My wife says I don't fill the empathy 'best friend' hole in her life, and has moved out to live at her parents, but doesn't want a divorce yet. I had finally convinced her to go to Marriage Counseling next week. I've been calling her daily, but she doesn't want to have 'heavy' conversations, just light conversations about daily stuff. She moved out for a week last month, she would come home every day and we'd cuddle, but she'd spend the night at her parents house. She told me she was upset that I didn't call her during that time.

I've been putting old love photos on her dashboard of her car while she's at work, and other little things to show her that I still love her.

Do I need to not talk to her at all until the marriage counseling. I'm so confused. It doesn't seem like anything I can say will fix anything. She doesn't want to stay at home because sex confuses her mind and makes her want to stay with me, and she says she needs a clear head, and to 'rediscover herself'.

I understand that the 'no contact' rule applies after a breakup, but a marriage separation (or whatever this is)??

Also, since she got mad at me last time for not calling her at her parents house. Should I tell her 'I'm not going to call you, you call me'.

Should I even take her calls if she calls.

Space means space to think and if you stay in contact it ll only add to whatever confusion there is already.
I suggest you tell your wife you ll not contact her until you meet up for the counselling session.

I'm scared because last month she admitted to kissing a coworker, and I forgave her, and then she was 5 hours late home from work the other day, and admitted that she was with him again, but did not have sex. Since she has moved into her parents house, she has realized that she needs to take a break from him and me.

I'm afraid that if I don't constantly remind her of me, that it will give the other guy an upper hand.

That's where you need to stay strong and not come across as needy and clingy.
Leave her alone until the session next week or you may actually push her away.

Thread moved to Marriage section

Sounds like she's leading you on how she wants to proceed. She wants to keep the conversations "light" and she wants you to call her during the day. So I would go with that.

Marriage counselling is a good first step. If both of you want this marriage to work, then you'll BOTH have to put in the effort. It can't be a one-way marriage, which is why I find the fact that she kissed another guy is very disturbing. That's considered cheating in my books. The trust is obviously shaken and she should also be trying to repair the marriage. But you forgave her so easily, I wonder what else she thinks that she can get away with.

I have never kissed my best friend, have you? The "empathy, best friend" hole is not what I'd be worried about.

She is actually upset with you because you didn't call her, while she is at her mothers trying to figure out if she wants to be with some other guy, over you? No.

She admitted to kissing a guy from work. Then she spends FIVE hours with him. In my book she is a cheater, plain and simple. Even if she didn't have sex with "Mr. Empathy I. Wonderful", she is breaking her marriage vows, and is blaming you for it.

I hope there are no children in this mess. As it would make it even more difficult.

You need to decide on what you are willing to put up with.

Because if she had a legitimate complaint about what you do,or don't do, she should have come to you first.

Do you think she is staying away from this other guy? No, she moved back home so she can date again.

I really feel for you, and I don't mean to be harsh or blunt, but you need to stop putting pictures in her car, and doing all the things that you are doing, and tell her straight out," if you want ME to be your husband, come home and let's work it out like adults, or I'm having a yard sale in the front yard."

"How much did you pay for all those sweaters? because I'm selling them for 4 for a dollar."

I wish you luck and peace.

But you forgave her so easily, I wonder what else she thinks that she can get away with.
Exactly... This woman needs to be shaken up a bit.

Why on earth do you beg for her when she is "catting" around with someone from work? Yes it hurts, Yes there are so many things at risk here... yes you could lose her for good.

But, understand, as long as she has no respect for you, you've already lost her.

Her telling you that she Cheated... and you forgive her so easy... Then you beg her to come back home... She can do anything to you and you just take it.

I'm not being mean, I need to point out in glaring examples of just what is going on.

Being nice at this point is not going to win her back... YOU HAVE BEEN VERY NICE so far and that's not really working is it?

She needs to realize somehow that you aren't always going to be waiting in the wings while she engages in despicable behavior... Then she gets to run home to your comforts... No no...

How long have you two been married and how old are you? How long did you know each other before getting married?

I almost feel like I am reading about a couple of teens who haven't learned how to communicate with each other instead of grown adults in a marriage.

I will agree with keeping communications light until counseling just so that neither of you say something that might make matters worse. Use the time to do some heavy thinking about what you really want in the marriage and what you are willing to compromise and work on.

I hope marriage counseling helps sort out the problems that you are experiencing and to decide where to go from here.

By the way, I kiss my best friend several times a day. I am very thankful that I have his friendship as well as his love.

Proceed with caution. You do want her to know you still care, but you do not want to appear to be clingy. This will only annoy her. I'd wait to speak with her st the counseling session. In as few words as possible tell her that you love her and that you believe your marriage is worth saving, but that you will allow her the space she needs. I am concerned, however, that you feel you must constantly remind her of your prescence, lest she fall into the arms of another man. That doesn't sound like commitment to me. Marriage is hard, and you will have a difficult time of it if she runs away from home anytime she feels conflicted.

Thank you for your replies.

We've been together 8, married for for almost 6 years. We're both 26.

We haven't learned to communicate effectively. I also never learned empathy until recently, so when her grandfather died, I didn't comfort her, because I didn't know what to do. She's scared that the next time something emotional in her life happens that I won't 'be there' to provide her emotional support.

When she came to me with problems, I'd try to 'fix' them logically, instead of emotionally. She also doesn't think she can confide in emotionally. She hides a lot of her feelings from me.

As far as the other guy. She's living an hour away from everything now, with no internet access. So that makes it harder for her to have any contact.

Last week she basically said, "I'm leaving you to be with this guy because he provides what I need", and I talked her into staying and talking that night, now she says she realizes that it is wrong for her to throw that into the mix.

If you both approach the counseling sessions with open minds and a willingness to work on the marriage, there may be chance for your marriage.

It sounds like both of you were not as invested in the marriage as you should have been. It will take a while for both of you to build up trust in each other. Her, that you will be there to give her support in all the ways that she needs and you, that she won't turn to someone else again and will turn to you for that support.

Good luck.

There are books that you can read to help you with your feelings. Don't give up.

However, she has crossed the line, and she should know that. If you let her get away with this, she will have a "be with any man I want card".

Even though she is an hour away, do you think that the other man will stay away?

I would have a little chat with him, as he is pursuing your WIFE.

Do you want to be with a person who runs into the arms of another whenever she is angry, lonely, and tired? No, of course not.

It may turn out that she is just not the one you want to be with. You are still young, be happy, at all costs.

I don't know who the guy is. I briefly snooped around on her IM, and saw horrible text messages from him, and just now logged on to see if he was online. He's a coworker of hers, in another department.

This was her first relationship, she was a very antisocial person, and I have been in over 30 relationships before, so I guess I just knew how to 'sweep girls off her feet', but my experience has led me to know what I want.

I can forgive her for emotional hurt, I'm strong enough to do that, and I don't hold grudges.

Since she was essentially 'out the door' and 'out of my life' seemingly the other day when she told me she was leaving to be with him, and I managed to say something that made her change her mind, I think there's hope.

She doesn't think that people are capable of change, and we've never really had the ability to communicate about problems. She's scared that she will end up pregnant, and that I won't be there for her emotionally.

I had been stupid in the past, I had discouraged her from talking to me about how bad her day was, since she works at a call center and every day at work is a bad day. I also spent way too much time online, and now when she's home, I try to stay off the computer and devote all my attention to her, but also trying to give her space when she was at home.

She also thinks that we don't bond about the topics of discussion, that there's not much commonality. I have a lot of geeky hobbies, so I talk about a lot of stuff that's over her head and she feels bad about that. I don't mind if she doesn't truly care about what I talk about, just as long as she listens.

Well,

I wanted to call her, and talk about light stuff, she said she thinks she wants to go to school to be a nurse, so I thought that was a good conversation to talk about.

Stupidly I started the conversation saying that I think the point of a separation is to find out if she misses me, and that me smothering her might hurt that, so that she should call me if she wants to talk.

Conversation quickly devolved into she doesn't want me to psychoanalyze her and try to push her to fix things over the phone, which I didn't try to do. I told her I had gotten out the 'do not contact' part of the conversation and wanted to move to more light talking, she said she was busy and was going to Costco with her parents.

I asked her if she misses me, she says 'miss' is the wrong work, that she aches.

So I guess I'm going to give this 'no contact' thing a try until our counselor on Wednesday. She just seemed so angry and distant on the phone, it wasn't productive, whereas normally our in-person talks are seemingly productive, except that I could never get her to commit to 'trying'.

I just want to see if I have this right.

Your wife has issues with feeling like she can't tell you how she feels about things. She is afraid that you won't be there for her. You just told this woman who already feels like you shut her out emotionally that you are starting No Contact. You are making her contact you and hope that you pick up the phone.

This is after, instead of keeping to a light conversation, you start the conversation by talking about the separation which is not a light topic.

I am really hoping that counseling goes well for you.

I think that you have some work to do on yourself, and that counselling will be good for you. I think that you've probably lived your life thinking about you and not bothering about how others feel. It's all been too difficult hasn't it?

Why can't you empathize with the death of a loved one? Your wife is right to be wary of your capacity to deal with life's issues and your capacity to hear what she is asking of you. There is a watershed moment in all of our lives, when we realize that the life we're living isn't quite right and that we have contributed to that situation. This is yours.

Your wife has been telling you for some time that you lack empathy and you haven't listened. I suspect you don't know how to.

I would use marriage counselling as an opportunity to discover yourself and why you're afraid of feelings and connecting with other human beings.

I don't know if your marriage will survive this.

Thank you for your feedback.

She IM'd me an hour ago and said she was sorry for yelling at me. I called her up and we had a light conversation. She was talking about mexican food, and her career hopes.

I guess I shouldn't do the 'no contact', but should be more attentive to 'taking a hint' when she wants to get off the phone. She always has to 'go to costco' or 'watch her dad show her the chili recipe'.

Up until last week she didn't tell me what it was that was missing. She basically said it would be cheating if I didn't figure it out. I have been practicing empathy at every opportunity for the last week since she told me.

I guess my path here is to work on the light conversation, and then hopefully it will go into light dating.

Quote by dustdevil;
Up until last week she didn't tell me what it was that was missing. She basically said it would be cheating if I didn't figure it out.

What does this mean? That she ISN'T cheating?

You need work. You know that, and are trying to do so. I think that this time away might do you two some good. As long as the other guy is out of the picture.

I have a question for you. How do your in-laws feel about you? Are they pulling for you? Or are they content with the current arrangement?

Do they know about they other guy?

I hate to keep bring him up, but she did say that she was leaving you to be with him. Then she blamed you, and your faults ( lack of empathy... ).

Leaving you, until you do some personal changing is one thing. But using YOUR faults to be with another man is just plain wrong.

You practice empathy, as long as she practices monogamy.

I truly hope things work out for you. You sound like a nice guy.

She said it wouldn't be fair if she told me what she wanted. It was utter crap, and she wouldn't tell me what she wanted for the first 3 weeks that she was off and on leaving. She wouldn't tell me why she was leaving me. Maybe she didn't want to have a reason, I don't know.

