-wall-street-health-is-a-growing-concern.html?_r=1
I'm amazed he's amazed. I predicted this would happen as they devolve into a 'Lord of the Flies' world. They don't have mommy doing their laundy for them and cleaning up after them so this was predictable.
It's happening in Atlanta too.
http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2011/11/10/tuberculosis-breaks-out-at-occupy-atlantas-base/
Time to go home. Mommy has some chicken soup on the stove.

Hello again, tom:

I don't know if you noticed, but when you put down the protesters, which is ALL you do, I disregard it... It's so much fluff. It's MEANINGLESS. It's like concentrating on the nice rain, instead of the flood it causes... It's like talking about the clothes Romney wears instead of what he says.. It makes me think you live in a bubble, where ONLY the stuff you want gets in.

Until and unless you speak to the REASONS for the protest, instead of fluff, I'm going to be as meaningless BACK to you, as you are to me... So, as long as you talk about how dirty they are, or how there's some anarchists mixed in with 'em, or they sh1t everywhere, you won't garner MY interest...

excon

The guy in New Orleans had been dead for 2 days and nobody noticed .

Now they are getting 'Zuccotti Lung' living in the unsanitary encampment in NYC.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/nyregion/for-occupy-wall-street-health-is-a-growing-concern.html?_r=1
I'm amazed he's amazed. I predicted this would happen as they devolve into a 'Lord of the Flies' world. They don't have mommy doing their laundy for them and cleaning up after them so this was predictable.
It's happening in Atlanta too.
Tuberculosis Breaks Out At Occupy Atlanta's Base CBS Atlanta (http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2011/11/10/tuberculosis-breaks-out-at-occupy-atlantas-base/)
Time to go home. Mommy has some chicken soup on the stove.


Hi Tom,

You have mentioned going home on a number of occasions. I couldn't agree more. I have also said on a number of occasions, "the die is cast". Yes, they are wasting their time.

I suggest we cut to the chase.

Fracking lobby pays 747m to stop laws'

Fracking lobby pays $747m to stop laws (http://www.smh.com.au/world/fracking-lobby-pays-747m-to-stop-laws-20111111-1nbm0.html)


Just the tip of the iceberg?

We all know where the real power resides. Let's not get caught up on environmental issues. The mining lobby may well be correct, but this is not the point. The real issue is who is going to get their way in the end.

On a different thread you discussing the Republican nominations. It wouldn't matter if you were discussing the Democrat nominations it still amounts to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


Tut

Perhaps you think some lobbying is good so long as industry has no say. I say that because the environmental laws are not created in a bubble . The fact is that there are lobby efforts by environmental organizations (dare I say it ? Corporations ) to influence law also . Now the industry you mention may indeed outspend the environmental lobby ,and probably does. However ,they are quite influential on the lawmakers . Are you saying that industry should not have the right to defend themselves and influence laws that directly affect how they do business ? What type of tyranny do you preach ? If there is a law that has an impact on my life I certainly have the constitutional protection to address it ;to petition for redress . Certainly you are not arguing that corporations ;which represents the interests of thousands of shareholders ,should not have the right to influence the lawmakers.

[disclosure. I have some upstate NY property that is sitting right on top of the Marcellus Shale and would not turn down an offer for the purchase of the land by some drilling interest if the price was right.]

Perhaps you think some lobbying is good so long as industry has no say



No, I am saying that lobbing is grossly disproportional.





I say that because the enviromental laws are not created in a bubble . The fact is that there are lobby efforts by environmental organizations (dare I say it ? corporations ) to influence law also .




Yes, but only if they are not drilling in a developing nation. Developing nations lack the means to redress environmental vandalism. No, the industrial horse didn't come before the cart when it comes to environmental issues.






Now the industry you mention may indeed outspend the environmental lobby ,and probably does. However ,they are quite influential on the lawmakers . Are you saying that industry should not have the right to defend themselves and influence laws that directly affect how they do business ? What type of tyranny do you preach ?



I am a bit confused here. I think your quote,"However, they are quite influential on lawmakers", is a reference to the environmental lobby and not industry. If this is the case the I would agree that is generally the case so long as these laws don't become too intrusive. In this particular case I would say that they are too intrusive, hence the muscle flexing.

I would say there is a big difference between defending oneself in terms of existing precedent and attempting create a precedent.





If there is a law that has an impact on my life I certainly have the constitutional protection to address it ;to petition for redress . Certainly you are not arguing that corporations ;which represents the interests of thousands of shareholders ,should not have the right to influence the lawmakers.



My guess would be that you need to look at the above quote in terms of common law and constitutional law.

Tut

Certainly you are not arguing that corporations ;which represents the interests of thousands of shareholders ,should not have the right to influence the lawmakers.

This is exactly what we should be arguing because what you have just said is a gross distortion of the facts. A corporation does not represent thousands of shareholders, the elected representatives represent those people. A corporation represents only it's profit motive and while a legal entity, it is not a person and not entitled to representation

,"However, they are quite influential on lawmakers", is a reference to the environmental lobby and not industry. If this is the case the I would agree that is generally the case so long as these laws don't become too intrusive. In this particular case I would say that they are too intrusive, hence the muscle flexing.

It is . I don't know if the laws are too instrusive or not. I think concerns about fracking impacting ground water need to be studied and resolved. I am not in favor of pollution despite the constant charge here to the contrary.

The fact is that we are sitting on what has been correctly called "the Saudi Arabia of natural gas". It is much cleaner burning than petroleum ;and as the link you provided states ,there are many well paying jobs in the industry if the environmental challeges can be overcome (it really is an engineering challenge ) .

