Update... some lawyer union group got an injunction against NYC ;but a state judge smacked them down .

Now the OWS has the right to protest just like everyone else does... which means go home at the end of the day. (hint... a good time to use daddy's shower)

Afterburner with Bill Whittle: Three and a Half Days - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/embed/OAOrT0OcHh0?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showi)


"Every civilization collapses the same way"

A massive generalization and absolute nonsense.

Civilizations have collapsed for a variety of reasons. Some causes have absolutely nothing to do with the fault of its citizens. For example, natural disasters, protracted wars, invasion, rapid climate change. In many cases there is no historians agreement as to the actual causes of the decline of some civilizations.

This nonsense being his initial premise the rest of his argument tends to follow suit.

We don't have to chop wood and hunt because corporations do these unpleasant things for us? NO, we don't have to do these things because this is the level of sophistication we are born into.

Should we be grateful that corporations purify our water? Does he mean in the same way Hobbes' Leviathan tells us we should be grateful to the sovereign power for giving us self protection in exchange for giving up our freedoms and liberties?

Should we be grateful when corporations demand their rights under personhood and seek to pay massive amounts of money to politicians? Should we also be grateful when corporations seek to influence local laws and regulations that are seen as an impediment to 'its' (sorry, him/her's) progress.

Bill Whittle needs to get out of the 16th century and have a look at modern ideas of social contract theory.

Tom, you keep telling us to be on the lookout for the Leviathan. I think you are giving excellent advice. The only problem is you are looking for it in the wrong place.

Tut

Tom is like all conservatives he wants it all his own way, which means no change to the established order.

The occupiers got kicked out, but they came back, without the tents, but they came back. Not over by any means.

Tom is like all conservatives he wants it all his own way, which means no change to the established order.

Hi Clete,

Yes, no change to the establish order.

On that basis Tom might be happy with opening the flood gates for a corporate exploitation of the 14 Amendment.

Corporations have vast amounts of money and resources so it shouldn't be a problem squeezing every little bit out of the this particular amendment to advance the interests of the artificial person.

In keeping with the theme of this particular thread and to answer Steve's question ( not an easy thing to do with such a confused and lawless rabble). But, the one demand of the OWS movement should be to reign in the power of the corporate Leviathan.

Isn't that what they are really protesting about? On the other hand, perhaps they should do a Bill Whittle and go home and be grateful for corporations.

Tut

But, the one demand of the OWS movement should be to reign in the power of the corporate Leviathan.

Isn't that what they are really protesting about?

Yup, (or at least the way the government has distorted capitalism with it's regulations designed to pick winners in the market place ;and to command and control the economy ), and it should be conducted in Washington DC ;not on the streets of NY and Oakland. The reason those protests have had any traction is because those cities are run by lib weenies.


We don't have to chop wood and hunt because corporations do these unpleasant things for us? NO, we don't have to do these things because this is the level of sophistication we are born into.

Please... we've seen how these protesters ,left to their own resources devolved into 'Lord of the Flies ' savages .

On that basis Tom might be happy with opening the flood gates for a corporate exploitation of the 14 Amendment.


Ask the libs. The 14th amendment has been the key addition that propelled the US into a 20th century nanny-state (that and judicial activism that decided a farmer didn't have the right to grow wheat for his own personal use ).

Would I like the 14th amendment amended ? Absolutely .It is singularily responsible for the massive influx of illegal aliens .

yup, (or at least the way the government has distorted capitalism with it's regulations designed to pick winners in the market place ;and to command and control the economy ), and it should be conducted in Washington DC ;not on the streets of NY and Oakland. The reason those protests have had any traction is because those cities are run by lib weenies.



Governments have always distorted capitalism, ever since the time of Adam Smith. That has always been a given.

There might be winners and losers when it comes to small business. You are not going to try and tell me multinationals are ever going to be losers in the face of regulation?




Please ....we've seen how these protesters ,left to their own resources devolved into 'Lord of the Flies ' savages .

[/QUOTE]


Lord of the Flies is just Hobbes revisited. So you support the nonsense expounded by Bill Whittle in the link?

Tut

There might be winners and losers when it comes to small business. You are not going to try and tell me multinationals are ever going to be losers in the face of regulation?


No what I contend is that the regulations set up the conditions where multinationals and large so called too big to fail corporations exist.
It's a chicken and egg thing. Left to their own devices corporations have to compete with all comers and let the best one win. But increased regulations drive out the smaller competitors because the costs of compliance become prohibitive . Then the larger companies gobble up the market share and take advantage of the reduced competition.
Where you get it right is the relationship that emerges between these large companies and the government . Where you get it wrong is the cause .

So you support the nonsense expounded by Bill Whittle in the link?

Now why would I have posted it otherwise ?

Dems were quick to criticize (http://thehill.com/homenews/house/193853-dems-criticize-eviction-of-occupy-wall-street-protesters) the eviction of course, but I just want to highlight one Democrat's comment:

Rep. John Larson (D-Conn.), a prominent supporter of the Occupy Wall Street activists, said Bloomberg’s move is no threat to the larger movement, which he characterized as “the embodiment of the frustrations of the American people.”

Much, much larger segments of America protested an overreaching government and they were mocked, criticized, insulted, called every nasty thing in the book - and that was just by elected Democrats. But a small group of malcontents that can't make up their mind what their "one demand" is embody the frustrations of the American people? Yeah, whatever, Americans are all ready to blow up Macy's and burn down New York (content warning):

ilq_66LnRaw

Hello again, Steve:

50 years ago a movement got underway that changed the world.. In the beginning, people called them names too. They said they were dirty.. They said they were socialists/anarchists/rapists, too..

But, change the world, they did. This one will too. Hang on for the ride of your life.

excon

There was one in 1917 too... its clear that one turned out splendedly.

In honor of your nostalgia /bad trip flash back...

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

How long did it take before Woodstock turned into ugly Altamont Free Concert ?

Edit... just remembered a better anthem...

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can

LOL, so you think the big guys gobble up the little guys because of regulations? That's an interesting assertion since they have been doing it for decades, and the GOP presidential hopefuls have specifically pointed to this present administrations regulations as a job killer. But back to the occupiers and your assertion they should occupy Washington, and not New York,

'Occupy DC' Allowed To Keep Occupying Washington Park | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/15/occupy-dc-allowed-to-keep-occupying-washington-park/)

Where have you been? Its all over America, not just in NY.

But, change the world, they did. This one will too. Hang on for the ride of your life.

So you're OK with burning down the city?

So you're ok with burning down the city?Hello again, Steve:

Just like you're for throwing your trash into the air.

excon

LOL, so you think the big guys gobble up the little guys because of regulations?

I know so . When it gets cost prohibitive to run a business the owners make the best deal they can make selling their business to the bigger company... or they just bailout.

I know so . When it gets cost prohibitive to run a business the owners make the best deal they can make selling their business to the bigger company...or they just bailout.Hello tom:

Maybe that's how the BIG guys do it, but I don't have a golden parachute, and I need to keep my company going... You're right about regulations, though.. I HATE 'em, and they cost me x dollars to comply. But, they've ALWAYS been there, and always will. I don't see a cascade of 'em coming my way like you're talking about. In the final analysis, whatever they are, they're simply a cost of doing business, like rent.

Besides, if I gave up every time some bureaucrat gave me sh!t, I'd have been toast long ago... Fortunately, demand is up for my business.. That's the only barometer I go by. It's the only barometer ANY businessman my size goes by.

excon

In the final analysis, whatever they are, they're simply a cost of doing business, like rent.

Sometimes they just get prohibitive .
If I wanted to do a start up like Jobs in a small facility in my business I could've done so 25 years ago. Now... impossible . I'd have to secure all types of up front cash just to do the lab work... capital that newbees just don't have . I'd also have to upfront hire well salaried people to staff my regulatory office with so many new regs that have come down in just the last decade .

Lord of the Flies is just Hobbes revisited. So you support the nonsense expounded by Bill Whittle in the link?


Look ;there was already a respiratory infection going around the NYC encampment .

Perhaps Mayor Bloomy should've let these fools endure a nor-easter in January... let's see if they have the fortitude and will power of the patriots at the Valley Forge encampment; or if Whittle is correct .

And I'm sure like everyone else you pass those "costs of doing business" on to the customer. And our good friend in the White House thinks that's OK even though it won't hurt the "1 percent," it will hurt me.

Remember when he said "Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket"? He knows - and quite often it is the intent - that regulations make things much more expensive.

He knows - and quite often it is the intent - that regulations make things much more expensive.Hello again, Steve:

Oh, it's true... They make some things more expensive, like polluting... doncha think that should be more expensive?? You breath too. Then there's the ones that make things LESS expensive, like milk, and gasoline. I don't hear you sniveling about those.

excon

Subsidies are another subject. But am I right, you pass those costs along to the customer?

Then there's the ones that make things LESS expensive, like milk, and gasoline. I don't hear you sniveling about those.


You mean subsidies or price supports ? I'm clear in my opposition to those too.

Subsidies are another subject. But am I right, you pass those costs along to the customer?Hello again, Steve:

When the price of paper goes up, I pass it on to my customer.. When the price of ink goes up, I pass it on to my customer. When ANY of my costs go up, I pass it on to my customer... Prices have been going up since the beginning. What's your point? Are you now a consumer advocate?

excon

What's your point?