My in-laws still love me. Her mom thinks that the other guy should be out of the picture, but this is their only child, so they also don't want to be pushy, and want to be supportive, so I don't think they offer real advice on what she should do, just emotional support.

I've called her mom twice while she is there to get some advice, etc, and her mom just has a lot of 'i don't know' answers.

I'm going to stick with no contact, at least for today. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. I'm just going to assume that she's gone, and is trying to avoid hurting my feelings as much. My female friend who's also going through divorce says that women can't just drop other men out of guilt, they have to play the entire thing through, so she figures that my wife won't stop seeing this other guy regardless of what she says.

She said it wouldn't be fair if she told me what she wanted. It was utter crap, and she wouldn't tell me what she wanted for the first 3 weeks that she was off and on leaving. She wouldn't tell me why she was leaving me. Maybe she didn't want to have a reason, I dunno.

My in-laws still love me. Her mom thinks that the other guy should be out of the picture, but this is their only child, so they also don't want to be pushy, and want to be supportive, so I don't think they offer real advice on what she should do, just emotional support.

I've called her mom twice while she is there to get some advice, etc, and her mom just has alot of 'i don't know' answers.

I'm going to stick with no contact, at least for today. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. I'm just going to assume that she's gone, and is trying to avoid hurting my feelings as much. My female friend who's also going through divorce says that women can't just drop other men out of guilt, they have to play the entire thing through, so she figures that my wife won't stop seeing this other guy regardless of what she says.

Your friend sounds very smart. I'm sorry, but your wife seems too selfish to even worry about. This is not the behavior of a married person who promised to be there "for better or for worse" .

I would plan on leaving her myself. You're still young, go find someone more considerate.

Unfortunately, I too, think your wife is still seeing this other guy. In her eyes she is dating again. Why else would the parents want him out of the picture?

Yes, for me, it would be NO CONTACT, except being served divorce papers. And like I said, there would be a huge yard sale, of all of her stuff. "CHEAP AS DIRT" would read the ad in the paper.

NOno... JMJ is steering you correctly but allow me to add.

This is about control and Manipulation. Don't ever allow someone to tell you that they cannot love you unless you change ANYTHING about yourself.

You are who you are and if you listen to the wrong woman, you could wind up eviscerated and miserable with yourself.

You need to stand tough and be the man at this point. Begging her to stay when she has committed these despicable acts will never win her back.

She needs to see you as the man she fell in love with. Strong and masculine. If she has problems communicating with you, she may need therapy to rectify that fault in her.

This is a crossroads in your manhood and the marriage. By all means use contraceptive if you get near her. The next page in the play book is of course her getting pregnant.

Quote by jham123;
She needs to see you as the man she fell in love with. Strong and masculine. If she has problems communicating with you, she may need therapy to rectify that fault in her.


The same man who didn't comfort her when her grandfather died? The same man who wouldn't listen to how her day went because he knew it would be bad?

A marriage is about compromise and, yes, that means both partners sometimes have to make changes to make the marriage work.

That does not mean I condone her behavior. However, I don't condone his either.

dustdevil, if you want your marriage to work out, do not go into your counseling session with the mindset that you don't have to do anything or change anything, and that the counselor should be a divorce lawyer. If you think that way, then end your marriage NOW!!

Cat, I do agree (had to spread the rep).

In this case immaturity and stubbornness seem to be playing a big part in the dénouement of this relationship.

Dustdevil I don't think it's a good idea to ring her parents and ask them to intervene on your behalf. It does sound as if your wife is punishing you or taunting you and it does not sound as if you have the understanding or the skills to reach her.

By all means be strong and masculine, but understand that communication goes both ways. Your marriage is in trouble and you have played a part in creating that dynamic.

Do not avoid the counseling. It's now your chance to learn about yourself and to grow from this challenge.

Thanks. I've been looking forward to going to the counseling.

Through my pain, and the comfort I have received from friends, I have a better understanding of empathy.

I full know that I have things that I need to work on, and have not been in denial of that fact.

I don't know if I'd go as far as give her an ultimatum yet.

Giving her an ultimatum is just another form of Manipulation. You need to stop trying to control her and she you... Like I said, this is all about control in the marriage.

Stop.

You be you and be a man about it. THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD DO that would justify her running into the arms of another man. Get a grip in this... and don't let go.

Do you need work to mature? Could you be better as a man? Is there room for you to be a better person?

SURE THERE IS... but whatever... you don't deserve to have to beg a woman back that has stepped out on YOU.

That is the point here. You work on you and become a better person. But HER? Becoming a better person may be NOT being with a spouse that uses others as a threat to get her way or to tell you that you must change.

And last, I'll never relent from this. A person loves you or they don't... it is emotional abuse for one to state that they cannot show you love or affection unless you change. They married the person that you are... Do people change during marriage? We all do as we grow older... not one person is the same as they were when they turned 21... so no, The game of "I can't love you until you change [X] about yourself is nothing more than manipulation.

I know where you are - my husband left me thinking he would be happier without me after years of a marriage that had communication problems. He cheated, he belittled me, I belittled him, we both were a mess. I agreed to a divorce and then retracted... emotions are just ever changing when this kind of thing happens.

Finally, I decided we needed to separate. I wrote him a letter and made a copy for myself. It said "I'm not asking for a divorce. I love you and will welcome you home when you are 100% committed to our marriage. However, I will not share you with another person and I'm not going to be lied to or dishonored in my own home. I'm sorry that I made mistakes, I regret them and I will be praying and working on those things in therapy. If you choose not to come home I will be sad but I will move on." That letter spelled it out. No chit-chat necessary. We both needed that letter - for him to know where I stood and for ME to know where I stood when I wanted to cave in.

I held him to that standard. We did not talk unless it had to do with the children or money. If he called me "just to talk" I said I was not ready to talk and hung up the phone. I was not mean, but I was allowing myself to heal. A separation needs time to work. You won't win her back by begging or stalking her. You will win her back when she sees you doing the right thing every day - going to counseling (on your OWN, you have issues to work through), going to work, finding ways to stay busy and starting to smile again.

So... the result. During our separation I had learned so much about myself, how I was not a loving wife, how I had done things that hurt my husband even though I had not intended to. He needed work too - and he had counseling on his own after a bit. After almost 5 months of being apart he had a breakthrough moment with God and he called and said he was so sorry for the things he had done and wanted to fix the mess we had made. I had the 100% commitment that I had asked for. Anything less would not have worked. We reconciled and it's been 2 1/2 years since he came home. We still have to work on things, we need to be careful to not fall back into old patterns. But we talk more, we listen more, and we honor each other in all things.

Your marriage can survive this - but you need to get in to see a therapist to help you work out why you did not meet her needs, why did you allow your marriage to be communication-less, how do you work through the infidelity issues...

You've been together 11 years - it's worth a year to try to fix it. It can work...

Thanks.

Well, Tuesday we went to the movies, and dinner afterwards, and I told her that I wish she would come back home, to which she replied 'No I can't do that'. I felt terrible. We then cuddled and made out in the parking lot, and then she stopped and told me she's not depositing her checks into our bank account anymore. We both left feeling terrible. I called her afterwards saying that we left on the wrong foot and I told her I love her, and I miss her, and I'm glad she's going to therapy tomorrow.'. She said the same.

At therapy, it was pretty much '20 questions' for the intake session. I didn't learn anything new. Therapist said that next week we'll work on back and forth communication.

After therapy, we sat in the parking lot cuddling. I told her how happy it makes me to hold her in my arms. We made out (She initiated) and then she left.

The next day I asked if we could hang out after work. We went to goodwill to go clothes shopping for her for a party. I felt like I was walking on eggshells and couldn't really get beyond casual conversation (Like you'd have with a stranger). She invited me to go to dinner with her, and we ate and smiled at each other the entire time. I apologized for being retarded when she was emotionally hurt at her grandpas funeral, and I told her I realize through calling my parents, that both of them are incapable of empathy, and that I don't want to grow up to be like them. She told me she's glad to hear that. We cuddled and she initiated making out again.

Her parents went out of state this weekend, and she was going to go with them, which would make things easy on me, because I wouldn't have to worry about trying to hang out with her. She ended up staying behind. I asked her if she'd like to hang out, and she says she'll call me tomorrow.

I think I've made it clear that I'm committed to fixing my problems. We both told the therapist that we need to work on my empathy. It just hurts me when I see that there is this 'wall' between us.

When I see this 'wall' between us, it makes it hard for me to just 'be myself', and even though I want to hang out with her, I'm far from confident when we do hang out (Although I try to be confident).

Why is there a wall? Why did it seemingly pop up overnight, and what will make it go away? Everyone keeps telling me 'give it time'. I'd feel much better if I knew that we just hit the 'pause' button on our relationship to figure things out, rather than seeing all this separation as emotional distancing. I'm scared of her slipping away, although I have no reason to suspect that. I also feel that we can't do any healing until this 'wall' is gone, but I suspect the wall can't be gone until we emotionally heal, and emotional healing can't be done in 'light conversation'.

The uncertainty kills me! I was feeling REALLY good because I was certain there was nothing I could do while she was out of state, and then as soon as I heard she stayed behind that uncertainty came back up on what I should do and it's driving me nuts.

I don't think the wall popped up over-night. I think you just didn't see it being built up. It happens. What matters is that you are trying to tear it down now. Unfortunately, it will take both of you to make it disappear.

I know you are scared and unsure about what is going on and what she is thinking. Hopefully, in the next session there will be more clarification about where each of you see the relationship going.

I just hope she wants to work on it as much as you do.

Well, she ended up not going out of state with her parents. I asked her Saturday if she'd like to hang out, and she said she'd call me Sunday morning.

We went today to the zoo for 4 hours. We'd hold hands, and I'd give her the occasional hug or kiss on the cheek. We sat down to smoke next to a grass field with lots of children playing, and she started to cry. I asked her what's wrong and she didn't answer. I asked if it was the kids, and she said it was.

While I wouldn't mind having kids, I never obsess over having them. I told my wife that once I get a stable job and we buy a house that we can have kids then.

I told her that therapy will also help me to become a better parent.

She said "I don't want to go to therapy anymore", and I told her that I don't believe that. She said 'then stop talking about it', and so I agreed, and we got something to eat and continued around the zoo as if nothing had happened.

I said I was going to get some dinner afterwards, and she said that she's going to go straight to her parents house.

I called her on her drive back to her parents house, and asked if I'd see her on Wednesday (at the therapist), she said she didn't know. She said that her heart is not in this relationship anymore, and 'what's the point of going to therapy'. I told her that I think that therapy will help us develop that.

She thinks that because we don't have common interests that we shouldn't be together. I'm an engineer, and I talk about geeky stuff a lot, and I think I bore her. I've avoided talking about that stuff on our recent dates however. She said the discussion about her heart not being in it is best saved for therapy, and I'm convinced she's going to go because she said that.

Ouch. I always figured that kids weren't something that guys obsessed over with desire, but that it's one of those things that you decide that you'll have them when you're ready, and when they come, they'll change your life. I always thought that women were wired to have an urge for children, and the husbands role is to be supportive of that.