I scratch my head at extreme enviromentalism . They surrounded the White House this week with a plastic replica of the Keystone oil pipeline that was supposed to transport oil from Alberta to the refineries in the Illinois,Oklahoma,and the Gulf region . Again a win win . The Canadians want to export their product . If we don't buy it then they will construct a pipeline to Vancouver where the Chinese would be more than happy to purchase it.
It would provide product for the refineries in the Gulf . And ;there would be constructions jobs throughout the central US .

But President Obama ,as is his won't and history ,voted present . He decided to delay a decision on the construction until after the election.

We all know the real reason for the protests of course. One of the businesses that stand to benfit from the construction is owned by the Koch Brothers .

Essentially this becomes just one more case where central government is deciding winners and losers in the market through law and policy.

Those evil 1%er Koch Brothers . To stick a finger in their eye apx 20,000 jobs related to the project won't happen this year.
When Tal talks about capital stalled remember this example as one of the primary causes.

This is exactly what we should be arguing because what you have just said is a gross distortion of the facts. A corporation does not represent thousands of shareholders, the elected representatives represent those people. A corporation represents only it's profit motive and while a legal entity, it is not a person and not entitled to representation

If a corporation is not for legal definition "people" then would you wave them of the legal responsibilities of their debts and liabilities or of getting sued ? In common law only people can be sued... no ? What you in fact are arguing is that they should be required to have the same responsibilities of a legal person ;but not the same rights.

.

This is exactly what we should be arguing because what you have just said is a gross distortion of the facts. A corporation does not represent thousands of shareholders, the elected representatives represent those people. A corporation represents only it's profit motive and while a legal entity, it is not a person and not entitled to representation


Hi clete,


Exactly right.

A corporation is not a person. If the law says a corporation is a person then this is an absolute nonsense. It would be committing a fallacy of composition. It wouldn't surprise me. After all the law can be a donkey at times.

Tut

If the law says a corporation is a person then this is an absolute nonsense. It is committing a fallacy of composition. Hello TUT:

Of course it is... Did you know that our Supreme Court recently said that corporations have the right of free speech, just like people do??

Ridiculous!

excon

You are aware of the 1st amendment right of free association and petition.
Really what you are saying is people should have those rights ;and certain corporations even should have that right ( unions ;advocacy groups that incorporate into non-profits ) ;but certain corporations should have less rights than the ones you approve of . I have yet to hear a lib complain about the money Planned Parenthood or the Sierra Club spends to influence politics in this country.

I have yet to hear a lib complain about the money Planned Parenthood or the Sierra Club spends to influence politics in this country.Hello again, tom:

Well, lawdy be. I'm here to grant your wish.. I'm against ALL organizations spending money to influence politics. Money is NOT speech.. People can band together and lobby as a group. That's absolutely Constitutional.. If their collective strength isn't enough to convince politicians of the rightness of their ways, too bad. They may even spend as much as they like as individuals to influence politics... But, the organizations they join may NOT, in my view. Spend MONEY to influence politics.

excon

you are aware of the 1st amendment right of free association and petition.
Really what you are saying is people should have those rights ;and certain corporations even should have that right ( unions ;advocacy groups that incorporate into non-profits ) ;but certain corporations should have less rights than the ones you approve of . I have yet to hear a lib complain about the money Planned Parenthood or the Sierra Club spends to influence politics in this country.


No, what we are talking about is corporations having the benefit of being recognized as a mythical 'personhood' under the law.

Seems like a pretty good deal to me if you are a 'personhood', whatever that means. Is a personhood vote worth more than an individual vote?

Apparently truth is stranger than fiction.

Corporate personhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood)

Tut you find it difficult to understand because your system of laws are not based on a constutution that enumerates certain rights .
Now it is true that corporations don't have the same degree of rights as a physical person . But they absolutely do have the same rights as a 'legal person'(persona ficta).

Your laws ,regardless if based on a constitution or not recognizes rights to persona ficta. It's simply a tradition of western law.

Now that's resolved the only debate is if such an assembly of individuals assembled into corporation should have a right to petition and influence the government that individuals do . If such a collection of people do not have that right then I also can advance the proposition that political parties ;unions ,trade associations like the Teachers unions ;various lawyer guilds etc simularily do not have that right.

Hello again, tom:

Well, lawdy be. I'm here to grant your wish.. I'm against ALL organizations spending money to influence politics. Money is NOT speech.. People can band together and lobby as a group. That's absolutely Constitutional.. If their collective strength isn't enough to convince politicians of the rightness of their ways, too bad. They may even spend as much as they like as individuals to influence politics... But, the organizations they join may NOT, in my view. spend MONEY to influence politics.

excon

I expect then that you are in favor of stopping political parties from having the right to fund campaigns .

What would you do ? Stop oil companies from airing ads that promote how much they spend on green research knowing damn well it's purpose is to influence politics? Would you stop the Teacher's Unions from defending themselves in ads when they are under attack in a political campaign ?

There are already laws that restrict how much they can spend directly to a candidate so what you are opposed to then is the right to petition directly either to the lawmakers or the public . The right to petition is not restricted to anyone be they flesh or persona ficta.

What would you do ? Hello again, tom:

Look. I don't know what to do. What I DO know is that when money is involved in politics, the guy with the most money gets his way...

That is NOT how this country was designed.

excon

Wow, I just read through all that. A few things you clever folks might be able to clear up for me:

More regulation/less regulation. How about the right kind of regulation made my intellligent fair-minded politicians. Where do we find those?

Why do you have to be poor to protest against poverty?
Why do you have to be a personal victim of unfairness to protest against social inequality?

How is it possible that some of us have a work ethic, do what we can to earn the money, but still end up skint?

What on earth does tea parties and corn holing mean??

Why did exy leave his island of naked chicks for somewhere that sounds much less appealing?

What do the occupiers specifically want? Is it actually their job to come up with the answers anyway? Or should we be looking for political leadership to find them? I go back to my first question.