You're a smart guy, you know the point. You said regulations are "simply a cost of doing business, like rent." If you pass those costs on to me they become my expenses, not yours.

And those subsidies price supports or whatever, let's start with ending them for ethanol.

And no more regulations on milk?

If you pass those costs on to me they become my expenses, not yours. Hello again, Steve:

Isn't it a right wing argument that CORPORATE taxes are not born by corporations?? It's TRUE.. ALL business's pass the cost of doing business on to their customers.. Or, at least, they try to. Some can't, and fail.

Now, you COULD blame the cost of regulations, or you COULD blame the cost of office supplies. They ALL go up... They always have.

But, you're not the spender of last resort... You, too, like any entity in the economy, pass those costs on. You DO renegotiate your salary now and then, don't you?

excon

Milk needs regulations . What it doesn't need is price supports. Every product containing milk in this country is over priced due to Federal meddling in the market.

Subsidies are another subject. But am I right, you pass those costs along to the customer?

They also pass loss revenues on to us also. For example when the price of gas raises food costs or ticket prices. Or the lack of demand makes them produce less, but charge more for what they do produce.

Cap and trade was designed way back in the day to allow high polluters with the ability to but credits against cost from lower polluters. Thus providing a revenue stream for low polluters, and savings in costs for high polluters as the develop ways to get those cost down themselves, through technology development, or upgrades in older equipment for which they get credits for.

What Does "Cap and Trade" Mean? (http://www.generationgreen.org/cap-trade.htm)

Emissions trading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading)

And this is a very interesting thing to know about the current conflicts under this administration.

Obama's Cap-and-Trade Plan - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_11/b4123022554346.htm)

As we see the coal producing power plants don't want to enrich the other low emissions producers. Just notice who is for it, and whose not, and the reasons for their positions. Just as a side note Steve, check out the new plants being built in Texas to eliminate the older ones.

Fuel Fix Texas power plant gets first greenhouse gas permit from EPA (http://fuelfix.com/blog/2011/11/10/texas-power-plant-gets-first-greenhouse-gas-permit-from-epa/)


The EPA seized the state’s authority to regulate the largest industrial sources of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases last year. Texas is the only state that has refused to implement new nationwide rules and has filed suit to block them.

Texas Electric Power Plants and the New EPA Emission Limit - Power to Choose - Zimbio (http://www.zimbio.com/Power+to+Choose/articles/Rp4B7o947dQ/Texas+Electric+Power+Plants+New+EPA+Emission)


The EPA however, made clear that power plants still have up to March of 2013 to comply with the requirements without incurring any serious penalties. The agency believes that this provides enough time for these power plants to prepare and gradually reduce emission levels. Still, politicians and power plant operators still express doubts on whether full compliance to this new regulation can be achieved.

It should be noted that the Texas heat makes pollution emissions dangerous to humans and animals as it activates these emissions in the air. We had that air quality talk before, of which its decidedly different in Amarillo, and is a big deal in Dallas/Fort Worth.

But, you're not the spender of last resort... You, too, like any entity in the economy, pass those costs on. You DO renegotiate your salary now and then, don't you?

Who doesn't? My salary increase doesn't necessarily get passed on. If I become more productive then that can make up the difference.

milk needs regulations . What it doesn't need is price supports. Every product containing milk in this country is over priced due to Federal meddling in the market.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_0707_47.pdf


In this year’s farm bill, the Democrats have a chance
To repeal the special interest giveaways of prior Republican
Farm bills, including the regressive “milk tax.”

For once we agree.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_0707_47.pdf



For once we agree.

Except for the nonsense about Republicans being responsible for this . Milk price supports probably go back to the depression era and it certainly has been a reality my whole life... and as I recall the Dems loved giving away that free government cheese.

From the same link,


The federal government has subsidized and regulated
The dairy industry since the 1930s. A system of “marketing
order” regulations was enacted in 1937. A dairy price
Support program was added in 1949. An income support
Program for dairy farmers was added in 2002.
As part of this year’s farm bill, Congress may
Reauthorize dairy programs, but they are among the most
Illogical of all farm programs.1 The government spends
Billions of dollars reducing food costs through programs
Such as food stamps, yet dairy programs increase milk
Prices. Dairy programs create milk cartels, yet federal law
Generally prohibits cartels. Current dairy policies don’t
Make any sense, and they are ripe for repeal in 2007.

A bit of the back story behind those subsidies though,

Milking Trade Subsidies - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124440805084892125.html)

Protecting the American Diary market against dumping from other countries. Sort of like China does.

except for the nonsense about Republicans being responsible for this . Milk price supports probably go back to the depression era and it certainly has been a reality my whole life......... and as I recall the Dems loved giving away that free government cheese.

Yep, since the 30s

Milk Madness (http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_0707_47.pdf)

Ex, you said something about calling them "dirty" 50 years ago. So far, there have been outbreaks of scabies, tuberculosis and multiple outbreaks of lice among the occupiers. But I know, what can you expect from people living that closely together who crap in plastic bags and otherwise have no running water or sanitation.

Ex, you said something about calling them "dirty" 50 years ago. So far, there have been outbreaks of scabies, tuberculosis and multiple outbreaks of lice among the occupiers.Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, changing the world ain't purty.

excon

Yeah, it's hazardous to your health. But you are a fan of health regulations, right?

But you are a fan of health regulations, right?Hello again, Steve:

I'm more a fan of changing the world... Look, who's going to care about a turd or two when leadership of the free world is at stake?

excon

I have a dog so a turd or two is no big deal, but I'm no fan of communicable diseases or parasites.

Hello again, Steve:

Look, I'll engage you, but you don't seem to be able to get passed who the protesters are as people... I'm simply suggesting that you're missing the bigger picture... There's MORE going on here than dirt.

excon

I have a dog so a turd or two is no big deal, but I'm no fan of communicable diseases or parasites.
What about clean food and drink?

The cops and sanitation workers are probably getting paid overtime, and the occupiers would be better served by protesting all day, and going home at night, like a regular job. Specially with winter coming.

We could hope a few of them die from exposure... maybe that will wake them up to reality.

Look ;there was already a respiratory infection going around the NYC encampment .

Perhaps Mayor Bloomy should've let these fools endure a nor-easter in January ....let's see if they have the fortitude and will power of the patriots at the Valley Forge encampment; or if Whittle is correct .


Hi Tom,

If Bill Whittle says they should go home then I agree with him. I've been saying that all along. Nonetheless, you miss my point. I am critical of Whittle because of the reasons he puts forward as to why they should go home.

Whittle says OWS protestors should go home and be grateful to corporations for what they have given us. Grateful in the same way Hobbes says we should be grateful to the sovereign power for affording us protection. According to Hobbes we should be willing to do this in exchange for giving up our liberties and freedoms.

Yes, OWS protestors no need to worry.Go home and be thankful for the way things are and let the corporations get on with what they do best.

Tom, you are happy with this 16th century social contract theory being the basis for OWS protestors going home?

To say all civilizations collapse in the same way is nonsense. He backs up this claim with a graph showing exponential growth. The graph has no labels. It could just as easily represent the exponential grow of a fruit fly population.

His argument is nonsense on stilts

Tut

Where his point is valid is that the protesters are completely detached from what it takes to get food in their mouths and ipods in their hands. They just expect to get things they feel entitled to.

I see it in the public hearings I attend. We want the electricity uninterrupted but don't build a power plant near my house. We want cell phone service but that tower is unsightly ,build it somewhere else.
We like out food prepackaged but are grossed out at the inherent conditions of a slaughter factory that mass produces the food we eat... and fewer do their own hunting and field dressing ;fishing ,or even getting their fingers dirty planting and maintaining a garden.

His challenge is a legit one to consider. We recently had a freak snow storm in October and some people lost electricity for a number of days as the maintenance crews cleaned the debris and slowly rehooked the transmission lines. Well by the reaction you would've think Armegeddon had arrived .

So yeah... they were rouging it at the NYC encampment... especially after someone else cooked free food for them ;and someone set up a wifi zone throughout the park.

Where his point is valid is that the protesters are completely detached from what it takes to get food in their mouths and ipods in their hands. They just expect to get things they feel entitled to.



I don't know about anyone else, but I am as well. I am completely at the mercy of corporations. I rely on them for just about everything.




I see it in the public hearings I attend. We want the electicity uninterupted but don't build a power plant near my house. We want cell phone service but that tower is unsightly ,build it somewhere else.
We like out food prepackaged but are grossed out at the inherent conditions of a slaughter factory that mass produces the food we eat..... and fewer do their own hunting and field dressing ;fishing ,or even getting their fingers dirty planting and maintaining a garden.



Of course, we all want electricity but we don't want the high voltage power lines to pass over our house.

If they want to do build high voltage towers over my property then I will take the government to the highest court in the land (in this case the government owns the utility). I guess that's what people do if they feel their health and interests are threatened.

What I don't want from government is a 16th century letter explaining to me that electricity benefits the majority of citizens and I need to waver my so called rights in order to benefit the majority and thus benefiting myself at the same time.

To Keep the hypothetical going;the letter might go on to say that electricity has to be provided so there is a price everyone has to pay in terms of what you want and don't want. If you don't like high voltage power lines over your house then try generating the electricity yourself. You will soon come back to the fold and allow the government/corporation to decided the most efficient way to provide for the majority.