I'm torn. It's hard to 're-bond' on our 'dates' because of walking on eggshells, and I probably lack the confidence during them, although I try my best to be confident on our dates.

In the last month or two she had asked me to tell her the things I loved about her, and I could come up with a handful of things, so today I sat down for an hour, and made a list of 50 things that I loved about her and e-mailed it to her.

I'm an emotional rollercoaster. I'll go from feeling healed, and then feel like crying the next moment (usually after talking to her). It's a crapshoot on whether I'll feel better or worse after talking or hanging out with her. Right now I'm kind of numb, but think that I should be crying instead.

Leave this needy baby alone.

Stop dating and small talk

No more cuddling, or making out.

If she wants to stop the therapy, let her.

You better let your female know either you talk or leave each other alone.

Somewhere your going to have to take a stand, and she will have to make a decision, and she has to be willing to work with you, or drop the BS and let you go.

Limbo is not a place to be, and will accomplish nothing.

Don't think for one minute you are blameless because you never paid attention enough to address issues that we all face. One thing I do know is either you work together through honest communications, or you don't.

That sappy game your playing only keeps false hope and emotions all stirred up, but neither of you is working at it.

The bottom line is always establish dialog between you, even if you have to make up a new language, and being tired of this emotional roller coaster is an honest expression of your feelings, and if she doesn't want to play any more, leave her alone.

I haven't even addressed her seeing other guys yet, but you get nothing done being separated, and playing kissy face, and talking about nothing.

Thanks.

We went to therapy Wednesday, and did a conversation excersise, and got some feelings out of the way regarding parenthood and some other things. She seemed very responsive to this and agreed to another day of therapy.

Therapist said that she is the 'pace car' and will need to set the pace for our interactions. Unfortunately the therapist wasn't aware that we still weren't living together until the last 2 minutes or so of therapy.

She said she won't come back home until she's committed, because she doesn't want to have one foot in and out of the door.

I told her as much as it pains me, and as much as I want to pick up the phone and text or call, that I know that I need to let her initiate and control the pace, and won't be trying to talk her into any dates or anything.

I haven't received any calls or contact outside of therapy in the last 4 days, but I feel a lot better now, and am once again hopeful. As long as I can avoid screwing anything up until next therapy session.

This is a good time to get your own act together, as its more important to have your own path to be on and not wait for someone else to decide what they want. I'm sure you can find ways to improve your own lot, and focus on you.

I have a feeling you'll discover many things that have affected your thinking, and action, that you can do for yourself.

Worrying about what another will do will sap your strength, and distract you greatly from your task.

Thanks.

One of the issues in therapy was fatherhood. I had always told her we could have kids after I get successful job and house. Yesterday I realized that women's biological clocks start counting down at 30-35, and this put things into a new perspective, that she can't wait until a 'perfect situation' occurs, and that's she's scared because of that.

I wrote her a letter telling her how I felt about that, and how I now understood her feelings regarding that and sense of urgency, and told her that I would be okay with having kids before having the perfect job/house.

Later on she said that she doesn't want to have kids with me. She gave me the 'Lets be friends' thing.

When I try to push her to working on things, she backs off, if I give her the ultimatum of 'lets talk or lets go our own ways' she says 'okay, then lets get a divorce now!'

But if she says 'we can still be friends right?' and I tell her 'no, not if you leave me', she comes back to me a bit.

She's scared of losing me, but not sure what she wants, and all I can do is make things worse...

If you wait "till" that time never comes, there is always never enough and the more we make the more we normally spend

I strongly recommend "love languages" by Chapman it has worked wonders in many couples

Stop pushing, or pulling, or whatever your doing, and let her make her decisions without your influence. For now just the therapy is quite enough contact.

As for this fatherhood thing, let it go, You ain't there yet. And for the record, doesn't matter how well you plan, or what the situation, babies happen when they do, but it does explain the making out, without going further.

So I continued on the no contact. Last contact was briefly on Saturday morning and then she contacted me today on Tuesday to come over and talk in person.

I was convinced she was coming over to finalize the divorce. At times it seems like she was heading that way in conversation. She finally said that she's going to therapy again tomorrow. I asked if she was going for 'us' since she said she was going for her benefit last time. She said that she can't say she's going to therapy for us. That she wants to know how she can fix things so that it doesn't happen in future relationships.

It's hard for her to accept that I want to change. I've given every indication that I want to change, but she doesn't think that people can change. I want us to deal with issues, instead of ignoring them. To call B.S. on one another when something hurts us, instead of letting it fester.

She doesn't feel it's right for me to be willing to change my behavior. I think it's perfectly acceptable. I've been selfish, etc.

I'm an engineer, and do a lot of geeky hobbies. She occasionally has hobbies, but generally doesn't do anything at home except watch TV and play video games on occasion. She feels we're not right for each other because it's hard to strike up a conversation. Like when I bring up something technical, she doesn't care, and if she were to ask me about the color of something, that I don't care.

I feel that the issue is that we're both 'boring' to each other. I told her that I think the solution is for us to go out and 'get a life' and do things together. When we normally go on dates, it's usually a movie, or to the same restaurant. We pretty much have had the same dates for the past 2 years. It's hard to strike up engaging conversations with one another.

She mentioned a few months back, that we should both join the local art theater, and I thought it was a great idea, and I keep bringing it up as something that we should do, as it would be something that we could both enjoy doing together. She seems to resent it when I mention doing activities together, and thinks that people should just 'get along' and have interesting conversations together, otherwise they just weren't meant to be, regardless of external stimulus, while I think that we have 'cabin fever'...

We've been together for almost 8 years, and moved out of state 5 years ago, and never rebuilt a network of friends up here in this new state. ( I have one friend that moved with us, so I visit him ). I think it's not unusual for couples to become conversationally boring to each other.

Is having to force conversation with your spouse, instead of it coming naturally really that unusual after being together so long? Is it something that can be worked on? She doesn't seem to think so.

I still can't get her to say that she's going to therapy to fix OUR relationship, but at least she's still going.

The only thing I don't like in all of these replies are " IF you go to marriage counseling with an open mind and willingly, there MAY be a chance to save your marriage" Really? Seriously? When two people WANT to be together, they will stay together. Being married isn't about getting divorced as soon as you hit obstacles, its about getting through them together, and being stronger because of them.

The hardest part is that I tell her that I want to change, and she asks why I didn't in the past when she brought it up.

To be honest, I think I was immature, or just wanted to ignore problems. I told her that just like with alcoholics and born again christians, that they need to hit rock bottom before they can rebuild. I told her that this separation is me hitting rock bottom. I can't apologize enough for the misdeeds I had done in the past, but she keeps pointing to prior actions, and I can't seem to get it across that the change happens NOW and in the future, that I can't change the past, but that I can learn from it, and be better from it.

I also pointed at her problems when asked. She would go into the bedroom and sulk on the bed, obviously displeased, and I'd come in, and ask her what's wrong, and she'd always reply 'nothing', and then I'd do the only thing I knew to do, and try to cheer her up by doing something goofy or by hugging her.

Or when we're talking about something that upset her, and try to clarify by asking questions, she'll get upset, as if I'm 'too stupid to figure it out'.

Does she tell you she is upset when you've done something wrong? Or is she ignoring it and you, but yet still being upset with you? Sounds like she has a LOT of growing up to do as well.

I held things against my husband constantly, then I realized - if he asked how to fix it, I would reply, I don't know - so how can I expect him to do it? If I don't tell him what he said hurt my feelings, and get angry - he can't fix anything because I refused to tell him. What does your wife like doing? Movie? Dancing? Maybe you should set a couple weekend days a month just doing that..

I wanted to recommend you doing 'The Love Dare' as well. It is based off the movie Fireproof, I don't understand why more counselors don't recommend this to their clients! Even if you don't get results right away, keep working at it, it'll change your life. I started this journey, but being my husband is in the military and gone often, I haven't completed it.

The Love Dare Official Site: Get the book from the movie Fireproof (http://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/lovedare/)

Thanks for the book recommendation. I read the first few pages of the sample. It seems like a good book. Unfortunately it's for couples in a different stage than we're at.

She never tells me when she's upset or why. Or almost never. I need to get better at reading between the lines.

Therapist said to take asking her to come home, and fatherhood discussions off the table with her for now. The homework the therapist gave her was to bring up issues in the past, so that I can understand and empathize with the over-arching theme of her hurt and for me to keep a journal of my emotions throughout the day, and other peoples emotions that I notice, so I can be more emotionally observant.

She's not too keen on talking to me outside of therapy. I guess best case scenario is she contacts me once this week in between sessions. It hurts when I see her on Yahoo messenger, and she chooses not to speak with me (I don't initiate contact now).

Part of me feels that she's already left, and that she's just going to therapy for me to understand why she left, and to not really work on things. The other part of me thinks that with therapy, her feelings of hopelessness in the situation will wane, and that she might eventually show a renewed interest.

She feels that she had given me ample opportunities in the past to change, and doesn't think that my attempts now are genuine. I told her that I was too immature in the past, and now that I've hit rock bottom, that I must work on change. The therapist told her that she was probably being insincere to think that things are incapable of changing for the better.

Things she's said recently, before the last therapy session:

"
I want to have my own life, free of obligation. I want to be able to make the best possible decisions for me and no one else

i don't want to lose you completely but its wrong for me to hold on after this point

its so hard, i'm so sorry i cannot make this easier, can we please still be friends? if somehow thing were different between us I would not close my heart to it

"

I took those to mean 'it's over', but why is she still going to therapy??

Go through the process, and get some insights, so you can learn. Otherwise leave her alone and work on yourself. Its hard going through these changes but its necessary for you to plan to deal with what you have in front of you and that means making a life for yourself, no matter what she does or how long it takes.

I see this as over, for now any way, but that doesn't mean you just sit stuck, as I'm sure you can look around and identify important things for yourself you need to do.

Threads merged

A big issue in my counseling with my wife, aside from my lack of empathy (I'm getting good at giving it) is that she very much wants kids.

When asked, I would tell her that I want a stable, good job, and to buy a house first.

At the time, I didn't fully understand the whole biological clock thing. So I imagined that women could have kids until they were 50 (menopause) without issue, giving plenty of time for perfect house and job.

Then I did some research and discovered that things start to wind down after about 35. We're both 26, been together for 7 years. After I learned this, I wrote her a letter (We're seperated), and told her that the house and the perfect job are wants, and not needs, and that I'm now OKAY with having kids before those things, since I realize that there isn't a 'perfect time'.

But the issue is, that she very strongly desires kids, but I don't CRAVE them. I said I'm open to the idea of having them, and I'm OKAY with having them, but I don't crave and obsess over having them.

I know that we have to work out the rest of the relationship first before ever having kids, but since this is a dealbreaker for her, this needs to be resolved first.

6 years ago, when I created my myspace profile, I put 'does not want kids', even though I don't ever recall ever telling her that I didn't want any. She flipped out when I changed the status to 'someday' about 2 weeks ago. She thinks that I'm not being genuine, and that I'm just catering to her desires.