Whoever has the money is the boss, plain and simple and backed up by facts. And when we the people don't keep a careful eye peeled, some will sneak in and take it all right from under our noses.

We are defined by what we do, so whose fault is it if we elect a lot of clowns who turn the country into a circus?

Whose fault is it when we let others make decisions for us, whether its in our interest or not?

Its our fault that we are where we are. We the people get what we elected, what we deserved, and its up to we the people to get beyond the BS, and get what WE want.

Sometimes choosing who to vote for at an election feels like shall I vote for having my left foot amputated or my right one...

More regulation/less regulation. How about the right kind of regulation made my intellligent fair-minded politicians. Where do we find those?


Good luck finding that... given the choice ,in an imperfect world, I opt for a government with limited defined powers.


Why do you have to be poor to protest against poverty?


You don't have to ;but it is a bit hyporitical for clowns like Michael Moore to show up at these rallies cheering them on and then at night retreat to his lake side mansion.
It is a bit of a joke for Warren Buffet to complain he's under taxed only to find out later he refuses to pay the taxes he is due to pay.
Do you think Al Gore should be jet setting around the world and living in a mansion that leaves a carbon footprint the size of the Lock Ness Monster... advocating for governments to put regulations on carbon emissions that would favor companies he's invested in ? Let them walk the walk.


How is it possible that some of us have a work ethic, do what we can to earn the money, but still end up skint?


Stuff happens . Are you saying that it is the role of government to guarantee an outcome of success ? If someone invests in a college career and doesn't succeed in translating that into a good life then what are yours and my responsibilities to that person? What really rubs me raw is that these so called guarantees are picked up by some tax payer who may never have had that chance . Let's say someone without the intelligence is consigned to busting their a$$ and over time carves out a decent existence for themselves. Why is it that person's problem that some idiot paid a fortune to get one of those liberal arts degrees like humanities ,and can't make a go of it ? But money gets picked out of that person's pocket then so the loser's college loan is government guaranteed ? Gimme a break ! But that is exactly what they mean when they talk about college loan relief.


What do the occupiers specifically want? Is it actually their job to come up with the answers anyway? Or should we be looking for political leadership to find them?

I don't have to look for political leadership for them. They are destroying the neighborhoods by their encampments and can't give a coherent reason why ? That sounds a lot like anarchy to me.

Tea Party is a political movement started a couple years ago to protest the bail outs and excess government spending . It is named after the Boston Tea Party. Surely someone from England knows about that. Colonists protesting taxes threw tea into Boston harbor... 'making the tea undrinkable... even for Americans'(to quote Mr Banks from 'Mary Poppins') .

Cornholing is disgusting ,

I am of course aware of the historical relevance of the Boston Tea party but was unsure of it's exact current usage. So thanks for the info; still not sure what the cornholing means but from your comment I guess I'm happier not knowing the details.

No, I'm not saying that it is the role of government to ensure success. Rather that it is not their role to undermine it by punitively taxing the masses to dig us out of a hole dug by the bankers. Wouldn't we all love a job where we get a massive bonus even after we make a spectacular balls up. Not that I'm not willing to share the pain of reducing a spectacular debt owed by the country, but somehow the sharing seems a little bit skewed. I don't actually know exactly what is on the agenda of the occupiers but I bet these factors are in there somewhere.

Of course there will be some hypocrites jumping on the bandwagon for a bit of personal air time or whatever. Hardly means we should write of the whole movement.

I am totally against the violence and destruction and think it's a real shame these things degenerate this way. However, I do support everyone's right to peaceful protest. Vote for idiot A or tosspot B every few years, only for them to reneg on their manifesto promises, is hardly democracy at it's best.

If you are anti government intervention does that mean they should have just let the banks fail?

LOL, Tom. You are worried about a bunch of kids tearing up a park, but say nothing about wall street and the banks decimating neighborhoods, and cities, pensions and wages, nor the republicans who instead of creating jobs, want to bust unions, and triple down on abortion.

And what makes you think the Tea Party is any more important, or wiser than the youth who are just as frustrated, though less articulate?

Truth is, a lot of cash from rich guys goes to state, federal, and local candidates for there own agenda, and enrichment, and that's not fair.

So whose side are you on??

If you are anti government intervention does that mean they should have just let the banks fail?

Absolutely... I've made that point a number of times here . AMHD is notoriously bad as far as finding past comments but I'll do my best to dig them .Basically I go into detail about the elimination of moral hazard and the willingness to take unreasonable risk knowing a bailout was in the offering if things go south .


To start... this one is the most recent one... but I argued against bailout or as we called it here "TARP" (the toxic asset relief program where not one toxic asset was relieved ) since Oct 2008.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/too-big-fail-still-us-610438.html


No, I'm not saying that it is the role of government to ensure success. Rather that it is not their role to undermine it by punitively taxing the masses to dig us out of a hole dug by the bankers
I also write of regulations implemented by the government intent on doing some command and control of the real estate market for the purpose of advancing a social agenda that caused the market problems . In fact it was not lack of regulation ;but as you correctly identified bad regulation that was the problem.

Sorry Tom, but the tarp did relieve the toxic assets from the banks books and holds them until they can be unwound and rectified so they can be put back as positive assets and sold as safe. But the problem really is that the whole financial market was deregulated and exploited in a very greedy manner and blew up the whole freaking economy, and even after the disaster they are fighting to keep doing what they did before, because they are not going to be re regulated anytime soon.

Thanks repubs, for watering down the safety regulations and calling them a failure. Bust up the banks, between investments, financial services, and depositors, and have derivatives fully disclosed, and rated accurately, not only would the market be fair, but less risky for investors and borrowers.