I would prefer a letter stating that my complaint has been taken into account and it is the belief that the utility has adhered to all the necessary rules and regulations regarding the necessary extension of power in your area. If you feel that this response is unsatisfactory for what ever reason then may we suggest you start with the government Ombudsman as the first stop in exercising your rights.

Yes, I know rules and regulations. I know my rights, so I am going to exercise them to the max. Everyone doing this will no doubt result in more rules and regulations in the long run.

Nonetheless, I still prefer 21st century social contract theory over 16 th century social contract theory. Of course I am indebted to corporations for everything. However, this doesn't mean that I should waver my rights as a sign of appreciation.

Tut

I expect my government to work for me, not the corporation. I expect my government to be vigilant against corporate greed and ROBBING me blind.

How about the wefare bums and project dwellers that are robbing us blind, committing crimes and providing NOTHING to the general welfare of the country.

They will never steal as much as a corporation does, or the fat cats who run them. At least poor criminals go to jail, rich criminals go yachting.

They will never steal as much as a corporation does, or the fat cats who run them. At least poor criminals go to jail, rich criminals go yachting.

Too late... since the 1930's... Trillions have been wasted on good-for nothing lazy welfare bums.

How about the wefare bums and project dwellers that are robbing us blind, committing crimes and providing NOTHING to the general welfare of the country.

Hi Smoothy,

Committing crimes should have legal consequences for anyone involved.

As for certain section sections of the community contributing nothing to the general welfare. What do your suggest? Because they are indebted to just about everyone; corporations, governments, taxpayers, we should suspend their rights?

Tut

Hi Smoothy,

Committing crimes should have legal consequences for anyone involved.

As for certain section sections of the community contributing nothing to the general welfare. What do your suggest? Because they are indebted to just about everyone; corporations, governments, taxpayers, we should suspend their rights?

TutYes... as part of accepting welfare.. they should lose them until they get jobs and support themselves.

That would be unconstitutional. You cannot take someone's rights because they are poor, indepted, or jobless. Or LAZY, and dirty, stupid or a slob.

That would be unconstitutional. You cannot take someones rights because they are poor, indepted, or jobless. Or LAZY, and dirty, stupid or a slob.
Gee and yet its constitutional to do this with Child Molestors that have served their sentences and Convicted Felons... yet lazy people are somehow immune.

Lazy is not a crime.

smoothy don't do a Marie Antionette, if you don't feed the masses they become revolting. I know you think they are revolting, but you allow them to keep guns, very disturbing

Hello wingers:

I KNOW you saw 60 Minutes the other night... I KNOW it pissed you off. I KNOW you want to demonstrate about it... Come on down. You'll be in good company.

excon

smoothy don't do a Marie Antionette, if you don't feed the masses they become revolting. I know you think they are revolting, but you allow them to keep guns, very disturbing

They are a tiny minority... they will find the large majority is fed up with them very soon... we have far more guns than they do. They will lose.

As moronic as they are... I think they grasp that much.

Lazy is not a crime.

Its also not an excuse... let the lazy starve. It will conserve resources for those who truly need them.

Unconstitutional is just an opinion of the court in charge.
We already restrict rights to religion ( anyone remember the Mormon wars from history, or when being part of the Church of England was an offense worthy of arrest during the revolution) Not to saw that today if my church wanted to actively support lets say Hermain Cain, we could lose our tax exempt status for doing so.

Right to bear arms, it is already taken away in many cities or states

Right to vote , that is of course controlled by the states and as noted felons have lost those rights.

Other things like welfare and food stamps are not rights, they are government programs that can be changed at a moment notice.

Not to saw that today if my church wanted to actively support lets say Hermain Cain, we could lose our tax exempt status for doing so.That's the way it should be, right?


Right to bear arms, it is already taken away in many cities or statesYou want anyone to be able to run around with fully automatic assault rifles? There are some small countries in Africa that you would LOVE!


Right to vote , that is of course controlled by the states and as noted felons have lost those rights.This is a good thing, isn't it?

Hello again:

Do ANY of my right winged friends believe that putting down a popular movement with VIOLENCE ends it? If you do, and I think you do, the evidence that it doesn't ABOUNDS in the world...

What I REALLY think you think, is that the OWS is different than all the others going on in the world... You think because OUR protestors live in nice houses, they CAN'T be as pissed?? Really?

That's where I think you're making a big mistake.

excon

What about clean food and drink?

I love good clean food and drink.

Look, I'll engage you, but you don't seem to be able to get passed who the protesters are as people... I'm simply suggesting that you're missing the bigger picture... There's MORE going on here than dirt.

excon

Hey, you're the one who said something about dirty people, I was just pointing out the health hazard the occupiers have become.

Look, as I've pointed out many times they began with the goal of zeroing in on their "one demand". What is it? If they can't give me their "one demand" there's nothing to talk about.

Hello again:

Do ANY of my right winged friends believe that putting down a popular movement with VIOLENCE ends it?? If you do, and I think you do, the evidence that it doesn't ABOUNDS in the world...

What I REALLY think you think, is that the OWS is different than all the others going on in the world... You think because OUR protestors live in nice houses, they CAN'T be as pissed??? Really?

That's where I think you're making a big mistake.

excon

All the violence I've seen on the lefty media news... has come from the Bowel Movement people.

All the violence I've seen on the lefty media news....has come from the Bowel Movement people.Hello again, smoothy:

Then you're wearing your usual right wing blinders... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/arts-post/post/occupys-84-year-old-pepper-spray-victim-is-this-the-most-iconic-image-of-the-movement/2011/11/16/gIQAzateRN_blog.html) I'm sure the cops were afraid of this 84 year old lady..

excon

Unconstitutional is just an opinion of the court in charge.
We already restrict rights to religion ( anyone remember the Mormon wars from history, or when being part of the Church of England was an offense worthy of arrest during the revolution) Not to saw that today if my church wanted to actively support lets say Hermain Cain, we could lose our tax exempt status for doing so.

My question is why would a church interested in the 1st amendment accept the tax exempt status ? Doesn't that quid pro quo mean that it becomes a state established religion ? It you want free exercise then lose the dependency on the state largess.

Hello wingers:

I KNOW you saw 60 Minutes the other night... I KNOW it pissed you off. I KNOW you wanna demonstrate about it... Come on down. You'll be in good company.

excon

Yes and I've known that Madame Mimi is a fraud and an insider trading crook for a long time.
As I've said ;the outrage should be focused on Washington . Nothing I've seen from this confused movement changes my opinion.

They need leadership ;end these silly mass votes with handsignals.. Concentatrate on a focused doable goal ;and mobilize from where they can be effective... at the ballot box... just like they did in 2008 (yes this is the hopey changey Obama army out on the streets) .

Hello again, smoothy:

Then you're wearing your usual right wing blinders... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/arts-post/post/occupys-84-year-old-pepper-spray-victim-is-this-the-most-iconic-image-of-the-movement/2011/11/16/gIQAzateRN_blog.html) I'm sure the cops were afraid of this 84 year old lady..

excon

Gee... when CBS news... ground zero for Rathergate and Bush bashing by the left, shows recorded video of the Bowel Movement and the murders rapes and other crimes... you want me to ignore it because its not really happening?

Are you trying to say they have had an awakening and sudenly became a Righty news source over night?

yes and I've known that Madame Mimi is a fraud and an insider trading crook for a long time.Hello again, tom:

Hmmm, hmmm, umph... I THOUGHT you would have mentioned that the corruption is across the board... No, huh? That's bad, tom...

excon

I said all along Washinton is the problem . What more do you want ? Pelosi's is the only one in their report that was blatant insider trading . Martha Stewart went to jail for less.
It's a given that Congress normally exempts itself from the legislation it passes.

Yesterday across the nation hundreds of OWS protesters got arrested for their ahem civil disobedience.
Now many of these "kids" ,when they get their act together and join the real world, will be looking for employment in the corporate world .
I just wonder how their arrest record and the nature of the arrest will affect their future prospects. They can't all go to Woodstock to sell tye died hemp shirts .

I think they would have joined the real world by now... if given an opportunity.

Past protestors seem to have done all right after they retired from protesting their causes, and I suspect so will these, but I think the true challenge for them is will they evolve into a smarter bunch.

I think they will.

Hello again, tom:

If you focus on their clothes instead of what they're pissed off about, you're going to MISS something.. But, I suspect it's something you WANT to miss or you wouldn't be wearing the required right wing blinders.

That's all right.. They don't need your permission OR agreement, not that they'd get it anyway. Get ready for the ride of your life. Things is going to BE different. The world is about to shift..

excon

look, as i've pointed out many times they began with the goal of zeroing in on their "one demand". What is it? If they can't give me their "one demand" there's nothing to talk about.

38100

These clowns have already overplayed their hand.
Even Elizabeth Warren, who first endorsed the protestors, has refused to sign an “Occupy Harvard ” statement. She's clearly worried that her previous endorsement will hurt her chances of winning against Scott Brown.
Elizabeth Warren won’t sign off on Occupy Harvard - BostonHerald.com (http://bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view.bg?articleid=1381558)
It's time for every Republic to call out the Dems and force them to go public and on the record with their support of this movement.

Hello again, tom:

Yeah, they called me names too.. But WE changed the world. Sit back and watch it happen again..

excon

Your nostalgia is not really relevant to this . Even if I give the anti-Vietnam war credit for getting us out of that conflict ,it was hardly world changing .
But at least you had a clear unambiguous simple message.