I wouldn't mind the white picket fence, the family and all that stuff. If she ever got pregnant, I'd fully embrace it. I'm just having a hard time with the fact that I don't CRAVE it as much as she does. Part of me thinks that it's not normal for guys to CRAVE them, that the guys just really appreciate the kids after they come.

Her best friend, is a guy that she always talks on the phone with (he now lives 1,000 miles away), and he has 3 children with 3 different mothers, and LOVES kids and lives with his mom because he can't support anyone. Part of me thinks that he's her role model for how guys should be.

Am I just crazy?

On another note, my wife thinks I hate kids, because I complain about crying babies on planes, or when someone lets their kid loose in a store and it punches me in the leg.

I AM afraid of being one of over half my friends who are divorced with kids, but this is a risk for everyone who has kids.

Both of my parents divorced and remarried three times. I didn't really have a father at home after age 5. Both her parents are still together, and she is an only child.

I hate OTHER people's kids, but mine are the center of the world. I don't find that at all unusual. You raise your children to behave the way you expect them to. Others do not...

Your desire for kids is what it is. I suspect that it will change in a few years. You are only 26. While its true that there is a biological clock and 35 is the *magic* number, it doesn't mean that she cannot have kids into her 40s. However... at 26, 9 years is a LONG time before she hits 35.

My advice: tell her that you need to get your relationship stable before ANYTHING else. If she is unwilling to do that without a child, you are probably better off cutting and finding someone that is willing to love you for who you are, not what biology you might be able to contribute to her issues.

Edited to add: I always wanted kids 'someday'. Once one showed up, I realized someday was yesterday.

Your attitude is pretty typical, as I didn't CRAVE kids either.

She made me do it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Seriously I see a disconnect in communications, and maybe she has a inferiority complex, for whatever reason, and feels overshadowed, and ignored, because she doesn't seem very forthcoming when it comes to communicating on an intellectual level, but it seems she works on an emotional level, and you can't relate very well. That just what I see from your other post. Its very early in the process, though, and I can tell you its you that will have the most adjusting to do.

Just wondering if she is an youngest child, and what kind of household she comes from?

I'm an engineer, she answers phones. She's certainly not dumb, but I know that I make her feel stupid. (I'm working on it). I need to agree and validate her opinions more instead of waxing philosophical. (I'd look up the movie ratings before agreeing to watch a movie, or egg her on to debate a point, rather than just agreeing).

Although I try to immensely value her opinion about anything regarding the house. Anytime we shop, I'll get her approval before buying anything. (She thinks the opposite, she thinks that I'll just argue until I get what I want at the store, and that I'm not really 'asking' her. I can see it both ways)

She's the only child. Her parents had her when they were ~25. She was very goth in high school, antisocial, not really hanging out with friends, kind of just sitting by herself during PE (we'd come by and visit her however).

Her parents love her very much, and sold their house TWICE to be closer to us (an hour away now). They're the best in-laws a person could ask for, they're very emphasizing, giving, patient, they're flawless. (Although they won't talk to her about any of the separation stuff while she's living with them)

You are not crazy. You're a guy, you want to ensure the child is in a financially secure/stable home physically and emotionally. You are not sure if you can be a father right now and this is a general concern with most men... you acknowledge that and if she did become pregnant then you said you would embrace it. You never said absolutely no... your just saying not right now. A separation occurred because of this? If so, then this needs to be resolved and the relationship itself is the one that needs some construction and stability prior to children.

My husband thought the same way and honestly, with my first I didn't know what to expect either... what I found out with my first was babies are a lot of responsibility... sleepless nights, days of not taking showers, wearing joggers, putting myself last, breast feeding then buying formula (if need be), diapers, wipes, food, clothing, accessories... they add up... I think I spent over $5,000 just buying everything in anticipation for the baby and everything the baby will need for the first year and first months supplies. Having children is a serious decision and it takes two active, responsible, loving and caring parents to raise them.

Just so you know, we didn't buy a home or anything before we had our baby... we rented... but that wasn't stable enough for me either... once the baby gets there though... so does the desire to provide, save and plan to buy a home. Usually, a baby is the reason and a push to do what you want to, to be a better person, desire success, to be a responsible parent, spouse, teacher and provider.

Work on your relationship and don't let your parents experience give you fear for the "D" word. My parents have been together for over 35 years and my hubby's parents split but he sees how stable my parents are and they remain a great support and example for him. It sounds like you both will have to work on communicating effectively... not assuming that you know what the other person is thinking and feeling (after 7 years... still... don't make that assumption). Ask and talk.

She sounds like an only child, and a bit sheltered. Don't want to say spoiled, but its evident she doesn't "adjust" to changing circumstances well.

Gah. I'm so frustrated.

I see it as, y'know, we can sit down, talk, straighten things out and figure out what we want to do.

She questions my commitment to self improvement, and how this is different than before when she's complained about stuff, and I've changed for a week or two, then went back to myself.

It's not something I can argue or anything, it's just something I have to SHOW, it's a trust thing.

Asked her to go costume shopping with me after work, but she shot me down, she doesn't want to run late for an evening with her friends after work.

I can't kiss my wife, I can't hug my wife, I can't see my wife.

She's in another city doing her thing, and I'm in another city doing my thing. And the thought that she could be so sick of me to not want to see me is frustrating.

If she's that sick of me, then why doesn't she leave me?

If she thinks there's a chance, then why isn't she actively working on anything?

She spent the weekend with some coworkers and told me about it. One other female, and a bunch of stranger male coworkers, all in a log cabin at the beach playing drinking games.

That broke my heart. The thought of my wife with strange men, drunk, possibly having sex. I don't think she was sleeping with anyone.

I'm not a saint either, I'm hanging out with a platonic female friend, but we'd never get sexually intimate with each other. So it'd be a double standard for me to tell my wife not to do anything.

Banged a baseball bat on the ground for a few minutes in my backyard to try to relive some anger/frustation.

I go from feeling of hopelessness, which is comforting, to limbo, which I just feel sad and cry, to hopefullness which is also comforting. I hadn't cried in 8 days.

I know the best thing to do is to embrace the status quo, to go out and have fun. My best friend is going into depression and starting to avoid supporting me because it's affecting him being around all this drama.

But to know that my wife is only 5 minutes away, while I sit at home, unemployed all day, with nothing to bide my time with while she's 5 minutes away at work, and the feeling of rejection and hopelessness. So frustrating.

I just want to say s**t or get off the pot. Divorce me or come back. I know I have more patience than that however. I'm not ready for any ultimatums or rocking the boat.

We had such wonderful talks in person and on the phone in the last week. I was empathizing, and active listening, and agreeing with her opinion. I was doing *ALL* the right things. Sure, our conversations are progress. After therapy I got a hug from her, and she made that 'moan' noise of satisfaction. It was the best feeling in the world, hugging my wife, and then the sadness that filled in when she 'had to go'.

So frustrated/sad/angry.

If she is now hanging out with other people... telling you all about it - she is deliberately upsetting you. What would happen if you told her about your new friend? So, it would be okay for her to party with coworker men and you not to have a casual friend, right? Chances are she would have a problem with it and then everything would be your fault. I could be completely misjudging her behavior but I am trying to look at it from a woman's view and also having empathy for you. She isn't Mrs. Perfect... she needs to know what is upsetting you as well.

It looks like it is coming down to having communication problems with her; she isn't being clear on what she wants. She and/or you *assume* she/you know what the other is thinking and you both react and say things that are consistently misunderstood. Either the messages you two communicate are NOT effective/clear and/or the message is misunderstood by the recipient. It is basic communication you both need to work on... finding effective ways of communicating without responding with ego or emotions. She isn't taking any personal steps of HER OWN to self improvement and personal growth/actualization. It isn't JUST you that needs work... it is both of you. Kudos to you, because you are taking steps to be better for her... I would just like to say one thing. Ensure that you are going to therapy and doing all these things for YOU and NOT just for her! You change and grow because you genuinely want to make your life better for YOU. At this point you can only control and concentrate on your own circumstances and current life expectations of yourself. You can't concern yourself with her and what she is doing - this is only going to drive you crazier!

Listen, you sound like a really sweet guy and smart... you miss your wife; you want to work things out. It takes two to make a marriage work... 100/100 NOT 50/50 you are not the only one who needs therapy... honestly, if anything - she needs therapy. She sounds very emotionally unstable and not to mention self absorbed - she isn't really all that concerned about how YOU feel but rather how SHE feels.

You need to find out where she wants to go in life (personal goals - personal mission statement) and in the marriage (what you BOTH want - it isn't just about her - it is about you and your happiness as well).

Wife came over today. She had said it was okay for me to see other women/have female friends.

I had briefly trolled the singles ads, and connected with an old female friend. At first I was desperate for physical affection. Now I've grown out of that, and I just want FRIENDS. I thought I wanted another relationship to fill that hole. Now the hole went away, and it doesn't need filling. If anything, all I want is strictly platonic.

Wife came over after work. 3rd week she's come over the day before therapy to do small talk or whatever. I briefly talked on the phone with her Thursday and Friday, just small talk, and got off the phone quickly (within 10 minutes).

Against all relationship advice, I told her that I thought I wanted to date, but realized I don't, and I'm not ready for another relationship, it wouldn't be fair for anyone. I don't *need* another person in my life right now (except the wife). I told her that if I'm going to continue on with working on our marriage, that if I have any self respect, then I'm going to expect the same from her.

She told me she's dating someone else. Arggghh. Pretty sure it's the same guy that she cheated on me with. The same guy that she said in therapy that she'd 'not talk to anymore'.

I told her after we divorce, that I'm not going to be 'still friends' with her, that once she's out of my life, I'm not going to talk to her for at least a few years, if ever again. It's not healthy to keep re-opening old wounds.

I told her if she has no intention of working on this relationship, then to tell me, so that we can move on. She told me 'it's over' (between us).

Then she proceeded to cry for about an hour, while I comforted her. She says she knows that the other guy is poison. That it will take her years to find another good relationship. That she feels that her life is a trainwreck waiting to happen, and everyone can see it, but she feels powerless to change course (I interpret this as how she's throwing everything away). She said a bunch of things, I don't remember it all. She doesn't know what she wants.

Then she said she had to go, but before she left, I told her that I'm an eternal optimist, and before she goes, she needs to set me straight or confirm what she said before. She said she wanted to work on things, then that she was confused, then a bunch of other stuff, and never gave me a straight answer if she wants to work on things. I told her I'll make that decision very easy for her. If you don't know if you want to work on things, then give up and move on.

She said she has to go home and think about things, and apologized for not giving me a straight answer, and will give me a call tomorrow with a decision. She's not sure if she's going to therapy tomorrow.

Soooo. To summarize, I put my foot down. Told her she can't date some other guy and hold onto me at the same time, and that she has to make her mind up on what she wants, or I'll make it real easy for her.