The banks took a good idea, and made it dirty from greed. Letting the fox guard the hen house is what got us here. The government NEVER told the banks to use underhanded trick to get people into houses they couldn't afford, quite the contrary, the banks steered people into new unfairly priced homes and charged fees upfront, and then bought INSURANCE to maximize profits when rising interests and balloon payments became due a year or two later.

They also let people combine their debts with their mortgages by refinancing longer established home owners to drain the equity that was built up over years from the home to their pockets.

Financial over reach, which had nothing to do with government, but crooks gaming the system. Knee jerk reaction isn't the way to get that money back, but taxing some rich guys who benefited this robbery would help relieve a lot of pain.

I agree with Tal it is time to tax the corporate criminals in fact to confiscate their assets, whether that be corporations or individuals and if that means bank failure, that's tough but fair. Until you put criminals out of business you will continue to have corporate crime, so calling fraud a failure of regulation is an ultimate copout

Tut you find it difficult to understand because your system of laws are not based on a constutution that enumerates certain rights .
Now it is true that corporations don't have the same degree of rights as a physical person . But they absolutely do have the same rights as a 'legal person'(persona ficta).




No, they have rights far above what any individual would hope to have.






Your laws ,regardless if based on a constitution or not recognizes rights to persona ficta. It's simply a tradition of western law.





Disagree with this.

Unless you can show me otherwise I would say that few countries in the Western tradition would come to the conclusion that corporations have certain rights as a person. Not in this country anyway. I would say your country would be an exception.




Now that's resolved the only debate is if such an assembly of individuals assembled into corporation should have a right to petition and influence the government that individuals do . If such a collection of people do not have that right then I also can advance the proposition that political parties ;unions ,trade associations like the Teachers unions ;various lawyer guilds etc simularily do not have that right.



As stated above I don't think it is resolved.

In my opinion corporate personhood in your country was badly given and supported by the legal systems in place. It allows corporations too much power and thus enabling them to be the real power behind government.

I understand the role of representative government and the role bodies as trade unions to try and influence government decisions. What I have been saying all along is that this representation is disproportional. It is disproportional because of the legal status you endow upon the artificial person. Yes,it is true that other bodies enjoy the same legal status but this does not make it a level playing field. Far from it.


Tut

You are right TUT, but the guys with the loot want the power that their loot can buy. So they steal your loot to buy their power. That includes buying the judges too! Just to hedge their bets in their favor.

That's a huge problem.

2 Presidents both came in in a down economy . 1 had a business friendly economic plan . 1 doesn't like buisiness and has policies that punish buiness. One in Sept of his 3rd year had 100,000 new jobs (Obama ) .One had 1million new jobs in Sept of his 3rd yead (Reagan) .
The Reagan expansion continued.

So who's model should the country follow again ?

So who's model should the country follow again ?Hello again, tom:

Your comparison is as shoddy as calling my WIN at Monopoly last night a viable economic model, and comparing it to the economy Obama inherited.

But, I'm used to your wing making up its own history.

excon

Tom you apply such false logic to economic outcomes

Ex you are right.. my facts were wrong... it was actually 1.1 million jobs.

Clete what is false about results ? The month Obama took office, unemployment was 7.8 percent.

Obama’s third September in office he created 103,000 jobs .He saw that as an improvement because it was better than the zero jobs created in August, but not large enough to bring down the unemployment rate or to make a claim that we are in recovery.

My logic claims that the Obama anti-business rhetoric ,executive orders ,and regulations are directly responsible for the slow to no recovery. The numbers don't lie . Back in Reagan's day they were concerned about the economy over heating and were talking of ways to slow it down.

By my logic Tom, it's the republicans policy of obstruction, and just say NO, to whatever the president proposes that has stopped a full recovery of this economy.

But I can understand that's the only hope of regaining the white house with the motley crew they have to depend on. King Reagan had a congress that was willing to work with him, Mr Obama does NOT.

What he said

Sorry the President's policies are wrong... that's why the Republicans won't go along with ridiculous spending plans that are already proven to be a formula to failure .

Ah Tom the formula for failure is partisanism.

Then tell that to Obama while he's there .It was his policies ,passed in his 1st 2 years ,that are the failure of today. Republicans were shut out of all the input into things like 'cash for clunkers' ,the stimulus bucket list ,and Obamacare . It is the President and the Dems who have failed .

Perhaps we should take a different tact... they WANT to live in the Park... we we erect a TALL chain link fence completely around the park... to "protect" them from all the homeless people they have such a disdain for.

Sorry the President's policies are wrong ...that's why the Republicans won't go along with rediculous spending plans that are already proven to be a formula to failure .Hello again, tom:

Here's why you're going to lose this debate, and the OWS'rs are going to win.

SAYING that spending for repairing bridges and roads is ridiculous, IS RIDICULOUS. It's something the government is going to have to do anyway, and the people are catching on... Fixing roads and repairing bridges DOES WORK. How can it not? Your right wing blinders are showing themselves again.

excon

Hello again, tom:

Here's why you're gonna lose this debate, and the OWS'rs are gonna win.

SAYING that spending for repairing bridges and roads is ridiculous, IS RIDICULOUS. It's something the government is going to have to do anyway, and the people are catching on... Fixing roads and repairing bridges DOES WORK. How can it not? Your right wing blinders are showing themselves again.

Yeah, so we can have a brand new round of Obama promotional signs. You know of course that most of what Obama does is about him, not the American people.

If the infrastructure repair was going to be the thing that got us out of the Obama depression then he should've done it in the original bucket list . All the money we had for phony pump priming has already been spent.