This crowd doesn't know what it wants . It's a tantrum/rage against the machine that is getting old as they interfere with the rights of others (besides the so called 1% that are largely unaffected by this street theater )to conduct their daily affairs.

What the heck... just for you...


Politicians sit yourselves down, there's nothing for you here
Won't you please come to Chicago for a ride
Don't ask Jack to help you 'cause he'll turn the other ear
Won't you please come to Chicago or else join the other side

We can change the world rearrange the world
It's dying - if you believe in justice
Dying - and if you believe in freedom
Dying - let a man live his own life
Dying - rules and regulations, who needs them

Seems Warren Buffet ain't the only guy calling for an end to tax cuts, and corporate welfare to end.

Patriotic Millionaires For Fiscal Strength (http://patrioticmillionaires.org/)

'Patriotic Millionaires' Beg Supercommittee for Higher Taxes - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/patriotic-millionaires-beg-supercommittee-higher-taxes-185620525.html)

Patriotic Millionaires To Grover Norquist: 'Move To Somalia' - The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/11/17/patriotic-millionaires-grover-norquist-somalia_n_1098473.html)

The Self-Expropriation of the Patriotic Millionaires (http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/the-self-expropriation-of-the-patriotic-millionaires/)

'Patriotic Millionaires' Lobby Congress for Higher Taxes on Rich | PBS NewsHour | Nov. 16, 2011 | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec11/millionaires_11-16.html)


GARRETT GRUENER: Well, that's something I can speak to directly.

I have built up a number of companies myself, and I have been a venture capitalist now for almost 20 years. So I have been involved in the creation of lots of high-technology companies, companies in life sciences, in software and hardware, now in clean tech. And I'm currently running a company that's built on nanotechnology.

And I can say, for myself, that not a single one of those investments, not one was ever impacted by marginal tax rates. I invested under the Clinton rates. I invested under the Bush rates. I invested under the rates before that. And, by the way, in history, the rates were much higher than they are today.

I don't believe it, they sound too much like Excon, you know that crazy left wing guy who talks crazy? Now unlike him, or those goofy unwashed lazy rich kids running through the street like idiots, hollering and screaming instead of washing dishes, we have some real clean cut types, who are rich, and there are a bunch of 'em.

Will the right listen? I doubt it, they didn't bother to show up to get the story, but the progressive in CONGRESS did.

Past protestors seem to have done all right after they retired from protesting their causes, and I suspect so will these

Sure, just take a page from the William Ayers playbook.


but I think the true challenge for them is will they evolve into a smarter bunch.

Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Past protestors seem to have done all right after they retired from protesting their causes, and I suspect so will these

Sure, just take a page from the William Ayers playbook.

Or Jerry Rubin...

In the 1980s, he embarked on a debating tour with Abbie Hoffman titled "Yippie versus Yuppie." Rubin's argument in the debates was that activism was hard work and that the abuse of drugs, sex, and private property had made the counter-culture "a scary society in itself." He maintained that "wealth creation is the real American revolution.
Jerry Rubin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Rubin)

Sure, just take a page from the William Ayers playbook.Hello again, Steve:

Or Martin Luther King, Jr. or Gandhi perhaps. Even Nelson Mandela.

excon

Hello again, wingers:

So, you REALLY don't want to know why they're there? I don't think you do. You don't want to engage in anything other than hurling insults...

Did we do that when the Tea Party emerged?? If we did, did you like it?

excon

Hello again, wingers:

So, you REALLY don't wanna know why they're there? I don't think you do. You don't want to engage in anything other than hurling insults...

Did we do that when the Tea Party emerged??? If we did, did you like it?

excon

Dude, I've said 7 times previously I'm waiting for their "one demand." Lots of other people have claimed to know their one demand but as far as I can tell the actual occupiers have still not listed their demand. When they tell me what that "one demand" is we can talk about it.

Meanwhile, the public is starting to get pretty fed up with them. And any group of people that interferes with the rights of others, including children going to daycare, creates a health hazard, and resorts to all manner of criminal activity (http://www.verumserum.com/?p=33490) deserves every insult hurled their way.

When they tell me what that "one demand" is we can talk about it. Hello again, Steve:

I'm not buying it. Your expectations are just a tad high. Until you hear ONE VOICE from 100's of 1,000's of pissed off people, you ain't going to talk?? That's your principled position?? Really? So, I should ignore everything you say until I hear ALL right wingers saying it?? Really?

excon

According to Wikipedia, the October 27, 2011, issue of Bloomberg Businessweek states that protesters want more and better jobs, more equal distribution of income, bank reform, and a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics.

All I can say is that you better keep listening, before you dismiss and call names. Is that all you see is the bad side of this movement, or judge the not so perfect by the worst.

Is that really all you see, or all you want to see? Not very open minded. We can have a conversation now if you were.

According to Wikipedia, the October 27, 2011, issue of Bloomberg Businessweek states that protesters want more and better jobs, more equal distribution of income, bank reform, and a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics.Hello WG:

Bloomberg is a pansy liberal. Steve wants to hear 100,000 people chant the SAME THING, or he ain't buying it.

excon

No, I just don't get why so many people are defending these thugs. I promise you if the Tea Party rallies had led to a quarter of the crime, hazards and disruption of other people's lives that the occupiers are guilty of you all would be screaming for their heads.

These people started as lawbreakers from day one and I have no respect for anyone that has no respect for the law and the rights and property of others.

And here I thought you were all your rights end where my nose begins people...

To be fair the tea party protests were 1/1000 of these. Plus there were quite organized.

Speaking of Obama buddy ,the mad bomber ,Bill Ayers...

He is speaking to the Chi-town Occupiers about non-violent protest (I kid you not)

Controversial Professor Bill Ayers Speaks With Occupy Chicago Protesters | NBC Chicago (http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/politics/134045388.html)

Of course ;in a NY Slimes article on 9-11-01 ,he stated he hadn't done enough bombing .

No, I just don't get why so many people are defending these thugs.Hello again, Steve:

I've TRIED to tell you. But, you don't want to listen. I'll try again... 50 years ago, some people gathered together on a campus and protested. They TOO were called thugs and dirtbags by people from YOUR side of the street. And, what was said about them was probably true in the micro sense. But, in the macro sense, it was a POWERFUL movement that changed the world.

So, while I decry dirt, and rape and all the things that happen when people live together in close quarters, I look BEYOND that, and you don't. You don't even think there IS a beyond, and I believe there's a GREAT beyond.

Now, would it have been better if the world changed because we asked it to?? Sure...

excon

Ex, I cannot look past people that have no respect for the law, my rights and my property. If they want to talk, great, but that ain't talkin' - that's just plain thuggish, offensive, illegal, violent behavior.

Hello again, Steve:

I've TRIED to tell you. But, you don't wanna listen. I'll try again... 50 years ago, some people gathered together on a campus and protested. They TOO were called thugs and dirtbags by people from YOUR side of the street. And, what was said about them was probably true in the micro sense. But, in the macro sense, it was a POWERFUL movement that changed the world.

So, while I decry dirt, and rape and all the things that happen when people live together in close quarters, I look BEYOND that, and you don't. You don't even think there IS a beyond, and I believe there's a GREAT beyond.

Now, would it have been better if the world changed because we asked it to??? Sure......

exconAnd today most of them have become "BIG BROTHER" the very thing they hated and feared the most back then... what a change.

Dude, I've said 7 times previously I'm waiting for their "one demand." Lots of other people have claimed to know their one demand but as far as I can tell the actual occupiers have still not listed their demand. When they tell me what that "one demand" is we can talk about it.


Hi Speech,

Why do THEY have to know? Can't someone else know,' the one demand'. After all, they can use technology to keep in touch with the information society.

Tut

Unless there is some coherent message behind this street theater then it appears to be the logical conclusion to the 'flash mob fad'.

For those who compare this to the Vietnam ,Civil Rights ,or the end of the Brit empire in the Indian subcontinent ,the comparison begins and ends with the protest. I liken OWS more like wolves howling at the moon or dogs chasing trucks . Why they do it ? They don't know ;and they certainly couldn't tell you what they'd do if they caught the truck. Those speaking for them on this board are projecting their own desires .

So I do the same.. Most of the perceived inequalities are the result of government interference ;and that is where their ire should be directed .

These are not stupid people . Here in NY one of them managed to display a series of sophisticated "bat signal" like projections on the Verizon building .
Occupy Wall Street 99% Spotlight Signal #N17 #OWS #OccupyEverything - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxG4g62rnd8&feature=player_embedded#)!

My guess is that they will do very well in the real world once they tire of this 'flash in the pan' moment .

Hello again, tom:

Frankly, there IS a coherent message... You just don't like it.

excon

I'm starting my own flash movement . I strongly object to my tax dollars being used by the Dem crony socialists to grease the states and municipalites with large slush funds to hire back laid-off public union workers, who then go out and vote Democratic en bloc in the next election, and whose union dues go directly to buy Democratic votes.
Then when the jobs of non-public workers are considered;the President "defers" a decision that delays the hiring of at least 20,000 blue collar workers... because he has this ideological notion that they'd serve the country better constructing solar farms.