I think I broke her 'safety net', of me as the fallback if/when things don't work out with this other guy. I can forgive and forget all the hurt that she's caused, but I needed to show some self respect and set some boundaries on what I'm willing to tolerate.

Wish me luck. I just had to post to get this off my chest. She just left the house 10 minutes ago and none of my friends are awake :(

I don't think she has told you anything you didn't know before, and I don't think she is confused either, you just pressed her till she said something that gives you hope.

Give her what she wants, and let her go and deal with herself. Therapy alone is still a good idea.

At this point she will not lead nor help,so you do it..

I believe you are right saying you have taken away her back up plan,and now she is even more confused...

However,she gave you permission to date other women,which means she knows the chances of kissing and/or having sex could be an option,and she's OK with this.

Giving you permission,gives her permission.

She's opted out.

Time for you to move on,at least to start picking up the pieces and regain some degree of peace.

I agree that therapy for you will help,and also to shift the balance of power between you and your ex wife... you lead the way now.. start the process and take one step at a time towards a new beginning.

I agree with everything the others have said.

Behave with a little more independence and confidence. Stop with the continuous show of affection for her; you are only pushing her further away.

She finds it (and you) annoying and intrusive. Two more reasons to carry on with the path she has chosen.

Not to mention that you have her parents enabling her. They should have said, "Go home and figure this out on your own, you cannot stay here."

So while you think you are doing some good to get her back, you aren't. She has a nice comfortable place with her parents, who are complicit in this situation, and she is free to do as she pleases.

Get your mind on other things, force yourself to show some confidence that you can survive without her. She'll get the message when you finally stop contacting her.

THEN she might think a little differently.

Well. We had a 2 1/2 hour phone call today before therapy. I was making lots of demands, and didn't want to take any crap. I grew balls.

Now she says she wants to commit to working on the marriage, and will ditch the other guy.

I griped during today's therapy session. Saying I don't feel loved, and it's pathetic for me to be denied a hug, and I can't respect myself if that's the case. I said it's a husbands right to receive these things from his wife.

Then therapy devolved into talking about how the wife might be depressed (I think she is) and how she needs to find hobbies and activities.

Now I feel that there's momentum. The therapist called her out on nothing changing in the last 6 weeks (when I mentioned it).

I felt large and in charge, and invited the wife over to our house to watch a movie after therapy. I pulled her closer for a hug during the movie, and she started making out with me. She let me take her shirt off, and I received oral, but her pants were a 'no zone', and I semi respected that.

Then we spooned on the floor for the rest of the movie, and I'd squeeze her tight and give her a kiss on the cheek every 5 minutes or so. She'd smile and usually kiss me back at first, but after a while, stopped showing that she enjoyed it.

It's like a feedback loop. I need to feel re-assured that she enjoys being cuddled, and so I'll do it again later, and then she might seem like she doesn't enjoy it, so I want to make her feel better, so I'll give her MORE affection. Repeating the cycle. She never said anything however.

Need to go on another date with her outside the house or something every other time so that she doesn't think I'm just doing it for the physical pleasures.

Argh.

This separation thing is driving me nuts. Okay she's committed to saving the marriage.

What now? What is the end game? What's the point of the separation?

We've had time to reflect. We know what the issues are. She's going to work on trying to find hobbies and things that make her happy, and to not be as depressed. I'm going to work on my communication. We came up with a codeword 'banana' for whenever someone does something the other doesn't appreciate.

We've practiced for the big game, but the game never comes.

What's the end game here. My wife is buying a mattress to replace the airbed she's sleeping on in her parents house. I got her to agree to hang out tomorrow at her parents house since she has the day off work.

How is being apart healthy at all? We're supposed to 'find ourselves'. I know who I am, I know what makes me happy, I know what my faults are and I know how to fix them.

Just this whole stalled limbo thing. If I don't contact her at all, then I don't feel any progress has been made. She hasn't progressed at all in the 6 weeks that she's been away, and I doubt anything will be different next week, or the week after.

If I contact her too much, I'm pushing her away.

On the other hand, oxytocin and all those hormones that bring people together requires PHYSICAL contact and affection.

If I were to not contact her for 3 months, would she just wake up one day and say "hey, I'm going to move back in with my husband!'. I doubt it.

Therapy seems too short on time, and that we discuss feelings and stuff, but it doesn't feel like progress most of the time. What we discussed is quickly forgotten, and there's not really any homework for us to get back together.

If I keep pushing her to hangout, that will likely push her away, but the alternative is to drift apart. Where is the middle ground?

Separation is not necessarily a bad thing, unless it goes on too long, and becomes too comfortable. Being apart to reflect, and try to work on issues without living under the same roof can very well have positive effects, if, and I mean if, the goal is mutual between the two of you. That being to get back together and save the marriage.

I'm not getting the impression that both of you are on the same page, and your counsellor should be getting to the point where goals are on the table, so you can work out the details of how to get there.

It is also unfortunately true, that sometimes, by the time marriage counselling starts, there are too many insurmountable problems, and one or the other party, is not willing or able to overcome them.

I find it odd that she's replacing a mattress at her parents house. Sounds like one of the goals isn't to return home and tackle issues with you. She wants the comfort of her parents, and their home, and keep the marriage on simmer.

Do the two of you have any agreeable goals? A plan, or any commitments to each other to work with the therapist?

I got a very vague commitment from her. To 'work on the marriage'. But there's nothing concrete, and nothing besides 'go to therapist once a week'.

I was expecting her to be at work today, so I was making a nice corned beef dinner to invite her over. I invited her over, but the response I got is that she's mattress shopping, and won't be on this side of town today.

The only goal from the therapist for her, is to find hobbies for herself.

Frustrated, I came up with a list of questions today that I'm going to demand answers to tomorrow. I want clear goals, action plans, and something that I can see working towards. Just passing time is NOT a goal and is what's pissing me off. The mattress thing also upsets me.

Here's the list, apologies for the length.

How will you show commitment this week?

How will I show commitment this week?

What level of commitment do you need to see this week?

What level of commitment do I need to see this week?

What are we trying to accomplish by being in separate houses?

How will we know when we've accomplished those things?

What do you need before you're ready?
What do I need before I'm ready?

What do you need from me right now?
What do I need from you right now?
-Affection
-Love
-Commitment

How will you meet my needs?

How will I meet your needs?

What goals should you be working on?
-Saying Banana when I upset you
-Finding happiness (through hobbies or?? )

What goals should I be working on?
-Empathsizing
-Valuing your opinion
-Making you feel important

What's the end game. What needs to be met before we live under the same roof.

What will we work on this week?

How will we work on or practice what we've learned

What pace do we need?

How much time should we talk on the phone per week?

How much time should we hang out in person per week?

How often should we be intimate per week? How much do I need? How much do you need?

What our the intimacy boundaries?

How much non intimate time per week?

What is hurting our relationship right now?
-Intimacy with others
-Jealousy, nights out at the bar

What is helping our relationship right now?

How much time do you feel you'll need?

How will next week be different than this week?

All very valid points absolutely.

I hope that you get a commitment to change from her, and that she is seriously going to try. If she is, there is nothing on that list that cannot be accomplished.

She may be overwhelmed, in which case, maybe just introduce the list as something she can add to, or take away from, and that the list itself, can be negotiated. Have a copy for her, and maybe the therapist as well.

Also consider that, not to overwhelm her, let her know that you don't expect to accomplish everything right off, but together, by a certain time, a working list, with reasonable dates to accomplish the goals you have both decided upon.

Success will build upon success, and seeing goals actually met, and this 'meeting of the minds' to accomplish them, will really encourage more and more trying and the results will be so worth the effort.

But, the basics first. A schedule, or plan, definite goals, and a reasonable time frame.

I think you're working hard, and in the right direction.

Leave her alone, and stick to the therapy. Rushing through the process will ultimately be a disaster and you will miss a lot of things that you need to pay attention too. Making demands and expecting instant results is a recipe for confusion, and resentment.

Buddy if you don't slow down, and learn to listen, your going to rush headlong over a cliff. Not only is your logic flawed, selfish and one sided, but self serving as well.

Leave her alone to process herself, and her actions, so she can recognize the adjustments she needs to make.

Take baby steps, and pay attention, because this isn't about you and what you want, but growth, and building communications so you can get answers.

Your taking a narrow view on a bigger picture.

So the list is a bad idea for tomorrow? Trying to come up with a game plan. I haven't visited her parents house since she left 6 weeks ago.

Slow down and learn to listen to her? The only thing I'm hearing from her is that she needs to find herself and her happiness. Why that has to occur at the exclusion of me is bewildering.

Aside from the list. My original goal was to have her take some career interest tests and try to narrow down what hobbies she might be interested in, so she can try a shotgun approach of trying a bunch of new activities/hobbies and find out what she likes.

If I leave everything to her, she won't talk about relationship stuff or anything at all. Therapist said she is the pace car, but also said that the pace car is stalled.

That's what I'm talking about you making decisions for her that work for you, but not her.

Let her fix her own car, so she learns how to do it and you fix yourself and find some patience.

She isn't the only one to benefit from some hobbies it seems.

Your too pushy. Way too pushy, and its overwhelming.

So the list is a bad idea for tomorrow? Trying to come up with a game plan. I haven't visited her parents house since she left 6 weeks ago.

Slow down and learn to listen to her? The only thing I'm hearing from her is that she needs to find herself and her happiness. Why that has to occur at the exclusion of me is bewildering.

Aside from the list. My original goal was to have her take some career interest tests and try to narrow down what hobbies she might be interested in, so she can try a shotgun approach of trying a bunch of new activities/hobbies and find out what she likes.

If I leave everything to her, she won't talk about relationship stuff or anything at all. Therapist said she is the pace car, but also said that the pace car is stalled.

Hey Dusty, we all need to find our OWN happiness. If your wife finds happiness to the exclusion of you that may well be very good, because it may mean she is finding herself, but not necessarily excluding you , which is how you see it.

You don't have to BE her happiness, but you can be in her life and make her happy. Do you get the difference?

Just as an aside, if I was feeling confused and worried about my marriage, I would not appreciate my husband giving me a list of hobbies or career interests. It's much too soon for that.

Let the process take its own course - the car may be stalled, but it will fire up again.

Try and be patient.

Thank you for your replies. If I seem daft, I'm having some difficulty fully comprehending the metaphors, and some of the answers seem ambiguous.

I know that we need to find our own happiness. I define that happiness as lifestyle and activities. More or less 'hobbies'.

I know that you don't seek and base your happiness on someone else.

I'm saying, why does she need to find her hobbies/lifestyle outside of the house if that's truly the problem. I encourage her to do anything that she might enjoy. Why is finding these, and being with me mutually exclusive? She has no responsibilities at home. She can go out whenever she wants. She has 3-4 hours of MORE free time at my home per day than at her parents house (because of her longer commute to work)

The therapist suggested she take up hobbies/activities to help with her depression (She won't take pills for depression, nor has she been diagnosed, but she always seems depressed due to her lack of interest in anything).