All the money we had for phony pump priming has already been spent.Hello again, tom:

Ok, then let's pass an emergency tax increase on the wealthy. Do YOU want to drive on a bridge that needs repair?? It doesn't care that you're a right winger. When it crashes, it's going to kill Republicans and Democrats alike.

excon

I don't know where it is a Federal Government responsibility to make sure all roads and bridges are in a state of repair. If for instance the State of Massa~tax~us decided to build a boondoggle tunnel that costs... oh let's say $22 billion (most of it in costs over runs) ;then why should tax payers in Texas pay for it ?

Look ;the days of WPA building Hoover Dams are days gone by. Today's construction projects goes to a very elite and minority group of workers... unionized workers who are part of the reason why costs for such projects are so inflated .
There is no way that huge Robin Hood punative taxation of a small group will do the job of pulling the economy out of the cr@pper .

Reagan showed the way . Make a friendly environment to private business and the exconomy will recover .

I don't know where it is a Federal Government responsibility to make sure all roads and bridges are in a state of repair.

There is no way that huge Robin Hood punative taxation of a small group will do the job of pulling the economy out of the cr@pper . Hello again, tom:

Couple things...

As you're falling into the water because the bridge you were driving on collapsed, you can blame the state.. Personally, I wouldn't care who paid for it. But, that's just me.

I didn't say anything about taxing the rich to pull the economy out of the crapper.. Just to pay for a few bridges and roads to get fixed.. Surely, they can pay for that, and STILL have a few jillion left over.. They DO drive, don't they?

excon

Hello again, tom:

Ok, then let's pass an emergency tax increase on the wealthy. Do YOU wanna drive on a bridge that needs repair??? It doesn't care that you're a right winger. When it crashes, it's gonna kill Republicans and Democrats alike.

excon

How about passing an Emergency tax increase on the 47% that aren't paying any Federal taxes now... or has someone dreamed up a way to extract 2 gallons of blood without killing the donor?

How about passing an Emergency tax increase on the 47% that aren't paying any Federal taxes now....Hello again, smoothy:

We've been over, and over, and then over again about this particular issue. You STILL misstate the facts... You're not going to convince anybody that way. No, I'm not going to use this space to correct you again.. It does no good.

excon

I didn't say anything about taxing the rich to pull the economy out of the crapper.. Just to pay for a few bridges and roads to get fixed.. Surely, they can pay for that, and STILL have a few jillion left over.. They DO drive, don't they??

Warren Buffet is worth what, $45 billion? Soros another $22 billion? These guys allegedly WANT to be taxed more so if they'd just cough up $65 billion of that they'd still have a billion left each and we could spend all that on fixing a few of those bridges. It's the patriotic thing to do.

It's the patriotic thing to do.Hello, again, Steve:

It would be. Now, if we could get some of those PHONEY patriots to pony up too, we could get going. What?? Investing in the country ISN'T patriotic?? Dude!

excon

You could take all their money and it wouldn't make a dent in the funding needed nationwide for either the infrastructure development proposed or balancing the budgets of the nation or the states .

This is all bs. The President just suspended a decision on a major infrastructure initiative that would've created immediate jobs in a number of states . There is no logic to his decision except for the fact that the Koch Brothers would get a piece of the profit.

This is all bs. Hello again, tom:

It IS. Both sides are playing chicken with the economy. We should throw 'em ALL out.

As wacky as Ron Paul is on some things, I'm going to support him this time around too.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

We've been over, and over, and then over again about this particular issue. You STILL misstate the facts... You're not gonna convince anybody that way. No, I'm not gonna use this space to correct you again.. It does no good.

excon

What... the fact that the left somehow ignores the other facts that if they taxed the so-called Rich at 100% and simply TOOK everything they owned... its still wouldn't put a dent in the dedbt or solve anything... and would in fact make everything far worse.

So why can't the left grasp the concept of making the 47% pay their fair share after all is the only FAIR thing to do? They are going to be a vacuum and suck all the benefits, they should at least share in the pain by paying an equal percentage of their income.

I just figured it out! Tom you just can't count. A .5% tax fixes the bridges, builds schools and fixes roads, as well as hiring teachers, and . A 5% tax on the second million raises a trillion dollars, over 10 years. A one percent raise in the SS tax makes SS solvent until 2075, and its solvent now at least until 2032.

My point is small changes help a lot, and can be done right now to create jobs, expand the tax base, and start raising millions out of poverty. The states do play a large role already, in coordinating and making projects shovel ready, so what's the hold up? Republicans who have to make the president look weak to get the election results they want so they can suck more money fro the system and make more slaves for their masters.

OH, and the stimulus money is still being spent on the state level. Just ask Rick Perry, whose legislature is still spending it on projects across Texas. They just don't let him get his MITTS on it any longer because he is a proven fiscal screw up.

Learn to count Tom, so you can have the facts to go along with rants and opinions. What the facts won't change your opinions??

Tal... and you actually believe those claims...

Obama is weak... he doesn't need anyone to make him look that way...

Or was his actual agenda always to wreck the US enconomy?

If he wasn't weak, and wrong about everything... we wouldn't be in an Obama indced double dip recession right now.

Besides I thought all of that "Stimulous" spending was to keep the unemployment from going above 8% and the economy from turning into the cesspool it is right now.

And you want to believe ANOTHER 0.5% tax on the rich will not only solve the SSI ponzi scheme... but cure all of the other ills as well?

Jeeze, talk about being conned into something. Lets see some math to figure out how those claims can possibly work... even without taking into account the contraction that's going to have negative ripple effects in all sectors of the economy.

Got to protect the lazy 47% from having ANY responsibility to pay for their handouts...

Hello, again, Steve:

It would be. Now, if we could get some of those PHONEY patriots to pony up too, we could get going. What??? Investing in the country ISN'T patriotic???? Dude!