In Youngstown Ohio ,all but a ghost town ,there is now a 2nd steel mill factory under construction to build the equipment necessary to perform the fracking of shale to extract natural gas . That's JOBS ,JOBS ,JOBS!! (btw Ohio will likely be the key swing state in 2012 ) .

So I do the same .. Most of the perceived inequalities are the result of government interference ;and that is where their ire should be directed .



What! You are not suggesting that politicians abandon their real constituency. Are you?

Tut

I'm starting my own flash movement . Hello again, tom:

It's the American way.

But, if somebody JOINS you, I'm probably not going to get a CLEAR CUT MESSAGE about WHY you're protesting.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

I've TRIED to tell you. But, you don't wanna listen. I'll try again... 50 years ago, some people gathered together on a campus and protested. They TOO were called thugs and dirtbags by people from YOUR side of the street. And, what was said about them was probably true in the micro sense. But, in the macro sense, it was a POWERFUL movement that changed the world.

So, while I decry dirt, and rape and all the things that happen when people live together in close quarters, I look BEYOND that, and you don't. You don't even think there IS a beyond, and I believe there's a GREAT beyond.

Now, would it have been better if the world changed because we asked it to??? Sure......

excon


There is no comparison to those that stood up 50 years ago. I find it almost insulting that people keep bringing it up. The ones today are doing what they are doing because they are spoiled. 50 years ago they did it because people were being shipped off to be killed in a war that wasn't a war. They had a united goal. This generation of hippies 2.0 is being spoon fed into a movement. The media has been proven to be part of the storyline. Just to make them out to be something that they are not. It sickens me that there are professional protestors that are in the ranks and in great numbers who's only job is to spew fourtha spoon fed agenda. When you combine that with how they are destroying the very business plans of mom and pops that are struggling just the same its insane. 50 years ago those that wanted the life of a commune could have it. And they worked the land and had their lifestyle. What OWS wants is to be told how superior they are and to be given everything. Just like it had been all their lives growing up.

"Occupy Wall Street Crowd Blind to Benefits of Capitalism" (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2809092/posts)

There is no comparison to those that stood up 50 years ago. I find it almost insulting that people keep bringing it up. The ones today are doing what they are doing because they are spoiled. Hello dad:

Don't be insulted... I think they're the same. It's a popular uprising of the people because they're PISSED OFF. You say they were honorable 50 years ago, but lots of 'em just wanted to get laid.. I say the OWS'rs are honorable even IF lots of 'em are spoiled.

Like ALL of the right wing, you look at the PEOPLE instead of what they're PISSED OFF at... Look.. I was THERE 50 years ago.. NOBODY thought we were honorable then, except us... They called us spoiled and dirty and anarchists... And, BOY did they HATE that we wanted to stop the war.

But, I will delay my ultimate judgment until this works out. I say they'll change the world.. It's only because I HOPE they will. Ain't no media telling me to say that. But, if they fizzle, then they did, and all the garbage was a waste of time...

excon

Hello dad:

Don't be insulted... I think they're the same. It's a popular uprising of the people because they're PISSED OFF. You say they were honorable 50 years ago, but lots of 'em just wanted to get laid.. I say the OWS'rs are honorable even IF lots of 'em are spoiled.

Like ALL of the right wing, you look at the PEOPLE instead of what they're PISSED OFF at... Look.. I was THERE 50 years ago.. NOBODY thought we were honorable then, except us... They called us spoiled and dirty and anarchists... And, BOY did they HATE that we wanted to stop the war.

But, I will delay my ultimate judgment until this works out. I say they'll change the world.. It's only because I HOPE they will. Ain't no media telling me to say that. But, if they fizzle, then they did, and all the garbage was a waste of time...

excon

My take on it is that there was a separation between the protests and the movement. The movement was about free love and peace and being able to commune free from mans (unatural) law. That is a clear separation from the protests that took place on campuses and in the streets where there was a common goal and a focus. Many of that era lived by what they preached. Much of their message was delivered by the music that represented the movement. Maybe Im just being wistful in my thinking but back then the cause had reasons for action where today it is directed by a media based environment and pushed through the very corridores they are protesting against. It doesn't make sense to me.

It doesnt make sense to me.Hello again, dad:

I agree - for the SHORT term..

I don't recall that the antiwar movement was cohesive from the start. In fact, it started as a free speech movement and grew into an antiwar movement.. The songs came AFTER the movement had legs..

All I'm saying, is this is 2 months old. It's BRAND NEW. It's too premature to identify it as a bunch of hooligans, or serious people. I'm willing to give it a chance.

excon

Hello again, dad:

I agree - for the SHORT term..

I don't recall that the antiwar movement was cohesive from the start. In fact, it started as a free speech movement and grew into an antiwar movement.. The songs came AFTER the movement had legs..

All I'm saying, is this is 2 months old. It's BRAND NEW. It's too premature to identify it as a bunch of hooligans, or serious people. I'm willing to give it a chance.

excon

Me too. I have been watching or listening to the occupy live channel for awhile and following it from the inside through that media. That is how I have gained my understanding so far. It's a window into their world.


In case you missed this link I posted before.

http://occupyparty.org/

Incase you missed this link I posted before.

The Occupy PartyHi dad:

No, I haven't seen it.. I've been listening to Steve telling me they had NO message.. They're much further along than I thought.. I didn't find the rapists page, though, or Bill Ayers?

Did you see their projection last night??? It was REALLY COOL! (http://blogs.artinfo.com/artintheair/2011/11/18/the-art-group-behind-last-nights-ows-light-projection/)

excon

I just saw it in your link. What still gets to me is that they are still relying on coporate to do things for them (Max Nova and JR Skola from the art production company Dawn of Man. ) not like in the 60's where it was mostly home grown and a boycott was a boycott.

What still gets to me is that they are still relying on coporate to do things for them - not like in the 60's where it was mostly home grown and a boycott was a boycott.Hello again, dad:

That's kind of like blaming Al Gore for flying in his jet. Steve does that regularly. Any movement needs office space, and telephones. They're going to need to pay wages and taxes, and maybe even hire consultants.. In short, they need to LOOK pretty corporate...

But, that doesn't mean they need to suck the public teat like other corporations do..

I don't think flying in his plane or looking corporate detracts from EITHER of the two messages... One can concentrate on the messenger, or the message. I know what I'm doing.

excon

Hello again, dad:
One can concentrate on the messenger, or the message. I know what I'm doing.

excon

Me too, that's why I am patiently listening. AND WATCHING, I find reactions just as interesting as what they are reacting to.

The songs came AFTER the movement had legs..

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Bob Dylan 1964

Me too, thats why I am patiently listening. AND WATCHING, I find reactions just as interesting as what they are reacting to.

Watching the Bowel Movement having their Poo in the Park events is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Watching the Bowel Movement having their Poo in the Park events is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.Hello again, smoothy:

Listening to you is like setting my hair on fire.

excon

Watching the Bowel Movement having their Poo in the Park events is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

So why are you still watching? Change the channel, that's what a remote is for. :D

"Occupy Wall Street Crowd Blind to Benefits of Capitalism" (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2809092/posts)



'Occupy Wall Street Blind to Capitalism'

This link discusses capitalism in terms of multinationals or very large corporations, not small business interests of Mums and Dads.

Some or perhaps many OWS protestors show a lack of understanding of how capitalism works. However, what some people do understand is that Multinationals have become so large and so powerful they have the money and resources to make politicians their constituency. The have the money, power and legal resources to challenge state and local laws and regulations if they see them as being a hindrance to their goals.

In a previous post I rejected the Whittle argument that requires protestors to go home because corporations have given them iphones, computers, petrol of their cars, etc, etc. Whittle says protests should go home and be grateful for corporations.

Whittle also suggest that protestors are spoilt and lazy while corporations are prepared to do the dirty work. The only conclusion we can draw is for the protestors to go home and let corporations do what they do best.Yes, corporations do these things very well. The problem is they do other things too well.

This link is also putting forward a similar, 'where would you be without corporations type of argument?' However, the author takes a slightly different approach. He claims that the protestors want to dismantle capitalism in favour of some type of socialist system. The principle of bivalence (one or the other) doesn't have to apply here.

Their one demand should be to rein in the corporate Leviathan. This doesn't mean destroy it. Only a fool would want that.

Tut

This link is also putting forward a similar, 'where would you be without corporations type of argument?' However, the author takes a slightly different approach. He claims that the protestors want to dismantle capitalism in favour of some type of socialist system. The principle of bivalence (one or the other) doesn't have to apply here.

Their one demand should be to rein in the corporate Leviathan. This doesn't mean destroy it. Only a fool would want that.

Tut

the idea that corporatisation is somehow a good thing is flawed. It doesn't matter what you give power to, that power will be usurped because of the type of individual that rises to the top. Not a person who has to face the judgement of an electorate but a person who like to rule.

we need to remove opportunism from the equation, the idea that I can make a buck at the expense of someoneelse and that is OK. This is evident in the hedge funds and traders who manipulate markets

Boundaries would work for me. Strong boundaries. I don't want companies, or governments telling me what to do. I want options, and opportunities.

Hello:

DISGUSTING... Did I say DISGUSTING?? Let me say it again, the cops are DISGUSTING...

UC Davis police defend use of pepper spray on Occupy protesters - latimes.com (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/uc-davis-police-defend-use-of-pepper-spray-on-protesters.html)

excon

Yes ,it is unacceptable .