I also feel that she hasn't had time to really 'process' or whatever because she's been spending her time with some other guy instead of working on our marriage. At least in the first week or two of the separation we were going on dates and doing things. Now when I wait week after week for therapy, and nothings different, it just makes me want to kick it in the pants.

As a side note, I'm also concerned because I do not make enough money on unemployment to pay all of the bills for the house she left since she cutoff her paycheck. I'm slowly draining my savings account, and I have 1 month left of unemployment payments (With a likely, but not guaranteed 5 month extension). Whereas before, if we were together, I could accept a job that pays $12/hr and we could get by, now I can't settle for anything less than 25$/hr, which is very difficult in this economy, so I'm stressed out.

Those are the issues you have and this is the perfect time to deal with them and resolve some of your stress. That's better than letting it ruin your relationship. Financial stress is the #1 cause of divorces. Especially for those who live beyond their means. Yes the economy is lousy, but no excuse for couples to not work together, through honest communications so they can build together.

I think your wife wants to be a mother and raise a family, and doesn't care about the economy.

Good luck with the job search. Vocational college to improve your marketable skills is a great hobby for you. Many of the schools have all kinds of financial help, and a placement service for after graduation. Check them out.

Hung out at her house for about 8 hours. Went to dinner and shopping at Walmart to pick up things for her to live. Also helped organize her bedroom and move her new bed.

Spent a majority of the time cuddling on the bed. Kept misreading signals on intimacy boundaries. I have an uncontrollable urge for affection, and then when I get rejected, I become masochistic and try again. Eventually got oral, but no sex, and that calmed me down for a few hours, until she initiated kissing, and I misread signals again, and repeated the cycle.

Last night she pointed out two possible incompatibilities. One is that I'm normally affectionately cold. She'll start taking my pants off while I'm doing something in the kitchen, and I'll reject her advances. I'd pretty much reject most sexual advances until bedtime. I don't know why this is. During the day time, if she wants to have a prolonged kissing session, my nose will plug up, and I'll feel like I'm suffocating, and stop.

If you were to ask me, I'd say I wouldn't mind being as sexually active as she wants me to be, but I don't know why I behaved the way I did in the past.

A second incompatibility point is small talk, conversation. She doesn't talk as much as I'd like to, so to fill the dead air, I'll talk about my interests. Or perhaps I'll pick up a new hobby, and I'll have a one track mind. I started doing RC planes, and that's ALL I could talk about. When I was working, that's what I'd do with my coworkers too that sat next to me. I know it bores them, but I felt like I couldn't help but talk about my passions.

She thinks I need to be with someone who would appreciate my passions and my need to talk about them endlessly. I think that hardly anyone actually appreciates the amount of time I spend talking about those technical subjects, and that I just need to learn to be more sociable.

Me always talking about technical stuff hurts our small talk. I feel like I can never say anything interesting to my wife, but all day all I read is geek news or do geeky stuff, so I feel like I have nothing else to talk about.

Well find something else to talk about ! Sheesh.

Roger roger. Spoke with my best friend, and he agreed, I need to develop social skills so I can work on talking about other stuff.

Sent the wife the list on last Thursday and went over it. She couldn't answer any of the questions, and I didn't push her.

Saw her on Friday, and now it's Monday. Had a brief phonecall with her today about 10 minutes ago. Told her I'm going to bring up goals in the next therapy session. She's not comfortable with setting goals, or having goals. It's the only thing I'm really feeling we're lacking right now, aside from continuing to dig up stuff (Which is good). There's the personal goals which I'm aware of (stuff we individually need to work on), and then the relationship goals and other stuff that would have a rough timeline, etc.


She doesn't want to discuss serious stuff on the phone still (although she will), since it turns into 3 hour phone calls (I agree), and she feels I don't 'get it' sometimes. I think I'll just have to leave that stuff for therapy perhaps, although the goal in the first few sessions of therapy was to build the communication skills so that we could hash stuff up constructively. At least in therapy there is a definite timebox.


What is the endgame here? The stuff she's brought up isn't unreasonable for me to change, and she's bringing up valid character flaws that I should work on regardless if we'll still be married. I always see it as, state issues, address issues then get back together? She doesn't feel it's as simple as that however.

Roger roger. Spoke with my best friend, and he agreed, I need to develop social skills so I can work on talking about other stuff.

Sent the wife the list on last Thursday and went over it. She couldn't answer any of the questions, and I didn't push her.

Saw her on Friday, and now it's Monday. Had a brief phonecall with her today about 10 minutes ago. Told her I'm going to bring up goals in the next therapy session. She's not comfortable with setting goals, or having goals. It's the only thing I'm really feeling we're lacking right now, aside from continuing to dig up stuff (Which is good). There's the personal goals which I'm aware of (stuff we individually need to work on), and then the relationship goals and other stuff that would have a rough timeline, etc.


She doesn't want to discuss serious stuff on the phone still (although she will), since it turns into 3 hour phone calls (I agree), and she feels I don't 'get it' sometimes. I think I'll just have to leave that stuff for therapy perhaps, although the goal in the first few sessions of therapy was to build the communication skills so that we could hash stuff up constructively. At least in therapy there is a definite timebox.


What is the endgame here? The stuff she's brought up isn't unreasonable for me to change, and she's bringing up valid character flaws that I should work on regardless if we'll still be married. I always see it as, state issues, address issues then get back together? She doesn't feel it's as simple as that however.

Dusty, are you an engineer? Because you're approaching this whole thing like a project to be completed in a certain time-frame. I can almost see you on Microsoft Project planning the whole thing and printing out the Gant charts.

It's really admirable to set objectives, and sure, you want to know broadly where the counselling might be heading, but I feel like you're overdoing it. You've decided she's your project and you're going to bring her back into the marriage come hell or high water.

Goals are good but I suspect that this is not what she wants from you. She wants you to connect with her. Goals, hobbies, objectives, key performance indicators are not the language of love.

If I recall, her issue with you in the marriage was that you could not connect with her at an intimate level or empathize with her. I don't hear you saying anything about reconnecting with her as a person or establishing intimacy.

I think that you need to be doing things together and getting to like each other as people again - listening to each other and laughing together. Perhaps back off on the sex for a while.

Instead of regaling her with lists of hobbies and goals, why don't you go away for a weekend? I know that you haven't got much money, but can't you go camping somewhere gorgeous or stay in a funny little motel in some cute little town? Instead of sitting at home and trying to get into her pants why don't you go to a movie, out for dinner, go for a walk, a drive whatever.

Try to be together without expectation - who knows what the endgame is? It's actually NOT important. The PROCESS is much more important. If you keep focusing on the outcome you'll miss what's happening in between.

LOL. Yes I am an engineer! That cracked me up.

Go away for the weekend with her or by myself?

I think my mindset needs to be "Small talk, happy talk" until we can figure out constructive timeboxed methods of doing serious talk.

We didn't end up doing the hobby list thing.

Still need to find the strength to hang out with her at a house without trying to get all over her. (Although she initiated the intimacy). It's unspoken, but I think it loses me trust and discourages her from hanging out in the future.

I guess goals is wrong then. I guess what I'm really looking for is some way for her to show that she's working or committed on working on things, something outside of therapy sessions.

LOL. Yes I am an engineer! That cracked me up.

Go away for the weekend with her or by myself?

I think my mindset needs to be "Small talk, happy talk" until we can figure out constructive timeboxed methods of doing serious talk.

We didn't end up doing the hobby list thing.

Still need to find the strength to hang out with her at a house without trying to get all over her. (Although she initiated the intimacy). It's unspoken, but I think it loses me trust and discourages her from hanging out in the future.

I guess goals is wrong then. I guess what I'm really looking for is some way for her to show that she's working or committed on working on things, something outside of therapy sessions.

No I meant going away together - I was suggesting things that would help to reestablish talking about small talk stuff. Heavens, why would I suggest you stay somewhere like a funny little motel on your own? LOL! Can you try and have some fun together?

Goal are OK - just keep it in context that it's the process not the outcome that's at issue here. Remember, you can't control her process, you can only manage your own. Work on yourself and let her do what she needs to do, in her own time.

Need to get into that mindset. I remember the quote from a friend, in a buddha voice, "Life is a journey, not a destination (Or race?), enjoy the journey"

Me and the wife had even mentioned a similar thing regarding the last few mini vacations we've had. I'm so hung up on finding things to DO during vacation (like trips up to Seattle) that I neglect enjoying the journey.

For example, my friends were going to Taco Bell and invited me to go along. I declined, since I didn't want any food, and so I figured it was a waste of time. But then I realized, that who knows what might happen on the way there, that it could be an adventure, and that I should go so that I can enjoy the trip.

I don't know if the wife would be comfortable spending the night with me somewhere. I had brought up camping on the coast in the government owned cabins. It's kind of very cold and wet here in the northwest.

Could you elaborate on "just keep it in context that it's the process not the outcome that's at issue here. Remember, you can't control her process, you can only manage your own."?

Need to get into that mindset. I remember the quote from a friend, in a buddha voice, "Life is a journey, not a destination (Or race?), enjoy the journey"

Me and the wife had even mentioned a similar thing regarding the last few mini vacations we've had. I'm so hung up on finding things to DO during vacation (like trips up to Seattle) that I neglect enjoying the journey.

For example, my friends were going to Taco Bell and invited me to go along. I declined, since I didn't want any food, and so I figured it was a waste of time. But then I realized, that who knows what might happen on the way there, that it could be an adventure, and that I should go so that I can enjoy the trip.

I don't know if the wife would be comfortable spending the night with me somewhere. I had brought up camping on the coast in the government owned cabins. It's kind of very cold and wet here in the northwest.

Could you elaborate on "just keep it in context that it's the process not the outcome that's at issue here. Remember, you can't control her process, you can only manage your own."?

Well, what you seem to be talking about is
looking for is some way for her to show that she's working or committed on working on things, something outside of therapy sessions. That's you trying to control the process that she's going through - you want her to 'show you' that she's committed. I understand that! But, in the end she has to do it her way, not your way and you can't make her 'show' you.

She's obviously hesitant and reluctant at some level. I suggest that she'd like to see you working on yourself not her.

The process will be different for both of you and it's understanding what's happening NOW that's important rather than thinking about where you want to be.

It is Buddhist in concept - you can waste a lot of thought and energy thinking about the future, and forget about this moment, 'The Now' (as E. Tolle might call it).

Welp.

Didn't contact the wife at all today. She contacted me over IM, and then called me on the phone. Said she doesn't want to go to therapy tomorrow, and wants a divorce and is writing up some letter to me to explain things, which she hasn't sent yet.

So I guess that's it, and that explains why she doesn't really want to work on anything.

I appreciate all your insight and comfort that you've provided me for the past 2 months, and it's time for me to move on with my life.

Things seemed kind of fishy, and as her dad told me, 'her actions speak louder than words'.

I hope she's happy with the new guy.

Kind of numb right now. I don't hurt or anything. Although when this stuff hits me, I do kind of just go into shock, and then it hits me later. On the other hand, I've been mentally prepared for this for well over a month.

Welp.