Dude, the phoney patriots are these millionaires and billionaires like Buffet and Soros who don't have to wait on a tax increase to send their patriotic billions in. I'll make it easy for anyone that wants to do so, here's the address:

Department of the Treasury
1500 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20220

Tal....and you actually believe those claims.....

Obama is weak....he doesn't need anyone to make him look that way...

Or was his actual agenda always to wreck the US enconomy?

If he wasn't weak, and wrong about everything...we wouldn't be in an Obama indced double dip recession right now.

Besides I thought all of that "Stimulous" spending was to keep the unemployment from goign above 8% and the economy from turning into the cesspool it is right now.

And you want to believe ANOTHER 0.5% tax on the rich will not only solve the SSI ponzi scheme...but cure all of the other ills as well?

Jeeze, talk about being conned into something. Lets see some math to figure out how those claims can possibly work....even without taking into account the contraction thats going to have negative ripple effects in all sectors of the economy.

Got to protect the lazy 47% from having ANY responsibility to pay for their handouts....

Don't twist my words smoothy, do the math!! The .5 percent tax raises almost 80 billion a year for infrastructure, and jobs. I did the math. And that's the low estimate. We all pay a 1 percent tax on SS. And we ALL benefit from SS and jobs, and roads. None of which is a handout either. Now a 5 percent tax on the SECOND million dollars, plus letting the Bush tax cuts expire, takes a huge chunk from the rights wings dreaded deficit.

And I am glad this weak president had the wear with all to at least stabilize finances for the freaking world, and maybe he didn't save it, but I know some fat rich, greedy job creators that are sitting on trillions, and banks that are hoarding, and some right wingers who still have a job so they can thumb there nose at the people who don't, and call them names.

But by your logic, we should be grateful to those addicted to money and power and the enablers like you who defend them. They have a right to tell us what to do, and give you a few bucks, so you can feel better about yourself, by tearing down those that you THINK are beneath you.

What a delusion!! But if you righties can't count anything but your own measly bucks, That's not my fault.

Dude, the phoney patriots are these millionaires and billionaires like Buffet and Soros who don't have to wait on a tax increase to send their patriotic billions in. I'll make it easy for anyone that wants to do so, here's the address:

Department of the Treasury
1500 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20220

Haven't you heard, they found a better way to keep control over the money, they set up foundations, take a charity exemption, and run the foundation. They don't care about taxes or gifts, they have plenty of hiding places for their loot, both long and short term. They don't need a stamp, they have accountants, lawyers, and lobbyists.

They laugh at you defending them and their tax cuts, because they know good and well they already have the tools and means to make paying taxes a moot point to them. Dude, do you really think they need your advice on what to do with their MONEY? REALLY? Really?

Don't twist my words smoothy, do the math!!! The .5 percent tax raises almost 80 billion a year for infrastructure, and jobs. I did the math. and thats the low estimate. We all pay a 1 percent tax on SS. And we ALL benefit from SS and jobs, and roads. None of which is a handout either. Now a 5 percent tax on the SECOND million dollars, plus letting the Bush tax cuts expire, takes a huge chunk from the rights wings dreaded deficit.

And I am glad this weak president had the wear with all to at least stabilize finances for the freaking world, and maybe he didn't save it, but I know some fat rich, greedy job creators that are sitting on trillions, and banks that are hoarding, and some right wingers who still have a job so they can thumb there nose at the people who don't, and call them names.

But by your logic, we should be grateful to those addicted to money and power and the enablers like you who defend them. They have a right to tell us what to do, and give you a few bucks, so you can feel better about yourself, by tearing down those that you THINK are beneath you.

What a delusion!!! But if you righties can't count anything but your own measly bucks, Thats not my fault.

SO explain why the uber-lefties... like The Kennedys Soros... Obama.. Buffet... the Hollywood types... don't hand over thein millions or Billions and fix the problem once and for all if you all are so convinced that is going to fix everything... you know like the 1.4 TRILLION dollar stimulus was supposed to, but didn't except ramp of the national debt by orders of magnitude.

But No... THEY don't want to hand over THEIR money... they want the productive part of society to hand theirs over... while they keep theirs.


Personally every time Obama starts moving his lips , more lies... damn lies... and outright lies come spilling out of it. Hip waders aren't even enough anymore to stem off the tide of manure that oozes out of the Whitehouse these days.

I keep telling you guys OPM, that's not opium which I think you are smokin, but you don't listen instead you complain about a few people with their money. This is a credit crunch and OPM is in short supply. If you took all their money away it would not fix the problem because you have been spending OPM, long, long time now, and if they have no money no one will have any money. There is only one way, we had to do it and so do you, you have to take a salary cut, live in a smaller house, drive a smaller car and loose the servants, close the borders, and definitely stay at home.

I keep telling you guys OPM, that's not opium which I think you are smokin, but you don't listen instead you complain about a few people with their money. This is a credit crunch and OPM is in short supply. If you took all their money away it would not fix the problem because you have been spending OPM, long, long time now, and if they have no money no one will have any money. there is only one way, we had to do it and so do you, you have to take a salary cut, live in a smaller house, drive a smaller car and loose the servants, close the borders, and definately stay at home.

Exactly... the lefties are always generous with OPM (Other Peoples Money) never their own.

And historically... the tight wads as far as charitable contributions are always the lefties.

They cleared out Zuccotti park yesterday. Today they are delousing it . They else cleared out the encampment in Oakland. Will look for before and after pictures because it is my understanding that a beautiful public park there has been reduced to mud and trampled straw.

Louts are everywhere Tom particularly around pseudo political causes. This OWS movement is nothing more than a bowel movement

I keep telling you guys OPM, that's not opium which I think you are smokin, but you don't listen instead you complain about a few people with their money. This is a credit crunch and OPM is in short supply. If you took all their money away it would not fix the problem because you have been spending OPM, long, long time now, and if they have no money no one will have any money. there is only one way, we had to do it and so do you, you have to take a salary cut, live in a smaller house, drive a smaller car and loose the servants, close the borders, and definately stay at home.