Open Letter to Chancellor Linda P.B. Katehi | UCDavis Bicycle Barricade (http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/open-letter-to-chancellor-linda-p-b-katehi/)

Hello again, tom:

Switching sides? I KNEW you'd come around.

excon

Hello:

DISGUSTING... Did I say DISGUSTING???? Lemme say it again, the cops are DISGUSTING...

UC Davis police defend use of pepper spray on Occupy protesters - latimes.com (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/uc-davis-police-defend-use-of-pepper-spray-on-protesters.html)

excon

If they were doing that on my property I would have urinated on them all.

If they were doing that on my property I would have urinated on them all.Hello again, smoothy:

You CALL yourself a Constitution loving American, but you haven't a clue about what it means... You DO represent the low information FOX viewer quite well, though.

excon

That video was ugly. There needs to be some heads rolling for that.

That was ugly.Hello again, Steve:

What? Me calling him out, or him saying he'd pi$$ on some kids?

excon

See my edit.

Hello again, smoothy:

You CALL yourself a Constitution loving American, but you haven't a clue about what it means... You DO represent the low information FOX viewer quite well, though.

excon

The don't have a right to "occupy" property they don't own... none of them have any "right" to occupy property I own.

If they didn't that on MY property... it would have gotten a lot uglier than that before I ran them off. Let them try and "occupy" my house... there are going to be a lot of people shot and killed. Like every single one that doesn't get out my front or back door before I got to them. Or every single one that even looks to be threatening me outside on my property.

They don't have the "right" to commit the massive numbers of crimes they have been. The don't have the right to do 99.99% if what they think they do.

They all have forgotten their rights end where the rights of others begin.

They all have forgotten their rights end where the rights of others begin.Hello again, smoothy:

They weren't in your house.. They were on PUBLIC property.

I'm not going to waste time in giving you, yet again, another lesson on the Constitution... Suffice, to say, you haven't a clue...

I have NO idea what kind of country YOU'D like to live in, but keep me as far away from it as possible...

excon

Smoothy ,the pepper spray was excess force which makes it brutality that crosses the line .

I don't have a problem with evicting the protesters .But the use of the pepper spray was ham handed . That should be used if and when it becomes a violent confrontation by the protesters.
In NYC a protester slashed a cops hand . He's the one who needed a face full of pepper .

Look ;there has been more than one idiot from the left who's said that this movement needs a Kent State moment. I'm not enthusiastic about giving it to them.

They weren't in your house.. They were on PUBLIC property
No they weren't . They were on the university property and the University had the right to evict. The campus police went too far .That's all.

And again, see my edit (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/occupiers-1-percent-608878-38.html#post2953459). Those kids didn't deserve that.

No they weren't . They were on the university property and the University had the right to evict. Hello again, tom:

Yes they were.. They were on the campus of the University of California. It's an institution owned by the citizens of the state of California.. You can't get more public than that.

excon

Really ? I kind of doubt that anyone has the right to gather on the campus . It is University property regardless if it is a state owned operation.

AND... these students were in violation of the University code of conduct.


Violation 102.16: Failure to Comply
Failure to identify oneself to, or comply with the directions of, a University official or other public official acting in the performance of his or her duties while on University property or at official University functions; or resisting or obstructing such University or other public officials in the performance of or the attempt to perform their duties.

Violation 102.26: Camping or Lodging
Camping or lodging on University property other than in authorized facilities.
http://extension.berkeley.edu/info/studentconduct.pdf

Hello again, tom:

Let me see... You got the Constitution... and you got the University Code of Conduct...

Uhhhh, the Constitution wins...

excon

They had every right to evict them, but not spray them, and all the dumb university cop had to do was call a "real" cop, and had them arrested.

The university got carried away, and for that they should pay consequences. The protestors KNEW they were going to jail, so take 'em, but not spray 'em with pepper spray.

What's amazing is that we all agree on that part. :eek:

Whats amazing is that we all agree on that part. :eek:Hello tal:

Uhh, not all of us..

excon

Which part is that?

Smoothy.

They had every right to evict them, but not spray them, and all the dumb university cop had to do was call a "real" cop, and had them arrested.

The university got carried away, and for that they should pay consequences. The protestors KNEW they were going to jail, so take 'em, but not spray 'em with pepper spray.

Whats amazing is that we all agree on that part. :eek:

I don't exactly think it was wrong if it actually went down as I had heard. The student were given warning over a bullhorn and were warned 2 times. Do you think they should have been tazzed instead? Those are the levels of police aggression that are employed today. Don't believe me. Go try something with your local cop and see how long it takes before things escalate. To be fair I also haven't seen video of the claimed forcing of mouths being opened and pepper spay being shot directly into the mouth. Is it too far? Maybe or then again maybe not. When breaking laws your taking your chances. When showing resistance those chances and likelyhoods increase exponentionaly. Unless it was ordered otherwise then they had no choice to escalate their responses to the situation. What choices were they given besides allowing it to continue?

Cuff 'em, load 'em up, and book 'em. One at a time. Just me though, I would have left them alone, and there would have been no confrontation.

Been in a sit in or two back in the day. "Hell no, we won't go!". I mean geeez, how much suffering can you ignore? Maybe your life is great, but clearly not everyone's life is great, and for many, its down right lousy.

We can do better, and should. Go ahead, blame the messengers.

Yeah, they all had their little zip tie handcuffs on their belts, wouldn't take a lot to cuff a peaceful protester and load them up.

Or the university could have ignored them, unless there was UNpeaceful things going on.

I'm old school, if you have a bug in your A$$ then you have a right to say it. I don't have the right to be mad, and break your windows out.

Well apparently they weren't too happy with them setting up a tent city, and who can blame them after all the lice outbreaks, lung diseases and other assorted nastiness (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064174/Occupy-London-Children-living-squalor-St-Pauls-protest-camp.html) from these protests?

What choices were they given besides allowing it to continue?Hello dad:

What to continue?? A Constitutional peaceful protest?? They could have walked away.

excon

They will adjust. Go home, come back rested, refreshed, and cleaned up, louder, and more determined.

Hello dad:

What to continue??? A Constitutional peaceful protest??? They could have walked away.

excon

The tents being up and the protesters surrounding the tents. In the article that was posted it did say they were resisting arrest.

What did they think was going to happen ? I saw this in San Fran the other night during their protest and they got up one by one as they were told and went with the arrest. Nobody got hurt and nothing got destroyed.

Hello dad:

What to continue??? A Constitutional peaceful protest??? They could have walked away.

There is no constitutional right to occupy. Free speech is still subject to time, place and manner restrictions. Tents are shelter, not speech.

Tents are shelter, not speech.Hello again, Steve:

We're talking about the right to assemble. It's in the same amendment. That takes shelter. You didn't know about the right to assemble?? Well, no wonder you're on their case.. This changes everything.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

We're talking about the right to assemble. It's in the same amendment. That takes shelter. You didn't know about the right to assemble???? Well, no wonder you're on their case.. This changes everything.

excon

A little refresher along with some Supreme Court decisions.

Right To Assemble (Informational Paper) (http://learningtogive.org/papers/paper57.html)

Ex you have the right to assemble, not squat. The problem with protest is that they don't take into account other people's right's. A public park is for all people not just protesters, so there is a point when protesters need to move on and that point is certainly when they become a public health risk and the welfare provision overrides "promote the general Welfare," It is about the context in which you do things that determine your right to do it, this appears to be missed.

These people are not assembling in order to exercise their right of petition they are are assembling in order to conduct some form of bouycott against specific persons or institutions and therefore whether they are assembling peacefully has to be questioned.

There is no right to assemble on private property and even in public it is frequently subject to permits . There is a right to assemble ,protest . There is NO right to to take up residence in public parks or public places or disrupt there .

What they were practicing was civil disobedience ,not freedom of assembly. Civil disobedience may be noble and even at times the moral thing to do as Henry David Thoreau wrote . But those who practice it should be prepared to suffer the consequences.

There is also a consequence for not listening when one airs their grievances. When you ignore or dismiss anyone, they tend to get louder, and more uncooperative. Don't look like they are going away any time soon.

There is also a consequence for not listening when one airs their grievances. When you ignore or dismiss anyone, they tend to get louder, and more uncooperative.
Psssst, it starts during infancy.

There is no right to assemble on private property and even in public it is frequently subject to permits . Hello again,

There are some who think city laws requiring permits, and zoning laws, and school rules, and the like, all trump the Constitution... Then there are the people who UNDERSTAND the Constitution and what the founders had in mind. That would be me.

The First Amendment is the first amendment, for a reason. I can figure out why they wrote it first... Can you?

excon

As you know ,no rights are absolute. Bloomy waited most of a day waiting for the court system to decide on his decision to clear Zuccotti park.
No doubt the protesters at UC Davis will challenge the decision in court ;and I have my suspicions that the actions of the campus cop exceeded legal bounds and he will likely face legal problems over his over-zealousness.

I see nothing unconstitutional on the requiring of permits or curfews .

I see nothing unconstitutional on the requiring of permits or curfews .Hello again, tom:

Of course you don't. You also see nothing unconstitutional about the NSA reading our email and listening to our phone calls. Plus, you see nothing unconstitutional about denying Muslims the right to construct a mosque where ever they choose..