Didn't contact the wife at all today. She contacted me over IM, and then called me on the phone. Said she doesn't want to go to therapy tomorrow, and wants a divorce and is writing up some letter to me to explain things, which she hasn't sent yet.

So I guess that's it, and that explains why she doesn't really want to work on anything.

I appreciate all your insight and comfort that you've provided me for the past 2 months, and it's time for me to move on with my life.

Things seemed kinda fishy, and as her dad told me, 'her actions speak louder than words'.

I hope she's happy with the new guy.

Kinda numb right now. I don't hurt or anything. Although when this stuff hits me, I do kinda just go into shock, and then it hits me later. On the other hand, I've been mentally prepared for this for well over a month.

So sorry Dusty - no wonder she was half hearted about everything. Let us know when you get the letter. It will be interesting to see what she says.

Here's the letter. I called her afterwards for about 10 minutes. Saying that we didn't learn to effectively communicate so that we could provide each others needs. She still thinks it's unreasonable or impossible for others to change in the manners that she wants. I think it's an utter crap letter, but here you go.

Dear Joe,

I feel very badly to be writing you al letter instead of speaking with you in person, but I feel so overwhelmed and helpless when we are face-to-face. I know you have no malicious intentions but I feel this is the best way that I can stay objective and say what I need to say.

When we decided to get married I wish we would have discussed things more thoroughly. I wish we would have waited and established goals then, like family and careers. I had no doubts, but I was too young to really understand my own needs and life goals. Over the years I have learned to put my needs and goals aside because I loved you. My only goal became making you happy and helping you achieve your goals, no matter how different that was from my goals or happiness. I found that compromise was very nearly impossible much of the time, and it seemed to just be easier to 'give in' than to stand up for myself. Quiely my own needs went unfulfilled, and I could only think of so many ways to ask for a hug or for a caring shoulder before I realized that it just wasn't in the cards. It festered into resentment, jealousy, and indifference.

I'm sorry I let it get so bad. I kept hoping that somehow we would transform into one of those happy couples who know each other so well they finish eachother's sentences and hold eachother's hand as they stroll down the street. The kind that stare longingly into eachother's eyes and give each other subtle smiles throughout the day. But years later I grew to hate those couples, because I knew deep down that that would never be us. We have never had the deep emotional connection that I now realize is so essential to me. The bonds of friendship that hold true when the rest of our lives crumble. The security to boldly face any challenge armed with the knowledge that you are not alone. That you have a best friend who loves and understands you. That they will always have your back no matter what.

I think that everyone deserves that kind of companionship. It has taken me a long time to realize that I deserve it too. That despite whatever brash decisions I made as a youth, I don't have to live with them forever if it doesn't make me happy. I don't have to feel like a failure because honestly, I know I gave it my all. And its nobody's fault that it just doesn't fit me anymore. That's what humans do. They grow up.

For what its worth, you were always a good Husband. You did everything you could to please me. You never placed unreasonable standards upon me, never asked very much of me. You were a good provider and a stable partner. I never had to worry about safety or loyalty. Even now I feel very lucky that you have been a part of my life. I know in my heart that you will be a good father. If you invest one tenth of the dedication to your family as you do your hobbies, I know that you will overcome all your anxieties about fatherhood. If you want it, you WILL be a better parrent that the ones you had.

I hope that you will continue to grow emotionally and socially. You have so much to offer the world. I truly mean that. You are the smartest person I have ever met. Sometimes I wondered what you could possibly see in me because you were just sooo much more advanced than I was. The focus and dediciation you have when you put your mind to something really is unique. From fish and plants, to working planes and sophisticated radio technology, you are a very diverse individual. You also have an impressive set of morals, better than any man I know. Sometimes I felt ashamed that I was not as morally defined as you. And it really, honestly did not bother me at all that you had gained some weight. You carry it very well and you have such sexy physique. When you grew your beard long, I missed seeing your face, because you are so very handsome. You have always been very generous and loyal to your friends and they are lucky to have you.

I know the consequences of my actions and what I am giving up. Its scary and overwhelming and uncomfortable. But I know that I need to go out and experience the world to truly know myself. That I have formed many different types of friendships but I have not found the enduring friendship to sustain me through life's darkest moments. And if I don't muster up the courage to seek happiness, I will spend the rest of my life regreting it. So it is better that we end the marriage while we are still young and have so little established. I have no intentions of leading you around like a puppy, or stringing up false hopes in an attempt to keep you like a fall-back plan. I just wish so badly that we had some thread of friendship worth holding onto. But it is what it is and I understand and respect your need to move on the best way you can. You know how I can be reached if someday you change your mind.

I am sorry for all the pain I caused you, and I wish only the very best for you.
Veronica

Hey.I thought it was a pretty good letter,thought out and even I got what she was trying to say..

We can only post advice of what we see on the screen,and many times its only one side of the story...

Reading her letter,I see a broader view and whatever has occurred and its no comfort right now,but she has made her case clear and what her intentions are and how she perceived her married life...

I'm sorry its over,you tried,you didn't fail,you reached the conclusion.

I am sorry that you're feeling angry and upset Dusty - in some ways you have a right to be. Can I ask you though, when you're feeling less angry, not to dismiss your wife's letter as utter crap?

They are her feelings, and for what it's worth, they are real to her. There are always two sides to a story, and as Red says, it's interesting to hear hers. In my first post to you on this thread I said:


There is a watershed moment in all of our lives, when we realize that the life we're living isn't quite right and that we have contributed to that situation. This is yours.

There are really big lessons here for both of you, but for you in particular. It seems neither of you knew how to connect with or listen to each other, You were lost in your hobbies and projects, she was who knows where.

There are always good things that come out of bad situations, if we allow it. Keep working on yourself - make yourself the project for a while and get to understand who you are. If you can take this into another relationship you will attract the person you desire and be much happier.

It's always very hard to be the person on the receiving end of a letter like this.

I agree, there was, and still is a disconnect. You're right, the letter itself wasn't crap.

I wanted to hear more in her letter on why 'this will never work'. Since it felt to me that these were the steps

1) Wife leaves
2) Wife identifies problem
3) Wife doesn't give opportunity to address problems
4) Wife completely leaves

I felt the counseling was an opportunity to identify and work on problems, and we'd come out ahead. I felt it was crap because, and I asked her this, "Why do people go to counseling if it isn't to change?", and I also asked "What do you think people mean when they say that marriages take work".

I think she was just too far gone by the time therapy started, and she had already made up here mind. I also think she never did stop dating that other guy, and I think I'm being compared to him. Part of her decision was because last time we kissed, 'she didn't feel anything'.

Oh well.

I agree, there was, and still is a disconnect. You're right, the letter itself wasn't crap.

I wanted to hear more in her letter on why 'this will never work'. Since it felt to me that these were the steps

1) Wife leaves
2) Wife identifies problem
3) Wife doesn't give opportunity to address problems
4) Wife completely leaves

I felt the counseling was an opportunity to identify and work on problems, and we'd come out ahead. I felt it was crap because, and I asked her this, "Why do people go to counseling if it isn't to change?", and I also asked "What do you think people mean when they say that marriages take work".

I think she was just too far gone by the time therapy started, and she had already made up here mind. I also think she never did stop dating that other guy, and I think i'm being compared to him. Part of her decision was becasue last time we kissed, 'she didn't feel anything'.

Oh well.

People often use counselling to help them decide to separate rather than stay together... and you're right, counselling is often a last resort and people go too late.

It was too late, and I'm really sorry because I can see that you tried.

This is not the end, but the beginning of a new chapter in your life. While I am sorry for your loss, its only temporary, and after acceptance and healing comes freedom from regrets.

You wife has decided to end the relationship with you because that's what she wanted to do from the beginning. She probably needed the confimation from the counseling to see if both of you were really compatible. From the most of the things you said, everything you said is almost like you were analyzing your marriage and didn't seem like you were in it (you wrote it like a third person). However, you did talk about some intimacy issues. You don't like to be spontaneous when it comes to sex, like an engineer set of mind. You don't know why that is. At this time, I agree with everyone that you should continue the counseling by yourself and figure out why you have the intimacy issue. I also agree with some people that your wife seems little spoiled and have some intimacy issue as well, but she will have to work on that herself. If at the end she doesn't come back to you, find someone else who is much like you.

Well. Decided to check on this 6 weeks later.

Still separated. She's holding off on the divorce until I get another job so that I can carry over my health insurance, but we're still going through with the divorce.

For some reason she begged to still be 'friends' after all this, which I can't see myself doing and refused, although I'll be more than friendly throughout the divorce stuff, but if I remained friends, I'd still try to get back with her, and couldn't respect myself.

I was crazy for the first 3 months that the separation was going on until I had closure. It occupied every thought of my waking mind. Wake up, think about it, sit in my computer chair and think about it all day, try to sleep and think about it. Now I hardly ever think about it unless I see her sign online or if she calls me to talk about the divorce business stuff.

I still cry occasionally. Probably once a week or two. If she comes by to pick up stuff, or I talk to her on the phone. I told her if she talks to me online, a part of me dies inside, but I don't have the heart to tell her to go away.

Been dating the last two weeks, and that's made me pretty happy. I'm pretty happy overall, making lots of new friends...

I guess the lesson learned from all of this, is that 'I need time and space' means they are cheating on you, and don't fool yourself by thinking that they'll stop.

Threads merged

I posted before. My wife and I had been separated for about 6 months. She lives an hour away at her parents house, and commutes to her work which is 5 minutes away from where I live. Contact between us is almost exclusively online IM, 1-3 times a week. Except for tonight, we haven't really seen each other in person for 4 months.

She wants to give it another try, but isn't comfortable with just 'moving back in'.

I'm wondering if there's a good intermediate step that can help the transition to getting her back home?

She feels there's still issues between us. They're communication issues, and we've talked online and on the phone endlessly about them and 'yes, I'll work on that', but I feel that there's no way to implement/show the change if you're not interacting face to face in a casual, everyday setting.

She said she's comfortable with doing 'date' like things. Like go to the store to get groceries together, or go to dinner, or go on walks, but she will definitely not visit the house.

I feel that these 'date' type things are inadequate for showing/implementing the change, as I'm going to be on my best behavior, and be kind of out of my element, 'dating' my wife, and I feel the only solution is for her to just move in...

Help?

P.S. She refuses to go to counseling. We did that for the first 5-6 weeks that she moved out, and I also feel that our lack of contact outside of counseling made it pretty useless.

First this will probably be merged with your previous thread: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marriage/do-you-still-no-contact-when-your-wife-needs-time-space-her-parents-402143.html.

DD, you mentioned in someone else's thread (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marriage/sign-disrespect-marriage-445166.html) that you suffer from sexomia. Have you been to the doctor for that (from previous research, I do know that it is treatable)? Is it another factor in your wife not wanting to live in the same house for right now?

I think IF you do continue on the path back to living together that you need to take it slow. BOTH of you need to agree that you are going to let the past rest in peace. Rebuild from the foundation up. Start at dating.

Sexsomnia is not a factor.