What country are you talking about? Nobody said anything about taking someone's money. After the rich pay their fair share, they still are really, really rich. And most middle class workers don't have servants, or big houses. You have been reading to many tourist magazines or something, and we have far more options than your island nation, if the conservatives could count, and get there noses out the butts of the super rich, and deal with the facts and not the fiction of there own rhetoric.

Hello again,

The people have been aroused... Cleaning a park ain't going to stop it.. Calling 'em names ain't going to stop it. In fact, ain't NOTHING going to stop it.. Those, who HAVE no memory of our history, or choose to remain ignorant of it, are destined to relive it... Bummer for you.

We changed the world once. We're about to do it again.

excon

Nobody said anything about taking someone's money.

That's exactly what you are talking about.

We changed the world once. We're about to do it again.

The French thought they were changing the world with mob~ocracy in 1789 . They ended up with a military dictator by 1804.

LOL, taking a few million from a billionare is wrong, but taking food stamps from someone with nothing is right.

Go figure the logic in that one.

Who said I approved of taking food stamps from the people who truly need them ?

The French thought they were changing the world with mob~ocracy in 1789 . They ended up with a military dictator by 1804.Hello again, tom:

It's a dangerous time. The OWS'rs didn't bring it. They just noticed it, and it pissed them off. Can we keep our democracy? Time will tell.

excon

What country are you talking about? Nobody said anything about taking someones money. After the rich pay their fair share, they still are really, really rich. and most middle class workers don't have servants, or big houses. You have been reading to many tourist magazines or something, and we have far more options than your island nation, if the conservatives could count, and get there noses out the butts of the super rich, and deal with the facts and not the fiction of there own rhetoric.

Gee the rich pay the lions share now... while 47% pay nothing... want to talk about someone paying their fair share... the 47% are way overdue to step up and do thair part for once.

Gee the rich pay the lions share now...while 47% pay nothing....Hello again, smoothy:

You make yourself irrelevant when you continue to spread stuff, that you KNOW not to be true.. But, you represent YOUR side very well. FACTS mean NOTHING to you...

Carry on. Standing by to call you again...

excon

That's a blatant misrepresentation. 47% pay taxes, and get refunds, but they pay taxes. Not as much as Warren Buffet, or the banks, and making money is an individual thing. Why don't the rich guys who suck all the money out of the economy for fun step up and fix some bridges?

Oh that's right, a poor joker making slave wages should be doing that while the fat cats count the money the stole.

What exactly is a "slave wage"?

And I asked that question yesterday, why don't all those "patriotic millionaires" and billionaires put their money where their mouth is? Who has been the first to step up and toss in a few billion to fix a few bridges instead of running their mouth about paying less in taxes than his secretary? No one is stopping them, and again here's the address for them to demonstrate their patriotism whenever they're ready to cut a check.

Department of the Treasury
1500 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20220

Hello Steve:

I don't know... Why are you running turnips for president?

As long as you keep spreading right wing gospel, I'll answer with left wing stuff... And, the band played on.

excon

I wonder what Buffett would say if he was threatened with Cap gains tax increases instead of income tax increases ?
Not that I'm in favor of that . I think cap gains should be tax exempt.It's double taxation and hurts the middle class more than the rich so everyone should favor it's elimination.

The people have been aroused...

Who has been aroused? Most of the people are long past fed up with the occupiers, and once they block traffic again and otherwise disrupt people's lives on their little march it's only going to get worse for them.


We changed the world once. We're about to do it again.

Change to what? I'm still waiting for them to clarify their "one demand (http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/hey-president-obama-our-one-demand.html)." For the most part these are college kids who think they're entitled to whatever it is they think they're entitled to and whatever it is must be the right thing simply because they feel so passionate about it. Whaaa!

I don't know... Why are you running turnips for president?

I'm not running any of them, but Gingrich is no turnip.


As long as you keep spreading right wing gospel, I'll answer with left wing stuff... And, the band played on.

What right-wing gospel? Telling hypocrite billionaires to put their money where their mouth is should have bipartisan support.

Who has been aroused? Most of the people are long past fed up with the occupiers, and once they block traffic again and otherwise disrupt people's lives on their little march it's only going to get worse for them.



Change to what? I'm still waiting for them to clarify their "one demand (http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/hey-president-obama-our-one-demand.html)." For the most part these are college kids who think they're entitled to whatever it is they think they're entitled to and whatever it is must be the right thing simply because they feel so passionate about it. Whaaa!

Afterburner with Bill Whittle: Three and a Half Days - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/embed/OAOrT0OcHh0?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showi)

What right-wing gospel? Telling hypocrite billionaires to put their money where their mouth is should have bipartisan support.Hello again, Steve:

You're not just calling THEM hypocrites. You're calling me one also. I, TOO, would be willing to pay more taxes if it contributed to the recovery of my country... But, I'm not going to write a check, until it becomes law, and I'm not hypocrite because I won't. In fact, to call me that, because I support my country, is kind of low.

In truth, my WILLINGNESS to support my country, shows my patriotism. Your attack on it shows ______ (fill in the blank).

excon

Afterburner with Bill Whittle: Three and a Half Days - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/embed/OAOrT0OcHh0?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showi)Hello tom:

I didn't listen past the name calling - just like I don't listen to you when you call names.. I LOVED the graphics, though.

excon

No, I'm not calling you a hypocrite. I don't put a willingness to pay more if asked to do so in the same category as complaining that you don't pay enough in taxes when you can send in as much as you want. Buffet and Soros don't really want to pay more in taxes or they would already be doing so.