So, from MY point of view, you're going to need a better argument than, YOU see nothing unconstitutional about it.

excon

You distort my position on the other issues you cite ,so it doesn't surprise me you distort this one.

Hello again,


The First Amendment is the first amendment, for a reason. I can figure out why they wrote it first... Can you??

excon

The first amendment might be the first amendment but it doesn't override the original Constitution it just makes clear something's that were left unsaid and you really do need to stop taking snippets from it and reading it out of context. Other amendments later add more but the whole document must be considered as a whole. When amendments were added it is clear that whatever was happening had made it obvious that a certain aspect hadn't been dealt with adequately.

The right of assembly is clearly presented with a purpose to petition government to redress grievences, not for the purpose of conducting illegal acts or contributing to civil disorder or targeting individuals

The right of assembly is clearly presented with a purpose to petition government to redress grievences, not for the purpose of conducting illegal acts or contributing to civil disorder or targetting individualsHello again, clete:

That's the right wing view of them... Others hold a different view. Civil disobedience is the HIGHEST form of patriotism..

excon

Hello again, clete:

That's the right wing view of them... Others hold a different view. Civil disobedience is the HIGHEST form of patriotism..

excon

Do we need to ask Rosa Parks about this one ?

Hello again, clete:

That's the right wing view of them... Others hold a different view. Civil disobedience is the HIGHEST form of patriotism..

excon

Patriotism, is that what you think OWS exhibits? Personally I think is is an exhibition of Yoboism. Last time I looked patriotism was having concern for your country, not trashing it.

Where I come from Ex we have a saying; two wrongs don't make a right, and that means the end doesn't justify the means

They are not wrong for expressing themselves. And we are seeing them growing and learning, despite the obstacles that have been placed in their way by establishment, and that's in the best tradition of the American spirit. Scraggly, and disorganized as some may think, like most early movements are, if they continue to voice their displeasure, they will eventually be heard, and taken seriously. That takes time.

Just think what they can do after they shave, shower, and get haircuts, and register to vote, and actually vote! Ya think they are going to vote for Romney, Cain, Perry, or Bachmann?? I don't, hehehe, and they sure ain't going to get behind the Newtster.

So I guess I can see the right wanting them to just go away. I don't see that happening either. So at the risk of dating myself, Right on, brothers, right on. Does the heart good to see Americans that don't feel we should just roll over and let the Oligarchs have their way with us.

Just think what they can do after they shave, shower, and get haircuts, and register to vote, and actually vote!

They did vote in 2008... They are the Obamazombies

They did vote in 2008 ...They are the ObamazombiesHow do you figure that? They aren't professing any political affiliation.

Yeah they packed the halls when the President made his campaign appearances... Now they are 4 years older and out of school and hopey changy has been replaced with reality ,a reality they have not come to grips with because they still believe that piece of credential they purchased from the liberal arts schools entitles them to high pay entry level jobs where they won't get their fingers dirty .

Tom are your saying your american dream has gone sour?

Hopey changy platitudes have.
The American dream is alive and well for those who realize it has to be earned.

yeah they packed the halls when the President made his campaign appearances ....
Weren't the halls packed for McCain's campaign appearances too? That's no proof that the people are of any political affiliation; it seems to be a mix of ages and political spectrums.

The American dream is alive and well for those who realize it has to be earned.So what bad decisions did you make not to be in the 1%?

You see... that is NOT the American dream. It is not the guarantee of happiness or wealth . It is in the promise of the pursuit of it.


The American dream, that has lured tens of millions of all nations to our shores in the past century has not been a dream of merely material plenty, though that has doubtlessly counted heavily. It has been much more than that. It has been a dream of being able to grow to fullest development as man and woman, unhampered by the barriers which had slowly been erected in the older civilizations, unrepressed by social orders which had developed for the benefit of classes rather than for the simple human being of any and every class.
James Truslow Adams


It is far more than the collection of material wealth.

you see ...that is NOT the American dream. It is not the guarantee of happiness or wealth . It is in the promise of the persuit of it.


James Truslow Adams


It is far more than the collection of material wealth.Then the american dream has indeed gone by the wayside since it's obvious to all that americans are overly concerned with appearing wealthy at the expense of other pursuits.

BLACK FRIDAY FOR ALL!

Perhaps that is indeed the problem... unrealistic expectations...

Then the american dream has indeed gone by the wayside since it's obvious to all that americans are overly concerned with appearing wealthy at the expense of other pursuits.

BLACK FRIDAY FOR ALL!

I drive a 1986 4Runner. That really makes me appear wealthy.

I guess you really didn't work hard enough.

I guess you really didn't work hard enough.

Being wealthy was never a goal of mine, there are more important things than money. Kind of goes against your point I know but hey, I'm far from alone in that.

Hello again:

Is this the thread where I said if the Republicans get control, they'll take us back to the 19th Century? Well, I can find it, so I'm going to talk about that again...

If you don't believe the righty's will actually DO that, you should read that President Gingrich will ELIMINATE child labor laws. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/gingrich-calls-child-labor-laws-truly-stupid/2011/11/21/gIQAFYKHiN_blog.html)

Really, he said that...

excon

I think what he's talking about is a terrific idea. Yeah, I really said that.

Hello again:

Is this the thread where I said if the Republicans get control, they'll take us back to the 19th Century? Well, I can find it, so I'm going to talk about that again...

If you don't believe the righty's will actually DO that, you should read that President Gingrich will ELIMINATE child labor laws. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/gingrich-calls-child-labor-laws-truly-stupid/2011/11/21/gIQAFYKHiN_blog.html)

Really, he said that...

Excon
Holy crap this guy cannot take a stance:


In an interview with my colleague, Amy Gardner, Gingrich said that he is not advocating revamping child labor laws, he simply wants to empower young people with a work ethic they need to succeed.
Then later

GOP presidential hopeful Newt Gingrich called child labor laws “truly stupid”

Hahahaha, what a politician.

Back to the occupation for a moment, the ACLU has jumped in (http://www.startribune.com/local/west/134235833.html) for the Minneapolis occupiers.


The American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota sued Hennepin County on Monday on behalf of OccupyMPLS, the protest group camping out on the Government Center Plaza in downtown Minneapolis in defiance of county rules.

The ACLU suit contends that those rules, which forbid tents and electricity, and "certain unwritten procedures enforced by the county" violate the demonstrators' free speech rights.

Members of OccupyMPLS have been staying on the Hennepin County Government Center plaza night and day since Oct. 7 "to express their frustration with the growing economic and political inequities in this country," according to a news release from the ACLU-MN.

Carolyn Marinan, director of Hennepin County's public affairs department, said the county was expecting the suit.

"We're responding, and it would not be prudent or appropriate to say anything ahead of any legal proceedings," she said.

The suit asks that new rules restricting the use of chalk, electricity and tents be declared unconstitutional. The plaintiffs are also seeking an injunction against the rules, and they want the county to provide electricity for the protesters. It also asks that officials stop giving trespass notices to protesters who build temporary shelters or use chalk to express their views.

The county has said the plaza is not designed for long-term occupation and that the restrictions adopted earlier this month are needed because of health and safety concerns and increased security costs.

OK, so they may have a bit of a point on establishing new new rules in response to the occupation, but what gives them the right to "occupy" public property and block others from being able to use the property? That, and free electricity. Really? Free electricity is now a right?

Holy crap this guy cannot take a stance:


then later


hahahaha, what a politician.

You must be the only one in on the joke because calling them stupid is not the same as advocating a makeover. I'm sure the laws can be tweaked without a radical transformation.

but what gives them the right to "occupy" public property and block others from being able to use the property?Hello again, Steve:

May I refer you once again, to that wonderful document that you righty's PROFESS to be in love with... The First Amendment gives the people the right to assemble. The Constitution doesn't spell out the details.. That's left to locals. But, the details CANNOT interfere with the peoples RIGHTS. That's just so.

I know you think laws against spitting can and should be invoked to get rid of protesters... Ok, OK, I know you don't.. But, I bring that up to show you that piddly little city laws or school rules AIMED at, or USED to disrupt a peaceful Constitutionally protected protest are NOT legal. That's just so.

excon

I'm sure the laws can be tweaked without a radical transformation.
I'm quoting him, did you miss this part?

Gingrich said that he is not advocating revamping child labor laws

But, I bring that up to show you that piddly little city laws or school rules AIMED at, or USED to disrupt a peaceful Constitutionally protected protest are NOT legal. That's just so.

Excon


Occupy Wall Street is suing to bring their tents and sleeping bags back to the park, but in Clark v. Community for Creative Non-Violence (1984), the Supreme Court held that the National Park Service could enforce its rules against sleeping in tents at Washington's Lafayette park and National Mall (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203699404577046591489468470.html?m od=rss_opinion_main), even for a symbolic protest about homelessness. The tents in Zuccotti Park were shelter, not symbolic speech. As First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams told Reuters, it's a "real stretch to maintain that sleeping in a designated area itself is anything more than what it appears to be."

So much for that argument. Now what gives them the right to free electricity?

I'm quoting him, did you miss this part?

Nope, I saw it and that wasn't a quote.

So much for that argument.Hello again, Steve:

I wasn't addressing ANY particular argument... I was just showing you that the Constitution TRUMPS local law, if the intent or the enforcement of it, is intended to disrupt a Constitutionally protected assembly of citizens.