I mentioned sexsomnia to my sleep doctor, but it was nothing more than a curiosity. It doesn't really bother the wife. It only bothered her once when we didn't have sex for 3 weeks, and then I had sex in my sleep. She felt that my body wanted sex, just my mind didn't want sex with HER. I'm on testosterone treatment for that now... Sexsomnia has had no impact on our relationship or our situation. It's just a curiosity thing, since she accepts and knows that there's nothing I can do about it. (Except meds, but whatever, it happens every 2-8 weeks, not enough to be worried).

The majority of the time that we spend talking, she's just bringing up old stuff. So we should just drop all that talk, and then address issues in our relationship as they occur?

Part of me was concerned that the past stuff is seen as 'emotional trauma', and the only way to heal that stuff is to re-hash it as many times as possible until it no longer hurts.

I'm not sure which path to take. Talk or don't talk about the stuff.

The issues aren't major, just a collective bunch of minor things. Like sometimes my mind drifts, and I forget to hold the door for her or that I don't like tipping at every restaurant or that I make crude jokes sometimes... Nothing that I would really consider 'emotional trauma', but it's collectively this pile of stuff that she apparently needs to get past...

If I were talking to her, I would tell her to let the small stuff go. Write it out on slips of paper and burn them if it helps. Holding on to them is a way of keeping a distance between you and shows that there is something that she isn't dealing with. Whether it is between the two of you or buried deep in her mind and is associated with something not related to your relationship, I don't know.

Sometimes, it seems easier to build a wall than to tear it down. That's why I suggest both of you agreeing to start over from the dating stage as though you just met yesterday. It gives you both a chance to move past the old hurts and to show each other that there have been changes.

Does she want to be with you or her new improved version of what she wants you to be?

Improvement about communication is vitally important but nitpicking and judging every "flaw" she sees in you is counterproductive.

You need to both have realistic expectations of what you want from the marriage and what is doable and what are deal breakers.

Choose your battles wisely and have a clear plan of what your goals are as a couple.

I see a big red flag when you reduce her concerns as something unimportant. That usually means your not listening very well, and what you see as a pile minor annoyances, is one big pile of do-do to her. Its serious enough for you to be separated for sure?

Don't make your eagerness to have your wife back make you overlook what she is actually telling you, or make promises you don't intend to keep.

Reestablishing honest communications has to have compromise and a willingness to work together. There are no short cuts or medium steps to take and get this done right.

I personally think your communications have to come first here, before you get back into the same rut that got you separated. Unfortunately your real problem is she doubts your change and wants to come home, but is fearful of the same thing again, plus she is probably getting family pressure also.

I think through this dating process you have to make her really believe you have changed, and its for real, and long lasting.

She must also do her part also, as its never a one sided story, and you both have to be willing to adjust to each other. You have your faults and they are many, but she has a few issues also.

You caving in to all her demands will not get her home, and keep her there.

Another update. Another month later, another level deeper into hell I go.

The wife and I had agreed to do 'date like things'. We went out to dinner a few times, went shopping together and she came over to my house and played video games. She even kissed me a few times.. Things looked great. We had a marriage counseling session scheduled and we both went, although she just went so that she could schedule her own therapy, which a month later, she still hasn't gone to yet. The conclusion from the session was that 'first things first' she needs to work on herself first before she can work on being in a relationship... The guy she left me for ended up knocking up his own wife, and my wife ended up breaking up with him about a month ago.. Things looked good for me.. She even took me out on my birthday..

After she had kissed me a few times on my birthday, I went to give her a bearhug. She never likes my bearhugs, and always says 'no', but I hugged her anyway. The next day in therapy, she tells the therapist I attacked her.. I was shocked. A few days later she said something to the effect that she doesn't feel safe around me alone. I don't even touch her unless she initiates something. I told her that if that's how she feels about me, then I don't want anything to do with her. She gave me a confusing answer, as she always does. Full of metaphors and vague ambiguous terms.. The conclusion at the end of that was that she wants us to continue what we were doing..

About 6 weeks ago, I told the wife that it will be ~6 months since I've had sex, and that I haven't been intimate with my girlfriend of 2 months yet, but once I hit that 6 month mark one way or the other I'm going to have sex again. I wanted to give her a choice on whether she wants to be the person I break my celibacy with... The wife seemed unwilling to help, so we left it at that. I've been having sex with my girlfriend since, and after the fact, my wife has told me that she is happy because now 'we're even', and that I can't hold me being the only faithful one above her head, and that she is relieved...

Well, as it turns out, my girlfriend, who's only had two partners in her life, the last one over two years ago, and she's a nurse, had a genital herpes 2 outbreak at the time we had sex, so lo and behold I now have herpes 2... I was devastated for a week. Things were going so well between me and my wife, I'm getting her into therapy, we're talking about action plans, and now this... I spent Valentines Day in the STD clinic getting tested. Fun times.

I was so scared about the impact this would have on my reconciliation attempts with my wife. We had two more dates planned, for my birthday and the day before. I hadn't gotten my test results yet, so I didn't want to say anything, but I had a pretty good idea that I had herpes. I just told my wife that I'm depressed over something I can't talk about, and tried to enjoy our dates as much as possible...

A few days later after the dates, I finally get the results, and I tell my wife. I told her I wanted to give her a few days to digest it, because I wanted to know if it was a dealbreaker for her, so I could spare myself the grief and move on, rather than find out later that it's a dealbreaker...

The wife seemed positive about it. She never gave me a straight answer on dealbreaker, but seemed to indicate that it wasn't. She never can answer yes or no questions with a straight answer and insults me for not understanding when I try to clarify. At first she felt guilty for putting me in the situation where I'd seek out sex from elsewhere, then she felt angry that I shouldn't have told her, because then if things don't work out, she thinks I'll blame it on the herpes...

Now my wife doesn't go online anymore and rarely answers her phone. I've kept all conversations for the last 2-3 weeks light and fairly short, just talking about how our week went, etc... When she does answer her phone, she doesn't sound upset, or like she's been avoiding me, but she never returns my voicemails, and the frequency at which she doesn't answer her phones has me believe that she is avoiding me..

I even told her a week or two ago that I was afraid that she was avoiding me, and she didn't indicate that she was, but I still have the nagging feeling.. I only try to call once or twice a week now.

I've spoken to my girlfriend about my situation, that I am still trying to get back with my wife, and she accepts my situation, she doesn't like it, but we still hang out and go on dates however I'm not very satisfied with that relationship... I find myself walking on eggshells, and even carefully selecting my words to be as positive as possible, she still manages to twist everything I say into something negative, and then get mad at me for it.. There's no satisfying this woman.. She's all right looking, but I wouldn't want her to mother my children. I guess I'm staying in this relationship because I can't in good faith enter into another one, and don't want to be alone, so we're just 'casual dating' now.

I live in the largest city in my state, and I've looked at the herpes dating sites, and there's not a lot of people to choose from on there... Whereas pre-herpes I bet I could have met someone as good or better than my wife, with the limited selection available for herpes dating, I realize that you're pretty much stuck with only a handful of people to choose from, good luck finding an 'ideal match'... My other friend who is 50 now got herpes when he was 18 from his first girlfriend, and never dated again... I'm terrified of not being able to find another relationship as good as the one I had with my wife...

If your wife asked me for advice, I would be the one telling her to have nothing to do with you until she had finally gotten her act together.

Then she could see you for what you are, and make a choice. And that would hopefully be to leave you alone.

For you though, despite my sympathies at the beginning, I see you have taken the most destructive path possible, and are no where near the honest, trustworthy, person you need to be. Events have brought out the worst in you, and will get even worse, unless you get out of this selfish need for attention, and control, that is degrading you as a person.

To be specific is a girlfriend on the side who gives you herpes, and straight out lying to your wife, and using the girlfriend to manipulate your wife. This is totally unacceptable behavior, in my book.

You are disgusting, selfish, and dishonest, and blind to your own idiocy, that you can't see that your drowning in your own sh1t, instead of rising above a bad situation!

You have a long way to go, and a lot of work to do, to improve yourself, and be a fit partner for a horses a$$.

Sorry guy, even with therapy, your proving yourself to be the worst you can be.

?? I haven't lied to anyone. I started dating in good faith when my wife and I agreed to divorce. Three months after that decision I met my girlfriend. My wife comes back into the picture and changes her mind on divorce. I tell the girlfriend. My wife comes back a month later and changes her mind on divorce again, I tell the girlfriend.

I am remorseful for putting my girlfriend in a bad situation.

I started up on personal therapy again about 2 weeks ago, but I haven't figured out much to talk about there. If you could clarify a bit on my flaws you're seeing, I can bring that into Wednesdays session...

Tell your therapist the truth, the whole truth, not just nit pick your flaws.


I am remorseful for putting my girlfriend in a bad situation.

But you keep her in the bad situation? That's not remorse, that's pure selfish, and honesty doesn't change that.

I think there might be some miscommunication.

When I told the girlfriend. I told her, we both have herpes, the dating scene is hard, I enjoy your company, if you enjoy my company, then we can spend time together instead of being alone, but I'm unable to offer more than that in terms of commitment, etc.


I felt bad for the situation that she ended up in, but I don't feel I did anything morally wrong. I can't control my heart. She asked me when we first started dating if I had feelings for my wife, and I said that I still do.

I'm not sure where you see that I lied to my wife.

I'll try to get more input on the attention and control from the therapist.. I wish she'd offer more criticism than just being a listening ear. Last discussions I've had with her about the wife three weeks ago we concluded that I need to stop the heavy talk and pressuring on the wife, and either not contact her, or if I do contact her, to just keep it light. Since I'm unable to bring myself to not contact her, I've been focusing my energy on maintaining conversations light. Talking about her sick cat mostly, with some talk about college, and hobbies. The last three weeks I haven't stepped outside of the bounds of light conversation, and every conversation was pleasant, and I ended the calls before they dragged on too long. The only 'control' that I've been imposing is just trying to contact her..

Let me be clear then. You will never focus on what's really important with the distractions of a wife, girlfriend, and herpes. Does she know that she runs a risk if you do have sex?

How did I lie to my wife? Just to be clear, my girlfriend is the one who gave me herpes.

Yes. We talked about treatment options. Statistics per year of transmitting it with various treatments/methods. How it can affect childbirth, etc. 8% chance with nothing. 4% chance on antivirals, 2% chance per year with antivirals and condoms. Luckily we live a few miles away from one of the top herpes centers in the country where they do the trials of the new vaccines and other treatment.

Wife finally returned my voicemail today on her lunch. She was out in the woods all weekend. I had a 104.2F (40.1C) fever on Friday and tried calling her over the weekend to discuss health issues.

I still have no idea what the really important issues are to focus on. My life consists of job hunting, hobbies, friends and 1-3 times a week having a brief conversation with my wife at night.

While I'm sure your advice makes sense to you, it doesn't compute with me. I appreciate the help, but most of the advice I get seems like fortune cookie speak. Proper relationship behavior and marriage issues might be second nature to you, but until we turned into adults, my wife and I were both social outcasts, myself living with a single mother, they don't teach long term relationship dynamics in school, so I'm not the most well-informed person.