Hello again, smoothy:

You make yourself irrelevant when you continue to spread stuff, that you KNOW not to be true.. But, you represent YOUR side very well. FACTS mean NOTHING to you...

Carry on. Standing by to call you again...

excon

Really ex... exactly where are you getting YOUR information from.

The top 10 percent of tax payers... your so-called rich pay 71% of the entire federal taxes... and you and Tal for two are arguing that's still not enough... when 47% pay ZERO% of the Federal taxes...

The Top 10 Percent of Income Earners Paid 71 Percent of Federal Income Tax (http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/top10-percent-income-earners)

when 47% pay ZERO% of the Federal taxes...Hello again, smoothy:

For the 15th, and most likely NOT the last time, the group who you say pays NO federal taxes, PAY federal unemployment taxes, they pay federal social security taxes, they pay federal payroll taxes, they pay federal FICA taxes, they pay federal highway taxes, they pay federal excise taxes, they pay federal telephone taxes, and there's probably another 15 federal taxes that they pay that I'm not aware of...

The BULK of the federal budget comes from THOSE taxes and not income taxes... But, I've said this before. You'll ignore me this time, just like you have all the rest... I'm used to it. That's my job - setting the record straight...

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

For the 15th, and most likely NOT the last time, the group who you say pays NO federal taxes, PAY federal unemployment taxes, they pay federal social security taxes, they pay federal payroll taxes, they pay federal FICA taxes, they pay federal highway taxes, they pay federal excise taxes, they pay federal telephone taxes, and there's probably another 15 federal taxes that they pay that I'm not aware of...

The BULK of the federal budget comes from THOSE taxes and not income taxes... But, I've said this before. You'll ignore me this time, just like you have all the rest... I'm used to it. That's my job - setting the record straight...

exconIf you believe that... then why are you harping on a group that already pays far more than its fair share... How about making that 47% pull its weight for a change... if its such an insignificant amount,

Hello again, smoothy:

For the 15th, and most likely NOT the last time, the group who you say pays NO federal taxes, PAY federal unemployment taxes, they pay federal social security taxes, they pay federal payroll taxes, they pay federal FICA taxes, they pay federal highway taxes, they pay federal excise taxes, they pay federal telephone taxes, and there's probably another 15 federal taxes that they pay that I'm not aware of...

The BULK of the federal budget comes from THOSE taxes and not income taxes... But, I've said this before. You'll ignore me this time, just like you have all the rest... I'm used to it. That's my job - setting the record straight...

exconIf you believe that... then why are you harping on a group that already pays far more than its fair share... How about making that 47% pull its weight for a change... if its such an insignificant amount,

THe left seems to believe raising the taxes of that 10% to total confication will somehow CURE everything... strange if its such an insignifcant amount how that will do anything except further increase the unemployment rates.

how that will do anything except further increase the unemployment rates.
Let's try it and see.

Let's try it and see.

If you mean making the 47% pay their fair share, I'm all for it...

If you mean the already overtaxed wealthy, I'd rather not... the current administration has made such a mess of things as it is... doing that will guarantee businesses will close, and/or move offshore. And when that happens... its not going to reverse any time soon. And if you think its bad now... just wait. I'm not rich by any stretch... but you can make it bad enough I will take it overseas... and that is significantly NOT an obsticle for those with lots of money. And when that happens... you lose that tax base... since the top 10% pays 70% now... that is VERY significant.

Forget it WG, conservatives blast any ideas that they don't believe in. That's exactly why NOTHING gets done. That's why they tell that tall tale about the 47% that DON'T pay taxes, when ALL the evidence says they do.

There whole agenda is keeping them in power so they can keep the world they love and are comfortable with intact. That's why they protest in the streets, both young and old, and repeal the policies that are clearly unfair to the many, in many states where New republican Governors try to usurp rights, and steal more money so they can appease their corporate masters.

They may be the loudest crowd around, but I think its clear that the rest of us are tired of being tinkled on... I mean trickled on. Facts mean nothing to a conservative, because self preservation by any means necessary is there true agenda, and telling everyone who disagrees with them they have no value is the means they perpetrate this agenda.

They simply cannot count, and don't feel they have to, because fair is not the agenda, subjugation is. Haven't they proven it by their rhetoric? Aimed at everyone BUT themselves.

If you mean making the 47% pay their fair share, I'm all for it...
Um, they're the ones who've lost their jobs because the wealthy corporate owners took the jobs overseas, moved offshore, moved their plants to Mexico to find cheap labor. They'd be glad to pay their fair share if they had paychecks.

If you mean making the 47% pay their fair share, I'm all for it...

If you mean the already overtaxed wealthy, I'd rather not....the current administration has made such a mess of things as it is...doing that will guarentee businesses will close, and/or move offshore. And when that happens...its not going to reverse any time soon. And if you think its bad now...just wait. I'm not rich by any stretch...but you can make it bad enough I will take it overseas...and that is significantly NOT an obsticle for those with lots of money. And when that happens...you lose that tax base....since the top 10% pays 70% now...that is VERY significant.

LMAO!! Overtaxed wealthy?? Leaving?? I DARE YOU!! I DOUBLE DARE YOU!!

Smoothy why don't you leave now? Where would you go? Europe? Australia? They will all tax you more but they will give you more in return

I doubt they leave Clete, and there is nothing you have that we don't have for the really rich guys here. But you can have them all.

America, love it, or leave it! WOW I sound like a righties!!

Tal, don't get me wrong, we don't want them, we have our own crop of billionaires and millionaires and I'll say this for them, they stay out of our face. Some, like that idiot Hogan, get chased by the tax boys but generally they pay their tax and don't complain when the rates change

Our rich guys have politicians to do their bidding for them.

conservatives blast any ideas that they don't believe in

And of course you reasonably consider the ones we do.