They can't use spitting ordinances.. They can't use zoning ordinances. They can't use sitting on the sidewalk ordinances. They can't use lack of a permit, or noise laws... They just can't...

That doesn't mean the protesters can steal. Ultimately, there has to be a balance between the protesters right to protest, and the city's right to keep peace. It does NOT mean that one's rights TRUMP the other.

But, it's clear to me, that your side AND the cops think that if they don't like what's going on, they can simply use FORCE to end it... That's just not so. Not, in this great land of ours where we're PROTECTED by a Constitution that, indeed, SOME of us truly love - and it AIN'T YOUR wing.

excon

But, it's clear to me, that your side AND the cops think that if they don't like what's going on, they can simply use FORCE to end it... That's just not so. Not, in this great land of ours where we're PROTECTED by a Constitution that, indeed, SOME of us truly love - and it AIN'T YOUR wing.
It's funny how these sitting protesters get much harsher than the Westboro Baptist Church protesters.

http://ou.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2009/09/18/westboro3.JPG

http://eagleionline.com/files/2010/10/Westboro-Protestor.jpg

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/84/25/b8ae282a4fbf9a09582422c2a9f7.jpeg

We of course have condemned them on more than one occasion on these boards(myself since 2007)

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politics/yea-yea-yea-finally-147352.html

I think the only people who haven't condemned the Phelps are the Phelps themselves. They are vile and despicable, and I've said that here at least 16 times.

Unfortunately you guys are not the one wielding the pepper spray.

Unfortunately you guys are not the one weilding the pepper spray.

What is that supposed to mean?

I take it to mean they sprayed the wrong protest group.

I'd still like to see NK's interpretation.

I take it to mean they sprayed the wrong protest group.
This is correct. I'm not sure how else it could be interpreted.

Just checking.

I take it to mean they sprayed the wrong protest group.

No they sprayed the right group. Of course that other Phelps group needed it too.

It's bad pr if nothing else . People are photoshopping that picture and it's gone more than viral.

The images of the Brits banging on Indian heads sealed the deal with the Gandhi protests .

Until now the police were responding to violent protests and their response has been the correct one . The image of the movement was one of naiivity to the extreme of nihilists . But in this case they are victims . This crosses the line gave them a very important pr victory.

It was a pr victory, but not quite as pivotal as Michael Moore thinks...

Michael Moore: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident ‘Resonates’ With The World Like Tienanmen Square (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/michael-moore-uc-davis-pepper-spray-incident-resonates-with-the-world-like-tiananmen-square/)

Hello again, Steve:

Who would have thought that a fruit vender setting himself on fire in Tunisia would be HUGELY pivitol to the entire world?

I've predicted OWS is THIS generations' 1968. I wish them well.

excon

You know, there are federal laws protecting abortion clinic access and that's fine, I don't agree with blocking abortion clinic entrances as a tactic any more than I agree with the occupiers blocking businesses and commutes. In fact, the Obama administration is cracking down on such clinic protesters (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/09/obama-doj-cracks-down-protestors-blocking-abortion-clinics). And while I deplore the UC pepper spray incident, what makes blocking the police after being warned or blocking private business and streets any less egregious a violation than blocking a clinic entrance? Why doesn't the media treat the current obstruction as seriously as if clinic access was blocked somewhere?

yeah isn't that peaceful assembly or something ?

My guess would be the level of violence that has occurred around clinics as people have been killed, and clinics firebombed at clinics across the country.

For sure, if violence escalates around OWS and student protests, no doubt the push back will escalate also.

This site has but some of the clever photoshopping being done with the image of the pepper spraying incident .

Pepper Spray Cop / Casually Pepper Spray Everything Cop | Know Your Meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepper-spray-cop-casually-pepper-spray-everything-cop)

Pepper Spray Cop / Casually Pepper Spray Everything Cop: Image Gallery | Know Your Meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepper-spray-cop-casually-pepper-spray-everything-cop/photos)

casually pepper spray - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ACGW_en&q=casually+pepper+spray&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5125l12672l0l14172l21l16l0l2l2l0l484l3890l0 .6.8.1.1l18l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=983&bih=415&wrapid=tlif132213650984310&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi)
My favorite... Sgt .Pepper .
http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/11/203566-casually-pepper-spray-everything-cop.jpeg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg

And for Ex... I give you the anthem for the movement you were looking for .( apoligies to John Steinbeck)

Occupy Wall Street ANTHEM Bruce Springsteen Tom Joad OWS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-g11IA9mqo&feature=related)

I saw Springsteen do this song live with Tom Morello of 'Rage against the Machine ' at Madison Square Garden at the rock and Roll Hall of Fame Concert a couple years ago.

and for Ex .... I give you the anthem for the movement you were looking for Hello tom:

To quote a famous politician, it's twue, it's, it's twue, it's twue..

Happy Thanksgiving.

excon

Very similar to the Woodstock crowd. The artists who gave anthems to the movement got on their helicopters and limos to get from venue to venue and lived in the nicest hotels while the kids camped out for 3 days in the mud.
Springteen is 1% isn't he ? Tom Joad ,in desperation ,packed up his family and became a migrant worker. The Occupiers wear designer jeans ,have ipods and pads ;and think working with your hands is beneath one.

Springteen is 1% aint he ? The Occupiers wear designer jeans ,have ipods and pads ;and think working with your hands is beneath one.Hello again, tom:

Here's the thing you miss... You think Al Gore can't be legitimate because he flies around in a jet.. You think Springsteen is phony because he has money. You think people who DON'T work with their hands can understand someone who does.. You think they can't have legitimate complaints because they wear designer jeans... Although I don't know, I'll bet you de-legitimized the Kennedy's because they thought of OTHERS besides their rich friends...

Why would those who recognize the plight of the underclass BE de-legitimized in your mind? Because they aren't members?? If you have to BE poor to speak for the poor who's going to hear you? Do you even believe that the underclass SHOULD have a voice??

Sure, you'll say... They're free to hire well dressed spokesman, IF they can. That's the American way, after all... But, it's not.

I suggest, again, that you look PAST the people who are doing the talking, and LISTEN to what they say... But, you can't do that.. You're blinded by their bling.

That's one of the things I soooo admire about myself... I HAVE the ability to empathize with people ACROSS the board... I get along with death row inmates, just like I do CEO's. I can relate to a drug user as I can a senator.. I understand HOW the wealthy feel and what they want, and I also relate to the poor..

If you want to talk with me ABOUT their complaints, we could engage... But, I'm not going to talk to you about what they wear.

excon

My beef isn't with Springsteen . He's out to make a buck... and a 1990s song of his that was pretty much a bust will get a rebirth because someone took stills of the OWS crowd and made a clever video.

But for the Occupiers to think their beef is similar to what the Tom Joads of the 1930s were is delusional ,self absorbed ,and a distortion.

Maybe what they really want is -ism ?

50-year-old CARTOON TRIED TO WARN US - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjrZNi49bE&feature=related)

Maybe what they really want is -ism ?

50-year-old CARTOON TRIED TO WARN US - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjrZNi49bE&feature=related)

Hi Dad,

Some irony in this cartoon as well.

It is through disunity we maintain our freedom rather than unity

When we make a concerted effort to guard against others who would take our freedom we run the risk of creating a tyranny of the majority.

"Society can and does exercise its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression.........."

J.S. Mill

Calling themselves 1%ers is likely to get their butts kicked...

The REAL 1%ers are dudes like the Hells Angels, The Bandidos, Pagans, etc...

Maybe what they really want is -ism ?

50-year-old CARTOON TRIED TO WARN US - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjrZNi49bE&feature=related)

an interesting contrast with your society today, one could say your values have shifted somewhat and you adopted an ISM or two or three.

CapitalISM, EnvironmentalISM, MilitarISM

We haven't been a capitalist nation in over 100 years .

We have never been a capitalist nation. That's just a fancy word for oligarchy, always has been. What you thought that slavery ended with the south being defeated??

Geeez guy, all they did was take metal chains off the black people, and put green ones on everybody.

LOL, you actually fell for that trick??

I know one group that wants to put 'green ' shackles on us all.

we haven't been a capitalist nation in over 100 years .

Yes and Russia wasn't communist for 70 years. What nonsense! Of course you are a capitalist nation. It may be a little modified but it exists and is the basis of your economic system. Capitalism cannot be allowed to exist unfettered just as communism cannot be allowed to exist unfettered. Both systems impinge on the rights of individuals to a massive extent and exploit the least able to protect themselves.

I expect you will tell me next you are not a democracy and haven't been for over 200 years. It's OK, I believe you. The question is not what form of government and organisation we have but whether it is effective. Given the current crises we observe I would say the ratings are very low and a new theorm is needed

we haven't been a capitalist nation in over 100 years .

Almost 100 years. The exact date is December 23, 1913.

Just a bit more to go for that 100.

Almost 100 years. The exact date is December 23, 1913.

Just a bit more to go for that 100.

Hi Dad,

Why that date?

Tut

Central banking system Tut the theory is that capitalism can only exst if it isn't regulated

Hi Dad,

Why that date?

Tut

That is the date the federal reserve kicked in. Since then its been a mess.

Its not the system, it's the people that work the system. Say what you will about whatever they call whatever government.

Tal apparently lots of people lost a lot of money in an unregulateed system so in that case the government probably did a good thing, took some of the cheat factor out